BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - Part 304

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]514417[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]513845[/split]

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm not going to bring CW into this only to say that it's core story line falls completely apart on any level of analysis (for obvious reasons of needing to fit into a specific template) whereas that is absolutely not the case in BvS.

I've read your thoughts on CW, and your levels of hypocrisy are through the roof.

But... I wouldn't expect anything different. You're a rabid defender of Snyder's movie, with absolutely no desire for any kind of critical thinking towards it whatsoever. To you, it's faultless. No movie is faultless, and your refusal to see anything wrong with it pretty much invalidates any of your arguments. You're like a religious zealot.

I guess at least you're consistent.

 

[nogster]

The amount of illogical, poorly written and awful plot machinations in this film is mindboggling.
I will elaborate just on the 3rd act for this post.

1. Lex summons Superman to him and tells him to kill Batman or Martha dies. While in the midst of bringing Doomsday to life.
Why did Lex want Superman to kill Batman?
What threat was Batman? Or was he expecting Batman to kill Superman?
If the latter, why was he resurrecting Doomsday regardless?

2. Why didn't Superman talk things out with Batman? The reasoning for their fight was so poorly done. Esspecially on Superman's part. I mean really. He went to fight and kill Batman cause Lex had his mother? Why didn't he just fly straight to where she was kept and rescue her. Don't try and tell me he would not know where she was when he can hear everything and was conditioned to "listen to her heartbeat". [MOS]. Nor can you use the "They will kill her if a rescue is attempted" because they sure as hell knew someone was attempting a rescue. what with the direct violent assault where she was being held.

3. Why would Superman agree and allow this violent vigilante who only a moment prior was on the verge of slaying him go and save his own Mother? This was ridiculous and was the straw that broke the camels back for me in regards to the film's poor reasoning.
How can he possibly trust Batman to complete such a personal and urgent task? when he could do it far quicker and more efficiently.
Then it is not even mentioned when they meet up again. [As far as I can remember]. Absolutely ridiculous writing.

4. Why would Batman lead Doomsday to an area in the city that was more susceptible to disaster and potential death than the abandoned island Doomsday was on. It would of made far more sense to go and pick up the Spear and bring it to the fight than the other way around.

5. Why did Superman have to die? This was awfully executed in the fight. Why did Superman have to get the spear and how did he know he was going to die? Why the sacrifice when it could of been so easily avoided by some communication with his allies.

When Superman died, I felt nothing. NOTHING. It was so poorly executed. It was so unnecessary.
And then the film went on for another 10 minutes, trying desperately to tug at my heartstrings and feel heartbreak. Only for the completely obvious to happen and for Superman to not really be dead. How the writers thought that this was going to work I have no idea.

I believe the answers to all my questions above and why the reasoning, logic and execution of the story was so poor and divisive is because they had action set piece storyboards thought out before they had an actual script. The joining of the dots in the story and script came second to the action set pieces and visual ideas.

I have said it numerous times.
This film would have to be the most disappointing movie I have ever seen.

 

[Jaxon]

The amount of illogical, poorly written and awful plot machinations in this film is mindboggling.
I will elaborate just on the 3rd act for this post.

1. Lex summons Superman to him and tells him to kill Batman or Martha dies. While in the midst of bringing Doomsday to life.
Why did Lex want Superman to kill Batman?
What threat was Batman? Or was he expecting Batman to kill Superman?
If the latter, why was he resurrecting Doomsday regardless?

2. Why didn't Superman talk things out with Batman? The reasoning for their fight was so poorly done. Esspecially on Superman's part. I mean really. He went to fight and kill Batman cause Lex had his mother? Why didn't he just fly straight to where she was kept and rescue her. Don't try and tell me he would not know where she was when he can hear everything and was conditioned to "listen to her heartbeat". [MOS]. Nor can you use the "They will kill her if a rescue is attempted" because they sure as hell knew someone was attempting a rescue. what with the direct violent assault where she was being held.

3. Why would Superman agree and allow this violent vigilante who only a moment prior was on the verge of slaying him go and save his own Mother? This was ridiculous and was the straw that broke the camels back for me in regards to the film's poor reasoning.
How can he possibly trust Batman to complete such a personal and urgent task? when he could do it far quicker and more efficiently.
Then it is not even mentioned when they meet up again. [As far as I can remember]. Absolutely ridiculous writing.

4. Why would Batman lead Doomsday to an area in the city that was more susceptible to disaster and potential death than the abandoned island Doomsday was on. It would of made far more sense to go and pick up the Spear and bring it to the fight than the other way around.

5. Why did Superman have to die? This was awfully executed in the fight. Why did Superman have to get the spear and how did he know he was going to die? Why the sacrifice when it could of been so easily avoided by some communication with his allies.

When Superman died, I felt nothing. NOTHING. It was so poorly executed. It was so unnecessary.
And then the film went on for another 10 minutes, trying desperately to tug at my heartstrings and feel heartbreak. Only for the completely obvious to happen and for Superman to not really be dead. How the writers thought that this was going to work I have no idea.

I believe the answers to all my questions above and why the reasoning, logic and execution of the story was so poor and divisive is because they had action set piece storyboards thought out before they had an actual script. The joining of the dots in the story and script came second to the action set pieces and visual ideas.

I have said it numerous times.
This film would have to be the most disappointing movie I have ever seen.

Sweet, it's Jaxon time;

1) Lex: "Do you know the oldest lie in America senator, that power can be innocent". Without going into the entirety of Lex's motivation at it's core is that he can't believe the world is accepting of Superman when his view of the world is that anything that is all powerful can't be all good. And like everyone on this forum, goes out to prove to the world that he is right and we are wrong. Superman kills Batman, he is right, and the world sees (all powerful, not all good). Batman kills Superman, he is right, and the world sees (all good, but not all powerful).

Why Doomsday? Because he doesn't really think Batman will win, and he needs a contingency for Superman in that case. Even though he tricks Batman into the fight by arming him with the tools to stand a chance he really doesn't think that Batman could possibly win.

2) Superman reasoning: Superman tries to reason, as he does Batman launches attacks on him and starts jeering him, so Superman decides to subdue him first (he is running out of time quickly and realises Batman is not up for talking this out) but kryptonite is introduced pretty quickly into the fight and then it's all gloves off.


3) Batman tells Superman he needs to go and stop what's happening at the scout ship (obviously a Superman job) and Batman so distraught with the way he has acted honours a promise to a man he know realises is not the monster, and Batman starts down a better path. I don't need to explain the Martha moment again you can read that on any page.

4) WW: "why did you lead him back to the city"
Batman: "The port is abandoned. There's a weapon here that can kill it."
Superman and Wonder Woman are not present when Batman makes the decision to lead him closer to the spear.

5) Superman had to die to make this world fully appreciate his motivations, where doubt and anger at his existence and motives around the globe were growing. It was the right call for him to get the spear and end Doomsday quickly. He didn't know he would die, but he knew it was highly likely and completes his arc from Kal-el to Superman.
When the trinity are first together he says "it's a creature from another world, my world." (this is Kal-El speaking). A few minutes later with spear nearby he says to Lois "This is my world. You are my world." (this is Superman speaking).

 

[dark_b]

Jaxon
1) he asked why did Lex manipulate superman to kill batman. your answer is because that way Lex could prove to the public that superman can also be bad?
but the PROBLEM is that the movie shows that almost 50% of humans already hate superman and think that he is doing more damage then good. for the character Lex Luthor to work in a movie superman needs to be loved by everyone IMO.
of course your answer doesnt make sense because noone on the planet would think that superman is bad if he killed a vigilante.....a boogeyman story from gotham.
2) you didnt answer the question. you described the scenes from the movie. i think nogster has a functional brain which means that he understood a pg13 blockbuster.
3) he asked why would superman let him save his mother. not why Batman wanted to save her. he asked why would superman trust him.
4) you didnt answer the question. you copy/pasted quotes from the movie. i understand his question as why would batman bring doomsday closer to the city and humans? there is a bigger chance that humans could die.
5) i disagree with your answer..........but yes you did answer a qustion.

 

[Aquafinn90]

The amount of illogical, poorly written and awful plot machinations in this film is mindboggling.
I will elaborate just on the 3rd act for this post.

1. Lex summons Superman to him and tells him to kill Batman or Martha dies. While in the midst of bringing Doomsday to life.
Why did Lex want Superman to kill Batman?
What threat was Batman? Or was he expecting Batman to kill Superman?
If the latter, why was he resurrecting Doomsday regardless?

2. Why didn't Superman talk things out with Batman? The reasoning for their fight was so poorly done. Esspecially on Superman's part. I mean really. He went to fight and kill Batman cause Lex had his mother? Why didn't he just fly straight to where she was kept and rescue her. Don't try and tell me he would not know where she was when he can hear everything and was conditioned to "listen to her heartbeat". [MOS]. Nor can you use the "They will kill her if a rescue is attempted" because they sure as hell knew someone was attempting a rescue. what with the direct violent assault where she was being held.

3. Why would Superman agree and allow this violent vigilante who only a moment prior was on the verge of slaying him go and save his own Mother? This was ridiculous and was the straw that broke the camels back for me in regards to the film's poor reasoning.
How can he possibly trust Batman to complete such a personal and urgent task? when he could do it far quicker and more efficiently.
Then it is not even mentioned when they meet up again. [As far as I can remember]. Absolutely ridiculous writing.

4. Why would Batman lead Doomsday to an area in the city that was more susceptible to disaster and potential death than the abandoned island Doomsday was on. It would of made far more sense to go and pick up the Spear and bring it to the fight than the other way around.

5. Why did Superman have to die? This was awfully executed in the fight. Why did Superman have to get the spear and how did he know he was going to die? Why the sacrifice when it could of been so easily avoided by some communication with his allies.

When Superman died, I felt nothing. NOTHING. It was so poorly executed. It was so unnecessary.
And then the film went on for another 10 minutes, trying desperately to tug at my heartstrings and feel heartbreak. Only for the completely obvious to happen and for Superman to not really be dead. How the writers thought that this was going to work I have no idea.

I believe the answers to all my questions above and why the reasoning, logic and execution of the story was so poor and divisive is because they had action set piece storyboards thought out before they had an actual script. The joining of the dots in the story and script came second to the action set pieces and visual ideas.

I have said it numerous times.
This film would have to be the most disappointing movie I have ever seen.

1)He didn't want Superman to kill Batman. That was his plan to get Superman TO Batman so that Batman could kill Superman. His main problem is with Superman, not Batman. This is illustrated when he shows up at the scout ship and Lex says "I gave the Bat a fighting chance to do it...if man won't kill God, the Devil will do it"
DD was his failsafe. I hardly find it unreasonable that Lex always is a step ahead. Furthermore, it always seemed clear to me that by using his own blood in DD he for whatever reason thinks he will be able to control him and keep him at bay if he's not needed. Snyder confirmed my hypothesis at a later date.

2)He did try and talk Batman out of fighting. At least a few times, but Batman will not hear any of it, and keeps up his attacks on Superman. He starts pushing Batman around to show him that he could kill him easily if he wanted...at which point Batman starts with the Kryptonite and it continues from there. As for Martha, Superman didn't know where she was. There's already precedent set for him being selective in when/how he is using his super senses at the hearing when he doesn't notice the bomb. She was abducted in Smallville, and taken to Gotham, she literally could be ANYWHERE -(I will say, stupid on Lex's part to bring her so close to where he is staging this battle between Batman and Superman where there is the possibility that he will find her, but thats a nitpick as far as I'm concerned)- If it makes you more convinced, there was a scene deleted in which he tries to use his powers to find her, but he's unsuccessful because he starts hearing/seeing everything at once- will presumably be in the UC.

3) worked for me, apparently it didn't for you. I thought it was a great character moment between the two

4)I see this criticized often. So, you think he should have just left DD unsupervised on the island while he flies to Gotham and gets the spear and flies back, all under the impression that DD is going to sit quietly and wait for him? Why risk him jumping back to the more heavily populated Metropolis, or really wherever he wanted to go, when Batman was bringing him to the ABANDONED port of Gotham? seems a lot more nonsensical than some of the "nonsensical" things you are pointing out.

5) another thing I often see criticized and I find absurd. "Here WW, take this spear and get as close as you can and try and kill him and I'll watch" - For all this talk of Snyder "not getting" Superman, that seems to be possibly the most UN-Superman thing he could have done. Aside from the fact that I think his "this is my world" line had a double meaning- he was referring to Lois being his world, and him accepting that he feels he belongs on Earth now, but also that DD is quite literally, from "his world" and thus feels responsible. I don't think he KNEW undoubtably he would die, but he obviously knew it was a huge risk, being that Batman almost just killed him with the spear.

 

[Flint Marko]

"So I know I regularly fly across the planet if I hear that Lois is in danger, but I can't seem to find my mom within these city limits! I'll let the guy who just tried to kill me take care of that. Maybe he'll have a magic butler who'll conveniently pinpoint her location."

 

[Aquafinn90]

"So I know I regularly fly across the planet if I hear that Lois is in danger, but I can't seem to find my mom within these city limits! I'll let the guy who just tried to kill me take care of that. Maybe he'll have a magic butler who'll conveniently pinpoint her location."

again, doesn't know his mother is in Gotham

As for Lois- I don't think its unreasonable that when she is in Africa on a dangerous assignment that he is purposely keeping an eye and ear on her- considering her knack for getting into trouble

Again, there is precedence set for him being selective when he's using these powers.

I forgot why I stopped posting in this thread. But the last few pages have reminded me. Think I'll step out again - I feel bad for everyone that hangs around that hated the movie that really wanted to like it. I thought it was brilliant and has me excited for whats to come.

 

[Flint Marko]

again, doesn't know his mother is in Gotham

He was in the Himalayan mountains and heard Lois screaming when Lex threw her off the tower. He should easily be able to hear the woman who raised him and taught him to control his powers scream in the neighboring city.

As for Lois- I don't think its unreasonable that when she is in Africa on a dangerous assignment that he is purposely keeping an eye and ear on her- considering her knack for getting into trouble

I bet Jimmy Olsen wished he were paying a little more attention.
There's no way this can be defended. It's embarrassingly contrived.

 

[DeadStroke]

MetroVerified account ‏@MetroUK 27m27 minutes ago
Jesse Eisenberg confirms he’ll return as Lex Luthor in Justice League movie http://trib.al/sKbv1My

 

[MyDudeSpidey]

Jeremy Irons Says Batman V Superman Deserved Bad Reviews

http://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-reviews-jeremy-irons/?utm_source=SR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=SR-FB-P

 

[Lencho01]

Funny.

 

[The Joker]

Jeremy Irons Says Batman V Superman Deserved Bad Reviews

http://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-reviews-jeremy-irons/?utm_source=SR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=SR-FB-P

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The old man just didn't get the complex higher dimensions of the film.

 

[souperman]

Jeremy Irons Says Batman V Superman Deserved Bad Reviews

http://screenrant.com/batman-v-superman-reviews-jeremy-irons/?utm_source=SR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=SR-FB-P

...at least now they know where to trim the edits...

 

[ohmshalone]

Hi guys, where can I go for Batman v Superman memes? The really funny and cool ones as they're made. I seached online but Google gives me a lot of lame sites featuring memes over a year old. Is there somewhere on this board, or is there a community elsewhere that does this?

The movies on these boards used to have a photo manip thread. Don't seem to find BvS's here.

Thanks in advance for any help

 

[IronManHype]

I've read your thoughts on CW, and your levels of hypocrisy are through the roof.

But... I wouldn't expect anything different. You're a rabid defender of Snyder's movie, with absolutely no desire for any kind of critical thinking towards it whatsoever. To you, it's faultless. No movie is faultless, and your refusal to see anything wrong with it pretty much invalidates any of your arguments. You're like a religious zealot.

I guess at least you're consistent.

Funny enough I pointed out the hypocrisy over in a CW thread.

BvS dosen't spell things out - Jaxon goes "viewers have to be smart and figure it out"

CW dosen't spell things out - Jaxon goes "The film dosent make it clear and you shouldn't have to figure these things out."

 

[Sleiek]

The old man just didn't get the complex higher dimensions of the film.

Yeah, he didn't. Maybe the "simpler" follow up could make him happy.

 

[Light]

Sweet, it's Jaxon time;

1) Lex: "Do you know the oldest lie in America senator, that power can be innocent". Without going into the entirety of Lex's motivation at it's core is that he can't believe the world is accepting of Superman when his view of the world is that anything that is all powerful can't be all good. And like everyone on this forum, goes out to prove to the world that he is right and we are wrong. Superman kills Batman, he is right, and the world sees (all powerful, not all good). Batman kills Superman, he is right, and the world sees (all good, but not all powerful).

Why Doomsday? Because he doesn't really think Batman will win, and he needs a contingency for Superman in that case. Even though he tricks Batman into the fight by arming him with the tools to stand a chance he really doesn't think that Batman could possibly win.

2) Superman reasoning: Superman tries to reason, as he does Batman launches attacks on him and starts jeering him, so Superman decides to subdue him first (he is running out of time quickly and realises Batman is not up for talking this out) but kryptonite is introduced pretty quickly into the fight and then it's all gloves off.


3) Batman tells Superman he needs to go and stop what's happening at the scout ship (obviously a Superman job) and Batman so distraught with the way he has acted honours a promise to a man he know realises is not the monster, and Batman starts down a better path. I don't need to explain the Martha moment again you can read that on any page.

4) WW: "why did you lead him back to the city"
Batman: "The port is abandoned. There's a weapon here that can kill it."
Superman and Wonder Woman are not present when Batman makes the decision to lead him closer to the spear.

5) Superman had to die to make this world fully appreciate his motivations, where doubt and anger at his existence and motives around the globe were growing. It was the right call for him to get the spear and end Doomsday quickly. He didn't know he would die, but he knew it was highly likely and completes his arc from Kal-el to Superman.
When the trinity are first together he says "it's a creature from another world, my world." (this is Kal-El speaking). A few minutes later with spear nearby he says to Lois "This is my world. You are my world." (this is Superman speaking).

so Jaxon time is a poorly constructed response to reasonably identified criticisms.

 

[Light]

again, doesn't know his mother is in Gotham

As for Lois- I don't think its unreasonable that when she is in Africa on a dangerous assignment that he is purposely keeping an eye and ear on her- considering her knack for getting into trouble

Again, there is precedence set for him being selective when he's using these powers.

I forgot why I stopped posting in this thread. But the last few pages have reminded me. Think I'll step out again - I feel bad for everyone that hangs around that hated the movie that really wanted to like it. I thought it was brilliant and has me excited for whats to come.

The plot dictated he not know where Martha is and that was the only reason he couldn't find her. If we went by the ground rules established by the movie he should have been able to locate his mother in less than five minutes and swooped in. I believe the fact that he didn't falls to plot induced stupidity otherwise referred to as PIS.

 

[Aquafinn90]

The plot dictated he not know where Martha is and that was the only reason he couldn't find her. If we went by the ground rules established by the movie he should have been able to locate his mother in less than five minutes and swooped in. I believe the fact that he didn't falls to plot induced stupidity otherwise referred to as PIS.

oh you mean the ground rules established by the movie which show that he is not consistently using his elevated senses at all times?
k.

 

[Spoonman]

so Jaxon time is a poorly constructed response to reasonably identified criticisms.

Care to explain why is that "poorly constructed"? Just because you don't agree with any of it? If that were the issue, I could understand it, but nothing in that post seems poorly constructed, either that or you have some weird word definitions.

Frankly sometimes it seems like a vicious cycle. I am not saying eveytime, but sometimes there are people that actually have reasonable responses to the criticism but instead of engaging into actual discussions, highly dismissive posts like yours shut down the whole thing "just because"; I would expect more intent to discuss from people so clever that are capable of identifying "reasonably criticisms".

 

[nogster]

oh you mean the ground rules established by the movie which show that he is not consistently using his elevated senses at all times?
k.

Yeah. It's only his mom in grave danger. Using his senses at this time is not necessary. Especially considering this awesome scene with Batman who was on the verge of killing him was storyboarded to save her.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

Seriously duds, can't you read into anything? Are you SO literal that you can not understand the simple "descriptive" comment he meant by using the word coma?

I am sure everyone else understood that he was suggesting that since superman WILL return, his DEATH is really more "like" a coma...because he comes back!

Just a way of describing things bros.

Maybe m1ll3r, whatever the heck that means, works for Webster being a Brit and can't help himself, but what's your excuse aNarcHy2day?

Are you both related to Drax? Must be fun to have a face to face convo with you, correcting grammar and syntax all the time.

This is supposed to be a fun and enjoyable discussion. Points of view. Not a point game. There is no winner or loser. This is not a winner take all war. It is a discussion forum. Picking on phrasing is just weak. Some people just type fast. Sometimes they don't formulate their ideas completely because they are excited to post it. These posts are not thesis. They are not handed in to be graded...are they?

I didn't bother to edit myself so have fun analyzing the sentences.

Wow. Just wow. I didn't expect it to descend into straight out insults this quickly.

Good sir,
If you actually cared about reading Jaxon's posts, you'd probably figure out that I'm not arguing semantics at all. He said, and continued saying in the post following yours, that the film clearly indicates that Superman is not dead as opposed to 'Superman will return' which in my view are two different things. Superman returns after Death of Superman too because of the regeneration matrix. So is Superman 'not dead' in DoS either?

You also either missed or ignored the larger point being highlighted- that certain people are making facts about the movie up to make it better than it is as in this case. The movie doesn't specify anything regarding Superman's state apart from him returning and to say the movie does is not based on fact.

And that is a nice segway into your second point about points of view/ opinions.
They HAVE to be based on actual verifiable facts. You can't say "in my opinion, the Sun sets in the East" because it's factually wrong. It being opinion doesn't make it right in this case.