All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - Part 72

[TheIrishAvenger]

 

[DKDetective]

I would say the tone was more UNEVEN. You had Superman saving the day, you had a LOT of camp with lex, but the darker bits are more effective, and that throws everything off. I want there be humor in MOS, but only used appropriately.

Not darker, more serious. Something can be light and optimistic, but also played straight and intended to be serious. The problem with STM's tone is that it goes from being utterly serious and reverent of the material in the first hour to a mix of zany/campy and occasionally serious and reverent in the second half. I swear most of the bitter arguments about lightness and darkness and campiness, etc. around here stem from the fact that so many people do not know what those words mean or how to use them properly in terms of a discussion regarding a film's tone. This is just like how you stirred up a war yesterday by calling Amy's Lois plain and unattractive. You need to be more careful how you express yourself, Coco.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ Pretty much how I feel about the first Spider-Man.

EDIT: Post should be pointing at I SEE SPIDEY's post.

 

[BH/HHH]

Me neither. Why this board got its panties in a wad over her review I'll never know. If she wants to rate movies according to some Bechdel test that's her business (and it doesn't make her stupid nor does it make her opinion invalid) but that doesn't mean any of us have to feel the same way. I'm more concerned with the guy who said it wasn't on BB's level. I can't fathom how MOS could be as that movie. MOS to me looks as though it's got similar character moments but much better action.

Yeah I think it'll be better than Batman Begins.

I think Batman Begins is criminally overrated so a review saying it isn't as good means nothing to me one way or another. I just don't get the love for that film and never will.

I think it's the best of the trilogy I find the Dark Knight overrated (not that I don't love it)

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I care about women having equal rights and I care about how women are portrayed in cinema. I was offended by how the female characters were treated in the latest Trek film and I won't apologize for that. I say if you are going to sexually exploit your female characters do the same for the male characters. Ideally noone would be exploited but I'd perfer both genders be than just women.

That being said I've loved plenty of films with lame or bad female characters. I think things are trending towards the female characters being treated a little better in these films and that is a good thing indeed.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think Batman Begins is criminally overrated so a review saying it isn't as good means nothing to me one way or another. I just don't get the love for that film and never will.

I think Batman Begins is the MOST thorough origin on film, going from boyhood to Batman, and spending a LONG time showing how he got the mentality that drives the character. It's also Bale's best performance as the character. The scenes with Alfred and Wayne are also the best of the series. Gary Oldman's also great, but somewhat underwritten.

HOWEVER, the film actually starts to falter once he actually becomes Batman. The plot twist NEVER surprised me (even on first viewing), the crime drama element that made Gotham so intriguing under Falcone's reign gets thrown away, and the action makes Greengrass look locked in and focused. Combine that with a dull love interest (to me), a nerfed Ra's (which makes the character more boring), a device that is still fantastical and unrealistic, a scarecrow who's better WITHOUT his mask, and an attempt to avoid killing that appears to blow up a group of people, and that cumulatively takes the film down several notches.

HOWEVER, I'm not as worried for MOS, because it can finally embrace the idea of superhuman characters and powers once this film becomes somewhat cookie-cutter. And I'm fairly certain it will at a point.

The key for this third act, is action. And MOS looks to have incredible action.
Also Lane's an actual comics character, played by a very strong actress. She HAS to be better than Dawes.

 

[BH/HHH]

I care about women having equal rights and I care about how women are portrayed in cinema. I was offended by how the female characters were treated in the latest Trek film and I won't apologize for that. I say if you are going to sexually exploit your female characters do the same for the male characters. Ideally noone would be exploited but I'd perfer both genders be than just women.

That being said I've loved plenty of films with lame or bad female characters. I think things are trending towards the female characters being treated a little better in these films and that is a good thing indeed.

Which is fine but the same applies for men, I don't like how women act like they're victimised when a female character is underplayed when there's plenty if films where the sane thing happens to men.

But if someone's problem with MOS is that Lois Lane doesn't own the movie then they're watching the wrong film, it's about Superman his co-characters are there simply to fill in the story around him and suppor the main structure if the world he's in.

I don't wanna really get into a feminist thing cause I have a real problem with it and I can see the mods getting annoyed about the conversation.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ The key is to make Lane a 3D character without hijacking the movie. At this point, I'd rather the romance be underwritten than overwritten.
But yes, she shouldn't be a mirror of the male characters, but one who stands alone.

 

[BH/HHH]

^ The key is to make Lane a 3D character without hijacking the movie. At this point, I'd rather the romance be underwritten than ovewritten.

Yeah totally, she clearly has an important role in the Superman mythos but this film is about Clark's journey and like Begins was Bruce Wayne's nothing should detract from this.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I don't really get the bechdel test stuff... I mean, it's a Superman movie... pretty much none of the characters are going to be talking about anything other than Superman...

Jor-el and Zod will be argueing about Kal-el. Jonathon and Martha will be talking about Clark. Lois and Perry/Jenny/anyone in the office will be talking about her story - Superman. Lois and Martha will talk about Clark. Faora and Lois might talk about Superman (or Zod). Faora and Martha will argue about Clark.

I don't really see where it would be appropriate in this film to insert a scene in which Lois and Martha have a chat about something other than Clark. Or where Faora and Lois have a bonding moment.

It doesn't make it sexist. It just makes logical sense for the plot to revolve around the central protagonist, who happens to be a man.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I think Batman Begins is the MOST thorough origin on film, going from boyhood to Batman, and spending a LONG time showing how he got the mentality that drives the character. It's also Bale's best performance as the character. The scenes with Alfred and Wayne are also the best of the series. Gary Oldman's also great, but somewhat underwritten.

HOWEVER, the film actually starts to falter once he actually becomes Batman. The plot twist NEVER surprised me (even on first viewing), the crime drama element that made Gotham so intriguing under Falcone's reign gets thrown away, and the action makes Greengrass look locked in and focused. Combine that with a dull love interest (to me), a nerfed Ra's (which makes the character more boring), a device that is still fantastical and unrealistic, a scarecrow who's better WITHOUT his mask, and an attempt to avoid killing that appears to blow up a group of people, and that cumulatively takes the film down several notches.

HOWEVER, I'm not as worried for MOS, because it can finally embrace the idea of superhuman characters and powers once this film becomes somewhat cookie-cutter. And I'm fairly certain it will at a point.

The key for this third act, is action. And MOS looks to have incredible action.
Also Lane's an actual comics character, played by a very strong actress. She HAS to be better than Dawes.

I thought Bale was okay but I never fully believed his performance in Begins, I will agree that the first hour of Begins is great and that the second hour just drags it way down. If the film had kept the first hour's level of quality I'd be praising the **** out of it to this very day.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Yeah totally, she clearly has an important role in the Superman mythos but this film is about Clark's journey and like Begins was Bruce Wayne's nothing should detract from this.

Good. I'd like it to be "Sleepless and Seattle-style" in terms of parallel narration once Lois enters the fray. I think it would be great to see her opinions of Clark melded by the people she interviews.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I thought Bale was okay but I never fully believed his performance in Begins, I will agree that the first hour of Begins is great and that the second hour just drags it way down. If the film had kept the first hour's level of quality I'd be praising the **** out of it to this very day.

The majority of the last hour is great. Microwave emitter climax sucked. But you know what? TDK's climax (ferry boats/sonar) is even worse. In both cases, they made up for it with brilliant ending scenes.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

For the record, on the subject of Lois - I am much much more concerned about HOW she is portrayed, than I am how much screen time she has.

I'd take a Lois Lane that actually feels/talks/acts like Lois Lane in a few scenes, than a Lois Lane that feels/talks/acts nothing like her and takes up half the movie.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

The movie isn't about Lois so I'm fine with her not dominating the film like she wrongheadedly did in Returns. That doesn't mean that the character shouldn't be developed, all the main characters should be a little developed.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I don't really get the bechdel test stuff... I mean, it's a Superman movie... pretty much none of the characters are going to be talking about anything other than Superman...

Jor-el and Zod will be argueing about Kal-el. Jonathon and Martha will be talking about Clark. Lois and Perry/Jenny/anyone in the office will be talking about her story - Superman. Lois and Martha will talk about Clark. Faora and Lois might talk about Superman (or Zod). Faora and Martha will argue about Clark.

I don't really see where it would be appropriate in this film to insert a scene in which Lois and Martha have a chat about something other than Clark. Or where Faora and Lois have a bonding moment.

It doesn't make it sexist. It just makes logical sense for the plot to revolve around the central protagonist, who happens to be a man.

Not according to Lex Luthor.

[BLACKOUT]"All men are created equal. All men. You are not a man!"
[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Rhonimus]

I don't really get the bechdel test stuff... I mean, it's a Superman movie... pretty much none of the characters are going to be talking about anything other than Superman...


I don't really see where it would be appropriate in this film to insert a scene in which Lois and Martha have a chat about something other than Clark. Or where Faora and Lois have a bonding moment.

It doesn't make it sexist. It just makes logical sense for the plot to revolve around the central protagonist, who happens to be a man.

i don't think many do .. it's rubbish

much like the Gretchel test .. if two men have dialogue and they DON'T talk about some woman then the entire movie fails & needs to be incinerated immediately

 

[Kevin Smith]

I think Batman Begins is the MOST thorough origin on film, going from boyhood to Batman, and spending a LONG time showing how he got the mentality that drives the character. It's also Bale's best performance as the character. The scenes with Alfred and Wayne are also the best of the series. Gary Oldman's also great, but somewhat underwritten.

HOWEVER, the film actually starts to falter once he actually becomes Batman. The plot twist NEVER surprised me (even on first viewing), the crime drama element that made Gotham so intriguing under Falcone's reign gets thrown away, and the action makes Greengrass look locked in and focused. Combine that with a dull love interest (to me), a nerfed Ra's (which makes the character more boring), a device that is still fantastical and unrealistic, a scarecrow who's better WITHOUT his mask, and an attempt to avoid killing that appears to blow up a group of people, and that cumulatively takes the film down several notches.

HOWEVER, I'm not as worried for MOS, because it can finally embrace the idea of superhuman characters and powers once this film becomes somewhat cookie-cutter. And I'm fairly certain it will at a point.

The key for this third act, is action. And MOS looks to have incredible action.
Also Lane's an actual comics character, played by a very strong actress. She HAS to be better than Dawes.

I love Begins, but it always feels somewhat "dull" to me in a way simply because the "coolness" factor of Batman just isn't there. The epic and "awesome" aspect of his character is really downplayed, almost to a fault, IMO. MOS seems to have kept that aspect of Superman in tact, or perhaps they had to since he IS an alien from another planet who can fly and this version of Superman is still tantamount to that? Idk....point is while I like Begins a lot and liked it the more I watched it, I can understand peoples criticisms with it being "dull" or whatever. They took a lot of Batman out of Batman in a way and were a little more "apologetic" with some of it than they were with Superman from the looks of it.


Oh and...

Dat Snyder, I lurve that guy.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Not according to Lex Luthor.

[BLACKOUT]"All men are created equal. All men. You are not a man!"
[/BLACKOUT]

 

[DKDetective]

The majority of the last hour is great. Microwave emitter climax sucked. But you know what? TDK's climax (ferry boats/sonar) is even worse. In both cases, they made up for it with brilliant ending scenes.

Call me a sucker, but I love the party scene, Ra's's return, and the scene with Alfred in the elevator. Sure, you can see the twist coming a mile away, but that is not the point.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Film is art, tests like that are utterly pointless. You just can't judge art like that.

As for Begins; It's an agree to disagree thing, I liked the film but I felt the last half, especially the 3rd act was a hot mess. I understand that people loved it and I'm not trying to **** in their cornflakes. By all means love it. I love things about it to be sure but overall it left me disappointed after all the hype.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Call me a sucker, but I love the party scene, Ra's's return, and the scene with Alfred in the elevator. Sure, you can see the twist coming a mile away, but that is not the point.

That scene is great. The problem with the film isn't that scene, it's the microwave emitter. But the third act climax is a problem in pretty much every superhero movie.

 

[STARMAN]

Despite it's flaws, I like Batman Begins the most out of the trilogy.

As for Lois, even if she's underdeveloped or given some poor dialogue, Amy Adam's acting ability should be able to make the most of the material. That's the advantage you have when you cast her.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Call me a sucker, but I love the party scene, Ra's's return, and the scene with Alfred in the elevator. Sure, you can see the twist coming a mile away, but that is not the point.

Yeah, I loved those scenes too, I kind of wish they'd have kept that scene that was in the original script where before Wayne goes out to the party Alfred stops him because he still has the raccoon makeup on. Would have been great, IMO.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

The best mid sentence explosion death was George Kirk in Star Trek.

I definitely agree. Now that was a sad moment.

Getting kinda choked up thinking about it.