All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

[J.Howlett]

Marvel had five movies building up to their team up movie. They laid the ground work for The Avengers in all five of those movies. DC only has one. That's what I mean when I say they took more time.

Also, I don't see how that War Machine example even applies, War Machine was a supporting character in Iron Man long before he got his (short lived) solo series.



My point is that it's not "inconsistent" to think they're not good enough.

You could've cut War Machine out of Iron Man 3 and nothing would've changed with the narrative. That's the cohesiveness of Marvel that everyone loves.

 

[The Question]

You could've cut War Machine out of Iron Man 3 and nothing would've changed with the narrative. That's the cohesiveness of Marvel that everyone loves.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying but okay.

 

[Marvin]

Marvel had five movies building up to their team up movie. They laid the ground work for The Avengers in all five of those movies. DC only has one. That's what I mean when I say they took more time.

Also, I don't see how that War Machine example even applies, War Machine was a supporting character in Iron Man long before he got his (short lived) solo series.



My point is that it's not "inconsistent" to think they're not good enough.

Luckily the inconsistently comment pertained to the other point, the one about outrage over rushing.
War Machine is a star when written as one and a secondary character when the story demands it so. Same goes for anyone. Go read a book that features the Joker then go read a book where joker's in the title. The point is all those marvel films had other characters and no one was the wiser. They should feel the same way about this, given how little information they have. That would be consistent.

5 "solo" films leading up to a film featuring how many heroes/leads again?
How many lead ups do you demand WB provide for this buddy cop film?

 

[J.Howlett]

Luckily the inconsistently comment pertained to the other point, the one about outrage over rushing.

5 "solo" films leading up to a film featuring how many unknown heroes/leads again?
How many lead ups do you demand WB provide for this (alist)buddy cop film?

WB isn't in the position to do lead ups anymore. It's called time.

With the saturation of the market, this genre may run dry in the very near future. They have to hit and they have to hit now. Man of Steel 2 with Batman does that.

I'm not saying the genre's going to completely die but all it takes is for a few of these films to bomb at the box office or it takes the over saturation of the cinema to do it.

We're looking at a scenario where Marvel, between three companies, could put out four films a year. I don't care what fans who adore this genre think, for the general audience, that's going to be eventually too much.

Hell, I'm a fan and even I think it's gotten to a ridiculous point.

 

[Marvin]

WB isn't in the position to do lead ups anymore. It's called time.

With the saturation of the market, this genre may run dry in the very near future. They have to hit and they have to hit now. Man of Steel 2 with Batman does that.

I'm not saying the genre's going to completely die but all it takes is for a few of these films to bomb at the box office or it takes the over saturation of the cinema to do it.

We're looking at a scenario where Marvel, between three companies, could put out four films a year. I don't care how fans who adore this genre think, for the general audience, that's going to be eventually too much.

Hell, I'm a fan and even I think it's gotten to a ridiculous point.

I agree.
However that doesn't debate the issue of quality.

 

[The Question]

Luckily the inconsistently comment pertained to the other point, the one about outrage over rushing.

5 "solo" films leading up to a film featuring how many unknown heroes/leads again?
How many lead ups do you demand WB provide for this (alist)buddy cop film?

It's not just a simple equation of "You need X number of movies before you can do a team up movie." Part of it is that Superman himself, who he is and what is place in the world is, hasn't been developed enough on his own yet. Captain America: The First Avenger, for example, covered his whole career in the war, and his postwar culture shock works perfectly for a team up movie. But Man of Steel barely scratched the surface with Superman and how the world reacts to him. That's one of the many reasons why what Marvel did and what DC is doing aren't exactly the same, Superman needs at least one more film on his own before the team up starts, based both on who he is and on how much Man of Steel got into.

If we'd only gotten Iron Man 1 before The Avengers, it would have been a problem too, we needed the second film because the demands of the character and how much the first film got into it made it necessary.

War Machine is a star when written as one and a secondary character when the story demands it so.

War Machine ain't a star the way Batman's a star. Almost nobody is. He's got nowhere near the story baggage of fanbase that the caped crusader has. Also, he's tied directly into Iron Man from the start, he started as a supporting character in Iron Man and then spun off. Batman doesn't have that same kind of tie to Superman.

 

[J.Howlett]

I agree.
However that doesn't debate the issue of quality.

No it doesn't and I personally think that's the heart of the matter between the two companies and why the divisiveness online.

 

[J.Howlett]

It's not just a simple equation of "You need X number of movies before you can do a team up movie." Part of it is that Superman himself, who he is and what is place in the world is, hasn't been developed enough on his own yet. Captain America: The First Avenger, for example, covered his whole career in the war, and his postwar culture shock works perfectly for a team up movie. But Man of Steel barely scratched the surface with Superman and how the world reacts to him. That's one of the many reasons why what Marvel did and what DC is doing aren't exactly the same, Superman needs at least one more film on his own before the team up starts, based both on who he is and on how much Man of Steel got into.

If we'd only gotten Iron Man 1 before The Avengers, it would have been a problem too, we needed the second film because the demands of the character and how much the first film got into it made it necessary.

You're basing this on the assumption that Batman will swallow Superman's screen time and importance in the next film.

What if that doesn't happen? What if this next film is completely a Superman film that further develops him and we don't get even an ounce of Batman's world in the film? What if it's the entire cast of Man of Steel that can return and the only new cast members are the villain and Batman?

See what I'm saying?

 

[The Question]

You're basing this on the assumption that Batman will swallow Superman's screen time and importance in the next film.

What if that doesn't happen? What if this next film is completely a Superman film that further develops him and we don't get even an ounce of Batman's world in the film? What if it's the entire cast of Man of Steel that can return and the only new cast members are the villain and Batman?

See what I'm saying?

I don't see that as especially likely.

And even if that is the case, you still have this huge character with a lot of layers to him and an enormous fan base you have to develop on top of Superman and Superman's supporting cast and the villain. And even if we don't see an ounce of Batman's world besides Batman you have to give Batman something to do in the story or he'll be a largely superfluous character, which would be a problem all on it's own. That's a lot of plates to spin while also trying to continue Superman's story.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

You're basing this on the assumption that Batman will swallow Superman's screen time and importance in the next film.

What if that doesn't happen? What if this next film is completely a Superman film that further develops him and we don't get even an ounce of Batman's world in the film? What if it's the entire cast of Man of Steel that can return and the only new cast members are the villain and Batman?

See what I'm saying?

What if Michael Bay wins an Oscar for best director after Transformers 4?

 

[The Question]

What if Michael Bay wins an Oscar for best director after Transformers 4?

Oh snap!

 

[J.Howlett]

I don't see that as especially likely.

And even if that is the case, you still have this huge character with a lot of layers to him and an enormous fan base you have to develop on top of Superman and Superman's supporting cast and the villain. And even if we don't see an ounce of Batman's world besides Batman you have to give Batman something to do in the story or he'll be a largely superfluous character, which would be a problem all on it's own. That's a lot of plates to spin while also trying to continue Superman's story.

Batman's place in this film is going to be easy. Like Lex, he'll be the skeptic.

We just found out that we're not alone in this world and we've also found out that an alien, who did fight for us, has been living amongst us for 33 years.

There's gotta be one character that represents the cynicism of the world or that world, I should say.

Why not the Batman? Just sayin'....

 

[J.Howlett]

What if Michael Bay wins an Oscar for best director after Transformers 4?

Your point?

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Oh snap!

And I say that despite having no problem with Michael Bay. But we all know the likelihood of that scenario happening.

Your point?

It's unlikely, yet not impossible.

 

[J.Howlett]

We're just gonna have to wait and see.

I can't be nothing but optimistic about these developments. Even with the flaws of Man of Steel, that film...six times watched, still kicks my ass.

And now we're adding the goddamn Batman as a supporting character in a straight sequel to Man of Steel?

Somebody pinch me, this can't be real....

 

[Nathan]

Somebody pinch me, this can't be real....

Pinching is for girls.

 

[The Question]

We're just gonna have to wait and see.

I can't be nothing but optimistic about these developments. If with the flaws of Man of Steel, that film...six times watched, still kicks my ass.

And now we're adding the goddamn Batman as a supporting character in a straight sequel to Man of Steel?

Somebody pinch me, this can't be real....

Y'see, when you explain it like that, the only thing I think is "this is going to be so easy to **** up and the writer and director haven't demonstrated that they're good enough to handle it."

 

[Marvin]

I don't see that as especially likely.

And even if that is the case, you still have this huge character with a lot of layers to him and an enormous fan base you have to develop on top of Superman and Superman's supporting cast and the villain. And even if we don't see an ounce of Batman's world besides Batman you have to give Batman something to do in the story or he'll be a largely superfluous character, which would be a problem all on it's own. That's a lot of plates to spin while also trying to continue Superman's story.

Kinda like hulk and the rest of them in Avengers I suppose.
(sarcasm)

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Kinda like hulk and the rest of them in Avengers I suppose.
(sarcasm)

Is this a Superman sequel or a Superman/Batman team up? When people complain about the lack of a sequel for Superman, people say it's a sequel. When people complain that Superman is going to be "outshined" in his own movie, people say it's a team up movie.

 

[Bruce Malone]

How many people still see this up-coming film as MoS 2? Especially if it has a totally divergent title.

 

[ConnorKon-El]

How many people still see this up-coming film as MoS 2? Especially if it has a totally divergent title.

I see it as MOS2 featuring Batman.

 

[Deserana]

Snyder may not be the best director. Goyer may not be the best writer but for godsake people they are not idiots.

They aren't gonna build Superman up to be a hero by the end of MoS for him to take an unbelievable u-turn and him to get his ass beat by Batman. They barely had a SUPERman in MoS, he was getting thrown around left, right and center. The most I can see is Batman approaching Superman with caution but then teaming up by the end much like The Avengers. I can't believe that Batman would be stupid enough to start a fight nor can I believe the Superman established in MoS would now stat a fight with Batman.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Batman near the end in an "Agent Coulsin role." I'd get onboard that

 

[ConnorKon-El]

I need Bat's dry wit.

 

[J.Howlett]

Y'see, when you explain it like that, the only thing I think is "this is going to be so easy to **** up and the writer and director haven't demonstrated that they're good enough to handle it."

Our opinions are based on our response to Man of Steel. I thought the film was a straight knock out...top five of the genre.

You didn't.

We will have to wait and see.