All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 1

[writer0327]

True. First we had a bleak Superman in Superman Returns. Yes the colorful looking character was there. But there was no joy in him. It was just a dreary slog fest with Superman reduced to a creepy stalker. And it was a flop. So what did WB learn from this. That Superman still looked too colorful? So lets make a Man of Steel movie where Superman is even more bleak and joyless, because being colorful was the only problem with Superman Returns, so lets even make his costume drab. When MoS underperformed, it had to be that Superman was still too cheerful, that's what audiences were rejecting. So let's make Superman even more morose and bleak. Yeah, that's the ticket.




Captain America is everything Superman in a movie should be. It's no wonder the Marvel movies are more popular. Who wants to see a bleak and depressed Superman?

There were elements (some) Superman Returns that worked insofar as the character of Superman was concerned. But I remember the main complaint being that Superman "never fights anyone, he doesn't punch anyone", as if to indicate that because Supes can't fight another villain like a Batman or a Spider-man can, he's boring. So DC's answer was to give us Zod and Friends in MoS and have Superman fight him in the most over-the-top, insane way possible and destroy Smallville and half of Metropolis.

 

[STARMAN]

I still want MOS 2 more than any other film in the DCEU.

 

[writer0327]

I still want MOS 2 more than any other film in the DCEU.

Same here. But the way things are looking we'll get a Suicide Squad sequel before a MoS sequel. Terrible.

 

[The Guard]

There were elements (some) Superman Returns that worked insofar as the character of Superman was concerned. But I remember the main complaint being that Superman "never fights anyone, he doesn't punch anyone", as if to indicate that because Supes can't fight another villain like a Batman or a Spider-man can, he's boring. So DC's answer was to give us Zod and Friends in MoS and have Superman fight him in the most over-the-top, insane way possible and destroy Smallville and half of Metropolis.

That was indeed the main complaint, well, that and him having a child out of wedlock and Lex having a "real estate" scheme again and the movie being structurally similar to SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE. People complained about him being a stalker, not about him being joyless. Possibly because there was a bit more humor associated with the Clark Kent side of the character.

 

[STARMAN]

Same here. But the way things are looking we'll get a Suicide Squad sequel before a MoS sequel. Terrible.

I find it incredibly frustrating but still hold a slim hope the trades will reveal screenwriters actually working on a script. I don't need an official announcement from the studio. They can play coy until after JL.

 

[BH/HHH]

I just want more Superman, don't care if it's in a second JL2, Black Adam, Shazam or MOS2.

I don't think people should get hung up on what sequels come before MOS2 after all he will have been in three films by this November.

Also I think if JL is a monster hit then we will get JL2 before most of the other films in the slate and I wouldn't be shocked in JL2 was mainly Superman focused.

 

[2kt09]

Same here. But the way things are looking we'll get a Suicide Squad sequel before a MoS sequel. Terrible.

Fine by me.
As deplorable as Suicide Squad is, I'd much rather they get that right than sit through another potential snoozefest (regardless of how many great analyses people ended up making). Although, Goyer's so far only attached to GL, so there's a chance.

 

[BH/HHH]

I've done a poll on Twitter for the best DCEU film, would be awesome to get more votes:

https://***********/stebob1984/status/837347000857333762

So far BvS is winning

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I don't have Twitter, can I vote? Someone vote for BvS for me.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Same here. But the way things are looking we'll get a Suicide Squad sequel before a MoS sequel. Terrible.

It is indeed terrible considering that MOS was the first movie that began the DCEU. How do we honor Superman, the character that the WB started the DCEU with? By producing Batman spinoff movies of course. Admittedly, other DC movies are also in production, but the vagueness of a MOS sequel is telling.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I think WBs know that Superman fans will be incredibly disappointed if a MoS sequel isn't announced shortly after Justice League releases.

If Disney can keep pushing Captain America until he finally clicked with audiences in The Winter Soldier I think WBs can do the same for Supes. Find the director, genre, and writer and make the **** happen. Superman is the Goddamn progenitor. He is the Adam of this comic book business.

Not taking anything away from the Bat. He deserves all the respect he gets. This isn't Bat-envy. Supes fans just want a great movie that connects with people all across the board.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I trust this may be with blind faith and led by my sheer love of Superman, but I do believe once JL hits and the $$$ figures come in, we'll get something more concrete, based of course on where the character is at the end of that film...

 

[TeeKay]

Personally, I think Evans's Cap got way more development and plenty of screen time in TA so I would still say that Evans in TFA and TA was better represented than Cavill in MOS and BvS.

All you need to do is present this scene.

[YT]KQ2sPHpou98[/YT]

 

[Patchwork Man]

I still want MOS 2 more than any other film in the DCEU.

I trust this may be with blind faith and led by my sheer love of Superman, but I do believe once JL hits and the $$$ figures come in, we'll get something more concrete, based of course on where the character is at the end of that film...

Worry not, MoS2 will happen.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

All this talk about morals and wholesomeness...

Superman sacrificed his life to stop Doomsday. That's about as wholesome and moral as it gets. People didn't suddenly start loving the character's portrayal.

While Marvel has done fairly well with that element so far with Cap, I think it's a lot more simple than that. Captain America's "old fashioned morals" are often played for humor in the MCU. That's not the only reason audiences like the character.

Superman hasn't been embraced as much as Captain America by the general audience for the same reason he hasn't been embraced as much as say, Spider-Man and Iron Man. Because he's not been portrayed as likeably. It has a lot to do with the levels of humor and charisma on display. Even Wolverine, a loner and a gritty character, has often displayed more personality and humor. In many respects, so has Batman throughout his various franchises.

People seem to like historically likeable characters to be portrayed as likeable. Audiences have eaten up Marvel's "likeable" superhero franchise, chock full of humor and charisma.

Other than for some of the purists, Superman's reception has less to do with his morals or his values, but more with his overall attitude toward being a hero.

It has to do with the fact that unlike past versions of the character, this version of the character does not seem as approachable, doesn't have enough levity, seems to have a less than likeable attitude toward his mission and is essentially a deconstruction of the superhero myth instead of a celebration of its high points (though many of these elements are in fact, intact in this franchise, and likely will be in the future).

It's why the first and most vocal complaint about pretty much any portrayal of Superman the last few films has been something along the lines of "He doesn't seem likeable" and "he doesn't seem to want to be Superman".

"He doesn't smile enough" has become a joke around here, but it's not far from the truth. If the writers inject some more humor and change Superman's mindset a bit and allow some more of his charisma and personality to show, I think you'll see a big change in people's attitudes toward the character. It's all about perception.

Nice post

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Speaking of Superman I want to know when MoS2 is going to start development, I'm sure we won't hear anything until after JL but I'm excited to always see Cavill's Superman in action. Wonder if he will ever be given a fortress in the Arctic.

He'd better!

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I trust this may be with blind faith and led by my sheer love of Superman, but I do believe once JL hits and the $$$ figures come in, we'll get something more concrete, based of course on where the character is at the end of that film...

Second this

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Worry not, MoS2 will happen.

True, but when it will happen is up for debate. The WB is pushing for other movies (some Batman related) to be released so there may not be time for another Superman movie. Heck, the only time he'll be seen is in Justice League, and who knows how much screen time/presence he'll have in that movie.

 

[writer0327]

I think WBs know that Superman fans will be incredibly disappointed if a MoS sequel isn't announced shortly after Justice League releases.

If Disney can keep pushing Captain America until he finally clicked with audiences in The Winter Soldier I think WBs can do the same for Supes. Find the director, genre, and writer and make the **** happen. Superman is the Goddamn progenitor. He is the Adam of this comic book business.

Not taking anything away from the Bat. He deserves all the respect he gets. This isn't Bat-envy. Supes fans just want a great movie that connects with people all across the board.

Amen, brother....

I hope my rants doesn't come off as Batman hate. I love Bats, I love the entirety of comicdom. but Supes has always in first in my heart as a comic character since I was a kid sitting in a darkened theater in 1978 believing that a man could fly....

 

[Patchwork Man]

True, but when it will happen is up for debate. The WB is pushing for other movies (some Batman related) to be released so there may not be time for another Superman movie. Heck, the only time he'll be seen is in Justice League, and who knows how much screen time/presence he'll have in that movie.

2020 is my guess. However, I suspect it's already being conceived. They could announce it, lens it next year, and release it in late 2019.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

I think WBs know that Superman fans will be incredibly disappointed if a MoS sequel isn't announced shortly after Justice League releases.

If Disney can keep pushing Captain America until he finally clicked with audiences in The Winter Soldier I think WBs can do the same for Supes. Find the director, genre, and writer and make the **** happen. Superman is the Goddamn progenitor. He is the Adam of this comic book business.

Not taking anything away from the Bat. He deserves all the respect he gets. This isn't Bat-envy. Supes fans just want a great movie that connects with people all across the board.

I agree with all of this. It worked in 1978, it can work today. Just have good writing and good characteristics. Heck, it worked for Captain America. Still, when MOS2 will come out is up for debate.

 

[writer0327]

2020 is my guess. However, I suspect it's already being conceived. They could announce it, lens it next year, and release it in late 2019.

A two year turnaround is doable. A:IW just started filming this year and its releasing in May 2018. But because I want DC to get this right, I would rather them take their time, especially with their track record.

 

[Jekecy]

All this talk about morals and wholesomeness...

Superman sacrificed his life to stop Doomsday. That's about as wholesome and moral as it gets. People didn't suddenly start loving the character's portrayal.

While Marvel has done fairly well with that element so far with Cap, I think it's a lot more simple than that. Captain America's "old fashioned morals" are often played for humor in the MCU. That's not the only reason audiences like the character.

Superman hasn't been embraced as much as Captain America by the general audience for the same reason he hasn't been embraced as much as say, Spider-Man and Iron Man. Because he's not been portrayed as likeably. It has a lot to do with the levels of humor and charisma on display. Even Wolverine, a loner and a gritty character, has often displayed more personality and humor. In many respects, so has Batman throughout his various franchises.

People seem to like historically likeable characters to be portrayed as likeable. Audiences have eaten up Marvel's "likeable" superhero franchise, chock full of humor and charisma.

Other than for some of the purists, Superman's reception has less to do with his morals or his values, but more with his overall attitude toward being a hero.

It has to do with the fact that unlike past versions of the character, this version of the character does not seem as approachable, doesn't have enough levity, seems to have a less than likeable attitude toward his mission and is essentially a deconstruction of the superhero myth instead of a celebration of its high points (though many of these elements are in fact, intact in this franchise, and likely will be in the future).

It's why the first and most vocal complaint about pretty much any portrayal of Superman the last few films has been something along the lines of "He doesn't seem likeable" and "he doesn't seem to want to be Superman".

"He doesn't smile enough" has become a joke around here, but it's not far from the truth. If the writers inject some more humor and change Superman's mindset a bit and allow some more of his charisma and personality to show, I think you'll see a big change in people's attitudes toward the character. It's all about perception.

This is the first analysis I've read from you that I completely agree with. You hit it on all cylinders.

I don't think they make these films with the joy/joylessness as the objective and work backward from there. I think they consider who this character is as a person rather than the icon and how he (someone like him) works within our modern world (as a child and young adult coming of age and finding his place) and what we understand about power and otherness, and his attitude springs organically from that. They also want to use his character to speak to important ideas about religion, power, faith, etc. It's a mythical versus a fairy tale approach, and it's a journey rather than a lightswitch.

While I generally don't mind this approach for superheroes, I think many have been fed up with this approach especially with regards to Superman. Someone put it succinctly with respect to the modern Superman (as depicted in recent live-action iterations): creators are more interested in exploring the concept of Superman, or the Übermensch, more so than the actual source material itself. So on paper we do get some interesting twists and revisions to the IP, but on the flipside when it's not done particularly well it just comes off as foreign and/or uninteresting to people who just want to see the actual mythology adapted to screen.

 

[misslane38]

This is the first analysis I've read from you that I completely agree with. You hit it on all cylinders.


While I generally don't mind this approach for superheroes, I think many have been fed up with this approach especially with regards to Superman. Someone put it succinctly with respect to the modern Superman (as depicted in recent live-action iterations): creators are more interested in exploring the concept of Superman, or the Übermensch, more so than the actual source material itself. So on paper we do get some interesting twists and revisions to the IP, but on the flipside when it's not done particularly well it just comes off as foreign and/or uninteresting to people who just want to see the actual mythology adapted to screen.

How are you/we defining the "actual mythology"?

 

[Jekecy]

How are you/we defining the "actual mythology"?

Series of events. Development via characters arcs as well as interpersonal relationships.

BvS effectively just leapt over decades of lore fans would have loved to see adapted on-screen. At least with Batman there is implied history which they can technically backtrack or reference to. Supes is a bit tougher. Death of Superman is one of those hallmark moments where you can't just revert back to status quo so quickly.
They technically can, it'll just undo all the setup they've done to make it seem significant.

The Catch-22 is many fans want a return to form/tradition, but BvS events make it hard to reach that point sooner than later. They can appease the fanbase with a sharp turn, but they risk compromising their storytelling.