All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

[Marvin]

You know what, man? This whole argument is going nowhere. Post your rebuttal to the last thing I posted and I'll read it, but I probably won't respond to it.

That's a shame, this is one of the discussion I was actually enjoying. Oh well on to my rebuttal. Whether you read it or not, it will exist in all it's glory.

Yes, that would be. But that's not even remotely what I'm asking for.

It's pretty easy to figure out how superman feels about the final situation he's in. The movie does a pretty good job with the characterization leading into the act. I'll take a shot in the dark and assume the kid that saved that bus probably isn't too joyful about the situation he's in, the man that begged zod to spare every human being on the planet earth probably didn't stop giving a care....Do I need him to convey this outwardly for the scene to work. Speaking for myself, no I can put two and two together. What you are implying is that because we supposedly don't see these busts of emotion that it automatically means the character is in fact enacting contradiction...
The only way that would be true is if it was established that Kal was an extrovert, prone to outbursts.
Just saying I don't remember him losing his **** over the oil rig disaster, seems like a somewhat composed individual when he's in the middle of getting the job done(and his loved ones aren't involved).

I'm not talking about him stopping and crying. I'm talking about a reaction shot of a look of horror on his face. I'm talking about one line of dialogue where he expresses concern for civilians during the fight.

just once eh, I see your poin....oh WAIT,

Evidently, he does stop and cry!
Evidently, he does utter ONE line of dialogue where he expresses concern of civilians during the fight.
I know you keep avoiding addressing the train station scene at the climax but sooner or later you are going to have to face it...

Here's the thing, you suggest these things as if they would magically fix all your problems, you present them as such simple fixes in what seems to be an attempt to really show that these producers are inept in missing out on them. I mean surely you aren't asking for too much...right.

See below.

I'm talking about at least making an attempt to take the fight out of the city. Little things. Not pandering, not holding the audiences hand, just little things to maintain the human element of the story.

Zod learns to fly, Superman then quickly takes the battle to the sky finally grasping the upper hand. Superman gives him three powerful blows, each one sending the villain further and further away from ground zero and higher and higher into the sky. How far are these punches sending Zod? One can only assume it's kilometers on end. What happens then? Zod stops and sends superman in the opposite direction with a swift kick.
Apparently superman isn't taking this battle anywhere. Safe to say if Zod didn't stop him, superman would have gotten him out of the city.

Now I assume you will take this scene as you will but in my honest opinion, you have no more grounds to objectively claim the issue was never even broached.
According to your parameter = Human element achieved

Different scenarios. The size and speed of the characters involved alone make it different. Plus, Pacific Rim is a world that's grown accustomed to such events as a result of a twelve year long war, with routine evacuation procedures in major costal cities and soldiers who might be a little more jaded and pragmatic after over a decade of fighting. In Man of Steel this is first contact, and Superman's first time out.

Sorry but the soldiers involved in that fight were shown earlier to be all about saving even the littlest fishing boat(as many MOS detractors liked to mention). These soldiers aren't as jaded to life as you may assume, and they are not being inconsistent either, they are simply doing what they can with what they got in the given circumstances. That happens every now and then, even to superman. The only difference is, MoS didn't talk place in a city with 10years of evacuation protocol.

The size and speed mean little in the face of what the writers deem necessary for the story. One could easily argue that Superman is facing an immovable object, yet you want him taking zod out of the city immediately and you blame the writer(s), for not making it happen. I would have never taken you for one that would actually respect the circumstances of a situation, what with the way you criticize the staging in MOS.

How do you know that? They knocked over skyscrapers. We had no reason to assume there weren't people in them.

Zod brings down one building with his heat vision, this building is evacuated, very clear.
No other sky scrappers are knocked over(that we see).
You should be pleased.

Skyscrapers that almost certainly had people inside of them imploded.

They didn't implode(that would be more hyperbole). But I'll give you this.
However, not only was this not superman's doing but like I said, he was kind of out cold when he came out the other side and then he received several blows to the face and then found himself in space. A reaction shot in the middle of all that would have been neat but I can see why it didn't happen.

I'm being completely consistent. There's nothing selective about by reasoning here. There's nothing wrong with characters making jokes to relieve tension for themselves in tense situations if they're also aware of, reverent towards, and actively trying to stem loss of human life. Which they were. How is that inconsistent or selective?

Well for starters, you are being selective in your continual ignorance to the simple fact that superman is also trying to stem the loss of human life. If you want proof of this, let me paraphrase:
Zod: You chose to save everyone on this here planet over krypton, I'm going to kill and torture everyone on this here planet
Superman: I'm going to stop you....from doing that, I'm going to stem the loss of human life(and mass extinction)
guess that puts him in the clear right?

Time out, when did Hawkeye, Black widow, Stark, Hulk, or Thor make show their reverence(I suppose you aren't going to answer so it's rhetorical)? I know cap did in 2 scenes.
Anyways I'm saying you are being selective because in one breath you are talking about a film that made you and the rest of the "us" feel uncomfortable with how a hero is "reacting" to death, destruction and the loss of life, and in the another breath you are saying you are totally cool with heroes making light of a similar 911 like situation and you are saying that we are comfortable with it. What's more is that you are giving one a pass cause they uttered that they care, and you are condemning the other because you refuse to acknowledge that superman said he cared.

First off, these people don't communicate, they fire off constant jokes at each other with some logic and strategy mixed in.

"Thor is fighting on 10th and main...etc" one guy says, Stark replies with a smirk at the camera, "and he didn't invite me?"
20 people could have been killed at that location for all Stark knows.
Does anyone in the audience feel uncomfortable? I would say no but then again I'm not willing to commit hypocrisy.
When thor and hulk bring a dragon down into grand central station and it's followed by a wonderful comedic beat, that's a certain type of cold, but it's all good, they earned their pass for turning new york destruction into a joke.

Breaking the tension? How many 911 fire fighters were all about breaking the tension 12 years ago in new york(where avengers takes place).
I just think you are being selective about this particular thing.

I'm arguing that he seemed completely unfazed and unconcerned about the destruction around him and it made him and the movie seem cold.

Does a hero need to show his reaction to every person killed during a school shooting or does he need focus on taking the gunman down and cry afterwards? I suppose that may be cold by your definition, I don't think it's cold tbh, I think it's honest, well written real world drama.
That's why I'm ok with the writing here and why you should be too.

been fun.

 

[Marvin]

Starlin wrote that correct in DEATH IN THE FAMILY. The days before Bat-God people. When a guy that practices yoga and martial arts COULD NOT physically affect a being who can survive an atomic explosion.

Kryptonite kinda puts all that rhetoric in the trash though doesn't it?
otherwise maybe we need to revisit all the kryptonite based superman movies of the past 40 years, especially the one that came out in 2006

 

[Lencho01]

Except it's Batman. The most illogical things tend to happen when Batman is involved.

I love the character to death but to say he doesn't get this weird immortality clause would be nothing other than denial.

They'll be a moment in there (if not several) where Batman gets away with stuff like that.

I hope when questioned, his response is "Because I'm Batman!"

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Kryptonite kinda puts all that rhetoric in the trash though doesn't it?
otherwise maybe we need to revisit all the kryptonite based superman movies of the past 40 years, especially the one that came out in 2006

Hey, contrived or not I have no prob with Kryptonite. It's when Batman jumps on the back of Darkseid for a choke hold and does not get turned into a greasy smear on his fist or judo throws someone with Kalibak/Superman level strength. As someone with a little martial arts experience (inspired in part BY Batman) I can tell you that there are limits to what can actually be done by a human being. Also, there is a reason that combat sports across the board have weight divisions. Well, to my mind Superman and equivalent powered beings level of strength and invulnerability put them in another weight class in comparison to regular or even peak humans.

 

[Herolee10]

Except it's Batman. The most illogical things tend to happen when Batman is involved.

I love the character to death but to say he doesn't get this weird immortality clause would be nothing other than denial.

They'll be a moment in there (if not several) where Batman gets away with stuff like that.

If they want to show batman as badass and how he can hold his own weight, instead of putting him against superman they need to show how much of an impact he can have as a hero.

I think the whole DCAU along with any animated film that's come out involving Batman and Superman together is pretty much an indication what we can expect from the two in terms of their dynamics.

The only reason why Batman is allowed to walk all over superman is because he's a human being and readers and writers find it more compelling to have a human being find the means to outsmart the demigod like being in Superman.

If MOS was all about making Superman an badass, then this WF film will be about showing people who the real hero is between Batman and Superman.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think the whole DCAU along with any animated film that's come out involving Batman and Superman together is pretty much an indication what we can expect from the two in terms of their dynamics.

The only reason why Batman is allowed to walk all over superman is because he's a human being and readers and writers find it more compelling to have a human being find the means to outsmart the demigod like being in Superman.

If MOS was all about making Superman an badass, then this WF film will be about showing people who the real hero is between Batman and Superman.

Lee you keep making these statements.... I hate Superman getting nerfed too, but the 100% truth is, we don't know what the dynamic will be, we don't know if they will be antagonistic to a heavy degree, and we don't know how much screentime Batman will even have in comparison to Superman. YOU. ARE. JUMPING. THE. GUN. Period. I don't state this to be mean. I am actually stating it for your own good. You are obsessing over the negative. Ease down on the throttle. You're just grinding metal.

 

[Project862006]

you know what they should have bruce come to metropolis to help rebuild the city along with luthor

that would be kinda neat

 

[Herolee10]

Lee you keep making these statements.... I hate Superman getting nerfed too, but the 100% truth is, we don't know what the dynamic will be, we don't know if they will be antagonistic to a heavy degree, and we don't know how much screentime Batman will even have in comparison to Superman. YOU. ARE. JUMPING. THE. GUN. Period. I don't state this to be mean. I am actually stating it for your own good. You are obsessing over the negative. Ease down on the throttle. You're just grinding metal.

Perhaps; honestly, I still don't know what to make of this situation.

It's definitely ironic to note that back when people were waiting for an SR sequel to be announced, I was eagerly waiting for it to see on where they could go to improve the story, but as we all know, that didn't happen.

Now, with a new film confirmed after MOS, though not a sequel by any means, even though we're getting one, I can't say that I'm looking forward to this at all.

I may have been fine with the idea of a Justice League film because they would have to spend time on other heroes and not have batman and Superman going at each other.

Plus, I'm one of those that believe that if there's a great chance for disappointment, which I believe there is for here, best not to get one's hope up in order to avoid disappointment.

 

[Smallville13]

I watched a JL ep randomly last week and damn Bats really had it in for Supes. I hadn't even really noticed it before. He even had lines like 'The next time I take orders from Superman, punch me in the face'. Like what the hell. There was more too. Ultimately Superman was proven right by the end of the ep (it was one where Darkseid did some deal with Brainiac) regarding whatever but yeah, not sure I want to see that dynamic played out on the big screen. I think it's what they'll do though. I feel the mentality could be that if Batman isn't played as a foil to Supes, and propped up to be his superior in alot of ways, he is kind of useless compared to Supes.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

you know what they should have bruce come to metropolis to help rebuild the city along with luthor

that would be kinda neat

That sounds logical. I actually would love it if at the start Wayne is helping with the rebuilding but Metropolitans and the DP staff are actually wary about an outsider coming in. Maybe they are even suspicious that this is just another way for Wayne to expand his already considerable financial empire, so there is actually some rallying around local boy Lex Luthor initially. Maybe even from Superman.

 

[Herolee10]

I watched a JL ep randomly last week and damn Bats really had it in for Supes. He even had lines like 'The next time I take orders from Superman, punch me in the face'. Like what the hell. There was more too. Ultimately Superman was proven right by the end of the ep (it was one where Darkseid did some deal with Brainiac) regarding whatever but yeah, not sure I want to see that dynamic played out on the big screen. I think it's what they'll do though. I feel the mentality could be that if Batman isn't played as a foil to Supes, and propped up to be his superior in alot of ways, he is kind of useless compared to Supes.

It's no hidden secret that Bruce Timm absolutely loved writing for Batman, more so than Superman. Heck it was even noted by Timm that they had trouble writing for superman due to his powers and I think because they didn't know how to write for him in general.

The ONLY time that Superman was ever portrayed being important to the DCAU was in the two part episode called, Hereafter, which deals with people thinking that Superman was dead.

But aside from that, Batman was always portrayed as the better hero out of the entire JL, the one person that could never truly go corrupt, the one that would save the day when Superman couldn't due to his sheer will and intelligence, etc.

We may not have any words from Snyder and Goyer to indicate on how Batman will be used, but judging by how many times Batman has been portrayed as the superior being over Superman, is it really that off to say that there's a good chance that it'll happen again in this team up film? I don't think so at all, hence why I feel my concern for the overall superman franchise is well justified.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Perhaps; honestly, I still don't know what to make of this situation.

It's definitely ironic to note that back when people were waiting for an SR sequel to be announced, I was eagerly waiting for it to see on where they could go to improve the story, but as we all know, that didn't happen.

Now, with a new film confirmed after MOS, though not a sequel by any means, even though we're getting one, I can't say that I'm looking forward to this at all.

I may have been fine with the idea of a Justice League film because they would have to spend time on other heroes and not have batman and Superman going at each other.

Plus, I'm one of those that believe that if there's a great chance for disappointment, which I believe there is for here, best not to get one's hope up in order to avoid disappointment.

Hey, I think we all know cinematic disappointment in one way or the other. But I think there is a big difference between calibrating ones expectations and poisoning the well of your own possible enjoyment. And I state again, it has been 2 days. Let's LIFE OF BRIAN this up a little, shall we? t:

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I watched a JL ep randomly last week and damn Bats really had it in for Supes. I hadn't even really noticed it before. He even had lines like 'The next time I take orders from Superman, punch me in the face'. Like what the hell. There was more too. Ultimately Superman was proven right by the end of the ep (it was one where Darkseid did some deal with Brainiac) regarding whatever but yeah, not sure I want to see that dynamic played out on the big screen. I think it's what they'll do though. I feel the mentality could be that if Batman isn't played as a foil to Supes, and propped up to be his superior in alot of ways, he is kind of useless compared to Supes.

That ep was the turning point for me in actually liking the JL show. Supes was a focal point of the story, they showed him whooping ass on the dread lord of Apokalips, and it ends with the sweet line of "You know something Bruce? ...You're not always right." I think that's one of MacDuffie's ep, right? Either way, that's when the tide started to turn a little. The JLU seasons were way Superman centric, and of course who can forget the epic "world of cardboard" speech. MOS was like that moment brought to life. So damned sweet.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It's no hidden secret that Bruce Timm absolutely loved writing for Batman, more so than Superman. Heck it was even noted by Timm that they had trouble writing for superman due to his powers and I think because they didn't know how to write for him in general.

The ONLY time that Superman was ever portrayed being important to the DCAU was in the two part episode called, Hereafter, which deals with people thinking that Superman was dead.

But aside from that, Batman was always portrayed as the better hero out of the entire JL, the one person that could never truly go corrupt, the one that would save the day when Superman couldn't due to his sheer will and intelligence, etc.

We may not have any words from Snyder and Goyer to indicate on how Batman will be used, but judging by how many times Batman has been portrayed as the superior being over Superman, is it really that off to say that there's a good chance that it'll happen again in this team up film? I don't think so at all, hence why I feel my concern for the overall superman franchise is well justified.

You see what I mean by negativity? I agree that the early goings of the JL show did not showcase Supes, or any of the other heroes at their best next to Batman. (They had one ep where GL instead of just using the ring to toss something into space stands there slack jawed until Bats comes by and has Gl shield him from radiation and disable a nuke inside the object. I was practically pulling my hair out at the contrivance. ) But the show does change into a much more Superman focused cartoon. Starting with the New Gods ep then the Justice Lords story and culminating in the epic Cadmus arc. Then the last season features Luthor and has a great Darkseid/Superman fight. (Singing): Always look on the bright side of life....(whistles)

 

[Herolee10]

That ep was the turning point for me in actually liking the JL show. Supes was a focal point of the story, they showed him whooping ass on the dread lord of Apokalips, and it ends with the sweet line of "You know something Bruce? ...You're not always right." I think that's one of MacDuffie's ep, right? Either way, that's when the tide started to turn a little. The JLU seasons were way Superman centric, and of course who can forget the epic "world of cardboard" speech. MOS was like that moment brought to life. So damned sweet.

You see what I mean by negativity? I agree that the early goings of the JL show did not showcase Supes, or any of the other heroes at their best next to Batman. (They had one ep where GL instead of just using the ring to toss something into space stands there slack jawed until Bats comes by and has Gl shield him from radiation and disable a nuke inside the object. I was practically pulling my hair out at the contrivance. ) But the show does change into a much more Superman focused cartoon. Starting with the New Gods ep then the Justice Lords story and culminating in the epic Cadmus arc. Then the last season features Luthor and has a great Darkseid/Superman fight. (Singing): Always look on the bright side of life....(whistles)

lol; well it'd be easier to think positive if there was something positive to think about.lol So far, I think the film has more negatives and no positives going on for it so it's like literally trying to dig underneath to surface for scraps of positive attitude.

 

[craigdbfan]

I totally get where you're coming from herolee. There's definitely reason to be concerned. I'm not telling people to not be excited seeing as this is a pretty big deal but please understand where people like herolee and I are coming from when we find a lot of WB's process behind this somewhat disconcerting.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I totally get where you're coming from herolee. There's definitely reason to be concerned. I'm not telling people to not be excited seeing as this is a pretty big deal but please understand where people like herolee and I are coming from when we find a lot of WB's process behind this somewhat disconcerting.

You are correct in so much as it's realistic to understand that Hollywood products can and will disappoint you often. But to state that THIS is definitely going to happen and that THIS is definitely going to happen.... As I stated before, it's been 2 days and we the public know nothing beyond it's going to feature Superman and Batman.

I share the sentiment that DC has seemed to focus soley on Batman for to long to the detriment of it's entire stable of heroes, Superman especially. But let's not let that cloud what should be an exciting time to be a fan of comic book superheros. That's the general gist of what I mean.

 

[Binker]

We know very little of the upcoming Batman/Superman film, that there is one question I have that no one at SDCC ever asked and therefore I want answered in the future: even with WF and JL following MOS, and WF being treated as MOS2; will we still get more solo Superman films? And if so, does that mean the same for new solo Batman films too? Because I want both, though a WF film series would be a nice compromise

 

[Smallville13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RWMc-EdDRY

Halfway through watching this. It's a new vid where Max Landis' pitches a Death of Superman story. It's pretty great. Kind of rich that he dissed MOS for the Metropolis destruction and 9/11 imagery, and in this vid he envisions it 10X worse. It's actually kind of made me think that y'know maybe that destruction and forced hand to kill could actually add to where the sequel could go with civilization hating him. Then I remember that the next sequel is a Batman movie...

But definitely recommend that vid.

 

[Willi Berg]

I was reading around about the Superman 75th panel and this is what I found interesting:

David Goyer then noted that Superman and Batman would be coming to the screen together in the recently announced 2015 film. “We aren’t sure if the title will be Batman Vs Superman or Superman Vs Batman, but they will face off.” Jim Lee noted that Superman got a raw deal in The Dark Knight Returns comic series by Frank Miller so a rematch was in order.

Q: Favorite moment of the evolution of Superman over the years?

Morrison talks about how in the beginning he was a very rough working man then evolved into a patriot, a warrior, cosmic seeker and more as the years have progressed. He has dealt with the current issues of the times over the years and continues to evolve with our culture.

RECAPS:

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/07/20/sdcc-2013-warner-bros-and-dc-entertainment-supermans-75th-anniversary-celebration

http://au.ign.com/articles/2013/07/21/comic-con-superman-75th-anniversary-panel-recap


Also, I was just listening to Kevin Smith's podcast. At the beginning he talks about the Superman/Batman announcement, and sees only positives about it. He doesn't go into anything about what it means for Superman's solo story, guess because he is a huge Batman fan:

SModcast #132:

http://smodcast.com/episodes/132-2/

 

[Willi Berg]

We know very little of the upcoming Batman/Superman film, that there is one question I have that no one at SDCC ever asked and therefore I want answered in the future: even with WF and JL following MOS, and WF being treated as MOS2; will we still get more solo Superman films? And if so, does that mean the same for new solo Batman films too? Because I want both, though a WF film series would be a nice compromise

That's what I was wondering too. I was thinking we would get solo movies, but after the JL movie. They could pick and choose from the solo movies, or WF and JL movies. Wish someone would ask them soon though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RWMc-EdDRY

Halfway through watching this. It's a new vid where Max Landis' pitches a Death of Superman story. It's pretty great. Kind of rich that he dissed MOS for the Metropolis destruction and 9/11 imagery, and in this vid he envisions it 10X worse. It's actually kind of made me think that y'know maybe that destruction and forced hand to kill could actually add to where the sequel could go with civilization hating him. Then I remember that the next sequel is a Batman movie...

But definitely recommend that vid.

I'll check it out. Landis def. has very strong, particular ideas about Superman, whether you agree with him or not.

 

[Herolee10]

I was reading around about the Superman 75th panel and this is what I found interesting:





RECAPS:

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/07/20/sdcc-2013-warner-bros-and-dc-entertainment-supermans-75th-anniversary-celebration

http://au.ign.com/articles/2013/07/21/comic-con-superman-75th-anniversary-panel-recap


Also, I was just listening to Kevin Smith's podcast. At the beginning he talks about the Superman/Batman announcement, and sees only positives about it. He doesn't go into anything about what it means for Superman's solo story, guess because he is a huge Batman fan:

SModcast #132:

http://smodcast.com/episodes/132-2/

And that's the thing, for Batman and Superman to face off, the outcome is obvious, either Batman wins or it's a tie (and that's the best case scenario for Superman).

I just don't get why Snyder and Goyer feel the need to emasculate a character that they supposedly worked so hard in bringing back to the big screen in such a powerful way.

To be honest folks, don't be so shocked if Goyer and Snyder starts calling Batman the biggest badass of the DC universe and the granddaddy of heroes.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that even with the little info we have now, Superman is going to be emasculated from this film in ways that would make what SR did to Superman being a blessing.

 

[Superchan]

And that's the thing, for Batman and Superman to face off, the outcome is obvious, either Batman wins or it's a tie (and that's the best case scenario for Superman).

I just don't get why Snyder and Goyer feel the need to emasculate a character that they supposedly worked so hard in bringing back to the big screen in such a powerful way.

To be honest folks, don't be so shocked if Goyer and Snyder starts calling Batman the biggest badass of the DC universe and the granddaddy of heroes.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that even with the little info we have now, Superman is going to be emasculated from this film in ways that would make what SR did to Superman being a blessing.

Honestly we have no idea how the team are going to handle superman and batman in the coming movie, so I think you're jumping the gun quite a bit here with all this emasculation talk.
Like you I'm not ecstatic about superman sharing the screen with anyone (batman or otherwise) but it's unfair to make such wild predictions about what snyder is going to do, not until we hear something more concrete.

 

[Project862006]

And that's the thing, for Batman and Superman to face off, the outcome is obvious, either Batman wins or it's a tie (and that's the best case scenario for Superman).

I just don't get why Snyder and Goyer feel the need to emasculate a character that they supposedly worked so hard in bringing back to the big screen in such a powerful way.

To be honest folks, don't be so shocked if Goyer and Snyder starts calling Batman the biggest badass of the DC universe and the granddaddy of heroes.

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that even with the little info we have now, Superman is going to be emasculated from this film in ways that would make what SR did to Superman being a blessing.

oh wow cant wait for the crow you are gonna eat when you realize snyder and goyer actually love and care for superman

 

[Herolee10]

oh wow cant wait for the crow you are gonna eat when you realize snyder and goyer actually love and care for superman

IF I'm wrong, I'll gladly see that Crow with several repeated servings afterwards.lol

But that's IF I'm wrong

Right now, my biggest two concerns are for how Superman and even Lois will be affected by Batman's inclusion into this film and whether he'll hurt their characters based on how Snyder and Goyer writes them in their response and interactions with the dark knight.