All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[TheComicbookKid]

I agree with this. It's best to let the destruction issue slide. Yes, buildings were destroyed. Yes, people died. He can't save everyone, especially since he is new at this and has a trained, hardened, warrior General on his ass all the time, who, I might add, was born to fight and do battle.

That's kind of what undermines the "inexperienced" as justification comments. A Superman who has never fought goes round-for-round with Kryptonians and is able to hold his own.

Superman had the control over his powers as his sole trump card. That makes sense.

If the point was that he is overwhelmed then he should have been as close to death as the rest of Metropolis.

 

[charl_huntress]

That's kind of what undermines the "inexperienced" as justification comments. A Superman who has never fought goes round-for-round with Kryptonians and is able to hold his own.

I was under the impression the codex thing gave him all those billions of Kryptonians inside him included one that was a warrior. So wouldn't that knowledge be inherent within. It's like he has the code for everyone inside like it was downloaded into his very being. Then he should be able to do anything...like go toe to toe with Zod. Yet, maybe I am reading this wrong.

 

[Binker]

Y'know, I really don't like the whole "he's inexperienced" as the reason why the battle is the way it is. I've always said collateral damage, causalities, especially since you have two super powered beings fighting in a city that has a major population. The fact that we know people did in fact die in both the black zero attack and the fight shows the reality they were presenting, and them being honest.

 

[blumatic]

Y'know, I really don't like the whole "he's inexperienced" as the reason why the battle is the way it is. I've always said collateral damage, causalities, especially since you have two super powered beings fighting in a city that has a major population. The fact that we know people did in fact die in both the black zero attack and the fight shows the reality they were presenting, and them being honest.

I agree with you to an extent. But him crashing Zod through a factory and a 7-11 in Smallville was a bit reckless .

You might argue him taking down the ship was reckless too, but if he didn't the ship would have stopped the Phantom Zone plan.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Y'know, I really don't like the whole "he's inexperienced" as the reason why the battle is the way it is. I've always said collateral damage, causalities, especially since you have two super powered beings fighting in a city that has a major population. The fact that we know people did in fact die in both the black zero attack and the fight shows the reality they were presenting, and them being honest.

The collateral damage isn't the problem. It's Superman's logic.

He goes from risking his life to save kids on a bus or an oil rig, but once he was up against a real threat, he suddenly forgets to risk his life to save others. He was just punching and putting people's lives in danger.

He can fail to save others but "risking your life to protect others" should always be on his mind. Not punching to the point of risking others.

Otherwise, why bother if it's just an inconvenience ?

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I was under the impression the codex thing gave him all those billions of Kryptonians inside him included one that was a warrior. So wouldn't that knowledge be inherent within. It's like he has the code for everyone inside like it was downloaded into his very being. Then he should be able to do anything...like go toe to toe with Zod. Yet, maybe I am reading this wrong.

I didn't but that doesn't really help even if true. Warrior doesn't mean reckless without thought.

Military people don't just fire blast 100 cities to capture one person. They do use some kind of strategy. So if he has 100 of Krypton's greatest military minds to pull from. Use it to save some people.

 

[charl_huntress]

Y'know, I really don't like the whole "he's inexperienced" as the reason why the battle is the way it is. I've always said collateral damage, causalities, especially since you have two super powered beings fighting in a city that has a major population. The fact that we know people did in fact die in both the black zero attack and the fight shows the reality they were presenting, and them being honest.

This is how I see it too. It's two super powered beings fighting in close space and stuff is getting destroyed.

I agree with you to an extent. But him crashing Zod through a factory and a 7-11 in Smallville was a bit reckless.

I thought it was shown that at that point he was being reckless because he was pissed Zod threatened Martha. He was heated and his response seemed natural because for a bit there he was out of control.

 

[charl_huntress]

I didn't but that doesn't really help even if true. Warrior doesn't mean reckless without thought.

Military people don't just fire blast 100 cities to capture one person. They do use some kind of strategy. So if he has 100 of Krypton's greatest military minds to pull from. Use it to save some people.

I didn't even understand that whole codex thing to be honest. So I'm not surprised I got it wrong...lol

Just so I'm clear. Are you saying while he was fighting Zod he should have been also saving people too? He did at one point save that dude who fell out of the helo while he was fighting Faora and her goon.

edit:

Also could someone answer my question about Hamilton. I'm kind of confused. Did he die?

 

[Binker]

I agree with you to an extent. But him crashing Zod through a factory and a 7-11 in Smallville was a bit reckless .

You might argue him taking down the ship was reckless too, but if he didn't the ship would have stopped the Phantom Zone plan.

I don't know: instead of thinking how they could've or should've done something, in the end I don't think it really matters.

 

[Dr.]

Also could someone answer my question about Hamilton. I'm kind of confused. Did he die?

Presumably (along with Hardy and Faora). At the very least, he got (permanently?) zapped into MOS's version of the "phantom zone."

 

[charl_huntress]

Presumably (along with Hardy and Faora). At the very least, he got (permanently?) zapped into MOS's version of the "phantom zone."

Dr. Thank you! I was just so confused because you see him then you don't see him again.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Just so I'm clear. Are you saying while he was fighting Zod he should have been also saving people too? He did at one point save that dude who fell out of the helo while he was fighting Faora and her goon.

In a perfect world yeah. I'm not sure Zod would have let him actively save people.

I just didn't like him not trying to move him out of the city. Like when he tackled Zod in Smallville. Why not keep the fight in the cornfield? Why slam through a gas station and into main street except cause it looks cool?

 

[charl_huntress]

In a perfect world yeah. I'm not sure Zod would have let him actively save people.

I just didn't like him not trying to move him out of the city. Like when he tackled Zod in Smallville. Why not keep the fight in the cornfield? Why slam through a gas station and into main street except cause it looks cool?

That's what I'm thinking. Zod was trying to kill him so there was no time for saving people because if he does kill Superman then everyone is going to die. Zod said this, so in fact fighting him was saving lives. At least that's how I saw it.

As for tackling Zod in Smallville. I took that to mean he was mad because Zod was threatening Martha. At least that's how I took it. He just slammed into him and kept going until they stopped because he was pissed off and screaming at him about threatening his mother. When they do stop. Supes looks around almost surprised to be in the city.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

As I'm sick of this argument I will only say one more thing.

It's petty and shouldn't even be an argument. People are reading to much into it. It's a superhero film. And on top of that...a SUPERMAN film. If I could go back and link every single comment I've read about fans wanting crazy butt action and fighting and destruction from a new Supes film I would be the happiest loser on the internet.
Crack open any random Superman comic of the past 30 years and you will find destruction caused by him fighting some villain. Some of them are consider bona-fide Supes classics. No, classics in COMICS period. Collateral damage is part of superhero comics, especially Superman. Nitpicking it is only going to cause you to dislike every superhero film ever. Where is the huge debate over Batman possibly killing the cops in the chase from BB? Of the driver of the garbage truck in TDK (Which looks like it could have only ended in death) or the cars he blew up in TDK (People were actually shown to be in some of those cars, unlike the buildings in MOS) or him pretty much killing Talia in Rises? Thats right, it barely made a blip. But Superman fights like he always has, in a city and all of a sudden he's a careless, reckless idiot.

 

[Herolee10]

So we are supposed to assume Hamilton is dead? It strikes me as odd that after he activated the phantom device we don't get more confirmation. Did Syder confirm he was dead? It just seems so strange to me.

The Plane that he was in blew up and crashed into Black Zero, so I thought that was confirmation enough that Hamilton is dead.

 

[Herolee10]

That's kind of what undermines the "inexperienced" as justification comments. A Superman who has never fought goes round-for-round with Kryptonians and is able to hold his own.

Superman had the control over his powers as his sole trump card. That makes sense.

If the point was that he is overwhelmed then he should have been as close to death as the rest of Metropolis.

Superman may have better control over his powers, but when it comes to his mentality, he is still inexperienced.

It's only because he has a better grasp and full access to his powers that he can hold his own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he'd think like the veteran Superman that we're used to in other interpretations and comics where he'd be able to figure out how to balance between saving the people and fighting off the villains in a precise way.

Plus, when it comes to his fight with Zod, he needed to take care of the immediate threat. Zod's not going to stand around and do nothing while Superman goes on to check people. Zod was on a rampage, ready to kill everyone on Earth, so Superman had to deal with him first and foremost.

And you really can't blame Superman if he's fighting within a populated area where people are just standing around watching him fight Zod in close proximity.

 

[charl_huntress]

As I'm sick of this argument I will only say one more thing.

It's petty and shouldn't even be an argument. People are reading to much into it. It's a superhero film. And on top of that...a SUPERMAN film. If I could go back and link every single comment I've read about fans wanting crazy butt action and fighting and destruction from a new Supes film I would be the happiest loser on the internet.
Crack open any random Superman comic of the past 30 years and you will find destruction caused by him fighting some villain. Some of them are consider bona-fide Supes classics. No, classics in COMICS period. Collateral damage is part of superhero comics, especially Superman. Nitpicking it is only going to cause you to dislike every superhero film ever. Where is the huge debate over Batman possibly killing the cops in the chase from BB? Of the driver of the garbage truck in TDK (Which looks like it could have only ended in death) or the cars he blew up in TDK (People were actually shown to be in some of those cars, unlike the buildings in MOS) or him pretty much killing Talia in Rises? Thats right, it barely made a blip. But Superman fights like he always has, in a city and all of a sudden he's a careless, reckless idiot.

LOL...you must new to the Hype. This is standard fair for a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday. Basically...this is how it always is....lol

 

[charl_huntress]

The Plane that he was in blew up and crashed into Black Zero, so I thought that was confirmation enough that Hamilton is dead.

The confusion for me is in the shot. You can see both Lois and Hamilton at one point. Then he activates the device and he's gone. When they pan back to Lois before she falls out. There is no one there. It seemed like he disappeared or something. So no the plane crashing was not confirmation for me because he disappeared before the plane crashed. I don't know if this was issue of cutting or that you just don't see him, but he wasn't where he was standing when that plane crashed.

 

[Herolee10]

The confusion for me is in the shot. You can see both Lois and Hamilton at one point. Then he activates the device and he's gone. When they pan back to Lois before she falls out. There is no one there. It seemed like he disappeared or something. So no the plane crashing was not confirmation for me because he disappeared before the plane crashed. I don't know if this was issue of cutting or that you just don't see him, but he wasn't where he was standing when that plane crashed.

I think he was just covered by that blue flame-like thing that was being emitted from Clark's ship, hence why he wasn't visible.

 

[charl_huntress]

Could be...but it seems too weird that literally in one shot he is there and then in the next he is gone. He could be covered in the flame though, but it was so weird because it was like he literally disappeared. And they went out of their way to show the shot of him pushing in the key and it lingered there for a moment, so that's why I was confused where he went.

 

[Herolee10]

Could be...but it seems too weird that literally in one shot he is there and then in the next he is gone. He could be covered in the flame though, but it was so weird because it was like he literally disappeared. And they went out of their way to show the shot of him pushing in the key and it lingered there for a moment, so that's why I was confused where he went.

If you think that's confusing, I found the moment where after Superman killed Zod to save a family a little bit confusing as well since one moment, they're still there, and the next thing, they're gone.lol

 

[charl_huntress]

LOL...I know. I was like where in the world did they go and why couldn't go there before.

You know watching that part is so hard for me. I loved pretty much everything about the movie, but that part is...hard to watch. I still keep thinking he could have found another way. Why didn't he fly him into the air? le sigh...it's done and it is what is, but the family disappearing was also confusing.

The thing with Hamilton was his disappearance had me even questioning if he was even on the plane. Then I was sure he was and went back and forth over that scene trying to see if I could see him, but in one shot he there with Lois and then the very next he is gone. It was so weird.

 

[Caekzor]

Zod was whooping Superman's ass. Superman could have tried to fly the battle away from Metropolis, but Zod most likely would have figured out what he was up to. Same for saving random people... he didn't have time to even try and if he did he would have put people even more in harm's way.

Zod was a major threat and Superman had to stop him. Superman was inexperienced and outmatched and did the best he could. He didn't want to kill Zod, but to stop anymore destruction and loss of life he had no other choice.

Hamilton was still on the plane when Lois fell out and you don't see him after that so it's easy to assume he died/got sucked into the Phantom Zone.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Superman may have better control over his powers, but when it comes to his mentality, he is still inexperienced.

The inexperienced argument doesn't completely wash cause if you buy into that theory then he also isn't experienced at saving people on that oil rig. He has no idea the extent of his invulnerability/strength cause he'd never attempted a save that big at that time but he still tried and risked his life to make sure they were safe.

It's only because he has a better grasp and full access to his powers that he can hold his own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he'd think like the veteran Superman that we're used to in other interpretations and comics where he'd be able to figure out how to balance between saving the people and fighting off the villains in a precise way.

Plus, when it comes to his fight with Zod, he needed to take care of the immediate threat. Zod's not going to stand around and do nothing while Superman goes on to check people. Zod was on a rampage, ready to kill everyone on Earth, so Superman had to deal with him first and foremost.

And you really can't blame Superman if he's fighting within a populated area where people are just standing around watching him fight Zod in close proximity.

Again. No one's asking for the experienced Superman who can fight and save.

ATTEMPT to move the fight elsewhere. Even if he fails to move it(which he probably would have), it would have shown that he understood he needed to keep the risk of death just to himself. That would line up with the characterization they presented in the rest of the movie.

It's the schizophrenic ideology the movie presents that leads to this argument. You can't find a consistent line of thought about Superman's beliefs.

 

[Herolee10]

Again. No one's asking for the experienced Superman who can fight and save.

ATTEMPT to move the fight elsewhere. Even if he fails to move it(which he probably would have), it would have shown that he understood he needed to keep the risk of death just to himself. That would line up with the characterization they presented in the rest of the movie.

It's the schizophrenic ideology the movie presents that leads to this argument. You can't find a consistent line of thought about Superman's beliefs.

The fight with Zod didn't really give much room for Superman to even have an opportunity in attempting to move the fight somewhere else.

I think the closest to that moment that we saw in the film was when Superman was punching Zod through the sky before Zod gained control and fled into the city. Heck, he even tried to keep him in space for awhile but the crashing satellite through that option out of the window.