All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[The Guard]

I blame a generation of comic book heroes blaming themselves for things they have no control over (thanks Chris Nolan!) for a generation not understanding how to assign blame in a similar facet.

In no way, shape or form is Superman actually responsible for Zod's horrible actions.

 

[tomoe]

No, HE'S NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT!! Not in any legal, ethical, or moral way. It was a coincidence. And Zod even said that he was visiting ALL of the old Kryptonian colonies looking for survivors, so he would have found Earth eventually anyway. He prevented global genocide, that's heroic, and saying otherwise is ridiculous.

How is it a coincidence?! Zod said himself that Kal led him here. A coincidence would be if Zod just happened to find earth the same time Kal activated the ship. I wish it had been a coincidence, and indeed Goyer could have made it coincidence by just omitting the part where Zod blatantly says that Kal led him to earth. But nope, it seems Goyer went out of his way to put some blame on Kal. I agree Kal is not responsible for it in any legal, ethical or moral way but his actions are what caused Zod to make a beeline for earth. I don't even see how that is deniable when it is blatantly stated in the movie.

And I agree Zod may have found earth eventually, so why not just have had him find it eventually without connecting it to Kal at all?

Say you received this key to a door that leads to treasure. You open the door but doing that leads to a series of bombs going off, killing a bunch of people. Darn you didn't know it would do that so you're not responsible or guilty at all? You rush to stop the rest of the bombs from going off and finally succeed so yay you're a hero?

I mean certainly Kal stopping Zod was more heroic than doing nothing, but that heroism is just undercut somewhat by the fact that Zod was on earth in the first place because of him.

 

[tomoe]

I blame a generation of comic book heroes blaming themselves for things they have no control over (thanks Chris Nolan!) for a generation not understanding how to assign blame in a similar facet.

In no way, shape or form is Superman actually responsible for Zod's horrible actions.

He is not responsible for Zod's horrible actions but because of him, Zod is on earth doing these horrible actions. And I keep repeating myself that YES I know Kal had no idea what would happen and it's not fair to blame him HOWEVER he STILL led Zod to earth. I really just wish they had not written it this way.

 

[Tempest]

How is it a coincidence?! Zod said himself that Kal led him here. A coincidence would be if Zod just happened to find earth the same time Kal activated the ship. I wish it had been a coincidence, and indeed Goyer could have made it coincidence by just omitting the part where Zod blatantly says that Kal led him to earth. But nope, it seems Goyer went out of his way to put some blame on Kal. I agree Kal is not responsible for it in any legal, ethical or moral way but his actions are what caused Zod to make a beeline for earth. I don't even see how that is deniable when it is blatantly stated in the movie.

So? This is a trope used quite often in literature. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero, is an old, old trope. And while it's true that Clark's actions drew Zod to Earth, his actions weren't careless -- and Jor-El's computer program is somewhat responsible, because he could have shut down the emergency beacon himself. Who knows what other aliens could have been drawn to Earth by that beacon?

And I agree Zod may have found earth eventually, so why not just have had him find it eventually without connecting it to Kal at all?

I don't know why this bothers you. Superman has done other stupid things in comics. And he's also shouldered the blame for situations that occurred that were mostly out of his control. This is just another aspect of making Clark a character who resonates with people. Who hasn't done something that ended up with a negative result that you didn't anticipate?

Say you received this key to a door that leads to treasure. You open the door but doing that leads to a series of bombs going off, killing a bunch of people. Darn you didn't know it would do that so you're not responsible or guilty at all? You rush to stop the rest of the bombs from going off and finally succeed so yay you're a hero?

Yes. Pretty much. I could understand why a person would feel guilty (survivor's guilt, mostly) about such a scenario, but it isn't a logical response to blame them. How could they know that opening the door would end up killing people? If they were not forewarned of the potential consequences, why should they bear the blame at all?

I mean certainly Kal stopping Zod was more heroic than doing nothing, but that heroism is just undercut somewhat by the fact that Zod was on earth in the first place because of him.

Yeah, but Kal wouldn't have been on earth if it weren't for Jor-El, and Jor-El wouldn't have had to send his son into space if it weren't for the Kryptonian government's laziness, and if Lara had never bothered to carry to Kal to full term, this wouldn't have happened....

It's silly to blame Clark. He was a catalyst for bringing the Kyrpontians to Earth perhaps, but he's not responsible for Zod's actions.

 

[The Guard]

The beacon led Zod to Earth. Not Superman.

Unless Superman knowingly activated the beacon (which he did not, he was unaware of it until Zod talked about being drawn to Earth due to one), it is not his fault Zod is on Earth doing horrible things.

Goyer wasn't assigning blame to Superman when he wrote that bit in. Goyer was creating another reason for the Fortress to be in the story. He was tying existing story threads together for a more connected narrative, rather than having Zod "stumble" onto Earth.

 

[tomoe]

It's silly to blame Clark. He was a catalyst for bringing the Kyrpontians to Earth perhaps, but he's not responsible for Zod's actions.

And that's the thing. Yes he really can't be blamed in any fair or moral or legal or whatever way, but I don't think he should have been that catalyst that led Zod to earth in the first place. And I don't like it when this happens in other movies about heroes either. But I'm not as invested in other superheroes as I am in Superman. So I don't rant and rave and dwell on it like I do for Superman movies.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Speaking of which, poor Zack doesn't get the proper directorial credit among the GA.

http://www.gotham-news.com/news/201...oers-think-of-the-supermanbatman-announcement

Who directed Man of Steel?

Chris Nolan 46% (461 votes) (Majority)

 

[Loki882]

This argument is like blaming the victim of a crime for the crime, saying that they were somehow responsible for it, NO THEY WEREN'T.

 

[roach]

This argument is like blaming the victim of a crime for the crime, saying that they were somehow responsible for it, NO THEY WEREN'T.

depends on the crime

 

[tomoe]

This argument is like blaming the victim of a crime for the crime, saying that they were somehow responsible for it, NO THEY WEREN'T.

Good lord, no it isn't! Superman wasn't the victim. Or at least he wasn't the victim who lost the most from his own actions. Those thousands of people who lost their lives as a result of him leading Zod to earth were the victims. And I have said over and over again, I KNOW HE CANNOT FAIRLY BE BLAMED FOR IT, DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, ETC. HOWEVER, he cannot be completely free of blame either. What if your family was killed in that world engine attack? You wouldn't resent him in the slightest even knowing his actions brought Zod to earth resulting in their deaths? You would hail him as a hero? Even if you would, not everyone would, and many people would definitely blame him.

 

[Mysteryman]

Even if Superman is responsible (inadverdently.) for leading the other Kryptonians to Earth,
They are responsible for everything that they did when they got here .

 

[tomoe]

Even if Superman is responsible (inadverdently.) for leading the other Kryptonians to Earth,
They are responsible for everything that they did when they got here .

And I completely agree with that. Zod and company are directly responsible for their own actions. But since Superman did inadvertently bring them to earth, he is connected to what happened as a result of their actions even though their actions aren't his fault. He set things in motion, even though he didn't mean to.

 

[Iron Patriot]

I would say that Clark is responsible for anybody who died in Smallville because he brought Zod and the other Kryptonians there. Was it that hard to tackle Zod to one of the many empty fields in Kansas, Clark?

 

[STARMAN]

This is silly. You might as well blame every hero in every comic book movie then. Including the Chris Reeve Superman.

 

[Tempest]

I would say that Clark is responsible for anybody who died in Smallville because he brought Zod and the other Kryptonians there. Was it that hard to tackle Zod to one of the many empty fields in Kansas, Clark?

It's too bad you aren't a super hero, in law enforcement, or the POTUS. I'm sure you could do it a billion times better than any of them.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but most comic book battles don't happen in a cornfield, or an abandoned lot.

The reason for this is because it's more interesting to wantonly destroy buildings. Visually, and from a story-telling basis, putting people in danger makes the story more compelling and gripping.

Even in the cartoon series, the cities were damaged all the time. This is how it's been for eons. I don't know why MOS is catching so much flak for it. It's not like it's the first film ever to destroy a small town or two city blocks all for the joy of having explosions and buildings falling over.

 

[sf2]

Reading all these, I think there should be a game or song called... Blame Superman!!! For whatsoever things happen in our life.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

It's too bad you aren't a super hero, in law enforcement, or the POTUS. I'm sure you could do it a billion times better than any of them.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but most comic book battles don't happen in a cornfield, or an abandoned lot.

The reason for this is because it's more interesting to wantonly destroy buildings. Visually, and from a story-telling basis, putting people in danger makes the story more compelling and gripping.

Even in the cartoon series, the cities were damaged all the time. This is how it's been for eons. I don't know why MOS is catching so much flak for it. It's not like it's the first film ever to destroy a small town or two city blocks all for the joy of having explosions and buildings falling over.

Well said. Even though I would be fine with the PZ ending, all Zack did with the final fight is try to bring the JLU brawls into live action. He gets way too much hate.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

It's too bad you aren't a super hero, in law enforcement, or the POTUS. I'm sure you could do it a billion times better than any of them.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but most comic book battles don't happen in a cornfield, or an abandoned lot.

The reason for this is because it's more interesting to wantonly destroy buildings. Visually, and from a story-telling basis, putting people in danger makes the story more compelling and gripping.

Even in the cartoon series, the cities were damaged all the time. This is how it's been for eons.I don't know why MOS is catching so much flak for it. It's not like it's the first film ever to destroy a small town or two city blocks all for the joy of having explosions and buildings falling over.

He gets so much flak for it because the destruction came across as so realistic. People just couldn't handle that I suppose in a comic book movie and a Superman movie of all heroes. Superman is supposed to be so kid friendly and this movie wasn't. One can argue there is destruction in The Avengers as well, but to me, it never felt as "heavy" and "real" as it did in MOS.

 

[X Knight]

He gets so much flak for it because the destruction came across as so realistic. People just couldn't handle that I suppose in a comic book movie and a Superman movie of all heroes. Superman is supposed to be so kid friendly and this movie wasn't. One can argue there is destruction in The Avengers as well, but to me, it never felt as "heavy" and "real" as it did in MOS.

and that's what I loved about MOS ( and the ending ).

they didn't try to sugarcoat it or anything.

 

[Skrilla31]

And I completely agree with that. Zod and company are directly responsible for their own actions. But since Superman did inadvertently bring them to earth, he is connected to what happened as a result of their actions even though their actions aren't his fault. He set things in motion, even though he didn't mean to.

Which begs the question, if I put out a fire that I helped start... would you still call me a hero? Because that's exactly what Superman does in this movie. The world was better off before Superman.

And I see a lot of people suggesting that perhaps Superman could have taken the fight to an abandoned cornfield or something. I mean sure that's one way... but couldn't he have just taken the fight like several thousand feet above the Metropolis skyline?

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Which begs the question, if I put out a fire that I helped start... would you still call me a hero? Because that's exactly what Superman does in this movie. The world was better off before Superman.

And I see a lot of people suggesting that perhaps Superman could have taken the fight to an abandoned cornfield or something. I mean sure that's one way... but couldn't he have just taken the fight like several thousand feet above the Metropolis skyline?

No, because you purposely started that fire knowing the consequence it would have. Kal had no idea the consequences involved when he inserted the command key. Not even remotely close.

Right before Superman and Zod began to fight, Zod said he would kill these humans that Superman cares for so much to make him suffer. So at that moment Superman immediately takes the fight to him. Had Superman floated above Metropolis waiting for Zod, who knows how many humans Zod would have killed while Superman floated there waiting. Zod's main objective at this point was to kill humans.

Now I guess one can argue, then punch Zod or aim the punches to keep Zod above the skyline. That sounds much easier said than done. A rookie fighter being able to contain a fight with a trained superpowered general to a certain area who is hellbent on killing people?

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Speaking of which, poor Zack doesn't get the proper directorial credit among the GA.

Not totally unexpected.

 

[John-An]

something I found on the net...

 

[Tempest]

Which begs the question, if I put out a fire that I helped start... would you still call me a hero? Because that's exactly what Superman does in this movie. The world was better off before Superman.

And I see a lot of people suggesting that perhaps Superman could have taken the fight to an abandoned cornfield or something. I mean sure that's one way... but couldn't he have just taken the fight like several thousand feet above the Metropolis skyline?

Look, if you started the fire on purpose, you would be a criminal. If you were playing with gasoline and matches, then you'd be a dumbass. But if you were near a lantern, say, and you accidentally kicked it over, then I'm not going to judge you. Accidents happen.

What Clark did was an accident. And he didn't run off when the trouble arrived on Earth, he didn't leave it to others to handle the problem. He was right there in the middle of things, trying to figure out how to stop the invasion, and how to save his adopted world.

So yes, Clark is a hero. And if you accidentally set a fire, and risked everything you had to put it out, or to rescue people (or both!), then yes, you are a hero.

 

[bluearth]

The most pure heroes have been pushed to killing. Heres a good example from DBZ (spoiler if you havent seen the show)

Spoiler

The Frieza saga was meant to be the end of Dragon Ball, but because of it spopularity Toriyama brought Fireza back etc. Frieza was originally meant to die once and for all here