BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[BH/HHH]

Now I'm playing with the idea to ask one of the mods to change my username into ExecutionerWolf.

 

[GreenKToo]

To me, the red thing looks like an airbag for stuntmen. Looks like a hose on the lower right side of it. Not sure.

I guess it's like the green screen and blue screen, but behind glass.
There is also the fire extinguisher.

As good as a guess as any.

 

[gdw]

judge, jury, and executioner has certainly been a phrase that has been used to refer to simply punishment and not killing.

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/judge+jury+and+executioner.html

It is not exclusively referring to killing. Granted, the general phrase should be "judge, jury, and executor", but that's really the way in which the phrase is used. You're being too literal about it. And if you're going to be literal about it, then why not complain about Batman being a literal judge? Why not complain about him being a literal jury? Seems to me like certain people just need some reason to decry this movie, and will look to anything to do that.

First off, that link backs up what I have said, " . . . power to be rid of whomever they choose", yeah, that's just referring to sending people to outer-space.

Second, why lump me in with people looking to hate this movie? I've been one of the more supportive and optimistic people with regards to BvS.
This has nothing to do with looking for something to hate on, and is, if anything, the first time I've been put off by much of anything coming out of this production.

My concern was, and is, that Batman may kill in this iteration, just like he has in pretty much every other big screen version in history. This is, in no way, an unreasonable concern, and was feuled by Roven's comments.
All things considered, including the fact that that is what the words he used mean, both literally and colloquially, it is beyond reasonable to express this as a concern.

My contention since voicing this concern has been with people asserting with absolute certainty that Batman will not kill, and flat out denying the plain meaning of Roven's words in an attempt to justify their unbacked assertion.

I do not object to the notion that Roven meant something less than killing criminals, and have repeatedly stated that he likely misspoke, or intended it as described. If you read what I posted, you should have seen that I fully understood this from the start.
As I DO understand this, it's not under debate, so everyone can stop repeating themselves, and arguing against this straw-man.

To help you understand what Roven means, gdw, he's basically saying that, instead of taking these criminals to the police and having them go through the criminal justice system, Batman is deeming them guilty and taking it upon himself to punish them (beating them down and then branding them) instead of letting the system try, convict, and punish them.

Addressed with the last bit above, but I included the rest of your comment for completion, and so as to avoid thinking I was intentionally ignoring this.

 

[souperman]

I call dibs on Broken Neck Lex!

...I guess I'm stuck with Snapperman ?

 

[antoineflemming]

They already showed the batwing killing soldiers in the teaser trailer.

Yeah, but we're not exactly sure that it's Batm--- You're right, this Batman kills. I concede. It's clearly Batman, because we've also seen in the trailers where he's the one in the cockpit, unless that's supposed to be him firing at Doomsday. But then, that's not certain, because why would he brand criminals if he's killing them. Why save them for the police (talking about the guy he brands) if he's just going to kill them. So, there's a strong possibility that Lex somehow hacks into the Batwing.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

I prefer MurdererWolf honestly.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

No, in that context, more than any other, it has ALWAYS meant "executioner" as in executing criminals. *Every single time anyone in history has ever used the phrase "Judge, Jury, and Executioner," it has meant that.

Not necessarily. And especially in this context. Words can change meaning depending on the context you use them in. So context is important. So in the context of a Vigilante, like Batman, he's a private citizen who acts as a Judge, Jury, and Executioner without official sanction.

A jury as in he decides who's guilty and innocent, a judge as in he decides the punishment, and an executioner as in he carries out said decided punishment. Now, that punishment could very much mean he's offing people but that is not a guarantee and I don't see that as the case. He's been operating in Gotham for 20 years and I imagine he's had every chance to kill any criminal he's ran into but yet there's Arkham Asylum and the Suicide Squad.

I am not trying to insult your intelligence by the way. If it comes across like so, I'm sorry.

 

[antoineflemming]

First off, that link backs up what I have said, " . . . power to be rid of whomever they choose", yeah, that's just referring to sending people to outer-space.

Second, why lump me in with people looking to hate this movie? I've been one of the more supportive and optimistic people with regards to BvS.
This has nothing to do with looking for something to hate on, and is, if anything, the first time I've been put off by much of anything coming out of this production.

My concern was, and is, that Batman may kill in this iteration, just like he has in pretty much every other big screen version in history. This is, in no way, an unreasonable concern, and was feuled by Roven's comments.
All things considered, including the fact that that is what the words he used mean, both literally and colloquially, it is beyond reasonable to express this as a concern.

My contention since voicing this concern has been with people asserting with absolute certainty that Batman will not kill, and flat out denying the plain meaning of Roven's words in an attempt to justify their unbacked assertion.

I do not object to the notion that Roven meant something less than killing criminals, and have repeatedly stated that he likely misspoke, or intended it as described. If you read what I posted, you should have seen that I fully understood this from the start.
As I DO understand this, it's not under debate, so everyone can stop repeating themselves, and arguing against this straw-man.



Addressed with the last bit above, but I included the rest of your comment for completion, and so as to avoid thinking I was intentionally ignoring this.

Ok. I just know how I've used the phrase and how I've heard others use the phrase. It's been used to refer to anyone who has the sole power to punish someone, even whether it's as simple a punishment as kicking them out of a building or firing them, without consulting others.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Except that's litterally what the word "executioner" means.

As for the SS characters, I had that thought too, but then realized that they've made it clear that the "change" in Batman has been a RECENT thing.
In other words, he's gotten worse since putting everyone in SS behind bars.


Now, I'm hoping that this could be one of two things, one of which I mentioned long ago, before this was even a concern for BvS:

One, Bruce could be going out of his way to let people THINK Batman has gone over that line, utilizing the fear it instills, which is one of the benefits he had more in his early days, before the criminals figured out he had limits.
So I could see him taking advantage of that if the opportunity presented itself in recent years.
Like when Matt goes with it after learning people think he decapitated that guy on Daredevil.

Two, and this also ties into why Bruce is having nightmares with so many allusions to Darkseid, someone or thing is influencing Bruce. It would explain/connect with the dreams, and explain the Omega symbol, Paradeamons, etc, as opposed to Bruce just magically having precognitive dreams.
So, whatever force is affecting his dreams, is also affecting his mind and behavior, hence him acting so irrationally as far as his preemptive approach to Superman.

That said, although I want to have some reasonable explanation for the dreams, I don't like the idea of Bruce not really being himself for the majority of his premiere appearance in this universe.

Although he certainly has more to do in this film relative to Renner in Avengers, Bruce doesn't need to be Hawkeyed in a film he's headlining.

Come on think about it. There's no way Batman kills criminals

Roven very simply used the term to describe the way that Batman operates without anyone's authority . He was just saying that Batman does what Batman wants

 

[superboy13]

Ok. I just know how I've used the phrase and how I've heard others use the phrase. It's been used to refer to anyone who has the sole power to punish someone, even whether it's as simple a punishment as kicking them out of a building or firing them, without consulting others.

Isn't that moving the goalposts, though? If we talk about, say, a kindergarten teacher playing "judge, jury and executioner", well, duh, she isn't hanging kids from the flagpole on the backyard. But this is Batman being called a vigilante that "is not giving people a chance" and then specifically using the phrase "judge, jury and executioner".

 

[Tensor]

So if 'execute' means 'kill', does that mean 'execute the plan' is 'kill the plan'?

 

[superboy13]

So if 'execute' means 'kill', does that mean 'execute the plan' is 'kill the plan'?

Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

 

[gdw]

It is when you "execute" someone.

Anyway, I think Roven just didn't think it through. I doubt Batman is a killer in this.

This is all I was saying

 

[gdw]

Isn't that moving the goalposts, though? If we talk about, say, a kindergarten teacher playing "judge, jury and executioner", well, duh, she isn't hanging kids from the flagpole on the backyard. But this is Batman being called a vigilante that "is not giving people a chance" and then specifically using the phrase "judge, jury and executioner".

Yes, that's exactly what it is.
This is also why it's so ironic that people are trying to claim the "context" is what defends their interpretation, when the context is exactly what contradicts their inference.

 

[superboy13]

This is all I was saying

Didn't you get the memo? This is a pure BvS cheerleading space. Any concerns, comments or critique will get you ganged up on.

And not in the naughty way.

 

[Dispatch Ninja]

Yeah, but we're not exactly sure that it's Batm--- You're right, this Batman kills. I concede. It's clearly Batman, because we've also seen in the trailers where he's the one in the cockpit, unless that's supposed to be him firing at Doomsday. But then, that's not certain, because why would he brand criminals if he's killing them. Why save them for the police (talking about the guy he brands) if he's just going to kill them. So, there's a strong possibility that Lex somehow hacks into the Batwing.

Why would lex hack the batwing? It's a possibility but I wouldn't bet money on it. Much more likely batman is flying it.

 

[superboy13]

Why would lex hack the batwing?

Off the top of my head? Kill a couple of bad guys and pin it on the Bat so Superman goes up against him and viceversa.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Didn't you get the memo? This is a pure BvS cheerleading space. Any concerns, comments or critique will get you ganged up on.

And not in the naughty way.

I wouldn't say any... the better term would be "legit".

 

[Dispatch Ninja]

Off the top of my head? Kill a couple of bad guys and pin it on the Bat so Superman goes up against him and viceversa.

If someone's hacking into his aircraft and killing people I think he would catch on pretty quick that he's being played.

 

[Spider-jedi]

ive been here reading alot about the use of the word executioner, it all a matter of context. when someone says execute the plan it doesnt mean kill the plan it mean do it but when someone says execute this man, it always means kill the man. whenever you have lives and the word execution in the same conversation 9 out of 10 times it means kill. i dont think batman is gonna kill any one in this movie( maybe he might who know at this point) but i personally thin it was just the wrong just of words

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Why would lex hack the batwing? It's a possibility but I wouldn't bet money on it. Much more likely batman is flying it.

To fullfill Roven's quote obviously.

Also... to further enrage Superman that Batman is a criminal.

 

[gdw]

So if 'execute' means 'kill', does that mean 'execute the plan' is 'kill the plan'?

First off, you're removing, and then changing context, while also limiting to a root word, and not the word, and context, which we are talking about.
Execute means to carry out.

Executioner, as we know from the context provided by 'judge, and jury', and vigilante for that matter, refers to a judicial executioner:

"A judicial executioner is a person who carries out a death sentence ordered by the state or other legal authority, which was known in feudal terminology as high justice."
https://www.google.ca/search?q=executioner&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=-0eqVtabLeytjgTHp6qoCA

So, while "execute" on it's own means to carry out, executioner, especially in the context, means to carry out a death sentence.

 

[superboy13]

If someone's hacking into his aircraft and killing people I think he would catch on pretty quick that he's being played.

By the time that happens, it could be too late. As it is, the speculation is solid, as we know very little of the specifics of the plot.

EDIT: Man, you can tell I want to reach 1K posts so I can get rid of this goddamned miniature avatar.

 

[Tv's Phil]

Given this story, it's entirely possible this Batman, where he's at, would have killed.
I don't think it is what's happening but it is possible.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I'm strangely comfortable with Batman killing in this universe, as long as it's out of necessity (like Supes being forced to kill Zod in MOS). Most of Marvel's heroes kill in the movies, and it's fine, because in the real world, people die. You can't just throw every bad guy in a superhuman prison with no toilet (looking at you, CW Flash) and forget about them.