BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[LEVITIKUZ]

So will you accept that Perry White is the dumbest person on Earth for not knowing who Clark is? You can't, that completely makes the tone of the movie campy like Raimi's Spiderman movies. You want Perry to be Jay Jonah Jameson then?

On your logic then you must be upset that Superman isn't wearing underwear on the outside.

Perry White already hired a journalist who doesn't do his job right, doesn't care about an interesting piece focusing on Batman but cares about sports, and who has no journalism experience.

You're assuming that Perry in the DCEU is one smart cat. Sort of like how all of us have to assume what is the plot of Batman v Superman in order to understand it.

 

[The Guard]

I agree. The Clark persona was handled terribly in BvS. It was almost completely disregarded. It's a real missed opportunity to add some fun contrast between supes and Clark. I was also hoping we'd finally see Clark do some reporting and help some folks in a smaller way, but nope. They told us he was reporting on batman and left it at that. Even Clark, in his minuscule appearance, was frowning constantly.

First, I'll point out that looking at Clark and Superman as two distinctly different characters is the wrong way to go. Whether they act or operate differently, these are two sides of the same character. So scenes where he is Superman or Clark inform his character, period.

If that first scene between Clark and Lois and two sequences about his ideas on reporting weren't in the film, I'd agree with your statements.

But I can't agree that two sequences where Clark talks about standing up for the rights of the poor and what the Daily Planet should stand for are not sufficient to show that he was trying to help people in some small way. At all.

This wasn't an episode of LOIS AND CLARK with a specific investigation that forms the lion's share of the narrative. There's a larger story at play here. Clark's reporting needs to serve the larger narrative, and it does, fleshing out the issues surrounding Batman's morality and brutality and showing how they differ in their social ideologies.

Granted, for you it seems to be largely about how much he smiled, since you specifically mention that. Can't help you there.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

If it has gotten to the point where someone is against the basic concept of a character, they are probably better off watching or reading something else.

It is like going to watch Jurassic Park and then complaining that there are dinosaurs in it.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

I've always felt like a good idea would be Clark investigating and reporting on all the stuff Lex has done to aid the city.

I always felt that Superman likes to give credit where credit is due and wants Lex to get his credit for helping the people of Metopolis rebuild.

Meanwhile have Lois investigate the big bad Bat since she's always likes investigating risky stuff. Instead of investigating a special bullet.

If Lex just use a normal bullet, Lois would have had no story arc in this film at all.

 

[The Guard]

I doubt Clark was "killed off" because they don't want Superman to have a secret identity. It's far more likely that the logistics of the planned JUSTICE LEAGUE film just don't allow for a lot of focus on the public Clark Kent side of the character, so they needed a way around that. I'm sure Daily Planet Clark will be back, assuming there are future Superman films.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Wow, what a horrible thing to say.

There's nothing wrong with disliking Cavill. I have no beef with that at all. But this attitude that he sucks is a fact and others have terrible taste? Awful, awful thing to say.

Also, it's possible to be attracted to him (I am not afraid to admit I am) and think he's a good actor (I do, most of the time). If I did think he sucked, I'd just admit it and continue thinking he's hot. Also, many of the people who like him on here are male. Are all of them attracted to him? Oh, I guess those are the ones that have terrible taste.

That whole post of yours comes off like someone who's angry that other people like something he doesn't like. It's fine to dislike the movie and anything about it, but taking your anger out on other posters who have differing opinions is ridiculous and rude.

Don't be such a baby

 

[MrsKent26]

If that first scene between Clark and Lois and two sequences about his ideas on reporting weren't in the film, I'd agree.

But I can't agree that two sequences where Clark talks about standing up for the rights of the poor and what the Daily Planet should stand for are not sufficient to show that he was trying to help people in some small way. At all.

This wasn't an episode of LOIS AND CLARK with a specific investigation that forms the lion's share of the narrative.

Clark's reporting needs to serve the larger narrative, and it does, fleshing out the issues surrounding Batman's morality and brutality.

Granted, for you it seems to be largely about how much he smiled as Clark and Superman, since you specifically mention it. Can't help you there.

The smiling thing seems to be sticking point with you, so I'll address it.

I'm not saying that Clark or supes should always smile. It's fine to have sad/angry scenes in a movie. But BvS presented a situation where that was the majority of his scenes. The Lois/Clark scenes are the only reprieve we got for supes in the whole movie. It was so unbalanced. When I think about superman in the movie, all I think about it his scowl/pained expression because that was his default look. Injecting some joy/fun/charm would not only have made this portrayal more balanced, but it would probably make it seem like superman had an actual personality.

As for you other comments, it's nice to hear one little conversation about reporting from Clark, but it would have been beneficial to have just a couple shots of him actually doing that. Or it would have been nice to show just a little fun in general for the Clark persona. Perhaps with the DP gang or something.

 

[MrsKent26]

Don't be such a baby

I'm not. That was a reasonable reply to your post.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'm not. That was a reasonable reply to your post.

It was pretty whiny

Cavill is pretty awful, I'm so shocked that there aren't more complaints about his lack of talent

Pretty face nothing else

It's even worse when Captain America (a similar character) is such a success played by such a great actor

Even if you like the **** that is Cavill, you can't honestly think he was born for the role lol . He is serviceable at the very best

 

[Sleiek]

Yours was a whiny post too. No offense.

 

[Corko]

It was pretty whiny

Cavill is pretty awful I'm so shocked that there aren't more complaints about his lack of talent

Pretty face nothing else

It's even worse when Captain America (a similar character) is such a success played by such a great actor

Even if you like the **** that is Cavill, you can't honestly think he was born for the role lol . He is serviceable at the very best

Maybe because a lot don't think that

 

[MrsKent26]

It was pretty whiny

Cavill is pretty awful, I'm so shocked that there aren't more complaints about his lack of talent

Pretty face nothing else

It's even worse when Captain America (a similar character) is such a success played by such a great actor

Even if you like the **** that is Cavill, you can't honestly think he was born for the role lol . He is serviceable at the very best

It wasn't whiny at all. I was calling out some obvious rudeness on your part. It seems that rudeness is continuing, so I'm not even going to bother conversing with you about Cavill. You clearly have no interest in my opinion on the subject. That's all I've got to say to you until you decide to calm down and be polite.

 

[The Guard]

The smiling thing seems to be sticking point with you, so I'll address it.

With all due respect, the smiling thing seems to be a sticking point with you, which is why I said as much.

In a film largely concerned with presenting how it would be a burden to be Superman, it makes sense to me that Clark doesnt go around smiling and having a good time.

We can argue all day long about whether that's what should have happened or not, but frankly I find that subject particularly boring and repetitive. We all know how they can improve the portrayal of this Clark/Superman.

I cannot agree that because the film did not present more sequences of Clark having fun or smiling, that its handling of him was "terrible".

As for you other comments, it's nice to hear one little conversation about reporting from Clark, but it would have been beneficial to have just a couple shots of him actually doing that.

Or it would have been nice to show just a little fun in general for the Clark persona. Perhaps with the DP gang or something.

There are apparently entire sequences where he did just that which were cut for runtime purposes. I don't know what to tell you.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

It was pretty whiny

Cavill is pretty awful, I'm so shocked that there aren't more complaints about his lack of talent

Pretty face nothing else

It's even worse when Captain America (a similar character) is such a success played by such a great actor

Even if you like the **** that is Cavill, you can't honestly think he was born for the role lol . He is serviceable at the very best

Geez, no need to act like this just because you don't like MrsKent26's opinion, you're being incredibly rude about this.

 

[shauner111]

For me Cavill is fine for team-ups, but he's not good enough to lead his own Superman movie. Some scenes, he's fine where he doesn't have to say anything. When they give him lines, it's just bad. I can't tell if it's because he's unsure about the accent, or if he just sucks.

Gadot is another one. She had a handful of scenes. She was fine as a small character and I think she'll do a solid job in Justice League where she shares a lot of screen time with 5 others. But I don't have confidence in her leading her own Wonder Woman movie. Her delivery, when there's dialogue, is just average.

I feel the same way about Jason Mamoa. So it seems like Snyder wasn't focused on casting good actors (though Ezra Miller is a great catch). It's like they cast good actors in supporting roles, to help the lesser actors (the leading heroes). I don't think it's enough. Chris Evans isn't that great but he's much better than Cavill, and he's improving a lot recently. You believe what he says as Cap. You got Downey, Sam Jackson, Rudd, Scarlett, Ruffalo, Mackie etc. I mean, their heroes are played by great actors. They can help sell the material even when it's not well-written. A bad or average actor is up s**ts creek if the material is bad. Gal Gadot better hope she's working with a good script. Man of Steel would have been a much bigger disaster without Russell Crowe, Amy Adams, Kevin Costner, Diane Lane, Michael Shannon and Laurence Fishburn surrounding Henry. If they had actors on Cavill's level in those supporting roles, we would be looking at MOS like it's a piece of s**t. They really lucked out with that cast. Imagine if Affleck and Irons didn't take these roles!?!

 

[MrsKent26]

With all due respect, the smiling thing seems to be a sticking point with you, which is why I said as much.

In a film largely concerned with presenting how it would be a burden to be Superman, it makes sense to me that Clark doesnt go around smiling and having a good time.

We can argue all day long about whether that's what should have happened or not, but frankly I find that subject particularly boring and repetitive. We all know how they can improve the portrayal of this Clark/Superman.

I cannot agree that because the film did not present more sequences of Clark having fun or smiling, that its handling of him was "terrible".

It is a sticking point with me. I will absolutely own up to that. I found this portrayal overly dour, which is saying something coming from someone who loves TDKT and DD on Netflix. I'll also admit that much of this is personal taste. I wanted a movie that doesn't focus mainly on the negatives of being superman, but instead displays a balance of negatives and joy. To me, superman felt very "unsuperman" in BvS and that's why I found this version of the character terrible. Although...terrible might be too strong of a word. Less than ideal, perhaps.

There are apparently entire sequences where he did just that which were cut for runtime purposes. I don't know what to tell you.

It's a shame. It seems like they tried to do too much with one film and that led to certain things seeming unfinished.

 

[AndrewOz]

So the fact that Bruce and Clark have mothers with the same name is convenient.

So?

Movies, especially superhero movies of late, often rely on various coincidences.

Why is this such a huge issue for people? Why, in this movie, are movies suddenly not allowed to have coincidences happen?

Why, in this film, is it suddenly poor writing to massage reality a little, to have Clark say "Martha" instead of "My mom"? I get why it's not uber realistic...but at the end of the day, this is a movie. Movies don't always present the most realistic series of events.

If the film actually made Batman just stop because their mothers had the same name..ok, I would get the dislike.

But that's not what the film shows happening. The film shows a very vulnerable Bruce realizing how far he has fallen (they even flashback to him FALLING again), and being disgusted with himself and what he has almost done. But people just seem to ignore this because a word is said before this realization.

And at the end of the day, it boggles my mind that comic book fans are essentially whining because Bruce and Clark reached a shaky understanding at least in part because of their love for their parents. And are complaining about THAT.

I’m seeing cynicism coming into play here more and more, and it's disappointing.

They are not complaining about that. Comic book fans simply are fairly demanding when it comes to good writing. They've been spoilt. This is simply poor writing.
The basic premise has some merit. The execution is laughable and doesn't survive the most superficial scrutiny or tests of realism.
Taking the movie as seriously as it wants to be taken and then applying that to examination of this scene is cynicism?
I think it's simple intellectual rigour.
Serious adult films challenge you to apply higher standards to them than simple popcorn action flicks require.
Snyder et al have been marketing this for years as a serious adult movie to differentiate it from the MCCU.
It's all about suspension of disbelief.
This movie did enough to get you there.
For the vast majority, it didn't.
Despite its pretentions, it comes off to most as analogous to the scene in Step Brothers.
YouTube is full of parodies from around the globe.
It's a cultural phenomenon.
The most ironic thing is that Zack defends his versions of the characters by claiming it's a realistic portrayal of what would occur in our modern, cynical world (it's not 1938 anymore) but your defense of its failed watershed moment is that the vast majority of the audience who don't appreciate it are being too cynical?
That's some bizarre logic.
For most of us it's not even that the idea only works if we ignore the near century of Batman's character development, but that the rushed, ham-fisted depiction of this allegory demands we ignore our own intellect entirely even in the absence of preconceived notions of these characters.
Or maybe I'm just being cynical.

 

[Corko]

For me Cavill is fine for team-ups, but he's not good enough to lead his own Superman movie. Some scenes, he's fine where he doesn't have to say anything. When they give him lines, it's just bad. I can't tell if it's because he's unsure about the accent, or if he just sucks.

Gadot is another one. She had a handful of scenes. She was fine as a small character and I think she'll do a solid job in Justice League where she shares a lot of screen time with 5 others. But I don't have confidence in her leading her own Wonder Woman movie. Her delivery, when there's dialogue, is just average.

I feel the same way about Jason Mamoa. So it seems like Snyder wasn't focused on casting good actors (though Ezra Miller is a great catch). It's like they cast good actors in supporting roles, to help the lesser actors (the leading heroes). I don't think it's enough. Chris Evans isn't that great but he's much better than Cavill, and he's improving a lot recently. You believe what he says as Cap. You got Downey, Sam Jackson, Rudd, Scarlett, Ruffalo, Mackie etc. I mean, their heroes are sued by great actors. They can help sell the material even when it's not well-written. A bad or average actor is up s**ts creek if the material is bad. Gal Gadot better hope she's working with a good script. Man of Steel would have been a much bigger disaster without Russell Crowe, Amy Adams, Kevin Costner, Diane Lane, Michael Shannon and Laurence Fishburn surrounding Henry. If they had actors on Cavill's level in those supporting roles, we would be looking at MOS like it's a piece of s**t. They really lucked out with that cast. Imagine if Affleck and Irons didn't take these roles!?!

Not trying to argue because you have fair concerns but a lot of people wrote Affleck off for his acting and hes probably the most universally acclaimed out of all of them. Agree about Ezra, hes probably the strongest.

 

[The Guard]

It's a shame. It seems like they tried to do too much with one film and that led to certain things seeming unfinished.

It's weird though, because for all the complaints of the film trying to do much, there are endless complaints about all the things people wanted to see from each element of it in addition to what's already there.

 

[Kane52630]

I thought the ads were better shot than the movie(s).

 

[flickchick85]

This is indisputable, if you are a big fan of Cavill, you are either attracted to him or have horrible taste. He is not a good actor. Bottom line. As time goes on, this will become more and more clear I promise you

Don't be such a baby

It was pretty whiny

Cavill is pretty awful, I'm so shocked that there aren't more complaints about his lack of talent

Pretty face nothing else

It's even worse when Captain America (a similar character) is such a success played by such a great actor

Even if you like the **** that is Cavill, you can't honestly think he was born for the role lol . He is serviceable at the very best

Maybe a vacation will help with that condescending arrogance problem you seem to have.

 

[Corko]

It's a cultural phenomenon.
.

I heard more about Sad Affleck than Marthas on the internet tbh

 

[Corko]

I thought the ads were better shot than the movie(s).

Those ads were fabulous

 

[STARMAN]

There are elements to Superman that are unrealistic no matter what. Filmmakers shouldn't deny them. Embrace them.

 

[The Joker]

I've seen t-shirts made mocking the Martha thing.