Arrow Arrow Season 3, Episode 3 "Corto Maltese" General Discussion

[DigificWriter]

I'm apologizing right now for behaving overzealously with regards to Laurel's character and my stance on the opposition to her and her current arc (which she's been on since Season 1 in one form or another).

 

[Human Torch]

I wonder how much she reads into the critics, they are gonna have a hard time I think winning her back with the fans. Even on stephen amells facebook, there's quite a number bashing her, and she has to know, but try to ignore the critics.

I don't necessarily blame her, she was miscast and the writers have only set her up for continual, bringing in Caity Lotz as a BC, making felicity such a strong defining character, and even Moira, being such a strong woman.

I did appreciate her beat-up look, only because it finally felt she just wasn't a diva acting..kind of like a megan fox where you know she got the role because of her looks and not her skill, she actually felt real there.

I did like her performance in that hospital scene.That's the best I've seen from her in a while.

As I said before,it's more the character that grates on me,than the actress.It can't be help but be noticed that her subplot this episode went down beat by predictable beat.

As soon as she met Ted,you knew she'd be back for training at the end.
As soon as she heard the girl's story,you knew she'd try to take the guy on (and lose).
You knew Quinton would say "Don't ever do this again" and she'd agree.
After getting her butt kicked,you knew she'd go to Ollie who'd flatly refuse to help train her.

Now,I could still go along with all of that,if it had been done last year.But they kept playing it like there was some huge ultra ambitious storyline they were salivating to unveil.I can't really help but feel let down after the massive build up. So while it may not be "bad" per say,it feels entirely underwhelming.

 

[Loki882]

My overall feelings on Laurel aside, one thing that I definitely think is that she needs to stop being a DA soon. I'm sorry, but she's gone WAY over the line repeatedly, she doesn't deserve that job. She blackmails her boss repeatedly and is able to get out of that mess when Slade conveniently has said boss killed. And then last episode, she's goes full-on Jack Bauer on a defenseless man in a hospital and then essentially murders Komodo (she just got lucky that Oliver had taken the bullets out of the gun before hand). That last part REALLY annoyed me because it seemed like the show just then immediately brushed that aside with Oliver's "what's important is that you didn't kill him" line. Hey Oliver, if you hadn't emptied the gun, SHE WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!

 

[Mister J]

She's going to quit and become a florist.

Spoiler

 

[JC00]

My overall feelings on Laurel aside, one thing that I definitely think is that she needs to stop being a DA soon. I'm sorry, but she's gone WAY over the line repeatedly, she doesn't deserve that job. She blackmails her boss repeatedly and is able to get out of that mess when Slade conveniently has said boss killed. And then last episode, she's goes full-on Jack Bauer on a defenseless man in a hospital and then essentially murders Komodo (she just got lucky that Oliver had taken the bullets out of the gun before hand). That last part REALLY annoyed me because it seemed like the show just then immediately brushed that aside with Oliver's "what's important is that you didn't kill him" line. Hey Oliver, if you hadn't emptied the gun, SHE WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!

Don't forget how she knew the abusive boyfriend had warrants and yet instead of getting Felicity to ping the cell phone and get his location and make an anonymous call so he would get arrested she grabbed a bat and a ski mask.

 

[Mikelus]

Don't forget how she knew the abusive boyfriend had warrants and yet instead of getting Felicity to ping the cell phone and get his location and make an anonymous call so he would get arrested she grabbed a bat and a ski mask.

Again repeating the same thing over and over... Are you ok?

But yeah, she's the worst thing ever, she's a murderer that has killed lots of people while getting a pass from the authorities instead of being judged by... oh wait, that's Oliver Queen, then he must be the worst superhero ever!!


(sarcasm off)

Is so easy to bash Arrow when you think of it, still better than Gotham though.

 

[Boy Scout]

Well, to be fair, that's not hard.

 

[Loki882]

Oliver isn't a freaking DA, who take an oath to uphold the law. So no, it's not the same thing. I didn't say that she was the "worst thing ever" not even close. I simply said that she shouldn't have THAT job, not after everything that she's done to violate her oaths/ethics.

 

[JC00]

Again repeating the same thing over and over... Are you ok?

But yeah, she's the worst thing ever, she's a murderer that has killed lots of people while getting a pass from the authorities instead of being judged by... oh wait, that's Oliver Queen, then he must be the worst superhero ever!!

Oh get over yourself. People dislike the character and we are going to voice our opinion. No-one is stopping you from voicing your dislike for any character on the show.

 

[regnak]

I didn't say that she was the "worst thing ever" not even close..

No one said you did. Mikelus said that in response to JC not you.

 

[Seb]

This argument is never going to end. It's based entirely on feelings and affinity for a character. Some people dislike her, some people like her, that's how we work because we're all unique ****ing snowflakes with an ironic tendency towards flamewars. Can we try to at least argue about stuff that has substance?

For example: assuming Laurel is going to stick around an not die (pretty much a certainty) how would you like her character to progress if you like her or improve if you don't?

For my part, I'd just like to see her be good at something. I've said it before, show me someone being competent and I'll like them more. Watching someone fail is fine when juxtaposed with success, but when it is all they do it gets annoying. In the first season, she was a decent enough lawyer and I liked her for it. Since then she's spiralled (understandably) but we don't actually get to see how she's recovered. Apparently she's a good lawyer again: show us! When Oliver was a murdery sullen son/friend/brother/ex he was also a successful vigilante. Lance is a good cop, Felicity is a great techie, Diggle's a badass, etc. Even when she was in the way and a pain, Moira was an icey badass in defence of her children and husband. Thea was least entertaining as a spoiled wild child and she improved when she showed compassion for others and a knack for running a nightclub.

How do other people feel, on both sides of the Laurel fence? I feel like the writers are only showing us the worst of her, and that makes us have to consider what is going on off-screen in order to properly empathise with her.

 

[Boy Scout]

The courtroom stuff doesn't do anything for me. Those scenes would work better if her cases were tied to the antagonist of the episode (sparingly) or another lead. Time spent outside of the courtroom should be spent training and bonding with Team Arrow.

 

[Verick808]

I hated Laurel up until Oliver tore her a new one and she started moving past her BS so I understand people are going to dislike her. I just think a lot of the reasons people hate her are weak and are just excuses to continue hating a character. Laurel tried to kill a man. Big deal. Ollie shot Vertigo off a roof after promising not to kill. Didn't see anyone throwing shade him then. Sara killed the Dollmaker after he abducted Laurel. No shade there either. Sara went back to being a bloody assassin but everyone still adored her. Laurel decides to vent some anger by beating on a wife beater and all some people can do is complain about the fact thay she's a prosecutor. Like that small little ethical boundary is anywhere near the crap her sister did and went back to doing. Its a complete double standard. That's what I find annoying.

That and the arguement thay all these characters died to develop her character. Tommy's death made her character worst and was mostly for Oliver anyway. Her getting her bosses job has affected like three or four lines of dialogue? Most of what she does now could have still done with her older job. Her going into the field so often might have made a little more sense if she was someboy's stooge. Her boss died because she was not so major a character thay it would shake the series but was familiar enough for us to remember it. Sara's death was predominantly for Laurel. Laurel, however, is the only reason she survived the Queen's Gambit. She lived so that she could die. It was written in the stars. Faulting Laurel for needing someone to die before fighting crime is ridiculous. How many people died for Ollie to become who he is now? We don't even know yet.
Hate her because her personality? Fine. It's not my place to fault anyone for that. Start throwing around double standards or ridiculously biased arguments and I'm going to feel obligated to point them out.

 

[Mikelus]

I hated Laurel up until Oliver tore her a new one and she started moving past her BS so I understand people are going to dislike her. I just think a lot of the reasons people hate her are weak and are just excuses to continue hating a character. Laurel tried to kill a man. Big deal. Ollie shot Vertigo off a roof after promising not to kill. Didn't see anyone throwing shade him then. Sara killed the Dollmaker after he abducted Laurel. No shade there either. Sara went back to being a bloody assassin but everyone still adored her. Laurel decides to vent some anger by beating on a wife beater and all some people can do is complain about the fact thay she's a prosecutor. Like that small little ethical boundary is anywhere near the crap her sister did and went back to doing. Its a complete double standard. That's what I find annoying.

Exactly, haters give Ollie a pass because he's the Arrow and Sara was the Canary, which are shallow reasons because they are not better human beings than Laurel, but haters are going to hate, they're irrational. I have always been critical of Arrow's writing, I think they should've made Dinah Laurel Black Canary from the beginning of the series, showing flashbacks of how she became her alter ego while Ollie was away, it would've made the character more interesting, but I'm not going to hate the producers for their mistakes, they're aware of them and are trying to do better, now Laurel is in the right direction, finally!

Tommy's death made her character worst and was mostly for Oliver anyway. Sara's death was predominantly for Laurel. Laurel, however, is the only reason she survived the Queen's Gambit. She lived so that she could die. It was written in the stars. Faulting Laurel for needing someone to die before fighting crime is ridiculous. How many people died for Ollie to become who he is now? We don't even know yet.
Hate her because her personality? Fine. It's not my place to fault anyone for that. Start throwing around double standards or ridiculously biased arguments and I'm going to feel obligated to point them out.

Indeed, Tommy had to die for Oliver to become a hero, but it stills doesn't change the fact that he's killed many people, anyone could call Oliver Queen a murderer because that's the reality. All the characters should be criticized equally, no one should get a free pass, but to do that, people have to be more objective and less emotional.

 

[Hunter Rider]

The term "haters" is thrown around as a way of loosely grouping every negative view on something as invalid. I don't think the reason people dislike Laurel is just because they preferred Sara, I think the issue is that Katie Cassidy has no warmth or likability to her

Every character has made mistakes and done things that could cast them in a negative light, sometimes just to serve as a plot device, but I think in general the actors have a likability to them that sees fans ignore the flaws. In truth I think they made a mistake not casting Cassidy in a villain role, she's not a bad actress and could use her harsh look and coldness to really deliver.

 

[regnak]

The term "haters" is thrown around as a way of loosely grouping every negative view on something as invalid. I don't think the reason people dislike Laurel is just because they preferred Sara, I think the issue is that Katie Cassidy has no warmth or likability to her

Every character has made mistakes and done things that could cast them in a negative light, sometimes just to serve as a plot device, but I think in general the actors have a likability to them that sees fans ignore the flaws. In truth I think they made a mistake not casting Cassidy in a villain role, she's not a bad actress and could use her harsh look and coldness to really deliver.

I disagree with you on KC but wouldn't call you a hater.

We call people haters who apply double standards to everything Laurel does, who keep repeating the same crap over and over and over and over again and who constantly whine about things. Sorry(not actually) but they deserve to be called haters.

 

[p4poetic]

I give it a strong 8. Its amazing how much better the show is when there's no romance.

 

[p4poetic]

I disagree with you on KC but wouldn't call you a hater.

We call people haters who apply double standards to everything Laurel does, who keep repeating the same crap over and over and over and over again and who constantly whine about things. Sorry(not actually) but they deserve to be called haters.

I refer you to this

Laurel: *being an actual badass, and kick some ass*
Arrow fandom: ugh, this isn’t even realistic, dumb Laurel.


Laurel: *being weak for once and have her ass kicked or being kidnapped*
Arrow fandom: ugh she is SO weak, Sara was so much better than her, she is just a midsell in destress, dumb Laurel.


Laurel: *don’t talk to Felicity as they’re not close yet*
Arrow fandom: ugh, look at how she ignores Felicity, she’s disrespectful, dumb Laurel.


Laurel: *talk to Felicity*
Arrow fandom: ugh, stop talking to her, she’s not your friend, dumb Laurel.


Laurel: *crying over Sara*
Arrow fandom: ugh, you two weren’t even close, dumb Laurel


Laurel: *stop crying over Sara and trying to make revenge*
Arrow fandom: ugh, why she isn’t even crying over Sara? she’s not even grieving her own sister, dumb Laurel


Laurel: *being a badass lawyer*
Arrow fandom: ugh, what a bore, dumb Laurel.


Laurel: *trying to follow her sister’s step*
Arrow fandom: ugh, she’ll never be Sara, dumb Laurel.


Laurel: *breathing*
Arrow fandom: ugh, dumb Laurel


Laurel:
Arrow Fandom: ugh
​

 

[regnak]

Yeah there are a number of people like that here.

 

[Verick808]

The term "haters" is thrown around as a way of loosely grouping every negative view on something as invalid. I don't think the reason people dislike Laurel is just because they preferred Sara, I think the issue is that Katie Cassidy has no warmth or likability to her

Every character has made mistakes and done things that could cast them in a negative light, sometimes just to serve as a plot device, but I think in general the actors have a likability to them that sees fans ignore the flaws. In truth I think they made a mistake not casting Cassidy in a villain role, she's not a bad actress and could use her harsh look and coldness to really deliver.

I just think she isn't good at the damsel in distress thing or the pure-hearted and naive defense lawyer thing we saw at the beginning. She does action and anger pretty well though so I think the future arc is right up her alley. She would have been a really good Huntress.

 

[JC00]

Laurel fanboys are THE worst.

 

[Boy Scout]

Laurel fanboys are THE worst.

Laurel "fanboys" don't seem to exist here. There are those of us who hate her and those of us who either like or tolerate her. I don't think I've seen a single person who loves her.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think any Laurel fan makes her out to be little miss perfect who can do no wrong. But we who like Laurel arent any worse then the people who dislike her.

 

[Mister J]

Getting real close to bouncing people on extended vacation or even having the subforum masked from their view entirely. This back and forth (even if not targeted at a specific individual or post) is going to end, one way or another.

Irrespective of viewpoint, stop trying to paint the 'other side' as who's worst, more irrational or with whatever other needless jabs that continue to perpetuate this nonsense. Let a mod deal with whatever is aberrant and stop cluttering up these threads and the board, in general, with more of this petty infighting.

Good grief.

 

[Seb]

I think that one of the problems with the argument is that everyone seems to be arguing different things. For example: to me, Laurel is one of the better people on the show, but I don't find her interesting and feel that the storylines she is given tend to be dull and often tangential to the main plot (which I imagine will change once she's Black Canary). Meanwhile, as a couple of examples, Nyssa and Malcom are definitely not good people, but I could watch both of them for literally hours.

Particularly regarding the whole 'good person' thing, I don't think anyone is arguing that Oliver or Sara are morally superior to Laurel, just more entertaining. (At least I hope that's the case, because Ollie and Sara have both gone through some seriously questionable periods.) I think the only characters that I would argue stand above Laurel on the moral totem pole are Felicity (at the top), Lance and Diggle. Thea probably sits around the same level as Laurel, everyone else has a death count that precludes them from that (Though Tommy was up there with Lance and Diggle when he was alive, and Walter when he was around).

Following that train of thought, it seems that if you are a generally decent sort, you either get on Team Arrow (I would count Lance, despite not being in on the secret) or you get written off the show. I think that's why people couldn't get on board with Laurel (and I assume must also have disliked Thea): the pair of them were on the outside with only vague ties to the main plot. As they both get more into the hero/villain game they'll be easier to write for and therefore more entertaining to us, the viewers.

PS. sorry for the probably non-sensical wall of text, just hoping we can either stop arguing the same stuff. EDIT: and Mister J said it first and more concisely. (It amuses me that the Joker is the voice of reason)