Arrow Arrow Season 2 Episode 17: "Birds of Prey" Rate and Review Thread

[Quasimod0]

There are too many people in the arrow cave. lol. Its like a party in there

 

[Golgo-13]

Yeah, i was thinking the same thing. They may as well let Det. Lance in there next……..

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I still can't get how everyone gripes over the secret identity thing.It's a staple of the comics and it's (as of now) the only element live action DC is doing better than Marvel.The voice changer,the hood/hair in the face,covered by darkness should be enough to earn them decent "suspension of disbelief" points.


Digg had his moment last week (and frankly in retrospect it was fairly underwhelming).I don't really know what people expect from him.He's not really a "field man",so he's not always gonna have a ton to do.I've advocated suiting him up,but to be honest there's already enough masked heroes in the Arrow cave.

Yeah people are just spoiling the fun for themselves at this point.

Superheroes have secret identities. This isn't new people, deal with it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Not the point. If you were in Helena's position, you would know Oliver would come after you, and you would want to use every advantage you have against him to either keep him at bay or away from you entirely. What better way to do that than threaten to expose him?

She wouldn't have needed proof because the idea of him being the vigilante being introduced to the police (again) or the city at large (again) would have been troubling enough. Even if she did need some proof, it probably wouldn't have been hard to get.

That still wouldn't be troubling. No one would have any valid reason to believe a psychotic murdering maniac who even has a complete mental breakdown by the end of the episode. Keep in mind they had evidence of him grabbing a Green Arrow suit and jumping in action last time, and he still got off free. Plus he still has his alibi from 1x05. Also the fact that she didn't say anything until now would further invalidate her point.

Plus I don't see what proof she could have got.

 

[eplo]

That still wouldn't be troubling. No one would have any valid reason to believe a psychotic murdering maniac who even has a complete mental breakdown by the end of the episode. Keep in mind they had evidence of him grabbing a Green Arrow suit and jumping in action last time, and he still got off free. Plus he still has his alibi from 1x05. Also the fact that she didn't say anything until now would further invalidate her point.

Plus I don't see what proof she could have got.

Well I think it would've been dumb for them to go that route...but she has.broken into the arrow cave before so she could easily get proof

 

[mr. peasant]

However, here are a couple of things people seem to be forgetting:

1. Helena has fingered Oliver as the Vigilante before and nothing came of it.

2. Helena has no reason to out Oliver. She doesn't seem to bear any ill will or grudge against him.

 

[Shikamaru]

Well I think it would've been dumb for them to go that route...but she has.broken into the arrow cave before so she could easily get proof

The police already investigated the Arrowcave in Season 1.

 

[Golgo-13]

Isn't it just a matter of time before Det. Lance figures out that Oliver is Arrow..? I'm surprised, him once being a Detective and all, that he hasn't figured it out yet.

 

[mr. peasant]

A little bit more on the episode:

I get why the writers did what they did. And while the way things played out worked reasonably well, I can't help but think that there might've been a better way to have done things if the goal was to start Helena's journey towards atonement.

Instead of the hostage situation, some other setup could've been used to bring Helena and her father back to Starling City. In addition, when she and Laurel crossed paths, Helena could have been more sympathetic to the latter's loss; seeing themselves as kindred spirits somewhat.

Then, at the climax of the episode, Laurel would get seriously injured and Helena would be forced to choose between finally killing her father or saving Laurel's life and allowing him to escape. She'd inevitably go for Option B; thereby showing there is still some good left in her and would help establish a positive relationship between her and Laurel (should a future Birds of Prey team-up be in the works).

Incidentally, aside from showing that there is hope for Helena, other positives of this scenario is that it gives an excuse for Laurel to be absent for the next few episodes; where the storyline is likely to focus on the Queen family drama, with her character taking a backseat. Plus, it lays the seeds for when they decide to show Helena's trial; with Laurel possibly volunteering to be her lawyer out of a sense of debt. It also leaves the door open for Frank Bertinelli to reappear again some time in the future.

Speaking of which, I feel that Frank Bertinelli was the weakest point in the episode. For a powerful crime boss, he had little to no teeth to him. Throughout the episode, he was completely complacent and subservient to everyone else. He should've had some card up his sleeve... some escape plan. It just seems wrong for him to willingly go to prison without at least a struggle.


One final note:
Did anyone else really enjoy Lochlyn Munro's as the SWAT Captain? Really hope this isn't the last we've seen of him. I mean, it would be nice to have a little more active antagonism against Team Arrow from the law and the guy really seems to have it out for vigilantes.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

I'm not asking for oliver to be a saint. I'm just wishing that they would make him a lot more likable as a person. He's still pretty much the same selfish kid before the island. He chastises his mother for all of her lies when he's pretty much the biggest liar there is.

Oliver is a HUGE hypocrite. It really feels a big part of his character. he's so spoiled and arrogant he doesn't even realise he's being a hypocrite. I think they've really tried to rein it in this series, the first series it was getting ridiculous..

Olly : You can't kill pepople! KILLING IS WRONG!!
"killer" : You killed 16 people to get to me in order to tell me that?
Olly : That's different, that's because..err.. YOU FAILED THIS CITY!

*arrow to the head*

Isn't it just a matter of time before Det. Lance figures out that Oliver is Arrow..? I'm surprised, him once being a Detective and all, that he hasn't figured it out yet.

I'm pretty positive he knows already.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I gotta admit, Thea is definitely one of a kind, especially for CW female characters standard since she's been incredibly patient with a lot of Roy's "mood swings" for the entire season, and even now, she still gives him some benefit of the doubt.

I feel like this just makes Oliver's decision to force Roy into giving up Thea, his one true good connection that calms him down, into a bigger ass than he already is.

Frankly, the show really does a good job in reminding me at times on why Oliver Queen/Green Arrow isn't exactly considered one of DC's greatest heroes in stature. It's not a problem to make mistakes here and there, but to constantly be making them, and without realizing it..now that's a problem.lol

Yeah, even when she catches him cheating on her she realizes what it really was and why he was doing it, she is more hurt by him not being honest with her over the why.

Ollie's decision was another one that shows why he's not truly ready to be a leader, he was thinking with tunnel vision and not looking at the positive impact Thea has on Roy and ignoring where he'd be if he was cut off from Diggle and Felicity, without them would he still be dropping bodies regularly? I think so. He seemed to admit his failure with Helena this week and I think by the end of the season his failures will be his biggest burden.

It gives Ollie a tremendous humanity that makes him such a compelling character, he's not the perfect hero.

 

[Human Torch]

I'm pretty positive he knows already.

He doesn't know.There's been no evidence to support that he does.

Ollie has a secret identity.Traditionally speaking,that means no one can find out his real I.D. by just looking at him in costume.That's just how it works in the genre.Plus,Lance already suspected him and found his suspicions disproved within the first half dozen episodes.(Ollie beat a freakin' lie detector!)There's no reason for him to keep suspecting.

This was a normal concept in the SH genre for decades.I don't know why it's such a tough sell for some.

 

[Nathan]

Because he now knows his daughter is a vigilante as well, dates Oliver, and she keeps hanging out with the Arrow. Even if he shouldn't know by looking at him, there are more than enough other hints that should him make suspect that Oliver is Arrow.

 

[Human Torch]

The fact that she's dating Ollie isn't exactly damning evidence that he's Arrow.Like I said,they dealt his suspicion already.He passed a lie detector test.I don't see why he wouldn't be satisfied by that.

 

[mr. peasant]

Because he now knows his daughter is a vigilante as well, dates Oliver, and she keeps hanging out with the Arrow. Even if he shouldn't know by looking at him, there are more than enough other hints that should him make suspect that Oliver is Arrow.

On the flip side, he's also aware that the two of them have a shared past and connection because of the Queen's Gambit going down, and the two of them have been shacking up with one another in the past.

 

[Dagenspear]

I see the Huntress as the Faith (BTVS) of this series, just not as interesting.

Or well written. But that goes for the whole show.

 

[Nathan]

The fact that she's dating Ollie isn't exactly damning evidence that he's Arrow.Like I said,they dealt his suspicion already.He passed a lie detector test.I don't see why he wouldn't be satisfied by that.

Because he isn't an idiot. He already suspected him once. There is no reason he shouldn't suspect him again, especially when clues keep mounting up. He could easily come to the conclusion that he had someone else run around in the Arrow gear. Detective Lance isn't random joe schmoe. He has heavy contact with both Oliver and Arrow. It's inevitable that he'd eventually find out the truth. He might even already know and simply not say anything about it.

 

[Dagenspear]

A little bit more on the episode:

I get why the writers did what they did. And while the way things played out worked reasonably well, I can't help but think that there might've been a better way to have done things if the goal was to start Helena's journey towards atonement.

Instead of the hostage situation, some other setup could've been used to bring Helena and her father back to Starling City. In addition, when she and Laurel crossed paths, Helena could have been more sympathetic to the latter's loss; seeing themselves as kindred spirits somewhat.

Then, at the climax of the episode, Laurel would get seriously injured and Helena would be forced to choose between finally killing her father or saving Laurel's life and allowing him to escape. She'd inevitably go for Option B; thereby showing there is still some good left in her and would help establish a positive relationship between her and Laurel (should a future Birds of Prey team-up be in the works).

Incidentally, aside from showing that there is hope for Helena, other positives of this scenario is that it gives an excuse for Laurel to be absent for the next few episodes; where the storyline is likely to focus on the Queen family drama, with her character taking a backseat. Plus, it lays the seeds for when they decide to show Helena's trial; with Laurel possibly volunteering to be her lawyer out of a sense of debt. It also leaves the door open for Frank Bertinelli to reappear again some time in the future.

Speaking of which, I feel that Frank Bertinelli was the weakest point in the episode. For a powerful crime boss, he had little to no teeth to him. Throughout the episode, he was completely complacent and subservient to everyone else. He should've had some card up his sleeve... some escape plan. It just seems wrong for him to willingly go to prison without at least a struggle.


One final note:
Did anyone else really enjoy Lochlyn Munro's as the SWAT Captain? Really hope this isn't the last we've seen of him. I mean, it would be nice to have a little more active antagonism against Team Arrow from the law and the guy really seems to have it out for vigilantes.

You're not wrong. It's been happening a bit too often this season.

 

[DrCosmic]

I still can't get how everyone gripes over the secret identity thing.It's a staple of the comics and it's (as of now) the only element live action DC is doing better than Marvel.The voice changer,the hood/hair in the face,covered by darkness should be enough to earn them decent "suspension of disbelief" points.

Either it makes sense or it doesn't. It doesn't. It's a fault in the show.

Digg had his moment last week (and frankly in retrospect it was fairly underwhelming).I don't really know what people expect from him.He's not really a "field man",so he's not always gonna have a ton to do.I've advocated suiting him up,but to be honest there's already enough masked heroes in the Arrow cave.

Most times if you ignore something and then try to cram a bunch of development in for it just to ignore it again, you don't get good results. Meanwhile all the other characters are getting great lines and subplots and story arcs all season long whether they're in the field or not. Digg was the voice of reason, the conscience for a while. The team needs that desperately now, because Ollie is out to lunch, even if they don't need him to pinch-hit anymore. Also, if this were a bit more realistic, a guy who had military experience would be an invaluable resource. Invaluable. That'd be good writing, imho. It does mean dividing up the supporting cast screen time more evenly.

 

[LongbowHunter]

One final note:
Did anyone else really enjoy Lochlyn Munro's as the SWAT Captain? Really hope this isn't the last we've seen of him. I mean, it would be nice to have a little more active antagonism against Team Arrow from the law and the guy really seems to have it out for vigilantes.

Did they tell his name? Because if not I hope he's the show's take of Brian Nudocerdo

 

[combocaz]

I wasnt feeling this episode, bad acting and some of the fight choreography was abit meh.

 

[Nathan]

Yeah, the fights were pretty weak. I wonder why that was.

 

[Boy Scout]

That still wouldn't be troubling. No one would have any valid reason to believe a psychotic murdering maniac who even has a complete mental breakdown by the end of the episode.

1) She wouldn't have had to actually go through with it. I feel like she should have threatened to do so to keep Oliver at bay. The fact that she didn't seem to even consider it was baffling. My point wasn't that she should have done so and succeeded in convincing anyone; it was that she should have attempted or threatened to do so, because she had absolutely no reason not to.

2) Again: Oliver would not want the idea of him being the vigilante to be reintroduced to either the police or the public at large, regardless of the person reintroducing it.

If Helena had actually done it, people would have started asking questions. Why Oliver Queen (of all people)? Why would she even bother trying to expose the vigilante instead of fighting him outright?

Keep in mind they had evidence of him grabbing a Green Arrow suit and jumping in action last time, and he still got off free.

That was a situation Oliver created, was prepared for, and had control over.

Also the fact that she didn't say anything until now would further invalidate her point.

Not really.

Plus I don't see what proof she could have got.

She could have confronted him and recorded it without his knowledge instead of sending him on a wild goose chase.

1. Helena has fingered Oliver as the Vigilante before and nothing came of it.

See above.

2. Helena has no reason to out Oliver. She doesn't seem to bear any ill will or grudge against him.

Helena was willing to do whatever it took to get to her father. She doesn't need to have a personal grudge against someone to kill them or ruin their life.

 

[Human Torch]

Either it makes sense or it doesn't. It doesn't. It's a fault in the show.

It does make sense when they gave plausible reasons why one wouldn't be able to tell their I.D.

Most times if you ignore something and then try to cram a bunch of development in for it just to ignore it again, you don't get good results. Meanwhile all the other characters are getting great lines and subplots and story arcs all season long whether they're in the field or not. Digg was the voice of reason, the conscience for a while. The team needs that desperately now, because Ollie is out to lunch, even if they don't need him to pinch-hit anymore. Also, if this were a bit more realistic, a guy who had military experience would be an invaluable resource. Invaluable. That'd be good writing, imho. It does mean dividing up the supporting cast screen time more evenly.

I don't really disagree,but I just see the same complaints from people wanting him to do more,yet not be a costumed crimefighter.Ya kinda can't have it both ways.I mean,the guy is overqualified to just hang around giving good advice,but then you can't just cram another masked man into the show,when it's already busting at the seams.

 

[mr. peasant]

I don't really disagree,but I just see the same complaints from people wanting him to do more,yet not be a costumed crimefighter.Ya kinda can't have it both ways.I mean,the guy is overqualified to just hang around giving good advice,but then you can't just cram another masked man into the show,when it's already busting at the seams.

What they could do was have Diggle function as an "overwatch" capacity; watching over the area and giving Oliver additional situational awareness.