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BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - Part 306

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Yeah....I'd buy that if it were addressed in any way, but it isn't. Batman just kills a bunch of guys to satisfy Snyder's murder ***** and nobody says anything after the fact.

I still don't think you're getting it. When I am explaining the consequences of being a vigilante, I am not talking about the consequences of casualties incurred in a fight. I'm talking about the film not shying away from realistically depicting the truth about fighting an army of mercenaries when one is seriously outnumbered. Sometimes it is not going to be possible to prevent every bad guy from getting hurt or killed. Sometimes when you're fighting for your life and the life of an innocent civilian, there may not be a full proof way to save the day and not seriously hurt anyone. That's what I think it means to show the realistic consequences of a good guy fighting an army of bad guys.

I don't think Batman killed to satisfy Snyder. I think Batman killed because Snyder didn't want to sanitize violence. In other Batman films, Batman straight up kills people or appears to kill people, but audiences don't notice or the narrative pretends everyone is okay. I also think Batman killed in Snyder's film because Batman was characterized as a hero who had lost his way and still had a long way to go even after he pulled himself back from the precipice of premeditated murder. Nobody says anything because there is no in-story "no kill code" rule that is applied to Batman. He's a vigilante who defended himself against bad guys, and in the process some of those bad guys were hurt. When police do this sort of thing, it's not controversial, so why would it cause controversy in the world in which Batman inhabits?
 
Batman killed because Snyder thinks it looks cool. Hell, Snyder doesn't even think Batman is necessarily killing people.

Snyder on Batman killing
“I tried to do it in a technical way. There’s a great YouTube video that shows all the kills in the Christopher Nolan movies even though we would perceive them as movies where he doesn’t kill anyone. I think there’s 42 potential kills that Batman does! Also, it goes back and includes even the Tim Burton Batman movies where this reputation as a guy that doesn’t kill comes from."

“So, I tried to do it by proxy. Shoot the car they’re in, the car blows up or the grenade would go off in the guy’s hand, or when he shoots the tank and the guy pretty much lights the tank [himself]. I perceive it as him not killing directly, but if the bad guy’s are associated with a thing that happens to blow up, he would say that that’s not really my problem.

As a huge Batman fan, that's some messed up thinking from Snyder.
 
It's like he's never really read a batman comic.
 
I still don't think you're getting it.

I am. I get what you're arguing, I just don't agree with any of it or that it was Snyder's intention to make some sort of statement about consequences. Look at the quote that was posted below. Snyder had Batman kill people because he thought it was awesome, not to make any sort of commentary.

When police do this sort of thing, it's not controversial, so why would it cause controversy in the world in which Batman inhabits?

Unrelated, but I'm guessing you haven't watched the news at any point in the last few years because yes, police officers killing people absolutely causes controversy, particularly when it's under suspicious circumstances. With Batman it'd be even worse because he's not even an appointed officer of the law, just some dude running around murdering criminals.
 
I am. I get what you're arguing, I just don't agree with any of it or that it was Snyder's intention to make some sort of statement about consequences. Look at the quote that was posted below. Snyder had Batman kill people because he thought it was awesome, not to make any sort of commentary.

Okay, that's some pretty funky reading comprehension. Nowhere in that statement does Snyder say Batman killing people is awesome. It's the exact opposite. He's saying that the previous Batman films did not realistically present the consequences of what Batman has to do in the midst of a life or death fight. He's saying it is ridiculous to put this stuff on screen and pretend that nothing bad ever happens.

Moreover, this is a quote from an essay on escapist violence in Snyder's DCCU films that I liked, and it seems relevant:

Zack Snyder has, on more than one occasion, talked about how consequences are very important to him. How he can’t have characters mowing down people without showing their bodies and the grisliness of the action. How he thinks it’s irresponsible and glorifying violence not to do that. In that respect, Batman v Superman is a deconstruction of the concept of consequence-free action. If you want to see the cool batmobile rampage through the streets, you will, but you will also see the consequences of it ramming through cars. You want to see Batman beating up criminals? Okay, but you’ll see how their limbs snap when he hits them and how they scream in agony when he takes them down. Truly, there is nothing wrong with this, nor is there anything wrong with Nolan’s approach; both are different and there’s room for both. The issue is we don’t need everything to be escapist. Sometimes facing the reality of the situation is necessary.

In this interview with TIME (start interview at 2:50) during the release of Sucker Punch, Snyder talks about his love for the film Blue Velvet in part because it depicted the truth of violence. It didn't sugar coat it. The violence was real because it has real consequences, and in being real, Snyder believed the depiction of violence was more responsible. Snyder also said: "I'm a big advocate of the consequences of these movies...Without the consequences, they're slightly irresponsible in that it's unconditional violence" (Source). Both statements are utterly consistent. From Snyder's comments on the Nolan films to his comments about violence in other projects, Snyder believes that the only responsible way to depict violence is to show the real consequences of it. The real threat of injury, the real blood, the real pain, and the real possibility of death.

Unrelated, but I'm guessing you haven't watched the news at any point in the last few years because yes, police officers killing people absolutely causes controversy, particularly when it's under suspicious circumstances. With Batman it'd be even worse because he's not even an appointed officer of the law, just some dude running around murdering criminals.

What suspicious circumstances? Known associates of convicted criminal, Lex Luthor, were intercepted by The Batman at the Port of Gotham. Later, an old woman and pillar of her small town community, could testify that the KGBeast and his goons terrorized her until The Batman arrived. Clark tried to write a story just taking on the brands and mainstream media representative, Perry White, shot down the idea because it didn't have a chance to make in impact due to the death of the "American conscience." The real world news absolutely lionizes heroes who take on bad guys even if those bad guys get killed. Americans eat up the "Nothing stops a bad guy with a gun than a good guy with a gun" nonsense. People get mad when cops or people of color are killed without cause. People don't get mad when criminals are killed by other criminals or heroes.
 
Okay, that's some pretty funky reading comprehension.

I read it just fine. It's him performing amazing feats of mental gymnastics to try and explain why it's okay for Batman to kill people. Again, Batman is a fictional character, and one who frequently saves the day without murdering people. He murders people in this movie because Snyder thought that was cool.

In this interview with TIME (start interview at 2:50) during the release of Sucker Punch

You lost me as soon as you mentioned Sucker Punch.
 
Batman shouldn't kill, unless he has no choice to. That is the best Batman, and generally the one who features in the best stories.
 
I read it just fine. It's him performing amazing feats of mental gymnastics to try and explain why it's okay for Batman to kill people. Again, Batman is a fictional character, and one who frequently saves the day without murdering people. He murders people in this movie because Snyder thought that was cool.

All I see is you performing mental gymnastics to keep ragging on Snyder for something he didn't say. Snyder didn't say Batman killing people is cool. He's saying what is cool is showing the realistic consequences of violence instead of pretending Batman can do what he always does in films and television, which is to behave violently with little to no evidence of that violence portrayed onscreen.

You lost me as soon as you mentioned Sucker Punch.

Are you for real? How do you expect anyone to take your argument seriously if your kneejerk response to anything that might counter your opinion is to close your eyes and ears and run away? It's a blatant example of bias run amok.
 
Batman shouldn't kill, unless he has no choice to. That is the best Batman, and generally the one who features in the best stories.

How do you define or decide when conditions meet the "has no other choice" criteria? Can you really say, for example, that Batman could see he had another and better choice besides throwing the crate towards the man in the warehouse but took that likely deadly action anyway?
 
How do you define or decide when conditions meet the "has no other choice" criteria? Can you really say, for example, that Batman could see he had another and better choice besides throwing the crate towards the man in the warehouse but took that likely deadly action anyway?

When he killed Talia it was ok. If he didn't, the city would have been destroyed. Batman should be able to take on lots of thugs without killing them.
 
When he killed Talia it was ok. If he didn't, the city would have been destroyed. Batman should be able to take on lots of thugs without killing them.

Hypocrisy then. The assumption that the situation with Talia did not offer alternative options while the scores of goons guarding Martha did is erroneous and not based on any actual facts or detailed analysis of the choices available. It's simply this: the one I like is okay, the one I do not like is not okay.
 
Hypocrisy then. The assumption that the situation with Talia did not offer alternative options while the scores of goons guarding Martha did is erroneous and not based on any actual facts or detailed analysis of the choices available. It's simply this: the one I like is okay, the one I do not like is not okay.

It isn't hypocrisy. Batman can always take out lots of goons without killing. It is something he is known for. Talia being a threat to the entire city with a bomb is not comparable to that. There was no need for him to brand people knowing they would die because of it either.
 
Batman killed because Snyder thinks it looks cool. Hell, Snyder doesn't even think Batman is necessarily killing people.

Snyder on Batman killing


As a huge Batman fan, that's some messed up thinking from Snyder.

I don't get where exactly from that interview quote you get the impression Snyder thinks it is "cool" to have Batman lay some casualties.

The same question applies to MbJ. Where did Snyder say he thinks it is "awesome" to have deaths by proxy?
 
Are you for real? How do you expect anyone to take your argument seriously if your kneejerk response to anything that might counter your opinion is to close your eyes and ears and run away? It's a blatant example of bias run amok.

Any other example might have been fine but Sucker Punch is such a train wreck of a film that I can't take any argument concerning it seriously without laughing. I'm sorry.

It isn't hypocrisy. Batman can always take out lots of goons without killing. It is something he is known for.

Ding ding ding! Someone gets it!
 
Any other example might have been fine but Sucker Punch is such a train wreck of a film that I can't take any argument concerning it seriously without laughing. I'm sorry.

Well there's where you prove your ignorance and bias because it was an interview Snyder gave during the Sucker Punch press tour about his film influences, and had nothing to do with the film itself. There was no argument made in favor of the film in the statement I cited from the interview. It's hilarious the lame excuses you will use to get out of engaging with simple and straightforward ideas.

Ding ding ding! Someone gets it!

Nope. Batman has also been shown to be capable of handling situations like the one he was in with Talia in TDKR, so I still don't see the difference.
 
It isn't hypocrisy. Batman can always take out lots of goons without killing. It is something he is known for. Talia being a threat to the entire city with a bomb is not comparable to that. There was no need for him to brand people knowing they would die because of it either.

The film shares your opinion of Batman's brands. Batman has not taken out loads of goons without killing. He killed a bunch of men when he burned the building where the League of Shadows trained him in Batman Begins. He killed numerous low level bad guys in the Burton films.

The level of the threat is irrelevant to the force needed to eliminate it. The question remains if Batman had no other options than killing Talia by proxy in TDKR.
 
It's hilarious the lame excuses you will use to get out of engaging with simple and straightforward ideas.

My dog ate the homework teacher, honest!




Yup. If this were a DKR thread I'd probably be talking about how I disliked his handling of the Talia thing as well. But it isn't so I'm not. The Nolan films were far stronger than either of the Snyder films in practically every manner, but they aren't without their flaws or dumb creative choices too.
 
Is it considered murder if he tries to kill Superman because murder is defined as premeditated killing of a "human" by another human?
Superman isn't human. He's an alien.
But we do see him as a man aswell so.....and a God. Hmmm.
It made complete sense why Batman wanted to kill Superman because with all that power he has if he turned bad he would kill us all but we all know that it was wrong for Batman to do that.Which is understandable but we know Superman is a hero but for Batman he didn't care about that he wanted to prevent the world from an evil Superman (which we might get in Justice League anyway).
Batman has seen the destruction and killing Superman has done while trying to save Metropolis (think that's how you spell it) and the world but dreads of what might happen if he turned evil. It makes sense but we know it was wrong because you could say that about any hero that might turn bad. Batman was just at the end of his rope and had enough.
Batman gets redeemed by the end of BvS anyway when he saved Martha for Superman.
Batman spent the movie trying to kill Superman but didn't realise the consequences that we need Superman because of a much larger threat than him. Now the world is open to that threat because of Superman's sacrifice and now we need to form the Justice League. Makes sense.
Batman did alot of manslaughter in BvS and I see what Snyder is taking about.
Batman doesn't directly kill anyone. The branding is what is too far for this Batman and trying to kill Superman when he had no way to defend himself because he was hit with kryptonite gas just like when the waynes were defenceless against joe chill and his gun is what I would call Murder so yeah it would be murder if Batman killed Superman but in a legal sense he isn't human and Batman kills non humans all the time.
 
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The film shares your opinion of Batman's brands. Batman has not taken out loads of goons without killing. He killed a bunch of men when he burned the building where the League of Shadows trained him in Batman Begins. He killed numerous low level bad guys in the Burton films.

The level of the threat is irrelevant to the force needed to eliminate it. The question remains if Batman had no other options than killing Talia by proxy in TDKR.

Those people in the burning building had a chance to escape. It isn't the same. People complained about the killing in Burtons movies too. This is well known. Fans still enjoyed them because they were good movies though, despite the killing.

Talia had a bomb that would have destroyed the whole city that did not have long before it went off, so understandably Batman had to act fast an do what he did. It is not comparable at all.
 
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The goons in the cars with the HMG also had the chance to escape when they saw the batwing. But what did they do, they played with fire and got burned. :lmao:
 
Batman shouldn't kill, unless he has no choice to. That is the best Batman, and generally the one who features in the best stories.

I suppose so; I think what matters most is whether it fits within the context of the story.

As for the best stories - sure. That's because most writers opt to keep that part of his code. And that's why - there's no right or wrong there.

It's particularly interesting..especially when you consider the amount of people he has harmed indirectly ("inspiring" people to become supervillains, keeping folks like Joker alive).

Joker is crazy (killing off crazy people might not be the best solution), but I am sure Bruce could spend some money on making Arkham more secure - and maybe try to get better treatment for folks like Joker.

Not a lot of stories explore that aspect...which is a shame. I guess it makes sense, you need Joker to escape Arkham and wreck havoc.
 
I suppose so; I think what matters most is whether it fits within the context of the story.

As for the best stories - sure. That's because most writers opt to keep that part of his code. And that's why - there's no right or wrong there.

It's particularly interesting..especially when you consider the amount of people he has harmed indirectly ("inspiring" people to become supervillains, keeping folks like Joker alive).

Joker is crazy (killing off crazy people might not be the best solution), but I am sure Bruce could spend some money on making Arkham more secure - and maybe try to get better treatment for folks like Joker.

Not a lot of stories explore that aspect...which is a shame. I guess it makes sense, you need Joker to escape Arkham and wreck havoc.

The reason most writers keep the code is because he is a better character and more interesting with it. Unlike Snyder, they know how to use him best. Guys like Joker are obviously kept around because the are popular, but Batman does not have to kill them if he does not want to. He already does more than enough for justice. Generally, what Joker and others do after Batman brings them in is more the failing of the justice system. Him inspiring the rise of "freaks" like TLH called it, is the type of response or escalation that will always happen, like Gordon described at the end of BB.
 
The reason most writers keep the code is because he is a better character and more interesting with it. Unlike Snyder, they know how to use him best. Guys like Joker are obviously kept around because the are popular, but Batman does not have to kill them if he does not want to. He already does more than enough for justice. Generally, what Joker and others do after Batman brings them in is more the failing of the justice system. Him inspiring the rise of "freaks" like TLH called it, is the type of response or escalation that will always happen, like Gordon described at the end of BB.

That's arguable...More interesting? Perhaps. For the cyclical nature of superhero comics, Batman's code is very much useful (and necessary)...I would argue that plays a far bigger role in keeping his code intact than people thinking it's a better version of the character (And it could be, depending on who's writing it).

Sure it is. But, considering Bruce has gone out of his way to ensure justice is done (by catching them; foiling their plans and all), don't you think it's sort of his responsibility to ensure they get what they need?

Responsibility might be the wrong word, or maybe not. He did take that upon himself.

Perhaps. But, you can always make the argument that Gotham would have been better off with a Batman (sure, there's still the mob, organized crime and all). But, at least they didn't have to worry too much about Super villains (especially the crazy ones Batman tends to attract).
 
That's arguable...More interesting? Perhaps. For the cyclical nature of superhero comics, Batman's code is very much useful (and necessary)...I would argue that plays a far bigger role in keeping his code intact than people thinking it's a better version of the character (And it could be, depending on who's writing it).

Sure it is. But, considering Bruce has gone out of his way to ensure justice is done (by catching them; foiling their plans and all), don't you think it's sort of his responsibility to ensure they get what they need?

Responsibility might be the wrong word, or maybe not. He did take that upon himself.

Perhaps. But, you can always make the argument that Gotham would have been better off with a Batman (sure, there's still the mob, organized crime and all). But, at least they didn't have to worry too much about Super villains (especially the crazy ones Batman tends to attract).

The no-kill code has been part of the character since 1940. It is a big part of the character. It is one of the most important aspects of the character and much more than something to keep popular villains around.
1383967384562245297.jpg


There is little to back up him being a better character when killing, when there are far more great stories with him not killing.

I think he has tried to help some villains before, but it didn't work out, but there is no reason he should be expected to kill them if he does not want to. Regarding Gotham being better without him, I am not sure. It has been mentioned that villains have been created as a response to him, but I cannot remember ATM if they ever looked at whether Gotham would be better of without him in depth. If such a story was ever done, I highly doubt that they would make it clear that Batman has caused more damage than he has done good.
 
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