All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[Caekzor]

The inexperienced argument doesn't completely wash cause if you buy into that theory then he also isn't experienced at saving people on that oil rig. He has no idea the extent of his invulnerability/strength cause he'd never attempted a save that big at that time but he still tried and risked his life to make sure they were safe.

He didn't have Kryptonian warriors beating him down at every turn.

 

[charl_huntress]

You can't find a consistent line of thought about Superman's beliefs.

This I agree with. I am not sure what he believes in at this point, and Jor-El's speech about bridging worlds. Then in add the codex and it's all confusing to me why Superman is even on earth, and I mean that. Did Jor-El send him here to be a god among men? Not sure really.

Yes, I agree it's a bit confusing. Though to be fair, he did just put the suit on like 2 weeks ago in the movie, so maybe HE isn't sure what he believes yet.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

He didn't have Kryptonian warriors beating him down at every turn.

Right.

The inexperience covers that. It doesn't matter if it was one guy in a battle suit.

Not trying is bad writing/characterization. At this point in his career, he hasn't experienced a lot of things Superman will face. His characterization is important.

If the writers present us with a guy willing to risk his life/identity for others for 3/4 of a movie. Once things get tough, you can't really abandon that characterization. He can fail, but he has to try.

 

[Herolee10]

He did save both Col Hardy and an unnamed soldier in the battle of Smallville, and even told its residents to take cover for their safety while he was getting ready to fight the Kryptonians.

Unless you're referring to the fight with Zod in Metropolis, where Superman needed to focus on Zod. By trying to take time to help others, Superman would risk more people being killed by Zod.

 

[InJustice]

The inexperienced argument doesn't completely wash cause if you buy into that theory then he also isn't experienced at saving people on that oil rig. He has no idea the extent of his invulnerability/strength cause he'd never attempted a save that big at that time but he still tried and risked his life to make sure they were safe.

It's one thing to save people by using just your powers alone. It's another thing completely when you're trying to save people while having 2 or so Kryptonian warriors beat you down.

Mind you, they also have an eugenics advantage; they were bred to be warriors vs. a Superman whose experience involves having been bottling his need to fight back against enemies (Ross, Bullies).

Leading me to my next point.

Again. No one's asking for the experienced Superman who can fight and save.

ATTEMPT to move the fight elsewhere. Even if he fails to move it(which he probably would have), it would have shown that he understood he needed to keep the risk of death just to himself. That would line up with the characterization they presented in the rest of the movie.

It's the schizophrenic ideology the movie presents that leads to this argument. You can't find a consistent line of thought about Superman's beliefs.

I believe there was an attempt to move the fight outside of Smallville and obviously he failed due to the Kryptonian's hunger for battle. Though inexperience also plays into this.

Though it's not like he didn't understand the risk. You're suggesting that moving the fight is the ONLY way to understand the risks. He did warn the people of Smallville to stay inside. Whether that's enough is debatable, but he did show that he was concerned about the risks to humans (which oddly enough, falls under the internal logic and characterization of the film).

 

[sf2]

if he can't save everyone and every kitten, he isn't superman.

that's the logic.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I believe there was an attempt to move the fight outside of Smallville and obviously he failed due to the Kryptonian's hunger for battle. Though inexperience also plays into this.

It does look like it.

Of course a few moments later he jumps in the air and slams that dude into a train.

Though it's not like he didn't understand the risk. You're suggesting that moving the fight is the ONLY way to understand the risks. He did warn the people of Smallville to stay inside. Whether that's enough is debatable, but he did show that he was concerned about the risks to humans (which oddly enough, falls under the internal logic and characterization of the film).

Not really. He attacks Zod for threatening his mom but in doing so leaves her with three dangerous Kryptonians(ala Dark Knight Joker scene). He punches Zod through the cornfield but doesn't stop, and flies through a gas station and into main street.

What logic is that? Doesn't matter how much you warn people if you are the one putting them at risk. He does tell the people to get inside so he does know people are around, but then slams Faora into that IHop.

Yeah, he can't account for the military firing into main street. But this is Smallville. He knows the town. It's not a compact metropolis. He does have large uninhabited areas to fight in.


It just feels like the director making an exciting action scene through damaged streets and crumbling buildings instead of corn getting knocked over. lol

 

[GremlinZilla89]

if he can't save everyone and every kitten, he isn't superman.

that's the logic.

This. And the fact that it's a damn comic book film. Stop over analyzing it.

Superman fought Zod and minions in the city in Superman 2. WITH PEOPLE PRESENT, unlike Man of Steel. Yet, the only time the fight is taken elsewhere is when they fly over the water. All the rest of the fight takes place in the city. Where is all the analytical BS for that?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It does look like it.

Of course a few moments later he jumps in the air and slams that dude into a train.



Not really. He attacks Zod for threatening his mom but in doing so leaves her with three dangerous Kryptonians(ala Dark Knight Joker scene). He punches Zod through the cornfield but doesn't stop, and flies through a gas station and into main street.

What logic is that? Doesn't matter how much you warn people if you are the one putting them at risk. He does tell the people to get inside so he does know people are around, but then slams Faora into that IHop.

Yeah, he can't account for the military firing into main street. But this is Smallville. He knows the town. It's not a compact metropolis. He does have large uninhabited areas to fight in.


It just feels like the director making an exciting action scene through damaged streets and crumbling buildings instead of corn getting knocked over. lol

The logic in the way the scene played out was in Kal-el/Clark/Superman having a natural and visceral reaction to Zod and his people daring to put a finger on the most powerful man in the world's mom. That's about the extent of it.

 

[charl_huntress]

Right.

The inexperience covers that. It doesn't matter if it was one guy in a battle suit.

Not trying is bad writing/characterization. At this point in his career, he hasn't experienced a lot of things Superman will face. His characterization is important.

If the writers present us with a guy willing to risk his life/identity for others for 3/4 of a movie. Once things get tough, you can't really abandon that characterization. He can fail, but he has to try.

But he did try, and at least in three instances he succeeded. In the Smallville fight, he saved the guy falling out of the helo and the pilot Faora was about to kill. He also saved Hardy from being filleted. He even asked the guy he saved that fell out of the plane if he was alright. So they did show he will take time to save people over the fight if the danger is imminent. So I'm not sure I see your point that they didn't build this characterization because they did.

Heck! After that they did a little more because in the Zod fight, he floated to Zod and then Zod said I'll kill everyone right after I kill you. So this fight is also showing characterization because Superman fights (and actually kills Zod...still can't get over that) to save everyone. So again, I'm not sure I see how they didn't build this characterization. It may not be the characterization you or I really wanted, but they did build something. Supes stayed true to his quest to protect humans and even KILLED (still ain't over that) to save them.

I'm also not sure I understand the argument he should have actively tried to contain fights. The reason I don't understand this is NO comic book movie hero ever contains fight. We are to assume if mass destruction is taking place and we see no people, then there are no people there, and the area is clear. At least that is always the perception. This is the case in the movies and in the comics the movies are based on, so I'm not sure I understand why this is such a problem that you think the writers somehow failed to address.

The logic in the way the scene played out was in Kal-el/Clark/Superman having a natural and visceral reaction to Zod and his people daring to put a finger on the most powerful man in the world's mom. That's about the extent of it.

And this...

It was to show the dude will get mad as hell if you put your hands on his momma. He will get mad! It's always shown when Supes gets mad that he will flip that switch and open up the can real quick. This is also true to the character. You really don't want to piss Superman off.

 

[InJustice]

It does look like it.

Of course a few moments later he jumps in the air and slams that dude into a train.

And that sequence, you can even argue was a way to move one threat from Smallville, though that doesn't work out all that well.

Not really. He attacks Zod for threatening his mom but in doing so leaves her with three dangerous Kryptonians(ala Dark Knight Joker scene). He punches Zod through the cornfield but doesn't stop, and flies through a gas station and into main street.

What logic is that? Doesn't matter how much you warn people if you are the one putting them at risk. He does tell the people to get inside so he does know people are around, but then slams Faora into that IHop.

Yeah, he can't account for the military firing into main street. But this is Smallville. He knows the town. It's not a compact metropolis. He does have large uninhabited areas to fight in.

It just feels like the director making an exciting action scene through damaged streets and crumbling buildings instead of corn getting knocked over. lol

Except he did not leave Martha with 3 Kryptonians. Right after Superman takes Zod out and breaks his helmet, we see that the Kryptonian ship traveled to Smallville and pick him up after he suffered sensory overload. I mean, he is the General after all (soldiers obeying his orders). You can even argue that what Superman did (albeit reckless) moved the fight to save Martha.

The logic I was talking about in my previous post was to show how Clark was trying to be the bridge between humanity and Krypton. You clearly see that Kryptonians are sociopathic and they fear integration with humans, while humanity is afraid of knowing that life exists outside of Earth. Clark is the one who is neither afraid of humanity (has come to accept them), nor Kryptonians (whom he disagrees with their motivations).

How is he the one putting them at risk? He slammed Faora right after he saved a Fighter Jet from going down. If Superman doesn't do that, someone dies and everyone else craps on him for not saving a life. Also, we see that no one was harmed from the IHop sequence (they either escaped, or took cover. Not to mention, the restaurant doesn't appear to be busy).

You say he has large uninhabited space to fight as if the villain is simply going to comply and take the fight elsewhere (I just showed you how him moving the fight wasn't really a viable idea with 2 military-bred Kryptonians).

 

[charl_huntress]

I mean, he is the General after all (soldiers obeying his orders). You can even argue that what Superman did (albeit reckless) moved the fight to save Martha.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that and I did wonder about Clark leaving mom with there 3 Kryptonians. Yet, all of the troops would follow the general. You don't just let someone take your general. You have to get him back, so this actually does make sense. Supes lead the Kryptonians away from Martha, but taking Zod on a trail of whoop-ass.

 

[Smashlilman]

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that and I did wonder about Clark leaving mom with there 3 Kryptonians. Yet, all of the troops would follow the general. You don't just let someone take your general. You have to get him back, so this actually does make sense. Supes lead the Kryptonians away from Martha, but taking Zod on a trail of whoop-ass.

Superman: The movie's Kryptonians would have taken his mother as leverage becasue they are dirty fighters. MOS Kryptonians have some since of honor. They are like Sayians. They love the fight for the sake of the fight because they were bred to fight.

I'm sure as soon as Superman took Zod for a ride. They started Super Jumping right after them.

 

[charl_huntress]

Superman: The movie's Kryptonians would have taken his mother as leverage becasue they are dirty fighters. MOS Kryptonians have some since of honor. They are like Sayians. They love the fight for the sake of the fight because they were bred to fight.

I'm sure as soon as Superman took Zod for a ride. They started Super Jumping right after them.

That's the assumption. Though it's weird because I picked up the novelization and Faora says something about them having their empathy removed or desensitized. So you'd think they would take he, but considering how Supes took off with Zod then probably not...lol

 

[Kryptonian Titan]

I don't know if someone did it, but I'll post it here.

November 19, 2013: Charles Roven Talks "Man of Steel" and Superman/Batman Movie

Superman/Batman Variety has published a special feature on Producer Charles Roven, and amongst the list of projects he's worked on and has coming up, there's discussion about "Man of Steel" and the upcoming Superman/Batman movie.
In regards to the success of "Man of Steel" Roven said, "We felt that we accomplished our goals with 'Man of Steel'."

"Our intention was to bring Superman into the 21st century with a contemporary character and a different kind of superhero than what's out there right now."
Also key in "Man of Steel" was to set the stage for the next film; Roven and Warners execs began talks after the movie had grossed $200 million worldwide in its first weekend.

As for Ben Affleck being cast to play Batman opposite Henry Cavill's Superman in the follow-up film to "Man of Steel", Roven said, "We wanted a guy who had a certain age and a certain gravitas to what he had done in terms of his recent work."
"If you take a look at 'The Town' and 'Argo,' he plays a couple of serious guys in those movies. He's a big man. He's also a mature man. As you see him and Henry together, one definitely has much more experience just by looking at him. That's what we wanted, particularly juxtaposed against our Superman."

Source: Variety.com.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/news.php?readmore=14236

 

[sf2]

nothing much.

 

[Binker]

Random question: how would you consider Man of Steel from what is driving the movie? In other words, would you consider it a plot driven movie, character-driven, action-driven, or something else?

 

[<(o_o)>]

Was it out of character for Superman to be drinking alcohol without being evil? How would it really affect him? In Captain America, it was addressed that he didn't drink alcohol because he couldn't get drunk because of his fast metabolism, so would the same probably also apply to Superman?

The biggest nitpick & weakest part of the movie for me was the stupid military, they just keep using their weapons against the Kryptonians never seeming to realize that their weapons weren't doing anything to or against them but it was never addressed one bit by either side. The Kryptonians could have used this to build even more fear in humanity but the opportunity was lost. The military didn't use a second strategy or different approach to even combating the Kryptonians before the whole notion of even using the spaceship.

 

[GeoMFilms]

I posted this some where else but I would like to put it here too.

^^^ And then what does he say? "I was raised in Kansas"
Now you just narrowed the governments search. Good job Superman

This is from the United States Census as of the start of 2013
In the united states there are over 310 million people.
In Kansas there are over 2.8million. (2,885,905)

He cut the search possibility down 99%.

50% (50.3%) are female.

1,442,952

25% (25.1%) are under 18yrs old. (360,738)
14% (13.7%) are over 65yrs old (202,013)

That's roughly 880,200 people.

I'm just saying. I know this is a movie and all, but at least in the original movie no one was trying to figure out who Superman was because they wouldn't even think this god like person would have a secret identity. Now not only do they know he has one (mostly because Zod told everyone that they have an alien who has been living amongst them for years) but Superman even narrows down who he might be by naming off Kansas.

Heck they could of thought he was from Canada too, but now they don't even have to look there at all.

Just a nit pick that I would of rather that line not have been in the movie.

 

[Dr.]

I posted this some where else but I would like to put it here too.

^^^ And then what does he say? "I was raised in Kansas"
Now you just narrowed the governments search. Good job Superman

Since Zod & co. were focusing their attentions on Kansas, the military probably already figured that this was where the alien had been hiding all along. So I don’t think Kal was giving much away when he mentioned growing up there.

 

[Zorex]

Whether or not they intend to explore the repercussions of this in future films, way too much happened in "Man Of Steel" that would make it anything but difficult for the government to find out the truth about Clark Kent. One of Zod's drop ships landed at the Kent Farm. The film shows the military tracking that ship. The fight in Smallville was, well, in Smallville. Superman himself says "I was raised in Kansas." It's all so obvious that it seems, to me, like set up for somebody to figure out Superman's civilian identity (which would be easy) and exploit it.

 

[HighFivingMF]

I hope it's Coleman Reese again.

 

[GeoMFilms]

I'm trying to remember... how did the military get clarks ship? I'm assuming clark took it to them right? As far as that ship that showed up in front of the kent home you said they tracked that ship? I don't remember that, but if that's so then dang...whats the point of having a secret identity? haha.

 

[Isearch4dope]

The biggest nitpick & weakest part of the movie for me was the stupid military, they just keep using their weapons against the Kryptonians never seeming to realize that their weapons weren't doing anything to or against them but it was never addressed one bit by either side. The Kryptonians could have used this to build even more fear in humanity but the opportunity was lost. The military didn't use a second strategy or different approach to even combating the Kryptonians before the whole notion of even using the spaceship.

Exactly. The moment the kryptonians were able to withstand heavy artillery bullets from jets (without a single scratch) and throw trains they should have known that they were hopelessly outclassed and could only hope to even injure them with bombs. Yet they continued firing with their little automatic riffles with no change of strategy or thought. Just stupid. Don't get me started on Superman's idiotic approach to the spaceship and world engine scenario.

 

[Zorex]

I'm trying to remember... how did the military get clarks ship? I'm assuming clark took it to them right? As far as that ship that showed up in front of the kent home you said they tracked that ship? I don't remember that, but if that's so then dang...whats the point of having a secret identity? haha.

Around the 1hr20min mark, and it's no fleeting thing. It's an entire scene of Swanwick and NorthComm tracking the "two bogeys launching from the alien ship," "entering Kansas airspace, they are not responding to our hails." Those ships made no secret of where they were heading.