BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

[Spider-jedi]

If David Lynch ever made a Superman movie, it would blow MOS/BVS out of the water in terms of controversy.

perhaps but i think with Daivd Lynch, people will expect that based on his pass work. plus his filmography is more respected than ZS

 

[Aurakles]

perhaps but i think with Daivd Lynch, people will expect that based on his pass work. plus his filmography is more respected than ZS

Only one way to find out...
Probably the best chance of getting Mr Mxyzptlk on the big screen.

 

[Spider-jedi]

Only one way to find out...
Probably the best chance of getting Mr Mxyzptlk on the big screen.

I would like to see Mr. Mxyzptlk. that would be cool

 

[william]

 

[Aurakles]

Something Superman should never say. Note how at the end of that ****ty movie, it's Batman saying, "Men are still good."

Never? He can't have moment of doubt? He should be immune to despair, incapable of being heartbroken?
Batman does say "Men are still good" but it is after his own dark period of cynical nihilism. That quote continues "we fight, we kill, we betray one another. But we can rebuild, we can do better, we will" .The point being that we all have moments of weakness, of pain and despair, but we can emerge from it stronger than before.
Just as Batman overcomes his darkness and returns to the light, so too does Superman.

 

[TheVileOne]

Never? He can't have moment of doubt? He should be immune to despair, incapable of being heartbroken?
Batman does say "Men are still good" but it is after his own dark period of cynical nihilism. That quote continues "we fight, we kill, we betray one another. But we can rebuild, we can do better, we will" .The point being that we all have moments of weakness, of pain and despair, but we can emerge from it stronger than before.
Just as Batman overcomes his darkness and returns to the light, so too does Superman.

Yes, a moment. Not the entire basis of his character.

 

[SupermanFan]

I agree that’s a line too far for Superman, it’s awful and it’s the worst line I’ve ever heard Superman utter in any film.

However, BvS is great, it’s a minor moment that I can just ignore.

 

[obredaan]

I agree that’s a line too far for Superman, it’s awful and it’s the worst line I’ve ever heard Superman utter in any film.

However, BvS is great, it’s a minor moment that I can just ignore.

I have a theory that someone wrote that line initially for Batman because it totally fits that version of the character.

 

[SupermanFan]

I have a theory that someone wrote that line initially for Batman because it totally fits that version of the character.

That would have made more sense

 

[TheVileOne]

Maybe if the movie they were making was The Dark Knight Returns, which they weren't.

 

[misslane38]

All he says is "no one STAYS good." Newsflash! No one does. As Bruce says, we all fall, but instead of staying fallen, people can still choose to do good. In other words, goodness is not a diamond absolute. It's always a work in progress. Being able to face and acknowledge the world's flaws and darkness, and choose hope anyway -- choose to seek Batman's help to save Martha, for example -- is the best approach, and not deluding yourself with useless platitudes like everyone is good or people are always good. That's not hope. That's a beautiful lie.

 

[TheVileOne]

All he says in "no one STAYS good." Newsflash! No one does. As Bruce says, we all fall, but instead of staying fallen, people can still choose to do good. In other words, goodness is not a diamond absolute. It's always a work in progress. Being able to face and acknowledge the world's flaws and darkness, and choose hope anyway -- choose to seek Batman's help to save Martha, for example -- is the best approach, and not deluding yourself with useless platitudes like everyone is good or people are always good. That's not hope. That's a beautiful lie.

Superman does.

 

[misslane38]

Superman does.

No, he doesn't. He loves humanity despite its flaws. His love is unconditional. If he only loves us and is only hopeful because he lies to himself that everyone stays good and or is always good, then he isn't being hopeful. He's being delusional. Humans are not always good. They do not always stay good. Superman should love humanity and want to save it because of who we are not who we aren't.

If you mean that Superman is the sole exception, that he alone does stay good, then you are also wrong there, in my view. He is not a god who is infallible. Your mindset is where Lex and Bruce go wrong in the film. By needing to project upon Superman the infallibility of a savior, or a Jesus character as one pundit in the media montage says, you are not allowing there to be any "holes in the holy," as Lex put it. You are saying that any Superman who does anything other than believe and portray absolute goodness is a fraud. That is also not true to the character, in my opinion. Ultimately, he is a man (or Kryptonian), just trying to do the right thing.

Perfection in humanity and in Superman is a lie. It is not, in my opinion, an accurate or a productive way for Superman to view ordinary people and for fans to view his character.

 

[TheVileOne]

No, he doesn't. He loves humanity despite its flaws. His love is unconditional. If he only loves us and is only hopeful because he lies to himself that everyone stays good and or is always good, then he isn't being hopeful. He's being delusional. Humans are not always good. They do not always stay good. Superman should love humanity and want to save it because of who we are not who we aren't.

If you mean that Superman is the sole exception, that he alone does stay good, then you are also wrong there, in my view. He is not a god who is infallible. Your mindset is where Lex and Bruce go wrong in the film. By needing to project upon Superman the infallibility of a savior, or a Jesus character as one pundit in the media montage says, you are not allowing there to be any "holes in the holy," as Lex put it. You are saying that any Superman who does anything other than believe and portray absolute goodness is a fraud. That is also not true to the character, in my opinion. Ultimately, he is a man (or Kryptonian), just trying to do the right thing.

Perfection in humanity and in Superman is a lie. It is not, in my opinion, an accurate or a productive way for Superman to view ordinary people and for fans to view his character.

He loves humanity because he sees himself as one. He doesn't view himself as a god.

 

[Aurakles]

Yes, a moment. Not the entire basis of his character.

"Never" means not even for a moment. If Superman can be allowed to feel this way even once, then it isn't a hard rule.

No one is infallible, even Superman. He realises this, that everyone is capable of terrible things, that this world is fallen. Yet in the end he declares "This is my world" and sacrifices himself for it anyway. Because he has hope that there is still good in this world and that we can do better.

BVS isn't about staying good, maintaining perfection, it's about falling off the wagon and the struggle to get back on board.

Superman sees himself as human, I think we should too.

 

[flickchick85]

There is no "love for humanity" in that line, imo. None. It read as pure cynicism to me, and represents his whole increasingly pessimistic worldview in the film. It's no shocker he tells Lois "You're my world" at the end - because he's seemingly given up on everybody else, and she's the only thing making it worth saving to him.

No, he doesn't. He loves humanity despite its flaws. His love is unconditional. If he only loves us and is only hopeful because he lies to himself that everyone stays good and or is always good, then he isn't being hopeful. He's being delusional. Humans are not always good. They do not always stay good. Superman should love humanity and want to save it because of who we are not who we aren't.

If you mean that Superman is the sole exception, that he alone does stay good, then you are also wrong there, in my view. He is not a god who is infallible. Your mindset is where Lex and Bruce go wrong in the film. By needing to project upon Superman the infallibility of a savior, or a Jesus character as one pundit in the media montage says, you are not allowing there to be any "holes in the holy," as Lex put it. You are saying that any Superman who does anything other than believe and portray absolute goodness is a fraud. That is also not true to the character, in my opinion. Ultimately, he is a man (or Kryptonian), just trying to do the right thing.

Perfection in humanity and in Superman is a lie. It is not, in my opinion, an accurate or a productive way for Superman to view ordinary people and for fans to view his character.

Wow, way to completely twist @TheVileOne 's argument to make a straw man. No one mentioned perfection. No one's talking about perfection. The discussion is about goodness, which as you say yourself is not an absolute. The line isn't "No one stays perfect in this world." "Good" =/= "Perfect." Everyone has flaws and failings and moments of doubt, but PLENTY of people stay good in this world, and do their best to do the right thing. Sometimes they fail or make the wrong choice, but that doesn't mean they can't stay good, and keep striving to do better and do right by their fellow man. To suggest otherwise is a nihilistic and...sad view, imo. And to me, the whole point of Superman is that he's supposed to be the best of us, and SEE the best in us, even when we can't. Nihilism is not supposed to be in his make up. That's what truly makes him super, imo, not his powers, and he got it from the Kents. So yes, I think he should stay good, and always believe in mankind's capacity to do so. That doesn't mean stay perfect or make only the right choices, and you suggesting otherwise is simply an attempt to tear down a perfectly valid argument using an argument nobody actually made. Let's not pretend that line was referring to any expectations of "diamond absolutes." I don't know anyone who took the line to mean "nobody's perfect." It looked to me like it was meant to indicate Superman was giving up, and expressing a willingness to abandon his hope for mankind and do something heinous because someone kidnapped his mom. Snyder can dress it up in "this is the real world" all he likes, but that ain't Superman to me, sorry. You know, Lois & Clark presented a similar quandary for Supes - his parents were kidnapped, and he was blackmailed into and willing to break the law to save them - stealing some diamonds - figuring he could catch the bad guys and return the diamonds after his parents were safe...UNTIL the demands escalated to the point of telling him to hurt someone else. And that was a line he was unwilling to cross, even to save his parents, because he KNEW his parents would never want that. The Superman I know and want to see in films and TV believed his parents were good to the end. And he believes the same of Jimmy, Lois, Lana, etc. Even when they make bad choices, he believed they were still good. So yes, he believes people can stay good in this world, because he's seen it firsthand.

Snyder loves to present these "absolute" choices that are completely unearned (snapping Zod's neck, letting Jonathan die, fighting Batman), and pretend like they're the only choice, but they're lazily constructed and don't show the character making a true effort to find other solutions (when the audience is constantly saying, "why didn't he do this? Or this?" then you didn't sell them on a character's choice or lack thereof), the way many feel a character like Superman should, and would in the comics and other media. It's like these scenarios were created just to drag the character down to our lowest level and make him less aspirational. If that works for you, cool. But I personally feel it flies in the face of everything he was created to represent.

And unfortunately, since we've been over this many times before, including a previous temp ban, you seem incapable of making your arguments without suggesting that other posters view the character or film "wrong," "incorrectly," or "inaccurately." You are not the authority on the character or this film that you seem to think you are. No one is. You are not a bigger fan than anyone here. You do not see more clearly than anyone here. You do not have some greater understanding. And you don't appear able to make your arguments without suggesting such a reality. And since you can't make your arguments without doing that very basic thing we've asked of you multiple times, then you won't be making anymore arguments here. We had a User Note on your account specifically saying "NO MORE WARNINGS" for this exact behavior, so I'm sorry, but I'm afraid this is your final strike.

For any other posters reading this, if you'd like a great example of how to defend BvS respectfully, without pretending your view is the only factually accurate view, and without coming across hella condescending toward those who feel differently, I suggest you look no further than @Aurakles ' recent postings in this thread.

 

[Primal Slayer]

There is no "love for humanity" in that line, imo. None. It read as pure cynicism to me, and represents his whole increasingly pessimistic worldview in the film. It's no shocker he tells Lois "You're my world" at the end - because he's seemingly given up on everybody else, and she's the only thing making it worth saving to him.


Wow, way to completely twist @TheVileOne 's argument to make a straw man. No one mentioned perfection. No one's talking about perfection. The discussion is about goodness, which as you say yourself is not an absolute. The line isn't "No one stays perfect in this world." "Good" =/= "Perfect." Everyone has flaws and failings and moments of doubt, but PLENTY of people stay good in this world, and do their best to do the right thing. Sometimes they fail or make the wrong choice, but that doesn't mean they can't stay good, and keep striving to do better and do right by their fellow man. To suggest otherwise is a nihilistic and...sad view, imo. And to me, the whole point of Superman is that he's supposed to be the best of us, and SEE the best in us, even when we can't. Nihilism is not supposed to be in his make up. That's what truly makes him super, imo, not his powers, and he got it from the Kents. So yes, I think he should stay good, and always believe in mankind's capacity to do so. That doesn't mean stay perfect or make only the right choices, and you suggesting otherwise is simply an attempt to tear down a perfectly valid argument using an argument nobody actually made. Let's not pretend that line was referring to any expectations of "diamond absolutes." I don't know anyone who took the line to mean "nobody's perfect." It looked to me like it was meant to indicate Superman was giving up, and expressing a willingness to abandon his hope for mankind and do something heinous because someone kidnapped his mom. Snyder can dress it up in "this is the real world" all he likes, but that ain't Superman to me, sorry. You know, Lois & Clark presented a similar quandary for Supes - his parents were kidnapped, and he was blackmailed into and willing to break the law to save them - stealing some diamonds - figuring he could catch the bad guys and return the diamonds after his parents were safe...UNTIL the demands escalated to the point of telling him to hurt someone else. And that was a line he was unwilling to cross, even to save his parents, because he KNEW his parents would never want that. The Superman I know and want to see in films and TV believed his parents were good to the end. And he believes the same of Jimmy, Lois, Lana, etc. Even when they make bad choices, he believed they were still good. So yes, he believes people can stay good in this world, because he's seen it firsthand.

Snyder loves to present these "absolute" choices that are completely unearned (snapping Zod's neck, letting Jonathan die, fighting Batman), and pretend like they're the only choice, but they're lazily constructed and don't show the character making a true effort to find other solutions (when the audience is constantly saying, "why didn't he do this? Or this?" then you didn't sell them on a character's choice or lack thereof), the way many feel a character like Superman should, and would in the comics and other media. It's like these scenarios were created just to drag the character down to our lowest level and make him less aspirational. If that works for you, cool. But I personally feel it flies in the face of everything he was created to represent.

And unfortunately, since we've been over this many times before, including a previous temp ban, you seem incapable of making your arguments without suggesting that other posters view the character or film "wrong," "incorrectly," or "inaccurately." You are not the authority on the character or this film that you seem to think you are. No one is. You are not a bigger fan than anyone here. You do not see more clearly than anyone here. You do not have some greater understanding. And you don't appear able to make your arguments without suggesting such a reality. And since you can't make your arguments without doing that very basic thing we've asked of you multiple times, then you won't be making anymore arguments here. We had a User Note on your account specifically saying "NO MORE WARNINGS" for this exact behavior, so I'm sorry, but I'm afraid this is your final strike.

For any other posters reading this, if you'd like a great example of how to defend BvS respectfully, without pretending your view is the only factually accurate view, and without coming across hella condescending toward those who feel differently, I suggest you look no further than @Aurakles ' recent postings in this thread.

 

[SupermanFan]

There is no "love for humanity" in that line, imo. None. It read as pure cynicism to me, and represents his whole increasingly pessimistic worldview in the film. It's no shocker he tells Lois "You're my world" at the end - because he's seemingly given up on everybody else, and she's the only thing making it worth saving to him.


Wow, way to completely twist @TheVileOne 's argument to make a straw man. No one mentioned perfection. No one's talking about perfection. The discussion is about goodness, which as you say yourself is not an absolute. The line isn't "No one stays perfect in this world." "Good" =/= "Perfect." Everyone has flaws and failings and moments of doubt, but PLENTY of people stay good in this world, and do their best to do the right thing. Sometimes they fail or make the wrong choice, but that doesn't mean they can't stay good, and keep striving to do better and do right by their fellow man. To suggest otherwise is a nihilistic and...sad view, imo. And to me, the whole point of Superman is that he's supposed to be the best of us, and SEE the best in us, even when we can't. Nihilism is not supposed to be in his make up. That's what truly makes him super, imo, not his powers, and he got it from the Kents. So yes, I think he should stay good, and always believe in mankind's capacity to do so. That doesn't mean stay perfect or make only the right choices, and you suggesting otherwise is simply an attempt to tear down a perfectly valid argument using an argument nobody actually made. Let's not pretend that line was referring to any expectations of "diamond absolutes." I don't know anyone who took the line to mean "nobody's perfect." It looked to me like it was meant to indicate Superman was giving up, and expressing a willingness to abandon his hope for mankind and do something heinous because someone kidnapped his mom. Snyder can dress it up in "this is the real world" all he likes, but that ain't Superman to me, sorry. You know, Lois & Clark presented a similar quandary for Supes - his parents were kidnapped, and he was blackmailed into and willing to break the law to save them - stealing some diamonds - figuring he could catch the bad guys and return the diamonds after his parents were safe...UNTIL the demands escalated to the point of telling him to hurt someone else. And that was a line he was unwilling to cross, even to save his parents, because he KNEW his parents would never want that. The Superman I know and want to see in films and TV believed his parents were good to the end. And he believes the same of Jimmy, Lois, Lana, etc. Even when they make bad choices, he believed they were still good. So yes, he believes people can stay good in this world, because he's seen it firsthand.

Snyder loves to present these "absolute" choices that are completely unearned (snapping Zod's neck, letting Jonathan die, fighting Batman), and pretend like they're the only choice, but they're lazily constructed and don't show the character making a true effort to find other solutions (when the audience is constantly saying, "why didn't he do this? Or this?" then you didn't sell them on a character's choice or lack thereof), the way many feel a character like Superman should, and would in the comics and other media. It's like these scenarios were created just to drag the character down to our lowest level and make him less aspirational. If that works for you, cool. But I personally feel it flies in the face of everything he was created to represent.

And unfortunately, since we've been over this many times before, including a previous temp ban, you seem incapable of making your arguments without suggesting that other posters view the character or film "wrong," "incorrectly," or "inaccurately." You are not the authority on the character or this film that you seem to think you are. No one is. You are not a bigger fan than anyone here. You do not see more clearly than anyone here. You do not have some greater understanding. And you don't appear able to make your arguments without suggesting such a reality. And since you can't make your arguments without doing that very basic thing we've asked of you multiple times, then you won't be making anymore arguments here. We had a User Note on your account specifically saying "NO MORE WARNINGS" for this exact behavior, so I'm sorry, but I'm afraid this is your final strike.

For any other posters reading this, if you'd like a great example of how to defend BvS respectfully, without pretending your view is the only factually accurate view, and without coming across hella condescending toward those who feel differently, I suggest you look no further than @Aurakles ' recent postings in this thread.

You forgot something...

 

[Kevin_28]

There is no "love for humanity" in that line, imo. None. It read as pure cynicism to me, and represents his whole increasingly pessimistic worldview in the film. It's no shocker he tells Lois "You're my world" at the end - because he's seemingly given up on everybody else, and she's the only thing making it worth saving to him.

He also says, "This is my world."

 

[flickchick85]

He also says, "This is my world."

That part of my post you referenced was sarcasm, intending to illustrate the attitude of the character in general throughout the film as I saw it, but if we're gonna get technical, he said "YOU are my world" after saying "this is my world," as if to specify.

 

[Kevin_28]

That part of my post you referenced was sarcasm, intending to illustrate the attitude of the character in general throughout the film as I saw it, but if we're gonna get technical, he said "YOU are my world" after saying "this is my world," as if to specify.

But you're also assuming that by him saying, "This is my world." that he is only talking about Lois, so others like his mom, and who knows whoever else doesn't.

 

[flickchick85]

But you're also assuming that by him saying, "This is my world." that he is only talking about Lois, so others like his mom, and who knows whoever else doesn't.

Because that's the way it's delivered, and seems backed up by his attitudes in the film leading up to it. You're welcome to disagree of course, but regardless of whatever's intended, that's the way it comes across to me. This Superman never seemed particularly interested in interacting or engaging with the people of Earth, and helping them only ever looked like a burden/obligation to him. So when he goes from "this is my world" to "YOU are my world," it feels like he kinda means that. I mean, sure he cares about his mom, but is there anyone else he's fighting for? Doesn't feel like it to me, based on what's presented.

 

[TheVileOne]

I could be wrong, but I took it more as he cared more about Lois than saving anyone else.

 

[Kevin_28]

That's fair. I see it as two distinctly different thoughts. This is my world is him accepting his place here for the good and the bad. He was put through the wringer in this movie. You are my world is a common romantic phrase. I wouldn't say that anyone who uses that phrase towards someone also means they don't see themselves as part of this world.

I'll add a bit more as well. Given the context of his conversation with his father, and then him seeing Batman turn around from his evil intent to murder Superman, and go out of his way to save his mother, I would say that it solidified his father's statement of there being "good in this world".

 

[The Shape]

That's fair. I see it as two distinctly different thoughts. This is my world is him accepting his place here for the good and the bad. He was put through the wringer in this movie. You are my world is a common romantic phrase. I wouldn't say that anyone who uses that phrase towards someone also means they don't see themselves as part of this world.

I'll add a bit more as well. Given the context of his conversation with his father, and then him seeing Batman turn around from his evil intent to murder Superman, and go out of his way to save his mother, I would say that it solidified his father's statement of there being "good in this world".

Yes. It's amazing what people choose to see (or not to see) when it comes to BvS.