All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 5

[misslane38]

But then I would have moved further away from the source material and toward the idea that, while the methods are different, and their early experiences are very different, Superman and Batman have those two things in common: they want to make a difference, and they have the means to do so.

Your pitch moves so far away from the source material that it's not the source material anymore. It's not an adaptation or, as in Snyder's case, a deconstruction of the source material. It's a completely different story. That confirms for me that TDKR just isn't something that can be a crowd-pleaser; there's no way to adapt it "effectively," to use your words, so that it has mass appeal and serves both characters.

WB took a risk on BvS, and the fact that it didn't work well-enough for everyone speaks more to me about the limits of such a story (not to mention its original context in the timeline of Post-Crisis continuity and its status as an AU) and not the limits of its adapters and storytellers (e.g. Snyder, Terrio). I mean, I enjoyed it as did a fair amount of other people, but I don't blame the general audience for not warming to something that isn't your standard superhero fare for the whole family.

 

[Flemm]

Your pitch moves so far away from the source material that it's not the source material anymore. It's not an adaptation or, as in Snyder's case, a deconstruction of the source material. It's a completely different story.

Yes to all of those things.

WB took a risk on BvS, and the fact that it didn't work well-enough for everyone speaks more to me about the limits of such a story (not to mention its original context in the timeline of Post-Crisis continuity and its status as an AU) and not the limits of its adapters and storytellers (e.g. Snyder, Terrio).

I agree about The Dark Knight Returns simply not being a good choice, either in its original form or an inverted form.

It's a landmark graphic novel, and a great Batman story, but it works as a story about a dystopian future, an alternate universe, and a scenario that comes across almost as apocalyptic. It also builds on the two characters' established history as allies.

Adapting it might makes sense, of course, but in another context, not as a way to establish Batman and Superman's relationship onscreen. I think that the initial portrayal needed to focus on the two characters as allies. Unlikely allies, in certain ways. Allies who are somewhat suspicious of each other's methods. Allies who question and challenge one another. But neither should be cast as the villain.

 

[misslane38]

Adapting it might makes sense, of course, but in another context, not as a way to establish Batman and Superman's relationship onscreen. I think that the initial portrayal needed to focus on the two characters as allies. Unlikely allies, in certain ways. Allies who are somewhat suspicious of each other's methods. Allies who question and challenge one another. But neither should be cast as the villain.

I think the way Snyder and Terrio subverted the original allows for this, though. It also wasn't necessarily aiming to establish a relationship so much serve as a starting point for one.

 

[Rorschach2012]

TDKR would never work as a story within a universe that intends to establish Superman as a crowd favorite hero. It doesn’t work within a shared universe, it works best as a stand-alone story. It would have done a huge disservice to Superman, but it still would’ve been a superior movie to BvS because it’s simply a better story IMO. TDKR and Watchmen are the only two graphic novels to really seep into pop culture. This was only possible because they are undeniably two of the greatest stories told in comic form. They’re well regarded by millions, while BvS is generally considered a flop and a meme. There’s no concrete way to judge art, but if you polled the general audience, I think the reception to TDKR as a story would be far warmer than the reception to BVS.

In hindsight, it would’ve been better if DC didn’t even attempt a shared universe and instead just adapted their greatest stories, with little regard for continuity. It would still technically be a shared universe as all these stories would inhabit the same multiverse. This would’ve been a better concept for WB when you consider the reception to the DCEU. It’s impossible to say if this method would have worked better, but i have a feeling that it would have because the whole idea is to adapt stories that are already well received instead of crafting new stories that may or may not crash and burn. If I were WB, I would want to minimize risk as little as possible.

 

[misslane38]

TDKR would never work as a story within a universe that intends to establish Superman as a crowd favorite hero. It doesn’t work within a shared universe, it works best as a stand-alone story.

Hence, why Snyder and Terrio subverted it and used only part of it to adapt.

It would have done a huge disservice to Superman, but it still would’ve been a superior movie to BvS because it’s simply a better story IMO. TDKR and Watchmen are the only two graphic novels to really seep into pop culture. This was only possible because they are undeniably two of the greatest stories told in comic form.

Yes, comic book form released in one very specific context.

They’re well regarded by millions, while BvS is generally considered a flop and a meme. There’s no concrete way to judge art, but if you polled the general audience, I think the reception to TDKR as a story would be far warmer than the reception to BVS.

I doubt it.

 

[Flemm]

I think the way Snyder and Terrio subverted the original allows for this, though. It also wasn't necessarily aiming to establish a relationship so much serve as a starting point for one.

Your take on the Snyder films is the best take on those films.

It doesn't really change my opinion of the direction, but it is the best way of looking at them that I have come across.

 

[WBwins]

Irrespective of your personal feelings on it,one cant deny Snyders films have failed to connect with the GA.


Looking to the future what can be done to make a DC shared universe feasible again?Looks like Warner bros is ignoring continuity from now on.

 

[The Joker]

Irrespective of your personal feelings on it,one cant deny Snyders films have failed to connect with the GA.

Not surprising. Weak movies usually don't.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Weak movies connect with audiences all the time, lol. But as it was said above, highlighting complex themes isn't the same as effectively dramatizing them. Convoluted, unapproachable narrative makes it even worse in case of BvS. Add there ill-tempered and filled with misery tone and you got yourself a winner.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't think the Dark Knight Returns can work as a theatrical release even as an "Elseworld" especially after everything with the DCEU not even mentioning Snyder's usage of aspects of the final battle of DKR between Superman and Batman. And, I'm not sure you can do a movie portraying Superman as an antagonist when you are trying to bank on Superman as a character on other series.

Would love to see a 3 part miniseries with on Netflix or whatever DC streaming channel.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I don't think the Dark Knight Returns can work as a theatrical release even as an "Elseworld" especially after everything with the DCEU not even mentioning Snyder's usage of aspects of the final battle of DKR. And, I'm not sure you can do a movie portraying Superman as an antagonist when you are trying to bank on Superman as a character on other series.

Would love to see a 3 part miniseries with on Netflix or whatever DC streaming channel.

Is Flashpoint a bad idea then because of its depictions of Aquaman and Wonder Woman?

 

[Boom]

We just got a faithful animated film of TDKR so I'm really not in any particular rush to see it adapted again.

 

[Erzengel]

Is Flashpoint a bad idea then because of its depictions of Aquaman and Wonder Woman?

Personally, yes.

I don't think many people realize how difficult it is to do any type of major storyline because there are decades of previous storylines and character progressions that most comic book writers assume that the readers know about. That's not the same with the movies. It's why you have "interpretations" of Civil War, Days of Future Past, No Man's Land, etc. The only ones that can stay pretty true are stories based on mini series.

We just got a faithful animated film of TDKR so I'm really not in any particular rush to see it adapted again.

I'd agree however, live action is still a whole other level.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Personally, yes.

I don't think many people realize how difficult it is to do any type of major storyline because there are decades of previous storylines and character progressions that most comic book writers assume that the readers know about. That's not the same with the movies. It's why you have "interpretations" of Civil War, Days of Future Past, No Man's Land, etc. The only ones that can stay pretty true are stories based on mini series.



I'd agree however, live action is still a whole other level.

I don't agree. A story like TDKR, Red Son or Kingdom Come can be enjoyed and totally understood by people that aren't familiar with the history. They are standalone stories.

Civil War, NML, and DOFP* are not standalone stories, they exist in the main narrative universe which is inherently dependent on past stories. Some of the most famous DC stories are Elseworlds tales than can be enjoyed with no prior knowledge.

*(though DOFP is set in an alternate timeline, it is still dependent on stories that preceded it),

 

[2kt09]

I don't think The Dark Knight Returns can work as a theatrical release even as an "Elseworld" especially after everything with the DCEU not even mentioning Snyder's usage of aspects of the final battle of DKR. And, I'm not sure you can do a movie portraying Superman as an antagonist when you are trying to bank on Superman as a character on other series.

Would love to see a 3 part miniseries with on Netflix or whatever DC streaming channel.

It's been working for the past 2-3 Batman-related movies.
The concept works, imo, best as it was utilized in this universe as a way to make Batman having already gone through so much in life and all those relationships catching up to him in further movies. Especially if Batman at this point in time has, unbeknownst to him, become the antagonist.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't agree. A story like TDKR, Red Son or Kingdom Come can be enjoyed and totally understood by people that aren't familiar with the history. They are standalone stories.

I love Kingdom Come.

But it's a hard story to do. The story begins with the world being overrun by metahumans. And while it's fine to have these as a bunch of unnamed characters with powers, when you start introducing Superman's group, Batman's group, Luthor's group, even truncated is still a lot of characters
And I, think a general audience member isn't going to know who even half the characters are?

 

[Erzengel]

It's been working for the past 2-3 Batman-related movies.
The concept works, imo, best as it was utilized in this universe as a way to make Batman having already gone through so much in life and all those relationships catching up to him in further movies. Especially if Batman at this point in time has, unbeknownst to him, become the antagonist.

Batman being the antagonist "works" in BvS even though I think a lot of people were cheering him on in beating up Superman, because even though he was "introduced" in this movie, he's still a pop culture icon and a previous bankable star.

Trying to get a new version of Superman to that level in a sequel and by having him as the villain in an unrelated TDKR I see conflicts.

 

[AverageMan]

I love Kingdom Come.

But it's a hard story to do. The story begins with the world being overrun by metahumans. And while it's fine to have these as a bunch of unnamed characters with powers, when you start introducing Superman's group, Batman's group, Luthor's group, even truncated is still a lot of characters
And I, think a general audience member isn't going to know who even half the characters are?

Like Rorschach said, that's he whole point of a stand alone story. Any implied back story can be summarised by a montage/voiceover segment ie MoS - Clark learning about Krypton, JL - the war between Steppenwolf & the Gods, Amazons & Atlanteans

 

[2kt09]

Batman being the antagonist "works" in BvS even though I think a lot of people were cheering him on in beating up Superman, because even though he was "introduced" in this movie, he's still a pop culture icon and a previous bankable star.

Trying to get a new version of Superman to that level in a sequel and by having him as the villain in an unrelated TDKR I see conflicts.

The part of the TDKR story that made it obvious this was satire is Superman being a government official. Especially in this universe, where the military is pretty much never not making situations worse. So, I at least thought it was interesting to add the Birthright stuff as a sort of Superman version of TDKR that some poster once noted.

 

[Erzengel]

Like Rorschach said, that's he whole point of a stand alone story. Any implied back story can be summarised by a montage/voiceover segment ie MoS - Clark learning about Krypton, JL - the war between Steppenwolf & the Gods, Amazons & Atlanteans

Not when you are introducing a decent amount of characters that most general audience members are unfamiliar with.

 

[Charlatan]

I wish just once DC animated would do a full blown cgi movie. Like the intro for that online game they had. only more updated and with a better budget.

 

[Jekecy]

I wish just once DC animated would do a full blown cgi movie. Like the intro for that online game they had. only more updated and with a better budget.

They're not made for a reason; it's crazy expensive. A feature-length would cost as much, if not more than the largest live-action blockbusters today.

 

[Kane52630]

We just got a faithful animated film of TDKR so I'm really not in any particular rush to see it adapted again.

I agree.

Now I feel like rewatching it just for the music alone.

 

[MbJ]

Looking to the future what can be done to make a DC shared universe feasible again?Looks like Warner bros is ignoring continuity from now on.

Strong solo films that endear the characters to audiences. Watching the theater around me in Infinity War bust out in cheers and applause when characters like Thor, Black Panther, the Guardians and Spider-Man had their big entrances or feats hammered home for me how much of the success of the MCU relied on the fact that audiences loved these characters and wanted to see more of them. An audience can be very forgiving about a movie's quality if they genuinely like the characters, which is something Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad can attest to. The movie's trash but people absolutely love her.

If Aquaman and Shazam (and then god willing Flash and the members of the Green Lantern Corps) can win over audiences the way Wonder Woman did, the franchise will be on much stronger footing.

 

[Superchan]

I always hated TDKR because of how it depicted superman but atleast Miller was smart enough to know that he could write a Batman vs Superman story because he had a 4 decades long friendship that he could deconstruct whereas Snyder jumped straight into deconstructing a pair of characters who haven't been constructed (batman)/constructed fully (superman) thus giving the audience a moody, dark, over convoluted movie that portrayed it's lead (iconic) characters as a pair of nihilistic -and in batman's case- psychotic *****bags who were neither likable (superman) or heroic (batman).