Arrow Arrow S3 Episode 11, "Midnight City"

[Boy Scout]

This is more against the people writing Laurel, than Laurel herself.

That's fair. The writers have always struggled with her character, but I think they've finally settled on a motivation, characterization, and story that works.

I like that they are showing her struggle, but they could do that while showing that she has a clue about what she's doing. Yes, real fights are different from sparring sessions, but they aren't even showing anymore that she attempts to put up a proper fight.

That's not true. She gets right back up after she gets hit and keeps on going until she wins.

They are so concerned with showing her struggling to follow in her sister's steps, that she comes across more of an amateur than she did in Season 1.

She should. She didn't do anything like this in season one. Laurel is both physically and mentally unprepared for such a life, and she realizes that. She was going to quit before Felicity convinced her to give it another go. It is her determination to live up to her sister's legacy that will encourage her to get it right - that, and experience.

 

[zenith16]

Marc said they won't go deeper into how he survive

forever-tan asked:
Is the show ever going to show exactly how Tatsu saved Oliver?? Idk it's hard for me to believe that he survived all that! Either way I'll still always be a huge fan of the show and thanks for all the dedication to put into it!

We’re not really planning on delving too much deeper into it.

Thanks for the info but always make sure you put up the link to where that came from Especially if it's twitter of the head of the writer of the show for the overly stubborn or skeptical to look it up.

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

Thanks for the info but always make sure you put up the link to where that came from Especially if it's twitter of the head of the writer of the show for the overly stubborn or skeptical to look it up.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/po...ow-ever-going-to-show-exactly-how-tatsu#notes

Now he saying

hi Marc! i know that some people are upset and think that Oliver surviving was unrealistic. you said he was just badly hurt and not dead but i think some people feel like the cold and stitches and penicillin tea probably wouldn't heal him of being run through the mid-abdomen with a scimitar and that's just one of his many wounds (i say heal him anyway that you can) but will it ever be further explained how Oliver survived with his injuries? does Tatsu have magic herbs like Yao Fei or something?

We may delve a bit deeper into it in the future.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/po...c-i-know-that-some-people-are-upset-and#notes

 

[Primal Slayer]

I thought the same thing, she should know how to block hits and get in some good punches. But i just contributed it to the fact that Laurel isn't thinking clearly while in costume which is making her forget what training she has had. She is so into the moment that it is actually working against her.

Well that and the writers not wanting to hear people complain about her having "skills" on her first outings of suiting up.

 

[Nathan]

That's fair. The writers have always struggled with her character, but I think they've finally settled on a motivation, characterization, and story that works.



That's not true. She gets right back up after she gets hit and keeps on going until she wins.



She should. She didn't do anything like this in season one. Laurel is both physically and mentally unprepared for such a life, and she realizes that. She was going to quit before Felicity convinced her to give it another go. It is her determination to live up to her sister's legacy that will encourage her to get it right - that, and experience.

I'm talking about the way she fights. She was in 2 life threatening situations in season 1 and 2, where it was either fight or flight. In season 1, 2 people broke into her home. The first guy went for her throat, and she immediately locked up his arm and used him to smash the door against the 2nd assailant. Then the first guy got an elbow to the face, and the 2nd guy got his ankle smashed.

In season 2 she got a gun waved into her face, and she then quickly disarmed the guy. And again in season 1, which wasn't life threatening, they showed her actually pulling off a nice combo, saving Ollie's and Tommy's butts.

Now after donning the mask, all she does is to come after guys wild and swinging. They show that's she struggling, but it also comes across like she was never in a confrontation before. It's like they forgot that she's supposed to be a cop daughter, who's been taught to take care of herself. In season 1 Laurel came with a shotgun after a hitman. I fear Laurel now, would almost accidentally shoot herself in the foot, just to show she's struggling.

Maybe she should be more like Roy was, before he got official training from Oliver.

Well that and the writers not wanting to hear people complain about her having "skills" on her first outings of suiting up.

Which would be ok, had they not established that she took self-defense classes, and actually showed she had skills, when in the face of danger. And then even introduced Ted Grant, to give her more combat experience.

Roy was shown to have skills in season 1, but he still ended up with a knife wound when he saved Thea. And then there was the time he didn't account for one of the thugs having a gun, when he saved a women in the Glades, and Thea had to come to the rescue.

 

[zenith16]

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/po...ow-ever-going-to-show-exactly-how-tatsu#notes

Now he saying

hi Marc! i know that some people are upset and think that Oliver surviving was unrealistic. you said he was just badly hurt and not dead but i think some people feel like the cold and stitches and penicillin tea probably wouldn't heal him of being run through the mid-abdomen with a scimitar and that's just one of his many wounds (i say heal him anyway that you can) but will it ever be further explained how Oliver survived with his injuries? does Tatsu have magic herbs like Yao Fei or something?

We may delve a bit deeper into it in the future.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/po...c-i-know-that-some-people-are-upset-and#notes

thanks for keeping up with all this info. It wont make alot of people happy on the wanting side of things but it is what it is.

That's selective reasoning for ya, kinda like how others here want the pit where lore wise it will go wrong & they won't like the out come, if DC & WB have any say in it... Ahhhhhh any way.

 

[zenith16]

I thought the same thing, she should know how to block hits and get in some good punches. But i just contributed it to the fact that Laurel isn't thinking clearly while in costume which is making her forget what training she has had. She is so into the moment that it is actually working against her.

Well that and the writers not wanting to hear people complain about her having "skills" on her first outings of suiting up.

befor I say this I think your Right over all but I bolded this area only cause it's very possible thing might be the issue. other wise l'd bold all of what you said.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Which would be ok, had they not established that she took self-defense classes, and actually showed she had skills, when in the face of danger. And then even introduced Ted Grant, to give her more combat experience.

Roy was shown to have skills in season 1, but he still ended up with a knife wound when he saved Thea. And then there was the time he didn't account for one of the thugs having a gun, when he saved a women in the Glades, and Thea had to come to the rescue.

Look at you thinking like a Laurel fan lol.

But I guarantee you if they had Laurel have a sense of what she is doing while suited up, half the fans would be out for blood and foaming at the mouth. Look how many people complained about her being badass for suiting up and thinking that she would be kicking butt just because of that. That is why they are having her stumble so much imo. They chose the lesser of two evils.

 

[Nathan]

I just think showing her with some proper combat expertise, and still ending up with shot or stab wounds, because she lacks experience, would be a lot more interesting to watch, than having her almost trip after each swing. What was even the point of introducing Ted Grant, if she now fights like she never had any fighting lessons in her life?

 

[Boy Scout]

I'm talking about the way she fights. She was in 2 life threatening situations in season 1 and 2, where it was either fight or flight. In season 1, 2 people broke into her home. The first guy went for her throat, and she immediately locked up his arm and used him to smash the door against the 2nd assailant. Then the first guy got an elbow to the face, and the 2nd guy got his ankle smashed.

In season 2 she got a gun waved into her face, and she then quickly disarmed the guy. And again in season 1, which wasn't life threatening, they showed her actually pulling off a nice combo, saving Ollie's and Tommy's butts.

That's actually a fair point.

Now after donning the mask, all she does is to come after guys wild and swinging. They show that's she struggling, but it also comes across like she was never in a confrontation before. It's like they forgot that she's supposed to be a cop daughter, who's been taught to take care of herself. In season 1 Laurel came with a shotgun after a hitman. I fear Laurel now, would almost accidentally shoot herself in the foot, just to show she's struggling.

I don't think she's been shown to be quite that incompetent, but I understand what you're saying. Again, I think Laurel is losing herself in the heat of the moment. She has almost always been the one responding to physical confrontations, but now she's initiating them. You could argue that she is actually in an instinctually clearer state of mind when she's forced to be reactive simply because she was never before inclined to go out looking for trouble. Instead of, "Oh my God, I'm being attacked! I need to defend myself or I'll be killed!" it's, "Okay, I'm going to throw the first punch. I hope I can rember my training. But what if I can't?" Does that make sense?

I have to admit, though, it is a bit inconsistent.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I did laugh though that they had Laurel be more physical with Brick then with the lackeys. She was punching him like she should've been doing with everyone else.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Laurel has never had to fight for her life before. Learning how to fight - which is typically done in a controlled environment - is different from being in an actual fight, especially when the people you're fighting against have guns, crowbars, and a desire to either seriously injure or kill you outright. I know you don't like Laurel and I respect that, but all this complaining is starting to get old.

Yeah, I think that's right. I actually liked that last fight. Laurel struggled a bit in the fight but persevered through. Roy got knocked down a few times but stayed on his feet more than Laurel did. Both took punches and got some in themselves.

It's much better than the first time when Laurel would hit somebody with a pipe and it would do nothing and she'd get her ash handed to her. It makes sense she isn't going to do well against the tougher fighters, but she seemed out her league in every fight, which isn't realistic by season 3. But I do think they've hit a nice balance that will hopefully be improved on. She doesn't fight like her sister (at least not yet), but she should be able to at least fight.

 

[Loki882]

She didn't do anything really impressive in Season 1. He blindsided some a-hole in a bar, basically just kept hitting those two thugs with random stuff lying around her apartment, and apparently only loaded one shell into her shotgun. She never straight up BEAT anyone. So people seem to be overestimating her abilities in Season 1.

 

[Mike Murdock]

But she seemed to even suck at blindsiding people this season. She hit someone with a tire iron (or something similar) and it didn't even have the same effect as random things from her apartment.

 

[Seb]

I don't know if the writers will use this reason, but I think that if they do it would show great characterisation (whereas if they don't, it just comes off as a weird attempt to appease the fans):

She keeps using Sara's bo staff, trying to be her sister. All her training is in fist fighting, she has sod all training or preparation with a staff. Hopefully they'll have her learn to be herself and play to her strengths instead of trying to be Sara and failing because of it.

EDIT: It would also align her more with Dinah in the comics, who is basically just a bare-knuckle brawler (one of the best in the world, but still, not really a 'weaponry' kind of girl)

 

[zenith16]

I don't know if the writers will use this reason, but I think that if they do it would show great characterisation (whereas if they don't, it just comes off as a weird attempt to appease the fans):

She keeps using Sara's bo staff, trying to be her sister. All her training is in fist fighting, she has sod all training or preparation with a staff. Hopefully they'll have her learn to be herself and play to her strengths instead of trying to be Sara and failing because of it.

EDIT: It would also align her more with Dinah in the comics, who is basically just a bare-knuckle brawler (one of the best in the world, but still, not really a 'weaponry' kind of girl)

Bingo

oh but with some one like brick hand to hand doesn't work to well, so they better keep their distance which mean's Ollie better not do hand to hand at all with any one there including Brick. but I know the writers will some how make Ollie make a mistake there. we'll see. but he needs to stay away from him.

Happy to see you caught that part with laurel, she has no training using the staff at all . She'll ether have to use the canary bombs or a tazer I'd say both Ollie and arsenal should us tranqs with their arrows, if not gas arrows or tazer like arrows to take him down .

I don't think if they sell tranq bullet to normal people in any market except for hunters so Diggle's out of luck there

 

[Primal Slayer]

She didn't do anything really impressive in Season 1. He blindsided some a-hole in a bar, basically just kept hitting those two thugs with random stuff lying around her apartment, and apparently only loaded one shell into her shotgun. She never straight up BEAT anyone. So people seem to be overestimating her abilities in Season 1.

She has done some moves that no one with any training would know how to do. It made her capable enough.

 

[Silliminite]

Really good episode. Roy and Laurel fighting on their own was fantastic, and I'm really excited at this point to see Palmer suit up. I've resigned myself to accepting that they won't do the Oliver 'coming back to life' storyline justice, so it doesn't bug me. Laurel impersonating Sara is just plain wrong though, it's playing with Lance's emotions just so that he has an even bigger heart attack when he learns of the truth.

Next week's ep should be epic.

 

[zenith16]

that heart attack will be bad no matter what sadly the writers really want it to happen too no matter what way she choose to tell him. '

Which sucks she just doesn't want it during crisis where he's pushing him self o the field with beat cops as he like to do & not pay attention to his meds.

 

[Nathan]

She didn't do anything really impressive in Season 1. He blindsided some a-hole in a bar, basically just kept hitting those two thugs with random stuff lying around her apartment, and apparently only loaded one shell into her shotgun. She never straight up BEAT anyone. So people seem to be overestimating her abilities in Season 1.

She at least knew self-defense in season 1. And did well enough to actually take out the 2 guys that were trying to abduct her. One of them even got their head smashed into a cabinet.

And even when she blindsided that guy in the bar, it still looked like she actually knew what she was doing. Now in season 3 she blindsides someone with a pipe or bat, and it does absolutely nothing.

And every time someone grabs her by the throat, years of self-defense training are suddenly forgotten, and she just shuts down, waiting to be killed.

But she seemed to even suck at blindsiding people this season. She hit someone with a tire iron (or something similar) and it didn't even have the same effect as random things from her apartment.

She now comes across as a random civilian, without a day of combat training, trying to be a crime fighter. When in season 1 and 2 she did stuff like this.

Spoiler

Now she is struggling for struggling's sake.

 

[Kar]

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/po...ow-ever-going-to-show-exactly-how-tatsu#notes

Now he saying

hi Marc! i know that some people are upset and think that Oliver surviving was unrealistic. you said he was just badly hurt and not dead but i think some people feel like the cold and stitches and penicillin tea probably wouldn't heal him of being run through the mid-abdomen with a scimitar and that's just one of his many wounds (i say heal him anyway that you can) but will it ever be further explained how Oliver survived with his injuries? does Tatsu have magic herbs like Yao Fei or something?

We may delve a bit deeper into it in the future.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/po...c-i-know-that-some-people-are-upset-and#notes

But the writers are so deadset on grounding the show in reality. All of this wouldn't be an issue if they just didn't have Ollie lose the way he did. Stabbed and thrown off of a high cliff is just too hard for me to believe. I'm definitely going to keep watching the show I'm just definitely marking this down under "Oh C'mon Moments" like Slade wanting revenge for Shado's death.

 

[Primal Slayer]

She at least knew self-defense in season 1. And did well enough to actually take out the 2 guys that were trying to abduct her. One of them even got their head smashed into a cabinet.

And even when she blindsided that guy in the bar, it still looked like she actually knew what she was doing. Now in season 3 she blindsides someone with a pipe or bat, and it does absolutely nothing.

And every time someone grabs her by the throat, years of self-defense training are suddenly forgotten, and she just shuts down, waiting to be killed.



She now comes across as a random civilian, without a day of combat training, trying to be a crime fighter. When in season 1 and 2 she did stuff like this.

Spoiler

Now she is struggling for struggling's sake.

I really feel like I should bookmark this comment lol.

 

[yonny616]

She at least knew self-defense in season 1. And did well enough to actually take out the 2 guys that were trying to abduct her. One of them even got their head smashed into a cabinet.

And even when she blindsided that guy in the bar, it still looked like she actually knew what she was doing. Now in season 3 she blindsides someone with a pipe or bat, and it does absolutely nothing.

And every time someone grabs her by the throat, years of self-defense training are suddenly forgotten, and she just shuts down, waiting to be killed.



She now comes across as a random civilian, without a day of combat training, trying to be a crime fighter. When in season 1 and 2 she did stuff like this.

Spoiler

Now she is struggling for struggling's sake.

I agree 100%. They've been sprinkling in that she was capable of handling herself pretty well in the first two season, but they seemed to have dumb-ed her skill set down so they won't have the Laurel haters, who seemed to have forgotten about the first two seasons, *****ing until the roof blows because she can handle herself.

 

[Loki882]

I guess it's just a difference of opinion. I DON'T think that they've done a good job of teasing what she can do over the first two seasons. In act I've complained about it before, especially in season 2. Nothing that I've seen her do is all that impressive. She's got some basic self-defense training, that's all I've seen displayed so far. The fact that they've used her as a damsel in distress so many times over the course of the show doesn't help matters in that regard.

 

[Human Torch]

I think the bottom line is Laurel finds herself in over her head. It's one thing to take self defense classes and do well against the average punk/bar clown. But going up against someone like Brick,she obviously wasn't going to suddenly become Batman. This is still pretty much her first week on the job for Heaven's sake.

Stuff like her trying to jump on the van and being unsuccessful however,reeks more of the showrunners saying "Look,don't worry.She's not a bad*** yet." I could do without more of that. She should be competent enough for things like that.