All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - Part 90

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Jor-El's desire for his child was for Kal-El to choose what he wanted to do with his life.

remember, on Krypton, every being was predestined before they were born to do a certain task... Jor-El wanted to free his son from that chain. He gave his son a chance to live on a planet to where he had free will, a choice to do either good or evil. Jonathan Kent solidified that in Clark's mind even further
 
Clark became Superman under the influence of Jor-El. It wasn't 100% his decision. And then Zod showed up and Clark felt forced to come out as Supes. That was a bummer.
 
Jor-El's motivations did imply that he was interested in giving Krypton another chance. But he wasn't like General Zod in the sense that he would do it no matter what, thus he left Kal-El with the choice of reviving Krypton if he wanted to via making his DNA the Codex. Kal's choice speaks for itself.

I don't know. Seemed like Jor-El would've liked Kal-El to form some sort of bridge between Earth and Krypton and not straight up destroy all those babies. But, he also didn't take into account that Zod might be around to screw things up. He probably would've preferred for nothing to be done with them... which also now also makes me wonder if they were even alive since that ship was so old.

Oh, well. This was a weird take on things anyway.
 
are you joking? i am trying to have a debate with you.

your whole post is copy/paste dialoge from the movie .and you are describing scenes from the movie. i am not trying to change your opinion of the movie. i am asking you why couldnt he do it alone. wouldnt you?

you wrotte Jonathan's teachings were all about "Someday, you'll have to make a decision on what kind of man you want to become." but he doesnt. he doesnt make this choice. before finding the ship he is doing what his father told him. hidding. and he is hidding like a cat or a dog. after he talks to the hologram he does everything the hologram tells him. the hologram told him that he can save her and save all of them.

at the end you wrotte that i dont get it. that is not nice. since my whole post was asking questions and writting that i disagree with the decision that the creative made. it doesnt have to be black and white. i like you or i dont like the movie. i am right or you are wrong. it can be more complicated. we can have deep debates. :woot::up:


that my internet friends is whats scaring me. the internet is changing. i understand that you get very short opinions about movie on bodybuilding and car forums . MOS is praised on those forums. MOS is a badass movie to those people who go in the theater to see action and badass man punching and kicking. but i hope we on SHH are doing something more then just writting like ,hate,bad,good.

I hate for my first post to be jumping into a debate, but I kind of feel the need to hop into this discussion.

It feels as if you are misconstruing what was said. Yes, Jor-El said to Kal, "You can save them". This was not an order. This was an encouragement, a statement of the purest truth: Kal had the capability to save people.

Clark could have stepped back and said, "No, not this way", or perhaps, chosen to not involve himself in the battle at all. He could have chosen to work with Zod.

Jor-El explained what he hoped could be accomplished by Clark. He wanted him to know, and feel encouraged by the ideals and dreams of his biological parents. Clark was shaped by the ideals and dreams of his adoptive parents. The Kents gave Clark a sense of responsibility, a moral compass, they taught him love and compassion, and they showed him that there are humans with value, that there are people in the world worth saving.

Now, you can question the wisdom of the parents. Of course; they are not perfect people. And this was perhaps my favorite thing about the movie: Everyone was flawed. There was no perfect character, no perfect person. Superman, both sets of parents, the military, Lois...they all made mistakes. There were not-so-great decisions made. And that made the film more enjoyable for me, because I could totally understand the motivations of every single character, even if I found their choices to be wrong or questionable. It's one of the few super hero films where I have felt empathy for, and connected to the main character.

Who hasn't felt alone?

And that right there is a big thing I've seen mentioned in the past few pages.

"Superman didn't do things alone".

Of course he didn't. Why wouldn't he seek help? He's not trained in combat, he's not a military genius. And the people of the planet he lives on have the right to fight alongside him if they choose. Who is he to tell them not to?

Besides, it showed something beautiful, which was that Superman is NOT alone. That despite his differences, his strength, the fact that he is the last of his kind...that after all that, he is NOT totally alone.

My absolute favorite moment in the film is right after Clark kills Zod. He cries out his anger, his regret, his grief. He looks well and truly alone, but then Lois shows up, and she holds him as he breaks. He's not alone, he doesn't have to be alone.

I don't see a problem with that.
 
I just got the novel; I don't know if it offers anything new than insight, which a novel would do anyway, but I just had to get it. Plus, other than being a good companion piece, it would be my only access to the film until its released on Blu-ray.
 
I hate for my first post to be jumping into a debate, but I kind of feel the need to hop into this discussion.

It feels as if you are misconstruing what was said. Yes, Jor-El said to Kal, "You can save them". This was not an order. This was an encouragement, a statement of the purest truth: Kal had the capability to save people.

Clark could have stepped back and said, "No, not this way", or perhaps, chosen to not involve himself in the battle at all. He could have chosen to work with Zod.

Jor-El explained what he hoped could be accomplished by Clark. He wanted him to know, and feel encouraged by the ideals and dreams of his biological parents. Clark was shaped by the ideals and dreams of his adoptive parents. The Kents gave Clark a sense of responsibility, a moral compass, they taught him love and compassion, and they showed him that there are humans with value, that there are people in the world worth saving.

Now, you can question the wisdom of the parents. Of course; they are not perfect people. And this was perhaps my favorite thing about the movie: Everyone was flawed. There was no perfect character, no perfect person. Superman, both sets of parents, the military, Lois...they all made mistakes. There were not-so-great decisions made. And that made the film more enjoyable for me, because I could totally understand the motivations of every single character, even if I found their choices to be wrong or questionable. It's one of the few super hero films where I have felt empathy for, and connected to the main character.

Who hasn't felt alone?

And that right there is a big thing I've seen mentioned in the past few pages.

"Superman didn't do things alone".

Of course he didn't. Why wouldn't he seek help? He's not trained in combat, he's not a military genius. And the people of the planet he lives on have the right to fight alongside him if they choose. Who is he to tell them not to?

Besides, it showed something beautiful, which was that Superman is NOT alone. That despite his differences, his strength, the fact that he is the last of his kind...that after all that, he is NOT totally alone.

My absolute favorite moment in the film is right after Clark kills Zod. He cries out his anger, his regret, his grief. He looks well and truly alone, but then Lois shows up, and she holds him as he breaks. He's not alone, he doesn't have to be alone.

I don't see a problem with that.

Welcome, great first post. I agree with all you said, especially the bold. I really appreciate that no one was perfect, including Superman.
 
Clark became Superman under the influence of Jor-El. It wasn't 100% his decision. And then Zod showed up and Clark felt forced to come out as Supes. That was a bummer.

thats kind of how it was done in the Donner films
 
in the 1st Superman movie, you could say Clark didn't "choose" to become Superman either. after he goes to the arctic and "builds" the FOS, he goes in and gets "mind-trained" or whatever by Jor-El and then emerges 10+ years later as a fully-fledged Superman.

so, one could argue that the Jor-El in the 1st movie had a much more "active" role in preparing Clark to become Superman than the MOS Jor-El did.

in MOS, as I've said before, Clark always had the mindset of helping people. The conflict was always how to do that without exposing himself.

once Clark discovers the scout ship, meets with Jor-El, learns about his heritage and what the El crest stands for, and gets his costume, he has now found a "public" outlet/identity he can use to help people.

the arrival of Zod and co just thrusts him into a situation where he has to "debut" right away and save the world on a grand scale.
 
I don't know. Seemed like Jor-El would've liked Kal-El to form some sort of bridge between Earth and Krypton and not straight up destroy all those babies. But, he also didn't take into account that Zod might be around to screw things up. He probably would've preferred for nothing to be done with them... which also now also makes me wonder if they were even alive since that ship was so old.

Oh, well. This was a weird take on things anyway.

If anything, the fact that Jor-El stole the Codex implies that he didn't want Zod to be the leader and to determine Krypton's populations through when he said (and likely their expedition considering the planet is in grave danger).

General Zod: Then join me, help me save our race. We'll start a new, we'll sever the degenerative bloodline that led us to this state.
Jor-El: And who will decide which bloodline survives on, you?

The prequel comic implied that Kara is the sole survivor of the crashing FoS ship, but we don't know if she's survived for 20,000 years old and then some.
 
If anything, the fact that Jor-El stole the Codex implies that he didn't want Zod to be the leader and to determine Krypton's populations through when he said (and likely their expedition considering the planet is in grave danger).



The prequel comic implied that Kara is the sole survivor of the crashing FoS ship, but we don't know if she's survived for 20,000 years old and then some.

Yeah, I know he stole it to keep Zod from being successful with his plan. But, I'm sure he didn't count on Zod being around given that fact that he likely would've died on Krypton had he not been put in the PZ.

I'm just saying that since the ship wasn't be used (and even crashed), that it wouldn't work well enough to keep those babies alive. But, I guess it did.
 
man....I can't wait till the Blu-Ray comes out!!!

I have to tide myself over by watching the little Superman vs Faora clip over and over again........lol
 
Yeah, I know he stole it to keep Zod from being successful with his plan. But, I'm sure he didn't count on Zod being around given that fact that he likely would've died on Krypton had he not been put in the PZ.

I'm just saying that since the ship wasn't be used (and even crashed), that it wouldn't work well enough to keep those babies alive. But, I guess it did.

No one could, unless there was something wrong? Though, I'm sure Jor-El knew Zod was going to be arrested for his coup.

Idk, I'm pretty sure the comic didn't reference that the ship had any children in the ship, so I'm guessing it was strictly exploration instead of colonization?
 
no, the scout ship had a Genesis Chamber. think the comic mentions that, too.

but the Genesis Chamber was empty/inactive because it needs the codex. iow, there aren't any embryos forming.....
 
No one could, unless there was something wrong? Though, I'm sure Jor-El knew Zod was going to be arrested for his coup.

Idk, I'm pretty sure the comic didn't reference that the ship had any children in the ship, so I'm guessing it was strictly exploration instead of colonization?

What he should've done was never tell Zod about his boy-child.

I don't think the comic showed it, but the film did. It was that Matrix thing they had. I guess the plan during their space age was to mass populate right away whatever planets they liked. Though, I guess they would have to wait for Krypton to give them the go-ahead and have access to the Codex. I don't know.
 
there is a line '' you can save her.....you can save everyone''. why did he need to tell him that? at that moment he should be ready to do this without him. i disagree with this decision from WB and Goyer.

There was a lot of that going on in this film. It's one of my main issues with it. Goyer's attempt at adding dramatic weight came off very forced and unecessary. He constantly chose to have characters verbally explain everything as if the crowd is in kindergarten. At that point in the movie, I don't think there was a soul in the audience who didn't think Supes could save Lois in that pod. I mean c'mon.
 
There was a lot of that going on in this film. It's one of my main issues with it. Goyer's attempt at adding dramatic weight came off very forced and unecessary. He constantly chose to have characters verbally explain everything as if the crowd is in kindergarten. At that point in the movie, I don't think there was a soul in the audience who didn't think Supes could save Lois in that pod. I mean c'mon.

It's not an explanation. Why do people keep forgetting this is an inexperienced Clark? People are reading way too much into single lines. All it is is a father reassuring his son. It's equivalent to saying, "You can do this, boy!"
 
h10B21C29
 
It's not an explanation. Why do people keep forgetting this is an inexperienced Clark? People are reading way too much into single lines. All it is is a father reassuring his son. It's equivalent to saying, "You can do this, boy!"

HAHA, exactly. There's nothing wrong with that line, imo. "You can save her... You can save all of them".
 
^ Yeah. He was drained physically and emotionally and needed some encouragement. I love his face he gets when he flies back to Lois.
 
no, the scout ship had a Genesis Chamber. think the comic mentions that, too.

but the Genesis Chamber was empty/inactive because it needs the codex. iow, there aren't any embryos forming.....

But the prequel comic ALSO mentions a "Growth Codex" which as I understand it is just a small sampling of the main Codex back on the home world, so yes each scout ship would be able to create at least some Kryptonian beings to start the colonization of a given world.

We're not shown all this in MoS but it's in the prequel comic.

Would be kind of silly to send out thousands upon thousands of scout ships and put a Genesis Chamber on each scout ship ready to go and then... not include at least the templates for a few dozen Kryptonians at the bare minimum.

They may have no idea how far away a scout ship would travel, how long it would take to get their (even in spite of their civilization being at least 100,000-200,000 years old or more), so it's completely illogical to not include a small portion of the Codex along with each Genesis Chamber to literally be able to kick start the civilization at whatever colonial outpost they may end up creating.

The World Engine != a population, that only recreates the planetary environment suitable for Kryptonian life, so that means they gotta get things rolling somehow.

When I read the prequel comic again before seeing the movie the first time I caught that where Dev-Em specifically says "Once on the ground I'll just activate the Growth Codex and grow some new Kryptonians" and then I understood that even without the primary Codex, the full one stolen from Krypton and merged into Kal's cells, that they'd still be able to spread the Kryptonian civilization because of those small samplings on each scout ship.
 
Clark became Superman under the influence of Jor-El. It wasn't 100% his decision. And then Zod showed up and Clark felt forced to come out as Supes. That was a bummer.

Actually, you're wrong, and I think this is based on how the plot was developed and how it influenced the characters that makes you say that.

When the film opens, we see the natural birth of Kal-El: because Kryptonians are born artificial and thus their destinies are pre-planned, Jor-El and Lara wanted their son to have the freedom to be whatever he wanted. Remember Jor-El's line: "what if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society intended? What if a child inspired in becoming something greater?" His birth happens before Krypton's fate is revealed by Jor-El, and with that, by the time he prepares Kal-El to leave Krypton, he picks Earth because of the younger yellow sun will strengthen him, and in his own words, "he'll be a god to them."

If you think about it, it is the same idea, just refined given the events of the movie. It's giving Kal-El freedom to be what he wants to become, but it's also fitting into what Jor-El says about a child becoming something other than what society intended/becoming something greater. It's also very similar to Pa Kent throughout the film, as times changed but it's the same idea but refined. Setting with flashbacks from younger Clark to teenager Clark: he sees his son running around with a red cape, thinking that he might be a hero in the making, but the question is will humanity accept him. It's evident when Clark's strength increases, saves a bus, and Pa has to reveal why he has to keep what he can do a secret: he's an alien, and there's no telling what will happen to any of them if Clark was discovered. This is also why Pa, later on, gives the advice that the man he'll become will change the world, and that it is for him to decide if he will stand with or against the human race. All this leads to when Pa dies: why did he die, and why did he forbade his son to save him, regardless of Clark a moment earlier arguing with both Pa and Ma that half of Smallville was suspicious of Clark since he saved the bus? Because humanity wasn't ready for Clark; he didn't feel they were ready for his son by the time he died. And regardless of what had changed between the years (which always happens), and Pa talking about which side Clark would choose versus years later when Pa arguing to Clark about doing something other than the Kent family farm business, it always remained that one idea/reason. Just like Jor-El.

If you think about it, regardless of how different, Jor-El and Pa Kent were the same when it came to their fathering of their son. Plus, thinking about everything the film gave us, and us putting things together ourselves, or with help from the novel, gives us a movie where the audience participates.

P.S. just in case this is brought up; the movie clearly shows that Clark was a hero because that's what he is, and thus you never really needed to know why he choose that. I don't get why some critics argued that there had to be a reason "shrugs".
 
finally the ban is over and can post again!!!
saw this movie today for the 10th time its so amazing !!!
i must be pretty dumb because i just noticed for the first time that joe the guy that grabs lois luggage off the helicopter is actually clark kent i had never noticed that until today and i understand why her saying be careful its heavy was meant to be funny EL O EL
 
I pointed this out a few days ago and nobody seems to have caught it (or people could just not give a damn, I don't know at this point) so I'll broach it once more and then let it die I suppose:

During the "dream sequence" where Zod is probing Kal's mind for information and Zod makes all his explanations of what's going on, his motivations, etc trying his best to convince Kal that he alone knows what's best for Krypton now and wants Kal to be a part of his grand plan... there's that now somewhat haunting imagery of Kal sinking into a "foundation" of human skulls - all around him the land is mostly barren, with some items close by (a swing set on one side, torn up country home on the right - with a windmill, even, pretty much the remnants of the Kent farm) and a super-duper huge yellow sun in that background.

But then the camera angle changes and we see...

Zod, and behind him we see some city of some kind, with skyscrapers in various conditions of destruction, apparently the aftermath of some major huge event that's destroyed pretty much everything from horizon to horizon and...

Up there, above and behind Zod we see our Moon, cracked in half and with huge chunks of it apparently close by as though something had pretty much busted it wide open from the inside. Hrmmm...

And for those that might dismiss this line of thinking: I did that myself the first time I saw the movie, thinking it was just a cloud hovering between the Moon and our point of view up over Zod's shoulder.

At least that was what I thought the first time. On the second, third, fourth, and fifth viewings my focus in that scene was directly on that Moon sitting up there and it ain't a cloud covering up part of the Moon - the Moon has been pretty much destroyed by something and my belief is that Zod is toying around with Kal at this point but it makes a perfect opportunity to point something out:

Even at this moment, before Zod knows where the Codex actually is (that comes a bit later since the blood hasn't even been extracted and tested yet) he's already made up his mind to destroy Earth as the foundation for rebuilding Krypton.

WHADDUPWITDAT!?!?! :D
 

Of course not. People can only think they are right. I mean god forbid someone interpreted the film differently.
Jesus, is the dick measuring from the Box office thread spreading into here ?
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