All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 5

[unholyrevenger]

and solo flicks ARE required to establish the characters and make their teaming up together a big honking deal.

this attitude only guarantees DCs continued failure.

 

[Flint Marko]

this attitude only guarantees DCs continued failure.

How?

 

[unholyrevenger]

True but I think Nolan said it best when he was asked about linking the other heroes with his Batman; he said the DC characters are very different from the Marvel characters and I agree with this. DC heroes by and large are the Archetypes and the Marvel heroes are more johnny come lately and more cynical imho. Though it works for them

lt's not that dc characters are archtype, its that they're paragons of an ideal. and people don't wanna see their heroes struggle with being that paragon for a whole movie.

How?

How do you expect DC to succeed when the people who provide word of mouth's only comment is "DC didn't structure their movies the way i wanted them to, so the movie can only ever be in the meh to you ruined my childhood range of quality."

 

[OutOfBoose]

The Fantastic Four isn't a superhero All Star Squad. Nor are the X-Men, the Suicide Squad or the Guardians of the Galaxy.

The Avengers and the Justice League ARE All Star Teams, and solo flicks ARE required to establish the characters and make their teaming up together a big honking deal.

Solo films can help build up hype, but they're unnecessary for a team-up story to work. Superstar status or not, they're still characters and great team-up films manage to make everything work. There are less challenging tasks like FF or The Incredibles, because the team is already established. There are more difficult cases like The Avengers and Justice League, because the characters have different backgrounds. It requires mad world-building skills (Feige) to make a movie like The Avengers work.

 

[Flint Marko]

Solo movies aren't required to make team movies "work" but I don't think anyone can deny that the team movie works better if you already had a solid foundation upon which to build. And that doesn't even touch on the issue of how much hype and goodwill could be brought into a potential team-up movie off a string of solo movies.

It seems that, out of the two approaches, both could work but one is clearly superior.

How do you expect DC to succeed when the people who provide word of mouth's only comment is "DC didn't structure their movies the way i wanted them to, so the movie can only ever be in the meh to you ruined my childhood range of quality."

If they managed to make good movies, their word of mouth would be better and none of this fan hand-wringing would matter.

But they haven't, due in no small part to how poorly they've planned things.

 

[Boom]

I'd say the DCEU as we know it is effectively dead, but you better believe WB isn't about to call it quits after Disney just raked in over two billions dollars (and counting) off of two movies in four months' time.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'd say the DCEU as we know it is effectively dead, but you better believe WB isn't about to call it quits after Disney just raked in over two billions dollars (and counting) off of two movies in four months' time.

That's why I feel pretty hopeful for DC's big screen future. The superhero genre doesn't appear to be going away any time soon and unlike Marvel in their early days, DC has the name recognition to be afforded multiple chances to get things right.

 

[Rorschach2012]

They should really just go full on Multiverse with it.

Give us movies based on: The New Frontier, The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come, Batman Beyond, Red Son, All Star Superman, Crisis On Infinite Earths

DC had their chance to compete with Marvel with the traditional cinematic universe concept, but they blew it. Now it's time to do something radically different.

 

[unholyrevenger]

If they managed to make good movies,

How do you make a good movie when the loudest portion of the audience has already determined the movie is bad, regardless of the movies actual quality.

 

[Erzengel]

I think Snyder put the kabosh on any type of Dark Knight Returns adaption.

 

[Zarex]

l
How do you expect DC to succeed when the people who provide word of mouth's only comment is "DC didn't structure their movies the way i wanted them to, so the movie can only ever be in the meh to you ruined my childhood range of quality."

I expected them to succeed by following a previously established successful template but with characters that had a proven track record on TV and film and a brand, Justice League, that had much greater name recognition. It was foolish to do otherwise. But my childhood memories remain untainted by WB's mismanagement of its superhero cinematic slate.

Solo films can help build up hype, but they're unnecessary for a team-up story to work. Superstar status or not, they're still characters and great team-up films manage to make everything work. There are less challenging tasks like FF or The Incredibles, because the team is already established. There are more difficult cases like The Avengers and Justice League, because the characters have different backgrounds. It requires mad world-building skills (Feige) to make a movie like The Avengers work.

All-Star team films are tough because the bizarre backstories, ridiculous power sets and impossible weaponry of the team members need to be introduced to the audiences before we get to the good stuff. But while it can be done, it's clear that establishing flicks are essential to generating the kind of insane BO results the Avengers films are making.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I think Snyder put the kabosh on any type of Dark Knight Returns adaption.

Such a bummer. He should've just directed a straight adaptation of that story. It would've been so much better than what we got.

 

[unholyrevenger]

It seems that, out of the two approaches, both could work but one is clearly superior.

I expected them to succeed by following a previously established successful template but with characters that had a proven track record on TV and film and a brand, Justice League, that had much greater name recognition. It was foolish to do otherwise.

These bigoted beliefs are exactly the problem and thus doomed DC to failure.

 

[unholyrevenger]

it's clear that establishing flicks are essential to generating the kind of insane BO results the Avengers films are making.

Yeah like Titanic, Avatar, Transformers AOE, Jurassic World, Fast and the Furious 7, Black Panther

 

[Zarex]

These bigoted beliefs are exactly the problem and thus doomed DC to failure.

WB's bad decisions doomed DC to failure.

Yeah like Titanic, Avatar, Transformers AOE, Jurassic World, Fast and the Furious 7, Black Panther

Only one of those is a superhero flick. But my point was specifically about superhero All-Star teams, and comparing the BO totals of Avengers versus the tepid audience response to Justice League. Establishing flicks are clearly the way to go.

 

[OutOfBoose]

All-Star team films are tough because the bizarre backstories, ridiculous power sets and impossible weaponry of the team members need to be introduced to the audiences before we get to the good stuff. But while it can be done, it's clear that establishing flicks are essential to generating the kind of insane BO results the Avengers films are making.

Generating BO numbers - agree. Story to work - again, unnecessary.

 

[Flint Marko]

How do you make a good movie when the loudest portion of the audience has already determined the movie is bad, regardless of the movies actual quality.

......you ignore it and make a good movie. That's what Patty Jenkins did.

Fanboy chatter on message boards is not what killed this franchise.

 

[The Joker]

......you ignore it and make a good movie. That's what Patty Jenkins did.

Fanboy chatter on message boards is not what killed this franchise.

This. There was much skepticism towards WW and Gal Gadot's ability to lead a movie after her wooden supporting role in BvS.

 

[Flint Marko]

This. There was much skepticism towards WW and Gal Gadot's ability to lead a movie after her wooden supporting role in BvS.

Yup, and I'll happily admit to being one of those naysayers. I was very skeptical of Gal's ability as an actress, and I was thrilled to be wrong.

 

[Flemm]

A lot of things could have worked for the DCEU. A Batman/Superman movie, for example, could absolutely have worked and created excitement for future projects.

It's a case where fan criticisms of the direction were basically accurate, or certain key points, but vocal fans were not the source of the problem.

They were simply stating the problem.

 

[unholyrevenger]

......you ignore it and make a good movie. That's what Patty Jenkins did.

But she didn't make a good movie... She made an easily enjoyable movie. The same way Ayer made an easily enjoyable Suicide Squad movie.

 

[misslane38]

Such a bummer. He should've just directed a straight adaptation of that story. It would've been so much better than what we got.

I disagree. I think a straight adaptation would be terrible regardless of who made it, and I think that Snyder actually improved on the original in key ways. Comic writing great Grant Morrison agrees:

 

[Flemm]

The Dark Knight Returns is a great Batman story, but it's a terrible Superman story, for the reason Morrison states, namely that Superman represents the oppressive establishment, or complicity with it. I would also agree with him that reversing that dynamic, or attempting to do so, is the most interesting thing about Batman vs. Superman.

However, identifying interesting concepts is one thing. Expressing those concepts effectively, in a way that connects with people, and in ways that serve the individual characters and overall story... those are the problem areas. The story pitch for Batman vs. Superman probably sounded amazing. I've said that multiple times in the past. On paper, it must have sounded like a brilliant idea.

Anyway, the basic point that Superman shouldn't represent the powers-that-be, but a challenge to established power, is certainly an important one, I think, for any modern adaptation of the character.

For that reason, adapting The Dark Knight Returns directly as a blockbuster movie would not have been a good idea, imho. Maybe as a separate thing, like for a streaming service or whatever.

But, if you want Superman to work for modern audiences, then casting him as Batman's ultimate adversary, essentially, would not be a smart move.

 

[misslane38]

However, identifying interesting concepts is one thing. Expressing those concepts effectively, in a way that connects with people, and in ways that serve the individual characters and overall story... those are the problem areas. The story pitch for Batman vs. Superman probably sounded amazing. I've said that multiple times in the past. On paper, it must have sounded like a brilliant idea.

I think they did express them effectively, especially in the Ultimate Cut of the film. I just think that as a story, regardless of how one approaches it, is not exactly crowd pleasing stuff. It's cerebral and heavy.

 

[Flemm]

I think they did express them effectively, especially in the Ultimate Cut of the film. I just think that as a story, regardless of how one approaches it, is not exactly crowd pleasing stuff. It's cerebral and heavy.

Fair enough. I think that I would have taken a step back and said, basically, yes, we've identified something important here: Superman should not be an establishment figure, or an oppressive figure.

He's a decent, compassionate individual who happens to be powerful enough to challenge the establishment and make a difference in ways that most people cannot, or not as directly.

But then I would have moved further away from the source material and toward the idea that, while the methods are different, and their early experiences are very different, Superman and Batman have those two things in common: they want to make a difference, and they have the means to do so.

That moves the story away from the confrontation and toward a "World's Finest" type of team-up.

It's true that a team-up might have been more crowd-pleasing, but I think that it would also have avoided some other issues with the movie, as filmed, namely:

1) Batman moving in the direction of being an oppressive establishment figure (not good either, it's the opposite problem).
2) Adapting the Death of Superman immediately. It was just too early for that, in my view.
3) Reproducing the Dark Knight Returns confrontation so directly. It's true that the meaning is different, or at least potentially, but I think that simply doing something else would have been better. That fight simply doesn't have the same impact taken out of context, and I don't think that it really develops either character in a positive way.