BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - Part 305

[Guts]

The Wonder Woman theme played by Tina Guo
[YT]0nq7AeFDAz4[/YT]

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Thanks for the reply. That's what I thought, but they never clarify that.

I think the way to see this Batman is not that he is a "killer"

He never flat out murders anyone...except trying to murder Superman.

His moral code has been modified by time and frustration. He no longer "minds" if criminals are permanently injured or die as a result of his actions. If they are doing something wrong and don't surrender or put up a fight, then whatever happens is on them in his mind. He has twisted his code to permit these deaths as necessary casualties to achieve his goals.

He has "convinced himself" that it is ok now to get "closer" to the line. He does not feel that he has actually crossed it until Martha.

This sadistic branding is part of that. He can close his eyes to the fact that they may be killed because of the brand because he has contorted his values to separate the two effects. He is using the criminals own behavior as his end goal. This is HIS manipulation...not unlike Lex. It is interesting and very human.

The discussion of Batman killing in this movie will seemingly endlessly go in circles in here. I watched the movie again last night and I understand what ZS meant by these deaths being "by proxy". I noticed that when Batman shoots he is essentially aiming at the vehicles that house the guns. The vehicles then blow up and by proxy the thugs are killed.

I think ZS even says so in an interview that Batman shoots at the vehicles and that it blows up and if you go with it, oh well. It's not as bad as if Batman was aiming his guns straight at the people themselves. I'm pretty sure that is his line of thinking in this movie, because you see that at the very end with KGBeast, he aims the gun at the tank instead of at KGBeast himself. He aimed at cars and the guns themselves when he was in his Batmobile or Batwing.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that people still died and he would know that if you are taking out a vehicle with a gun in it, that the person operating the gun is most likely gonna go with it. And I know this won't help with those that are adamant about the deaths Batman causes in this movie. But I do believe there is a distinction here. Basically, the mindset being, you come at me with heavy artillery, I'm not aiming at you but I'm taking out your heavy artillery with my weapons and whatever happens is your fault because you placed yourself in that position and started the gunfire.

 

[gdw]

People took issue with the Burton Batman for that too apparently and he didn't kill anyone in TDKReturns.

I believe they were referring to TDKRises.

Off topic, but Superman-centric: I was watching a recent news story involving corrupt cops treating people like crap and taunting them and such. And I all I thought of was, I want Superman to come in to teach them a lesson. Sadly, many wouldn't agree with me, and say "that's for Batman, Superman shouldn't do that" or something similar, and I will be like "why?"

Superman did this in the Golden Age, this is something he did and should continue to do. Police brutality and corruption right now is something Superman would fight in the '30s as he should do today. In fact, he was and still is to a degree a social crusader, or in today's words, a social activist. And yet, when they did a comic on the subject recently (during the Truth arc), a couple of people were like "I don't want Superman to do that" and I'm like "WHAT DO YOU WANT HIM TO DO THEN?!"

"Superman is about hope, he is about this and that" I get that, but those are not only ideas and no examples, they are also ideas that in fact link to the above examples, and yet fanboys don't like that even though it technically is what they were saying. In fact, I would go as far as to say they don't know what they want.

Comics, movies, etc. we need to bring this back to Superman in full force, not as a spec underneath other things.

 

[souperman]

The discussion of Batman killing in this movie will seemingly endlessly go in circles in here. I watched the movie again last night and I understand what ZS meant by these deaths being "by proxy". I noticed that when Batman shoots he is essentially aiming at the vehicles that house the guns. The vehicles then blow up and by proxy the thugs are killed.

I think ZS even says so in an interview that Batman shoots at the vehicles and that it blows up and if you go with it, oh well. It's not as bad as if Batman was aiming his guns straight at the people themselves. I'm pretty sure that is his line of thinking in this movie, because you see that at the very end with KGBeast, he aims the gun at the tank instead of at KGBeast himself. He aimed at cars and the guns themselves when he was in his Batmobile or Batwing.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that people still died and he would know that if you are taking out a vehicle with a gun in it, that the person operating the gun is most likely gonna go with it. And I know this won't help with those that are adamant about the deaths Batman causes in this movie. But I do believe there is a distinction here. Basically, the mindset being, you come at me with heavy artillery, I'm not aiming at you but I'm taking out your heavy artillery with my weapons and whatever happens is your fault because you placed yourself in that position and started the gunfire.

That is the reasoning for sure. Alfred tries to point this out over and over to Bruce, but lets face it...he is only a man servant...in Bruce's eyes...

 

[TeeKay]

Death by proxy is just a bs reasoning to me. What was he expecting to happen when he drove right into that car and then dragged it with a hook on his car and slammed it I top of another vehicle? Murder is still murder. Whether you use a gun, knife or whatever. You're still taking someone's life. Batman was a murderer in the film. That's a FACT.

 

[DeadStroke]

The thing is Affleck also had some level of creative control over the Batman part of the story,and he was very happy to do it.That tells me something as well.We have "heard" SS Batman is TAS Batman personified.We have heard the JL Batman is redeemed and focused and more traditional.Which makes me believe its all part of the long-term plan and we will all be able to enjoy the DCEU Batman more.

What does that have to do with Bats assuming she was Kryptonian (or something related) because of her clearly supernatural nature?

Yep.

The Honest Trailer...

All true. I hope to God Snyder watched this. He could learn from them. This trailer covers everything that was wrong with the movie, which is ironic considering that the 'Everything Wrong With' channel fails to point out plotholes and whats actually wrong with movies. It covered everything the fans disliked about it as well. I know that's an understatement but after 2 movies, Snyder really has to understand by now that his way, is not the right way.

Not saying Man of Steel was bad, but BvS was bad enough. There can't be more humor? Superman can't smile even a little?

As realistic and serious as everything was in BvS, when he kills Jimmy Olsen off, it's
like Snyder does that to try and avoid comic relief...but then there's some other humor in the movie, but just briefly between Batman and Superman, "Is she with you?"

If you can't have Jimmy Olsen, then why can you allow to have one, comedic moment in the movie? It doesn't make sense to me.

There was just very, very little 'fun' in the movie. I feel like by the end, when it gets to be more heroic and slightly theatrical, I'm thinking why? I feel like Snyder will almost refuse to have anything fun in it at all, because it won't be serious...like Clark Kent ripping the shirt open to reveal the "S", or Superman smiling or laughing in one scene. But everything has to be grounded/realistic. Yet...Snyder CGIed the f*** out of the final battle.

Snyder gets most aspects about Batman right though. The humor between Bruce and Alfred feels very reminiscent of The Dark Knight trilogy. But there's no humor or light in Superman's story at all. Batman's story doesn't need light, but Superman does...there has to be a balance. Superman just mopes and moans.

In many ways, I agree with the Honest trailer that he is the Superman we fear. There hasn't been a clear explanation for why Clark decides to be Superman. Most audiences new to Superman will think that 'oh, he just does this, not because he wants to, but because he thinks he should, but he thinks, 'Why do I bother?''

They have yet to make Superman cool. They made Captain America cool again in The Winter Soldier.

Aside from this issue in the movie...we waited 2 hours to see Batman and Superman fight. Another issue. While the Martha connection was interesting, I found that factor slightly disappointing into why that stopped the fight.

I think they took the Lex Luthor character too far in this movie. Firstly, because he had already figured out Superman and Batman's secret identities. He was so obsessed with Superman, like a mentally-ill person, rather than just a tough, powerful man who loathes Superman. But secondly, they took this character so far to even knowing who Superman's mother is and kidnapping her. The Luthor I know hasn't gone this far before.

I didn't like Lex's plans to try and defeat Superman. Now this Lex is in jail. The Luthor I know is a very hard person to stop, and hard to get in jail because he is clever. This Lex on the other hand, I think they made him too clever, but it wasn't believable.

Problem is, after kidnapping Superman's mother, where do you go from there with this character? I wanted to see a series where Superman and Lex Luthor are rivals. Where there is frequent antagonism. But someone who kidnapped your own mother and threatened to kill her--this has to make you hate this guy so much that you'd want to kill him and that you won't put up with him at all.

For me this was not the way to start Lex and Superman's antagonism. And he hates Superman, why? Because he believes Superman is the bad guy because he is all-powerful? In a way, it makes Lex almost, not the bad guy. This sucks to me. Lex Luthor should know clearly that he is wrong and that he is jealous of Superman. Trying to make Superman out to be a bad guy because he is all-powerful, should be an excuse.

The last thing Snyder needs to do is listen to them..

Oh look, we're back to talking about Civil War in a BvS thread

To be fair, thats a movie that can be ripped to shreds if you truly want to nitpick. Will be interesting to see if Screen Junkies goes there.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Death by proxy is just a bs reasoning to me. What was he expecting to happen when he drove right into that car and then dragged it with a hook on his car and slammed it I top of another vehicle? Murder is still murder. Whether you use a gun, knife or whatever. You're still taking someone's life. Batman was a murderer in the film. That's a FACT.

It's bs reasoning to you but it isn't to me. I believe murder involves premeditation as well, so I would say he isn't a murderer. Had he killed Superman then yes, he would have been a murderer. Do we know the people in the first car were killed? Maybe they died, maybe they didn't. I can't say for sure. Perhaps they also got out of the car after Batman flipped it and before Batman attached the cable to it. ZS, probably would had them screaming or close ups on them if they were still in the car while being dragged around. As for the second car, which takes the impact of the first car being dropped on it, again, I don't know if they died for a fact. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I just can't say for sure, so I can believe they survived just like you can believe that everyone died during that scene.

 

[souperman]

Death by proxy is just a bs reasoning to me. What was he expecting to happen when he drove right into that car and then dragged it with a hook on his car and slammed it I top of another vehicle? Murder is still murder. Whether you use a gun, knife or whatever. You're still taking someone's life. Batman was a murderer in the film. That's a FACT.

Not suggesting Batman is a police officer but as example.

Q:
A group of armed criminals just robbed a bank and shot a teller.

They jump in their car and race off at high speed.

The cops give high speed pursuit.

After many miles and attempts to safely stop the dangerous robbers, the cops put down spike strips and blow out the criminals tires causing the car to crash and flip end over end killing some of the bad guy passengers...

Did the cops "murder" the bad guy passengers?

 

[Predator jp]

i haven't seen Civil War yet so spoilar tag would be appreciated. this is BvS thread after all.

 

[souperman]

Problem is, after kidnapping Superman's mother, where do you go from there with this character? I wanted to see a series where Superman and Lex Luthor are rivals. Where there is frequent antagonism. But someone who kidnapped your own mother and threatened to kill her--this has to make you hate this guy so much that you'd want to kill him and that you won't put up with him at all.

For me this was not the way to start Lex and Superman's antagonism. And he hates Superman, why? Because he believes Superman is the bad guy because he is all-powerful? In a way, it makes Lex almost, not the bad guy. This sucks to me. Lex Luthor should know clearly that he is wrong and that he is jealous of Superman. Trying to make Superman out to be a bad guy because he is all-powerful, should be an excuse.

In Lex's mind Superman is "bad" because he challenges the status quo. He is an anomaly that interferes with Lex's plans, - plus, he is intimidated by his power...sorta like daddy Lex.

One thing to keep in mind is that these films have some sort of time scale and overall arc for all the films to be one big long interconnected story.

In order to get all the BIG cool bad guys and stories in, other smaller story lines and characters like Jimmy are minimized or sacrificed to make room for them. These "other" smaller stories like ongoing interactions and problems between Lex and Superman are implied to be taking place between the big movies when we look in on them again. At least that's the way I look at it.

 

[Flint Marko]

To be fair, thats a movie that can be ripped to shreds if you truly want to nitpick. Will be interesting to see if Screen Junkies goes there.

This isn't the place to "rip it to shreds", which is my entire point.

 

[Bagide]

Death by proxy is just a bs reasoning to me. What was he expecting to happen when he drove right into that car and then dragged it with a hook on his car and slammed it I top of another vehicle? Murder is still murder. Whether you use a gun, knife or whatever. You're still taking someone's life. Batman was a murderer in the film. That's a FACT.

He's the BATMAN. Beginning and the End. They should have run,they tempted fate,they paid.

 

[Shadow Moses]

I think a lot of this has to do more with Jesse's performance than how the character was written. Just imagine all the same lines delivered in the way Kevin Spacey plays Frank Underwood without any of the tics, stutters or odd mannerisms that Jesse injected into the role. I believe the character would have been more universally accepted had it been played the Underwood route even with all the same lines.

Very true but who is to say it wasn't Zack that directed him to perform that way? He is the director after all.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

This isn't the place to "rip it to shreds", which is my entire point.

I could go to the CA:CW boards everyday and rip it to shreds starting with what I said a page back here and continuing on to other things but I honestly have no desire. I make a comment once in awhile if the topic comes up and I move on. I know plenty of people enjoy that movie and I'm not the type of person to rain on a parade. Plus, I would rather focus on something positive for myself, such as my enjoyment of BvS, rather than spend negative energy on something else.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Very true but who is to say it wasn't Zack that directed him to perform that way? He is the director after all.

Fair point

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Sleiek]

I could go to the CA:CW boards everyday and rip it to shreds starting with what I said a page back here and continuing on to other things but I honestly have no desire. I make a comment once in awhile if the topic comes up and I move on. I know plenty of people enjoy that movie and I'm not the type of person to rain on a parade. Plus, I would rather focus on something positive for myself, such as my enjoyment of BvS, rather than spend negative energy on something else.

Same as me, I don't spend time in boards for a movie I didn't particularly enjoy.

FWIW, I did enjoy CW, so I spend some time there.

Anyway back to BvS, looks like WB is promoting BvS UE at SDCC2016.

 

[The Joker]

LOL brilliant

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Same as me, I don't spend time in boards for a movie I didn't particularly enjoy.

FWIW, I did enjoy CW, so I spend some time there.

Anyway back to BvS, looks like WB is promoting BvS UE at SDCC2016.

Anything in particular planned?

 

[Sleiek]

They brought the memorial statue to Comic Con.

Source

 

[FlawlessVictory]

They brought the memorial statue to Comic Con.

Source

Cool

 

[gdw]

Not suggesting Batman is a police officer but as example.

Q:
A group of armed criminals just robbed a bank and shot a teller.

They jump in their car and race off at high speed.

The cops give high speed pursuit.

After many miles and attempts to safely stop the dangerous robbers, the cops put down spike strips and blow out the criminals tires causing the car to crash and flip end over end killing some of the bad guy passengers...

Did the cops "murder" the bad guy passengers?

Unfortunately, police are held to a completely different rule set than the rest of us peasants.

However, any other person committing an action that inadvertently leads to the death of a human would be considered to have, at the very LEAST, committed manslaughter.

With the kinds of scenarios we are talking about in the Batmobile sequence, they would be, minimum, second degree murder.

There's a categorical difference between attempting to stop a fleeing vehicle by taking out their tires, then they end up crashing, vs intentionally ramming a sitting vehicle with a much more massive vehicle, flipping them into the air. That's a deliberate action intended to cause the crash that follows. Similarly with then dragging said car, with passengers, and throwing it onto another car.

If anyone intentionally launched a car at another stopped, occupied, vehicle, that would absolutely be a contender for first degree.

ON TOP of all that, there's "felony murder," where in, any death caused during the commission of a felony, regardless of intent, can be elevated, in the eyes of the law, to murder.

 

[gdw]

It's bs reasoning to you but it isn't to me. I believe murder involves premeditation as well, so I would say he isn't a murderer. Had he killed Superman then yes, he would have been a murderer. Do we know the people in the first car were killed? Maybe they died, maybe they didn't. I can't say for sure. Perhaps they also got out of the car after Batman flipped it and before Batman attached the cable to it. ZS, probably would had them screaming or close ups on them if they were still in the car while being dragged around. As for the second car, which takes the impact of the first car being dropped on it, again, I don't know if they died for a fact. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I just can't say for sure, so I can believe they survived just like you can believe that everyone died during that scene.

Wow, seriously?

 

[TeeKay]

It's bs reasoning to you but it isn't to me. I believe murder involves premeditation as well, so I would say he isn't a murderer. Had he killed Superman then yes, he would have been a murderer. Do we know the people in the first car were killed? Maybe they died, maybe they didn't. I can't say for sure. Perhaps they also got out of the car after Batman flipped it and before Batman attached the cable to it. ZS, probably would had them screaming or close ups on them if they were still in the car while being dragged around. As for the second car, which takes the impact of the first car being dropped on it, again, I don't know if they died for a fact. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I just can't say for sure, so I can believe they survived just like you can believe that everyone died during that scene.

So you're telling me that NOBODY in the cars that were protecting the truck that Batman took out died. I mean you're telling me a human can survive that? Even the car Batman directly shot at and it completely fell apart because of the rounds of his billets and started flipping and he ran straight through it and exploded. Those guys survived too? Come on guys, seriously? Like omg.

 

[Sleiek]

So you're telling me that NOBODY in the cars that were protecting the truck that Batman took out died. I mean you're telling me a human can survive that? Even the ar Batman directly shot at and it completely fell apart because of the rounds of his billets and started flipping and he ran straight through it and exploded. Those guys survived too? And we're back to assuming. Come on guys. Like omg.

The only people I can tell for certain died in that chase sequence are the occupants of the car that had the gattling gun mounted at the rear end.

This is ridiculous. 5 months later and still the same issue.