All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Ardyns]

I think a lot of the difference has to do with the lead character exuding a warmth and compassion that the audience can connect with, and the movie creating situations where those emotions can be showcased.

It's almost a given that the main character is going to do some heroic things in a movie like this. It's easy to tune that out if it's not handled in a compelling way.

That's where the comparisons between Gadot's performance and Reeve's performance come from, imho, as they were both able to express that warmth, regardless of an objective tally of their heroic feats.

Superman does show warmth and compassion when he's saving people. Everytime he's saved Lois in MOS and BvS, he's always comforted her after, kissed her, gave her a reassuring look. When he saves the soldier from falling to his death in the Smallville scene, he puts him down and he asks, "You okay?" even though they were peppering him with a machine gun the whole time. When he saves the little girl from the burning building in the montage scene in BvS, he has a warm smile on his face, as he's clearly pleased to be able to bring back the girl to her mother. There are a lot of little moments like these, I'm forgetting a few, that are subtle but do show his inherent goodness and that he's doing all this because he cares about people.
He's just not an overly expressive with his emotions.

 

[misslane38]

I think a lot of the difference has to do with the lead character exuding a warmth and compassion that the audience can connect with, and the movie creating situations where those emotions can be showcased.

It's almost a given that the main character is going to do some heroic things in a movie like this. It's easy to tune that out if it's not handled in a compelling way.

That's where the comparisons between Gadot's performance and Reeve's performance come from, imho, as they were both able to express that warmth, regardless of an objective tally of their heroic feats.

Responding here (MoS thread).

 

[Flemm]

He's just not an overly expressive with his emotions.

You're right about the examples, of course, but the point I was trying to make is that the way those emotions are communicated to the audience is a crucial aspect.

There is a subtle alchemy that is partly the actress, partly the script, partly the direction.

And I'm not saying that MoS was a bad movie. But it was just ok, imho, and the main character's portrayal is a key difference.

But these things are subjective, so we have to keep that in mind. I'm not trying to argue that they can be measured objectively, or anything like that.

 

[Micromind]

In the days of WWI, apart from photographic evidence, of which there was none (unless you count the photo of them standing around post-No Man's Land), the only way for that story to take hold would be if the soldiers present at the time kept it alive. Considering the bats*** stuff they saw, I think a lot of them probably wanted to keep that to themselves. And so, it becomes nothing more than myth.

That actual photo was not a common knowledge as Lex Luthor had kept it as some kind of secret that only he knew.

The soldiers in WW1 who saw Wonder Woman might have kept their experiences to themselves and even if some of them didn't, few would believe them as they were participating in a War which also used chemical weapons, their accounts could easily be dismissed as hallucinations caused by some chemical gas.

Which leads us to the real question: what happened to Diana after this? Obviously if she were still performing these types of heroics once Korea and Vietnam rolled around, there would eventually be actual visual evidence, as Vietnam was the first truly televised war. So did she hang up the shield and lay low until Doomsday showed up? Did she go back to Themyscira for a while after all? Hopefully a sequel will fill in those blanks.

Diana might have decided to help people covertly after Steve Trevor's death, and it's possible that after some other War starting again, this time without influence of Ares, she might have gotten disillusioned and returned to Themyscira. Only to return after World War 2 ended.

As to the secret identity question, we had a healthy debate about that in this thread a few days back. I personally think that in present day, post-BvS, she's no longer "hiding," and I don't think she'll keep up the secret identity thing. Diana Prince isn't really much of a disguise at all, and if the world saw her as the royalty she really is, I don't think it would be a huge lifestyle change for her, considering we already know she's very wealthy, well-respected, and regularly attends fancy galas and such. All they need now is for Themyscira to officially "come out" to the rest of the world, and she can officially serve as their ambassador as she has in the comics.

She might have decided to keep her secret identity "Diana Prince" to keep Amazons safe and hidden from man's world. She was seen as an antiques dealer in the photos taken by Lex in Paris (in BvS), so she was assuming the secret identity till she appeared as Wonder Woman in BvS, she might decide to reveal herself as an Amazon Princess from Themyscira living as Diana Prince in Justice League.

 

[Ardyns]

You're right about the examples, of course, but the point I was trying to make is that the way those emotions are communicated to the audience is a crucial aspect.

There is a subtle alchemy that is partly the actress, partly the script, partly the direction.

And I'm not saying that MoS was a bad movie. But it was just ok, imho, and the main character's portrayal is a key difference.

But these things are subjective, so we have to keep that in mind. I'm not trying to argue that they can be measured objectively, or anything like that.

I didn't think you were saying MOS is a bad movie. And yes you are right these things are completely subjective. I get that people want him to show more of such emotion, maybe in a more straightforward way but I don't get when someone says that he is devoid of such empathetic emotions completely. That is not true IMO.

 

[Dr.]

...about the VFX/CGI, the only time it really took me out was when she was lassoing the badguys in town and ping-ponging them around.

...that's really the only time it felt to fake or "video gamey" to me.

I thought the sfx in WW was just fine.

My theory (which is mine): I expect the more fantastical heroes (like Supes, WW, etc.) to perform unrealistic, physics-defying feats that don’t conform to common experience. This is what’s claimed in the respective biographies of these characters; and it's what’s been depicted (for decades) in the panels of comic books and in old-school/cell animation. Now, with modern cgi, we have the live-action equivalent.

As it happens, I’ve never witnessed - in real life - a super-powered woman dispatching soldiers with a magic lasso. So I tend to give the filmmakers the benefit of the doubt that it would look very much as they’ve depicted.

 

[Dr.]

...yes, Superman saves people and yes he did noble things and yes he did care for people. But the way Snyder portrayed him in the films just lacked that "something," that intangible whatever, that I felt from WW.

But… if Snyder had made MOS/BvS more like S:TM (and, therefore, more like WW), what would WW have done? Seems to me that by taking a different approach with Superman, a fortuitous niche was left open for Jenkins.

 

[Willi Berg]

The script is very tightly written and all the little flourishes are brought out by Patty Jenkins' excellent direction and the skills of all the actors involved, Gadot being chief among them. It's amazing how much many doubted her abilities, yet her performance becomes all the more stirring with each viewing. I would agree with any that would argue that we've not seen such a natural fit since Christopher Reeve. Gadot presents a Wonder Woman that is everything the world needs.

That's why it is doing so well and may have some terrific legs. There's something for everyone, but each aspect is so natural that nothing is forced and just about anyone can find magic whether it is at the beginning or as they dance in the snow or at the end.

I find the film pretty near perfect for what it is and what it seeks to do. I was hoping for a good film and got a great one IMHO.

Great review.

Gal's charm is great to see. When she first walks the streets of London, just the wide-eyed way she is taking it all in, with men ogling her, to her seeing a baby, to her determination to get to the war, you see her idealism and innocence, and that's a great set up to see how she changes and grows throughout the movie.

https://twitter.com/SizzlerKistler/status/873160140932882433

The comments

I know, right? But that Fearless Girl statue has always set people off.

 

[Willi Berg]

nvm

 

[Micromind]

How's the movie doing in Australia ?

 

[Willi Berg]

How's the movie doing in Australia ?

It's actually harder to find box office info in Australia (you guys in the States are more obsessed with all that ) but it was #1 last week.

The only thing I heard recently is that 3D is losing a bit of popularity here, with people choosing to see movies in 2D more and more, and that happened with Wonder Woman too. But I think this movie is awesome in 3D.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Absolutely incredible. Go Diana.

 

[KillerWolf]

[YT]w1ziZIC6uwA[/YT]

 

[Flemm]

Responding here (MoS thread).

Thanks for the response, I just wanted to note that I did read it.

I am not contesting the validity of anyone's personal opinion, of course, or the general idea that some fans found Superman's portrayal in MoS to be moving and emotional.

I was just musing on why one portrayal might be received more favorably than the other, broadly speaking.

 

[metaphysician]

Agreed. The VFX took me out of the final act a bit. It was the only part that really suffered because of it though. The no man's land scene is going to go up there with some of my favorite superhero action scenes.

Indeed. I mean, I actually think their willingness to be frugal with their SFX budget, and use it where it most matters, is a *good* thing. Much better to have less-than-peak ( but still decent ) CGI, than to have constant 200M+ budgets for first movies.

 

[metaphysician]

Do you think that people expect Wonder Woman to follow such approach towards feminism (Like, Supergirl S1 and Agent Carter), which is why many are avoiding to watch it in theaters ?

I'd say its a legitimate fear, though it doesn't seem to be keeping too many away. Though, really, I wouldn't really put Agent Carter and Supergirl side by side. At least with s1, Agent Carter was about sexism, yes, but in the context of the lead character's own story. This really isn't the same thing as Supergirl, where its more. . . morality play rather than story.

 

[metaphysician]

I don't disagree with any of that.

but with MOS and BvS, there was this lack of heart and warmth which WW had.

with DCEU Superman, there's just this sense of "detachment" and "aloofness" which doesn't suit the character, imo.

yes, Superman saves people and yes he did noble things and yes he did care for people. But the way Snyder portrayed him in the films just lacked that "something," that intangible whatever, that I felt from WW.

I'd say it comes down to, Superman may have saved people, but there wasn't the sense that he actually cared. At least in BvS, saving people was something he was just going through the motions of doing. It wasn't something he was passionate about, and there was very little appearance that he actually *liked* people, individually. It all had an overpowering feel of burden.

Whereas Diana very clearly cares about saving people, and the care comes before the action. She also very clearly likes *people*, and it shows in almost every interaction she has with others.

 

[metaphysician]

There's been a lot of speculation and discussion about the questions you raise.

I think many of them remain ambiguous at this point. A lot will depend on the choices made in JL and then a WW sequel.

There are differing opinions about how well WW matches up with what we saw in BvS, and in MoS prior to that.

Only counting the stuff from WW, and not hypothetical activities between then and the present? I agree, they are ambiguous, but I'd say the intent is that she's not widely publicly acknowledged. She didn't exactly do her stuff in front of national TV ( not existing yet, after all ), and quite a lot of the people who witnessed her more notable feats ended up dead. So, I can quite easily imagine her WWI activity very quickly falling into urban legend status. Sure, there are accounts of soldiers talking of the 'Wonder Woman of Veld', but these would be looked upon much like accounts of the Angels of Mons.

So, the general public doesn't know about her, or if they do, its just as a somewhat obscure fantastic tale from the trenches. Those who put a specific effort into investigating weird stuff? Probably know more; I imagine Amanda Waller has some top secret dossiers in a cabinet dating back decades.

 

[metaphysician]

In the days of WWI, apart from photographic evidence, of which there was none (unless you count the photo of them standing around post-No Man's Land), the only way for that story to take hold would be if the soldiers present at the time kept it alive. Considering the bats*** stuff they saw, I think a lot of them probably wanted to keep that to themselves. And so, it becomes nothing more than myth.

Which leads us to the real question: what happened to Diana after this? Obviously if she were still performing these types of heroics once Korea and Vietnam rolled around, there would eventually be actual visual evidence, as Vietnam was the first truly televised war. So did she hang up the shield and lay low until Doomsday showed up? Did she go back to Themyscira for a while after all? Hopefully a sequel will fill in those blanks.

As to the secret identity question, we had a healthy debate about that in this thread a few days back. I personally think that in present day, post-BvS, she's no longer "hiding," and I don't think she'll keep up the secret identity thing. Diana Prince isn't really much of a disguise at all, and if the world saw her as the royalty she really is, I don't think it would be a huge lifestyle change for her, considering we already know she's very wealthy, well-respected, and regularly attends fancy galas and such. All they need now is for Themyscira to officially "come out" to the rest of the world, and she can officially serve as their ambassador as she has in the comics.

Until canon demonstrates otherwise, I'm going to assume that Diana *was* active between WWI and the present, but that she largely kept her activities lower profile. Doubly so as media made surreptitiousness much harder. Less "smashing the enemy line in war", more occult secret agent keeping the world safe from magical threats. Which doesn't mean she never let loose with her full power, just that it was always either in obscure locations with few witnesses, or in places where all the relevant nearby parties would logically go "Nope, swamp gas, weather balloon, Venus".

 

[Flemm]

Only counting the stuff from WW, and not hypothetical activities between then and the present? I agree, they are ambiguous, but I'd say the intent is that she's not widely publicly acknowledged. She didn't exactly do her stuff in front of national TV ( not existing yet, after all ), and quite a lot of the people who witnessed her more notable feats ended up dead. So, I can quite easily imagine her WWI activity very quickly falling into urban legend status. Sure, there are accounts of soldiers talking of the 'Wonder Woman of Veld', but these would be looked upon much like accounts of the Angels of Mons.

So, the general public doesn't know about her, or if they do, its just as a somewhat obscure fantastic tale from the trenches. Those who put a specific effort into investigating weird stuff? Probably know more; I imagine Amanda Waller has some top secret dossiers in a cabinet dating back decades.

Interesting thoughts. I was trying to come up with a comparative example of a wartime legend earlier, but failed to do so.

I agree that is one possible interpretation. But there is a big gap between WW1 and the present day that is left to be filled, and I think that is where most of the ambiguity lies.

It seems implausible to me that Wonder Woman was simply in hiding during all that time, based on her solo movie.

I'd say its a legitimate fear, though it doesn't seem to be keeping too many away.

I think that the number of potential viewers who are not avoiding the movie for actual sexist reasons, but rather because they think that the feminist message in a show like Agent Carter or Supergirl is too heavy-handed, is so small as to be completely negligible.

That's not a demographic, it's a handful of genre fans at most.

 

[misslane38]

I'd say it comes down to, Superman may have saved people, but there wasn't the sense that he actually cared. At least in BvS, saving people was something he was just going through the motions of doing. It wasn't something he was passionate about, and there was very little appearance that he actually *liked* people, individually. It all had an overpowering feel of burden.

Whereas Diana very clearly cares about saving people, and the care comes before the action. She also very clearly likes *people*, and it shows in almost every interaction she has with others.

Responding here (MoS thread).

 

[aNarcHy2day]

Wrong thread.

 

[omermer]

Al Jazeera wrote an article about how Wonder Woman is actually the love story between Israel and the US, and how it should be banned because it shows an Israeli soldier saving the world....

 

[Vlyse]

Al Jazeera wrote an article about how Wonder Woman is actually the love story between Israel and the US, and how it should be banned because it shows an Israeli soldier saving the world....

Hmm,. I watched the wrong movie then.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Al Jazeera wrote an article about how Wonder Woman is actually the love story between Israel and the US, and how it should be banned because it shows an Israeli soldier saving the world....

This why we separate reality and fiction

I think Israel should let the Palestinians have their strip of land, but that doesn't change Wonder Woman or Gal's performance.