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BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - Part 305

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Bruce asks his assistant why he has never seen the checks after they return and all he replies is "I'm sorry Mr Wayne, I'll look into it".

So, it could be that someone inside Wayne Ent is intercepting the messages under Luthor's orders or that Bruce doesn't spend enough time as Bruce. Both fit with the movie for different reasons, though the latter one works into Batman's motivation and it's consistent with his characterization in the film.

So someone in the movie had to outright say "we don't know why this conveniently happened right at this moment either, but I'll get back to you". :lmao:

Let's not bend over backwards so this screenplay will make sense. The film makers should have handled that in pre-production.
 
Somehow this movie simultaneously had too much story and not enough of it. Quite a feat.
 
So someone in the movie had to outright say "we don't know why this conveniently happened right at this moment either, but I'll get back to you". :lmao:

Let's not bend over backwards so this screenplay will make sense. The film makers should have handled that in pre-production.
There are things that should've been clearer, sure. But what I'm suggesting isn't a stretch, the movie goes out of its way to make the point that Batman's losing his touch with humanity.

Then again, I'm not American, I don't know your laws regarding disability checks, so I never questioned it in the first place.
 
"My dad hit me, so I hate Superman! I'm going to manipulate events in Africa where he will inexplicably be blamed for people being shot. Then, I'm going to mail a bunch of letters to Bruce Wayne that will make him sad right before I bomb a senate hearing where Superman will inexplicably be blamed once again! Then, I'm going to kidnap Lois so I can reveal to superman... that I have kidnapped his Mom! This is all to get him to fight someone he already wanted to fight who has the only thing on earth capable of killing him. While that's happening, I'm going to create a giant alien monster I could never hope to control for vague, inexplicable reasons - and then reveal that I inexplicably know that something bigger is coming, teasing for the inevitable sequel!"

All this, combined with Eisenberg's performance, put him as easily one of the worst villains in any CBM.

Wow you pretty much summed it all up. Convoluted mess. Awful villain.
 
There are things that should've been clearer, sure. But what I'm suggesting isn't a stretch, the movie goes out of its way to make the point that Batman's losing his touch with humanity.

Then again, I'm not American, I don't know your laws regarding disability checks, so I never questioned it in the first place.

Your explanation might not be a stretch, but it's certainly not the answer. See, the question of why Bruce conveniently opened up all those letters mere minutes before the bombing has a definitive answer - that being, the film makers needed it to so the plot would move forward.

If there is an actual in-movie reason why all of these letters have sat untouched by Bruce Wayne up until that exact moment, I'm all ears. But at the moment it seems like just another contrivance in a movie that relies heavily upon contrivances.
 
"My dad hit me, so I hate Superman! I'm going to manipulate events in Africa where he will inexplicably be blamed for people being shot. Then, I'm going to mail a bunch of letters to Bruce Wayne that will make him sad right before I bomb a senate hearing where Superman will inexplicably be blamed once again! Then, I'm going to kidnap Lois so I can reveal to superman... that I have kidnapped his Mom! This is all to get him to fight someone he already wanted to fight who has the only thing on earth capable of killing him. While that's happening, I'm going to create a giant alien monster I could never hope to control for vague, inexplicable reasons - and then reveal that I inexplicably know that something bigger is coming, teasing for the inevitable sequel!"

All this, combined with Eisenberg's performance, put him as easily one of the worst villains in any CBM.

Hear hear :up:
 
Just want to add my 2 cents here.

I am not a fan of the movie but i think Snyder is getting blamed too much. I dont have any soucre on this, this is just me thinking about the whole thing. for BVS they mostly shot about 4 to 5 hrs of footage and then it is trimmed down. this is what happens for most movies even comedies. in the case of BVS when it was trimmed Snyder saw that a 3hr cut is what works best but as a studio head i can understand them forceing him to trim it more. shorter length means for showing.

Im not saying the 3hr version is better, i havent seen it and i have no desire to. this whole thing shows IMO that WB didnt have much faith in Sndyers work to let the 3hr version come out.
 
"My dad hit me, so I hate Superman! I'm going to manipulate events in Africa where he will inexplicably be blamed for people being shot. Then, I'm going to mail a bunch of letters to Bruce Wayne that will make him sad right before I bomb a senate hearing where Superman will inexplicably be blamed once again! Then, I'm going to kidnap Lois so I can reveal to superman... that I have kidnapped his Mom! This is all to get him to fight someone he already wanted to fight who has the only thing on earth capable of killing him. While that's happening, I'm going to create a giant alien monster I could never hope to control for vague, inexplicable reasons - and then reveal that I inexplicably know that something bigger is coming, teasing for the inevitable sequel!"

All this, combined with Eisenberg's performance, put him as easily one of the worst villains in any CBM.

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S***... Poison Ivy's plans in B&R made more sense than this.
 
Here's the question I have surrounding that scene. Wally has been on disability pay since the Battle of Metropolis, right? But evidently, Luthor has been intercepting the checks and writing mean things on them before sending them back. He's apparently been doing this for over a year, and Wally never tried to contact Wayne Enterprises about not getting his disability pay? Never went to the media about it? Never sued? Why not? Did Luthor intercept the checks to write the messages and then send Wally replacement checks so he wouldn't know something was up? If he did, it's never explained on screen, and I doubt it because Wally seems to be living in squalor, and I'd think Bruce Wayne would take care of his employees better, given that their deaths are part of what motivates him to try and murder Superman.

Beyond that, despite knowing about the checks being sent back with weird, vaguely threatening messages on them, nobody at Wayne Enterprises bothered to notify law enforcement or Bruce Wayne until Bruce asked about the checks, conveniently mere minutes before the bombing?

This isn't a well thought out plan. The only reason it works out for Luthor is because everybody being manipulated is an idiot. If Wally got in touch with Wayne Enterprises, the fact that someone had been returning his checks would have been discovered. If Wally had gotten in touch with the media, the fact that Bruce Wayne saved his life but apparently won't pay disability would have been discovered, leading to Wayne Enterprises revealing the returned checks with messages Wally didn't write. If someone at Wayne Enterprises had spoken to Bruce or law enforcement about deranged, vaguely threatening messages sent to the CEO of a multibillion dollar corporation on a former employee's returned disability checks, which would be especially alarming considering said CEO saved this person's life, the ruse would have been discovered and Batman would have begun investigating, which could have unraveled Luthor's entire plan.

Someone let me know if I'm missing something here.


Well, you are missing something here. Long-term or permanent disability checks come from the federal/state government or Social Security -- not from a person's employer or former employer. Based on his injury, I have little doubt that he was regularly receiving disability checks from the government for whatever amount (probably not a whole lot). Bruce Wayne, on the other hand, likely mandated that his company also send Wally checks each month not because he had to, but because he's a generous and typically compassionate person when it comes to those close to him (friends, family, employees).

Therefore, Wally would never have been expecting or waiting for these checks from Wayne Enterprises. He would have no grounds to report the absence of monthly compensation to the media or to sue the company for the same reason. If anything, the fact that Lex had been intercepting these checks would make Wally feel as if his former employer had simply forgotten about him, which would only serve to fuel his already warped mental state.

As far as why Wayne Enterprises wouldn't report Wally's returned checks to the police, why should they? No laws were broken. An unhappy former employee wasn't cashing in on checks (which were essentially gifts) and was returning them with nasty notes scrawled on them, none of which seemed to include specific legitimate threats or claims that he planned to kill anybody at the company or elsewhere. He wasn't initiating contact with the company, and he wasn't harassing the company in any way really.

Even if someone at the company told Bruce months prior that Wally was returning the checks with notes scrawled on them, what do you think Bruce would say? "Keep sending them anyway." Why would Bruce or the company want to investigate or persecute a man whose family had been killed and life had been destroyed in the Metroplis incident? Because the poor guy wasn't accepting their money and seemed to be mad at the head of the company?

We all know Wally wasn't actually receiving or returning the checks with those notes. He might not have even harbored such negative feelings towards Bruce Wayne or the company, but it was pretty smart of Lex to use Wally as a pawn in both of his agendas against Batman and Superman in different ways. Kind of pointless to try poking holes into something like this, which can be so easily explained in more ways than one.
 
Bruce asks his assistant why he has never seen the checks after they return and all he replies is "I'm sorry Mr Wayne, I'll look into it".

So, it could be that someone inside Wayne Ent is intercepting the messages under Luthor's orders or that Bruce doesn't spend enough time as Bruce. Both fit with the movie for different reasons, though the latter one works into Batman's motivation and it's consistent with his characterization in the film.

Flint Marko said:
So someone in the movie had to outright say "we don't know why this conveniently happened right at this moment either, but I'll get back to you".

Let's not bend over backwards so this screenplay will make sense. The film makers should have handled that in pre-production.


I provided a more thorough explanation about this whole thing in my previous post, but in regard to this particular "issue":

After asking about Wally's checks and seeing that they've been returned with notes on them, Bruce asks, "Why haven't I seen these before?" His employee responds, "I'm sorry, Mr. Wayne. I'll look into it."

Try to think logically here. Why hasn't Bruce Wayne seen those returned checks before? Because he's the head and CEO of a multi-billion company and it's highly unlikely that his employees would personally seek him out to make him privy of any and all issues with payroll of low-level employees or sending/receiving mail at the lowest level. I hope no one here believes that the CEOs of the world's biggest companies are made aware of every angry letter a company receives or every internal issue regarding low-level employees or former employees.

At this point, it seems like you're bending over backwards so that the screenplay doesn't make sense. And out of curiosity, have you had the chance to watch the Ultimate Edition in its entirety?
 
Even if someone at the company told Bruce months prior that Wally was returning the checks with notes scrawled on them, what do you think Bruce would say?

Bruce would look into the matter and find out what was going on, unraveling Lex's entire plan. Much like the film's central conflict, this whole thing could have been resolved with one quick conversation - conveniently the one guy he needs to talk to had his wheelchair blow up mere minutes after Bruce found out, even though Lex had clearly been doing this for months.

Again, just another contrivance in a movie that relies heavily on contrivances.

I provided a more thorough explanation about this whole thing in my previous post, but in regard to this particular "issue":

After asking about Wally's checks and seeing that they've been returned with notes on them, Bruce asks, "Why haven't I seen these before?" His employee responds, "I'm sorry, Mr. Wayne. I'll look into it."

Try to think logically here. Why hasn't Bruce Wayne seen those returned checks before? Because he's the head and CEO of a multi-billion company and it's highly unlikely that his employees would personally seek him out to make him privy of any and all issues with payroll of low-level employees or sending/receiving mail at the lowest level. I hope no one here believes that the CEOs of the world's biggest companies are made aware of every angry letter a company receives or every internal issue regarding low-level employees or former employees.

Wait, then why would Lex even bother in the first place? Why would a key component of Lex's plan involve mailing him mean letters he'll probably never open? :funny:

And out of curiosity, have you had the chance to watch the Ultimate Edition in its entirety?

I have not.
 
Probably would've been better to have had Bruce find out about Wally after he blew himself up. That way you avoid the plot contrivances.
 
Why are we all assuming that Wally was getting disability checks from Wayne and not additional relief checks?

My interpretation was that Wayne created a relief fund beyond just federal disability pay, which isn't very much.

I could be wrong, but don't disability checks come from the federal government? This wasn't exactly a workers comp situation.
 
Bruce would look into the matter and find out what was going on, unraveling Lex's entire plan. Much like the film's central conflict, this whole thing could have been resolved with one quick conversation - conveniently the one guy he needs to talk to had his wheelchair blow up mere minutes after Bruce found out, even though Lex had clearly been doing this for months.

Again, just another contrivance in a movie that relies heavily on contrivances.

Interesting that you ignored the rest of my post to address only this aspect, and again, there are simple explanations.

- What reason would Bruce have to check on Wally receiving the checks or personally approach Wally prior to seeing him on television after he defaced the Superman statue, or on national news when Wally was interviewed and shown to be angrily participating in the Capitol hearing?
- It's unclear how long Lex had been intercepting and returning the checks to Wayne Enterprises. He could have been intercepting them and made sure they were all returned prior to the Capitol hearing, once his plan with Wally and the wheelchair bomb was actually set. He could have been returning them all along and banked on the fact that Bruce would eventually wind up looking into Wally's checks after seeing him plastered all over the news, if he hadn't already been made aware of the returned checks previously.
- Lex may have only singled out Wally and started this process after seeing him on the news being arrested for vandalizing the Superman statue, realizing Wally was the perfect pawn based on his hate for Superman and connection to Bruce Wayne.

These are small details which ultimately don't matter in the grand scheme of things because Lex's scheme unfolded as planned and with the intended effect, but I guess for some, all of the things which aren't explicitly explained or detailed should automatically be considered as "contrivances".

I do have to wonder if you feel the need to try to poke holes like this in the plans/actions of other movie villains for which everything seems to fall into place and work out in their favor, often based on luck or convenience. We could pick apart so many movies in this way (including The Dark Knight), if we wanted to.


I have not.

Although I doubt it would actually change your perception of the film, I think you'll find Lex's full plan (a good chunk of which was cut from the film and rearranged in the theatrical cut) to be more coherent, well-planned, ruthless, and effective -- especially in terms of how he pushes Bruce's and particularly Clark's buttons to pit them against each other.
 
Why are we all assuming that Wally was getting disability checks from Wayne and not additional relief checks?

My interpretation was that Wayne created a relief fund beyond just federal disability pay, which isn't very much.

I could be wrong, but don't disability checks come from the federal government? This wasn't exactly a workers comp situation.


You are correct.
 
Probably would've been better to have had Bruce find out about Wally after he blew himself up. That way you avoid the plot contrivances.


If we're being honest, Bruce likely would have found out either way, which is I'm sure what Lex was banking on. In the movie, it just so happens that Bruce was watching the live coverage of the Capitol hearing while he's at Wayne Enterprises, and therefore inquired and found out about the returned checks in that moment. If he wasn't watching it live, he obviously would have seen/heard the news shortly afterwards and likely would have had the same kind of reaction.
 
I don't like the African village subplot. I would've liked that whole storyline replaced.
 
Interesting that you ignored the rest of my post to address only this aspect, and again, there are simple explanations.

Kind of like how you ignored my counter-argument that Lex's plan to make Bruce sad by sending him mean letters doesn't really make sense in the first place because, as you brought up, why would angry letters from a former employee concern the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company? Interesting indeed.

I honestly don't care to get into the real world semantics of how disability checks work. I asked questions and received adequate answers. I have not yet received an adequate answer in regards to the point I have been addressing, which is honestly more pertinent to discussing the inner-workings of this film.

- What reason would Bruce have to check on Wally receiving the checks or personally approach Wally prior to seeing him on television after he defaced the Superman statue, or on national news when Wally was interviewed and shown to be angrily participating in the Capitol hearing?
- It's unclear how long Lex had been intercepting and returning the checks to Wayne Enterprises. He could have been intercepting them and made sure they were all returned prior to the Capitol hearing, once his plan with Wally and the wheelchair bomb was actually set. He could have been returning them all along and banked on the fact that Bruce would eventually wind up looking into Wally's checks after seeing him plastered all over the news, if he hadn't already been made aware of the returned checks previously.

- Lex may have only singled out Wally and started this process after seeing him on the news being arrested for vandalizing the Superman statue, realizing Wally was the perfect pawn based on his hate for Superman and connection to Bruce Wayne.

These are small details which ultimately don't matter in the grand scheme of things because Lex's scheme unfolded as planned and with the intended effect, but I guess for some, all of the things which aren't explicitly explained or detailed should automatically be considered as "contrivances".

No, convenient things happening at convenient times with nothing in the way of an explanation that only serve to push the plot forward are adequately deemed as "contrivances". This is one of those occasions. You have not done anything to show how Lex executed this plan properly to have the intended effect at the right time save for suggesting hypotheticals not supported by the film.

You have also not addressed the fact that, had Bruce stumbled upon this earlier, it would have undone everything Lex was planning for. I recall the film outright stating that each letter was marked return to sender, and Bruce asking "why am I just finding out about this?" implying that this was clearly something that was going on for a while. This is a plan that relies on Bruce being unaware of what was going on until exactly the right moment, or else Lex's entire plan is in jeopardy. I'd be curious to see this scene again and find any details that would either support or disprove this claim as that is what I recall.

That aside, if what you suggested took place, we can reasonably assume that Lex's foresight borders on a near super power. He knows exactly where Bruce will be and what he will do on the day of the capital hearings, so he properly sets up the paperwork to arrive at precisely the necessary time so as to not arouse suspicion until Bruce inquires about Wally. And let's not write this off as "oh, Lex is just that smart" - this is a dumb plan for numerous reasons that I have already outlined, and it only works because this is a dumb movie. If you'd like, we can also use the word "convenience" to describe this plan instead of "contrivance", although both are appropriate.

I do have to wonder if you feel the need to try to poke holes like this in the plans/actions of other movie villains for which everything seems to fall into place and work out in their favor, often based on luck or convenience. We could pick apart so many movies in this way (including The Dark Knight), if we wanted to.

We certainly could, I never said otherwise. This movie just happens to be particularly bad, so flaws like this are more readily apparent and stand out more.

I'd like to take a step back: there are dozens, and I do mean dozens, of reasons why this is a bad movie. It doesn't work for a myriad of reasons; this isn't one of them. It's a nitpick, but of course one that is going to be staunchly defended.

Although I doubt it would actually change your perception of the film, I think you'll find Lex's full plan (a good chunk of which was cut from the film and rearranged in the theatrical cut) to be more coherent, well-planned, ruthless, and effective -- especially in terms of how he pushes Bruce's and particularly Clark's buttons to pit them against each other.

So earlier when you called Lex's plan layered and well thought out, were you referring only to the UC?
 
Lex's overall plan fell entirely apart for me when he kidnapped Lois so he could tell Ckark that he has his mom as well. Let's not even talk about Doomsday.:doh: Inwonder what would have happened if Bruce succeeded in killing Superman.:hmm Then what happens to DD?:funny:
 
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Lex's overall plan fell entirely apart for me when he kidnapped Lois so he could tell Ckark that he has his mom as well. Let's not even talk about Doomsday.:doh: Inwonder what would have happened if Bruce succeeded in killing Superman.:hmm Then what happens to DD?:funny:

At that point Luthor is basically saying "**** it! Everyone dies!". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Kind of like how you ignored my counter-argument that Lex's plan to make Bruce sad by sending him mean letters doesn't really make sense in the first place because, as you brought up, why would angry letters from a former employee concern the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company? Interesting indeed.

I honestly don't care to get into the real world semantics of how disability checks work. I asked questions and received adequate answers. I have not yet received an adequate answer in regards to the point I have been addressing, which is honestly more pertinent to discussing the inner-workings of this film.

You mean real world facts about how disability checks work, which dispelled your initial idea that Wally would have gone to the media or sued the company and completely unraveled Lex's whole plan.

No, convenient things happening at convenient times with nothing in the way of an explanation that only serve to push the plot forward are adequately deemed as "contrivances". This is one of those occasions. You have not done anything to show how Lex executed this plan properly to have the intended effect at the right time save for suggesting hypotheticals not supported by the film.

Lol, suggesting hypotheticals. That's one way to describe it, or you could say I've been offering potential explanations that make sense within the context of the film.

I mean, do you act like this whenever something happens in a film that isn't explicitly shown/explained but seems to be convenient or coincidental in some way? Was your mind absolutely boggled when Commissioner Loeb drank The Joker's poison literally half a second before Gordon realized it was there, seemingly at the same moment the judge got blown up in the car and The Joker crashed the party? The film does nothing to show how The Joker executed Loeb's murder at the exact right time and before Gordon could stop it, outside of assuming The Joker banked on Loeb choosing to drink his liquor in time.

You have also not addressed the fact that, had Bruce stumbled upon this earlier, it would have undone everything Lex was planning for. I recall the film outright stating that each letter was marked return to sender, and Bruce asking "why am I just finding out about this?" implying that this was clearly something that was going on for a while. This is a plan that relies on Bruce being unaware of what was going on until exactly the right moment, or else Lex's entire plan is in jeopardy. I'd be curious to see this scene again and find any details that would either support or disprove this claim as that is what I recall.

Or something Bruce thought was going on for awhile, since the Metropolis battle happened 18 months prior. We don't know when the checks started come back or all came back together, and it isn't really important. What's important is that, after seeing Wally on TV, Bruce asked about his checks, and they were brought to his attention at the Capitol bombing took place.

You're now the one talking in "hypotheticals". "What if this happened, or what if things didn't go this way?" Like I said before, we could do this for countless movies and stories (including some of the truly amazing ones) but it's beyond pointless.

Also, to address your hypothetical concern, it should be stated that Lex's entire plan didn't hinge completely on Bruce seeing those letters in that exact moment. "Ripe fruit, his hate; two years growing, but it did not take much to push him over. Little red notes, big bang – "you let your family die!""

As Lex says, Bruce's hate towards Superman had been growing for nearly two years. He had already actively pursued the Kryptonite to kill Superman, and failed. If Bruce had seen the returned checks earlier, it's highly unlikely any of that would have been able to be traced back to Lex or would have "undone" everything Lex had planned for. And if Bruce hadn't seen the checks in that exact moment as the Capitol blew up, it's not like his hate for Superman would have suddenly evaporated.

Let's not forget that the Capitol bombing had just taken place with Superman at the center of it all -- which was a huge part of pushing Bruce over the edge. The letters stoked the fire and helped to push Bruce to that "enough is enough" moment, but if he hadn't seen the letters and didn't decide to steal the K from Lexcorp immediately after the bombing, we can all reasonably assume he still would have done so eventually -- even if Lex had to find other ways to push his buttons.

That aside, if what you suggested took place, we can reasonably assume that Lex's foresight borders on a near super power. He knows exactly where Bruce will be and what he will do on the day of the capital hearings, so he properly sets up the paperwork to arrive at precisely the necessary time so as to not arouse suspicion until Bruce inquires about Wally. And let's not write this off as "oh, Lex is just that smart" - this is a dumb plan for numerous reasons that I have already outlined, and it only works because this is a dumb movie. If you'd like, we can also use the word "convenience" to describe this plan instead of "contrivance", although both are appropriate.

Not unlike The Joker in TDK, again, who seemed to know exactly what everyone would do or how they would act up until the finale.


So earlier when you called Lex's plan layered and well thought out, were you referring only to the UC?

Probably. After seeing the UC which is actually the complete version of the film, it's hard to unsee it or think back to the TC. In my mind, it's the only version of the film that should be watched.

But either way, even in the TC, this particular issue you seem to be having with the letters is not something I would describe as a flaw or plot hole. It seems like a weird thing to be harping on when, in your view, there are dozens and dozens of other legitimate problems with the film outside of "Lex had perfect timing with this part of his plan!"
 
Just because certain things happen in other movies shouldn't excuse then happening in this film. That's making excuses.
 
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