All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 92

[Skrilla31]

So let me guess, the action was repetitive, too long, and numbing. And the romance was forced, and the non-linear storytelling broke up the pace of the film. All of that ruined the film and made it one of the worst of the year. Am I right?

In a nutshell? Yes. Also don't forget the shoddy directing, shoddy writing, hammy dialogue, underdeveloped characters, and the fact that it was all completely lacking human emotion.

 

[Herolee10]

True, I was jsut making the point that it's a villain that we haven't seen.

I'd like to see MoS2 introduce Lex (with battlesuit) and Metallo. That could set up for Brainiac to be introduced in MoS3, which shows off the Brainiac/Lex dynamic.

That could work as well. Though to be honest, in my own opinion of course, I think this set up would/could work as well for future films involving Superman:

1. MOS 2: Use Lex and the Elite. Now I know some say that the Elite wouldn't work within the DC world that MOS first established, but given on how the filmmakers would probably want to go off of the consequences from Superman having taken Zod's life, along with him trying to further establish himself to humanity as its protector and hero, I think the Elite would really work well here.

If anyone's seen the animated short, "Superman vs the Elite", it really executes the whole concept of Superman having to deal with the idea of killing off his villains and how the Elite tries to antagonize him into doing so, wholeheartedly believing that it's the way that any real hero should do, etc.

Plus, given that we're building to a world where Superman will come across the other DC heroes at some point, I think the presence of the Elite could give the idea to Superman that being a part of a group of real heroes who share similar ethics like him would help Earth better, thus setting him up to start looking for those heroes in the JL film.


2. MOS 3: It could deal with Brainiac, though I think taking Superman to space to attack him would work better here, just like how they did for the animated film Superman: Unbound. The reason why I say that is because it could get rid of the issue of why Superman didn't call for aid when Brainiac arrived, thus allowing Superman to be pushed to his limits from Brainiac, and it could further introduce more DC worlds and end with the conclusion that Superman will be the bridge for humans and aliens all around the galaxy to unite, thus possibly ending with a epilogue scene in the 31st century where we see the Legion of Superheroes, a group of alien heroes that were inspired by Superman's heroics.

 

[king666]

I hope they forget the codex thing. They shouldn't focus on Krypton's mythology, they should focus on Superman. I'd be fine with the Brainiac and Kandor storyline, though. Opening MOS2 with the Kandor vs. Brainiac scene would be nice.

 

[king666]

Lex Parasite for me. Have the story be smaller, much more character driven, less world threat more personal. Save Brainiac for the 3rd.

This.

 

[DChero]

That could work as well. Though to be honest, in my own opinion of course, I think this set up would/could work as well for future films involving Superman:

1. MOS 2: Use Lex and the Elite. Now I know some say that the Elite wouldn't work within the DC world that MOS first established, but given on how the filmmakers would probably want to go off of the consequences from Superman having taken Zod's life, along with him trying to further establish himself to humanity as its protector and hero, I think the Elite would really work well here.

If anyone's seen the animated short, "Superman vs the Elite", it really executes the whole concept of Superman having to deal with the idea of killing off his villains and how the Elite tries to antagonize him into doing so, wholeheartedly believing that it's the way that any real hero should do, etc.

Plus, given that we're building to a world where Superman will come across the other DC heroes at some point, I think the presence of the Elite could give the idea to Superman that being a part of a group of real heroes who share similar ethics like him would help Earth better, thus setting him up to start looking for those heroes in the JL film.


2. MOS 3: It could deal with Brainiac, though I think taking Superman to space to attack him would work better here, just like how they did for the animated film Superman: Unbound. The reason why I say that is because it could get rid of the issue of why Superman didn't call for aid when Brainiac arrived, thus allowing Superman to be pushed to his limits from Brainiac, and it could further introduce more DC worlds and end with the conclusion that Superman will be the bridge for humans and aliens all around the galaxy to unite, thus possibly ending with a epilogue scene in the 31st century where we see the Legion of Superheroes, a group of alien heroes that were inspired by Superman's heroics.

I think that it may be a little early to introduce the Elite because they would have been established before the Flash, Green Lantern, etc. Just my opinion on them at this time.

I really like Brainiac for part three. They definitely should bring Superman into space at some point, but I don't think they should build the whole movie around it. I think Snyder even said something to the effect that Superman has to hold his breath in space. Could we see Supes in a battlesuit rebreather?

I'd like to see Brainiac's ship involved a lot though, specifically because it could show what he's been doing to other planets. I'm also interested in Brainiac's sexually confused robotic sidekick.

 

[C. Lee]

A reminder to EVERYONE......be civil....you can discuss, debate, and argue without being rude or calling people names.

 

[Willi Berg]

Dylan Sprayberry (Young Clark Kent) recently tweeted this:

GUESS WHO'S GOING TO COMIC CON?!?! This guy ! Hope to see ya there

P.S. I will be on THE MAN OF STEEL PANEL !!!!!!!!!!

https://***********/DSprayberry

 

[DChero]

Dylan Sprayberry (Young Clark Kent) recently tweeted this:





https://***********/DSprayberry

What a turn of events?

Thanks for posting!

 

[Smallville13]

The thing is though, we needed to have a super villain that could take Superman to his physical limits in this film since that has been one of the STRONGEST criticisms that people have had regarding his franchise for a long time and I really doubt that the likes of Metallo or Parasite would have been able to cut it, especially with the former's main advantage at Superman being that he has a heart of Kryptonite within him.

And we'd still have to take some time in order to establish the main villain in the film and I think Zod works just fine with an origin film since he comes with the whole Krypton back story.

Like Goyer said, Zod was the perfect choice in this case for an origin film.

See I think that's a misconception that the previous Superman films have unfortunately brought.

The instigator for Superman outing himself could have been because of some fictitious war overseas that serves as allegory for the conflicts overseas in our world. We have Clark just not willing to stand by and watch people get murdered over there. Then the film deals with the military and world responding to Superman. No doubt bring Luthor in to deal with the 'threat'. This kind of thing will probably be something like where the sequel will go though.

Sadly to drop the preconceptions of Superman not being 'cool' to the kids these days they needed to have someone for him to fight. Obviously it didn't go down well with the critics. But we should all know this isn't necessary to the character. His main mission is to save people.

And you're right herolee10, the next film should hopefully be more of a character drama. MOS started like that and then turned into just CGI destruction and fighting. My favorite parts of the film though are the flashbacks and Clark in Alaska and interacting with Lois and his mother. I hope we get more of that. There's something so perfect about that scene when Clark comes home to his mother for me. I wish I saw the continuation of that movie.

 

[GreenKToo]

The only problem I have with using Lex in a sequel is, if they go with a smaller more intimate film will the public be turned off by it after seeing what we saw in MoS.

I mean how can you go from knocking down Metropolis in MoS to playing mindgames with Lex in a sequel. sure you could have parasite or someone similar be the muscle, ie, lex recovers some tech from the crashed ships, and creates him or bizarro, etc.. Even with that, I'm kinda doubtful the action would be on a scale that we saw in MoS.

I would be all for it myself but im not so sure the action driven crowd would.

 

[Smallville13]

The only problem I have with using Lex in a sequel is, if they go with a smaller more intimate film will the public be turned off by it after seeing what we saw in MoS.

I mean how can you go from knocking down Metropolis in MoS to playing mindgames with Lex in a sequel. sure you could have parasite or someone similar be the muscle, ie, lex recovers some tech from the crashed ships, and creates him or bizarro, etc.. Even with that, I'm kinda doubtful the action would be on a scale that we saw in MoS.

I would be all for it myself but im not so sure the action driven crowd would.

Have Lex develop Kryptonite-fueled big military hardware like this:

 

[DChero]

We could always put Lex in one of these...

Spoiler

 

[DChero]

He's older than Christian Bale so is really not a long term option.

I agree. It looks like the sweet spot would be someone in their early to mid 30's because he should appear close to Superman's age.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Have Lex develop Kryptonite-fueled big military hardware like this:

I would like to see that. You need something for Superman to throw punches against. Superman did that against multiple characters in MOS, having him just do that against one character (Metallo or Parasite) in the sequel I don't think is enough. Having him fight an army of robots would solve that problem.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

The only problem I have with using Lex in a sequel is, if they go with a smaller more intimate film will the public be turned off by it after seeing what we saw in MoS.

I mean how can you go from knocking down Metropolis in MoS to playing mindgames with Lex in a sequel. sure you could have parasite or someone similar be the muscle, ie, lex recovers some tech from the crashed ships, and creates him or bizarro, etc.. Even with that, I'm kinda doubtful the action would be on a scale that we saw in MoS.

I would be all for it myself but im not so sure the action driven crowd would.

Nah, if it's a good enough movie, it will have legs. If anything, I think the sequel will have to overcome a financial hit from disenfranchised moviegoers over MOS 1. RT's audience score is about Thor's level of satisfaction (and that's assuming it doesn't drop).

I like MOS, but I don't think audiences are fond of it. I don't think they HATE it, though.

 

[Marvin]

I think that it may be a little early to introduce the Elite because they would have been established before the Flash, Green Lantern, etc. Just my opinion on them at this time.

And the problem with that is?

I for one prefer that to the alternative, in which we get an IM3 like disregard of the simple fact that superman can call in backup at any moment in light of the international threat. I just don't invest in that sort of drama.

MoS2 would be the perfect stage for such a thing imo, especially now that there is a heroic violence issue to address.

 

[DChero]

And the problem with that is?

I for one prefer that to the alternative, in which we get an IM3 like disregard of the simple fact that superman can call in backup at any moment in light of the international threat. I just don't invest in that sort of drama.

MoS2 would be the perfect stage for such a thing imo, especially now that there is a heroic violence issue to address.

It's cool. We just agree to disagree on that.

I do agree with your point that once they "team up" they would have the option to call backup at almost any time. I think this is why an all-out Justice League movie should be saved after these characters are each established individually.

 

[Smallville13]

I think I've landed on what disappoints me most with the movie.

The first half really sets the film up to be an existentialist character drama, and look into Superman on Earth, and what that would be like.

There's some excellent character moments between Jor-El and Lara, young Clark and his folks, Clark and Lois at the cemetery, and Clark and Martha, and even the priest. Come the Smallville fight though this is completely abandoned save for one small scene where he checks back with Martha in his suit. The next character moment really isn't until he is forced to kill Zod.

The entire film just becomes plot and faux sci-fi driven or derailed. Add to that it's just full-Snyder CGI destruction and fighting (not to mention alot of death). We're given another final character moment between Clark and his mother and the flashback. But by that point the film is just too far removed from what it set out to do, and alienated everyone expecting something more than just your typical Summer blockbuster. Superman doesn't represent hope to everyone on Earth in the film, all they've seen of him has been surrounded by death and destruction.

 

[Tempest]

The only problem I have with using Lex in a sequel is, if they go with a smaller more intimate film will the public be turned off by it after seeing what we saw in MoS.

I mean how can you go from knocking down Metropolis in MoS to playing mindgames with Lex in a sequel. sure you could have parasite or someone similar be the muscle, ie, lex recovers some tech from the crashed ships, and creates him or bizarro, etc.. Even with that, I'm kinda doubtful the action would be on a scale that we saw in MoS.

I would be all for it myself but im not so sure the action driven crowd would.

I don't think people necessarily expect Superman to be filled with quite so much action -- in fact, the action is one of the biggest complaints. I love action, and even I felt it was a little too fast, a little too much.

The film would be fine with two small fights/action sequences, and one big battle scene. The rest of the film could be developed around the investigative journalism of Clark and Lois. I'd prefer it if they were more of a team, instead of being competitive. If the writers manage to take out some of the dry humor, and add some really light moments, the film will be fine -- and possibly even a bigger success than MOS.

We'll have to see. Second films sometimes turn out to be the ugliest, so....

Nah, if it's a good enough movie, it will have legs. If anything, I think the sequel will have to overcome a financial hit from disenfranchised moviegoers over MOS 1. RT's audience score is about Thor's level of satisfaction (and that's assuming it doesn't drop).

I like MOS, but I don't think audiences are fond of it. I don't think they HATE it, though.

I think the biggest problem with MOS, other than the almost-too-much-action, was the Codex. They spent a lot of time on it, and it was confusing. It's great for comic book fans, but for others, it was hard to keep that aspect of the story straight.

That said, I do think that this Superman has been well-received by people who saw it. I work in retail, and in an office setting, and I use movies and such for small talk. The people who have seen the film really seemed to have enjoyed it.

 

[DChero]

I think I've landed on what disappoints me most with the movie.

The first half really sets the film up to be an existentialist character drama, and look into Superman on Earth, and what that would be like.

There's some excellent character moments between Jor-El and Lara, young Clark and his folks, Clark and Lois at the cemetery, and Clark and Martha, and even the priest. Come the Smallville fight though this is completely abandoned save for one small scene where he checks back with Martha in his suit. The next character moment really isn't until he is forced to kill Zod.

The entire film just becomes plot and faux sci-fi driven or derailed. Add to that it's just full-Snyder CGI destruction and fighting (not to mention alot of death). We're given another final character moment between Clark and his mother and the flashback. But by that point the film is just too far removed from what it set out to do, and alienated everyone expecting something more than just your typical Summer blockbuster. Superman doesn't represent hope to everyone on Earth in the film, all they've seen of him has been surrounded by death and destruction.

I had some issues with the pacing my first time watching. At first the story editing can feel a little abrasive, for lack of a better word. The second time that I saw it, everything felt much more natural and flowed very well. I guess it was because the first time that I went in I was expecting a more linear pace.

 

[Tempest]

I think I've landed on what disappoints me most with the movie.

The first half really sets the film up to be an existentialist character drama, and look into Superman on Earth, and what that would be like.

There's some excellent character moments between Jor-El and Lara, young Clark and his folks, Clark and Lois at the cemetery, and Clark and Martha, and even the priest. Come the Smallville fight though this is completely abandoned save for one small scene where he checks back with Martha in his suit. The next character moment really isn't until he is forced to kill Zod.

The entire film just becomes plot and faux sci-fi driven or derailed. Add to that it's just full-Snyder CGI destruction and fighting (not to mention alot of death). We're given another final character moment between Clark and his mother and the flashback. But by that point the film is just too far removed from what it set out to do, and alienated everyone expecting something more than just your typical Summer blockbuster. Superman doesn't represent hope to everyone on Earth in the film, all they've seen of him has been surrounded by death and destruction.

Yikes for double posts.

Here's the thing. I don't think it was the script, I think it was the editing. The book shows Clark's compassion a little better, and although the writer has some license to write what he wanted with the book, I suspect that there are scenes of Clark saving people, or checking them over for injuries, or whatever, that simply got lost in the shuffle.

There was a definite fear, I think, that the film would not do so well if there wasn't more action in it, and they over-compensated.

But I don't have an issue with Superman not doing all that stuff, but then, my perception of Superman has never been so sparkling as others have of him.

Like I said, for the GA, I think where the film tripped up was really just by being a Superman film. It's unfortunate, but Superman has been viewed as kind of quaint, perhaps even antiquated. It's going to take a lot to shake off that perception people have. This film was a good (not perfect) step towards making Superman relevant for the next generation.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

We could always put Lex in one of these...

Spoiler

Didn't somebody post a pic of a LexCorp logo on the building Zod shed his armor in? That's a pretty likely way to go about it, I think. I like the military hardware idea, too.

 

[BH/HHH]

The only problem I have with using Lex in a sequel is, if they go with a smaller more intimate film will the public be turned off by it after seeing what we saw in MoS.

I mean how can you go from knocking down Metropolis in MoS to playing mindgames with Lex in a sequel. sure you could have parasite or someone similar be the muscle, ie, lex recovers some tech from the crashed ships, and creates him or bizarro, etc.. Even with that, I'm kinda doubtful the action would be on a scale that we saw in MoS.

I would be all for it myself but im not so sure the action driven crowd would.

There'd stil be huge action set pieces they'll just be more spread out

 

[bluearth]

In a nutshell? Yes. Also don't forget the shoddy directing, shoddy writing, hammy dialogue, underdeveloped characters, and the fact that it was all completely lacking human emotion.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the lack of human emotion in Man of Steel. I thought there were numerous touching moments, from the very beginning to the very end. If you didnt notice them or didnt think they showed enough emotion, well, thats your view of things.

I think I've landed on what disappoints me most with the movie.

The first half really sets the film up to be an existentialist character drama, and look into Superman on Earth, and what that would be like.

There's some excellent character moments between Jor-El and Lara, young Clark and his folks, Clark and Lois at the cemetery, and Clark and Martha, and even the priest. Come the Smallville fight though this is completely abandoned save for one small scene where he checks back with Martha in his suit. The next character moment really isn't until he is forced to kill Zod.

The entire film just becomes plot and faux sci-fi driven or derailed. Add to that it's just full-Snyder CGI destruction and fighting (not to mention alot of death). We're given another final character moment between Clark and his mother and the flashback. But by that point the film is just too far removed from what it set out to do, and alienated everyone expecting something more than just your typical Summer blockbuster. Superman doesn't represent hope to everyone on Earth in the film, all they've seen of him has been surrounded by death and destruction.

The action could have been spread out more proportionately, yes. The smallville fight, in an ideal world, would have happened about 15 minutes earlier in the film, leaving a 20 minute break before there is the World Engine attack, instead of the 5 minute break between Smallville and the World Engine.

But surely you werent expecting it to be a quiet character drama from start to finish? In my opinion the genre of this film is sci-fi, action, drama, in that order. The change in tone from drama to action may have been abrupt, but I was expecting it. I guess others werent.

No matter how ill-timed or extensive the action scenes were I enjoyed them immensely. I guess it comes down to whether or not your a fan of Zack Snyder or if you hate him. I thought Sucker Punch was a decent movie, so I guess thats why I loved the action in Man of Steel and the film overall, because Im a fan of his style.

 

[Smallville13]

Yikes for double posts.

Here's the thing. I don't think it was the script, I think it was the editing. The book shows Clark's compassion a little better, and although the writer has some license to write what he wanted with the book, I suspect that there are scenes of Clark saving people, or checking them over for injuries, or whatever, that simply got lost in the shuffle.

There was a definite fear, I think, that the film would not do so well if there wasn't more action in it, and they over-compensated.

But I don't have an issue with Superman not doing all that stuff, but then, my perception of Superman has never been so sparkling as others have of him.

Like I said, for the GA, I think where the film tripped up was really just by being a Superman film. It's unfortunate, but Superman has been viewed as kind of quaint, perhaps even antiquated. It's going to take a lot to shake off that perception people have. This film was a good (not perfect) step towards making Superman relevant for the next generation.

Y'know I can see this being the truth.

All of the action scenes in the film were no doubt completely Snyder's work. Even that one storyboard artist interviewed (last week?) who worked for Zack said there was parts he would have done different.

I'm sure it's just a bracketed time frame for the action parts that were left by Goyer in the script for Snyder to just go wild, and I'm sure he even extended that bracket too considering the Zod fight/killing wasn't in the original screenplay. I can see Snyder definitely opting to go for punching scenes over Superman taking the time to save people too.