Arrow Arrow Season 2 Episode 20 : "Seeing Red" Rate and Review Thread

[Frodo]

. Tonight's episode really made some bold moves and actually could have been a season finale. I really didn't see so many twists coming and if anything, I thought it would be a potboiler ahead of the finale.

10/10. Good job.

 

[Mike Murdock]

So 2 league members and the Dollmaker were cold blood?

The League members, yes, they had already been subdued. The same is probably true for the Dollmaker too. My memory is fuzzy, but I got the impression that Ollie was trying to take him in before Sarah killed him.

Oliver went to those places with the intention to kill someone, then killed their guards because they were in the way. So technically Oliver attacked first and they did their job.

Well, to be more specific, he usually went in those places with the intent to threaten and cajole ("give them a choice" as he put it) and killed the guards because they were in the way. It is relatively cold-blooded, I suppose, and undermines my point, but he also only killed the people with guns who could shoot him back. As we've seen, he probably could knock out their guns instead, but it's sort of in the middle. I'm not saying they aren't murders, but it's more an indifference to whether they live or die rather than seeking out their death.

 

[Destructus86]

Yeah, they're not going to kill Roy. He's way too big a character in the GA mythos to dispose of this quickly. Plus, they've all but confirmed that he'll eventually become Arsenal.

Which would just be awesome!!

 

[JC00]

Just saying Oliver has a lot more "cold blood" murder on his hands in Starling than she does.

One count had him at 55 kills in Season 1

 

[AspieXLDS]

In terms of 'cold blooded murder' in Starling, yes, Oliver definitely has the monopoly, so to speak, in a contest between he and Sara. But he started shifting away from killing even before the Season 1 finale; and there were definitely a lot more men he fought then 26 or 27, which is how many 'arrows in bodies' Lance said they had in the morgue when he confronted Thea and Roy about Roy's interest.

However, we don't know the body count as far as Oliver on the Island, but we can guess that, as a member of the League of Assassins, there's a high body count attached to Sara. I doubt they have a 'train and release' policy, so after dedicated training, even Malcolm probably had to perform a few high-profile missions for Ra's before being released. Sara was in the League for four years, as opposed to Merlyn's 2. She also states she had only recently begun to regret what she was doing before she heard about the Undertaking.

As far as the two League members are concerned: there was Al-Owal, who made it clear that he would pretty much return to finish the job. Someone threatens your family, you don't stop. She let the last of Al-Owal's strike team go to inform Ra's that her family was off-limits (something Nyssa didn't listen to). The final League member she supposedly killed is the one who took snake venom. So of the three League members she had at her mercy, she only killed one.

As for the Dollmaker.... technically speaking, it was execution not unlike what Oliver had been doing the year previous. The Dollmaker was already down and Oliver was going to turn him in to Lance or someone else. Sara chose to kill him, but in all honesty, that remains one of my favorite episodes because I completely loathe sexual sadists and like it when someone portrays them getting what they really deserve.

 

[Loki882]

It's not that the Dollmaker didn't deserve that (he certainly did). It's just that some people are trying to argue that what Sara did wasn't cold-blooded. It's no different than when the Punisher walks up to a criminal who's lying on the ground completely helpless and shoots him point-blank through the forehead. The person may have deserved to die, but it was still cold-blooded on the Punisher's part, and Sara killing the Dollmaker was the same way. Also, she only spared the one LOA guy because both Oliver and her dad told her not to kill him.

 

[AspieXLDS]

It's not that the Dollmaker didn't deserve that (he certainly did). It's just that some people are trying to argue that what Sara did wasn't cold-blooded. It's no different than when the Punisher walks up to a criminal who's lying on the ground completely helpless and shoots him point-blank through the forehead. The person may have deserved to die, but it was still cold-blooded on the Punisher's part, and Sara killing the Dollmaker was the same way. Also, she only spared the one LOA guy because both Oliver and her dad told her not to kill him.

Oh, I agree. Just I have a bit less morals when it comes to sexual sadists and what they do or do not deserve. Let me put it this way.... my favorite TV show for the last three years, since I was introduced to it, was Dexter. So in comparison, Sara's relatively tame.

 

[Coconut1214]

The League members, yes, they had already been subdued.

Those were assassins, do you really think they would just walk away after being defeated? They were sent to take her out and wouldn't stop until she was dead. She won so she took them out. Plus Oliver and Lance killed the other two.

We don't know how many people Sara killed while she was with the League. We know of the one guy that made her want to stop. Not saying she doesn't have a high body count, we just don't know it.

But I was talking about since she arrived in Starling City. She has 3 bodies compared to the 50 or so Oliver had in his first year. So I wouldn't exactly classify Sara as a cold blooded killer. She has obviously showed a lot more restraint than Oliver did.

 

[JC00]

But I was talking about since she arrived in Starling City. She has 3 bodies compared to the 50 or so Oliver had in his first year. So I wouldn't exactly classify Sara as a cold blooded killer. She has obviously showed a lot more restraint than Oliver did.

Ya I mean it's not like she chased down some thug criminal and snapped his neck because she didn't want him knowing her secret.

 

[Nathan]

And lets not forget the weapons dealer. It was off-screen, but I'm pretty sure he got a arrow to the chest, because he wouldn't stop his business in Starling.

 

[b_boy]

I think Sara's motivation to kill is well established since the begining of the season. She was a killer, regreted that, it's leaving that life behind BUT when it comes to her family or someone really close to her, she goes back to killer mode without too much thinking. To me it's good character development, she's trying to be better, but in some cases she still loses it.

The Dollmaker almost killed her sister and her dad, so she killed him without second think (let's be honest, who here in the heat of the moment would think "no, let's forgive him").

The assassins of the LOA were there to kill her family, she took them out.

Huntress wouldn't mind killing Laurel and threw Sara out of a window.

Roy beated her, hurt Sin and broke Oliver's knee.

But other than that, she didn't kill the guys in the first episode and Felicity investigated her prior to Starling and she just beated guys who would hurt girls.

 

[blknrdcllctv]

This episode has stuck with me. I feel bad for rating it so low. I definitely think it's deserving of a higher score. I was just initially bored with a lot of the Roy storyline. Everything else came together very nicely. The acting was incredible, especially at the end. I've been waiting for my brother to return from his business trip so we can chat about this. I'm just waiting on the text I know he'll send, "WTF just happened?"

 

[Golgo-13]

I can't see Sarah making it out of this season…she's either going to die or permanently leave Starling. The whole CW 'i'm not girlfriend/wife material' speech she gave Ollie in this past ep, pretty much sealed her fate.

 

[Nathan]

I wouldn't say it sealed her fate. She could easily come back after she had time to heal and calmed down and doesn't want to immediately kill anyone that hurts her friends. Even with them broken up now, they could still eventually end up together again in Season 4 or 5.

 

[Mike Murdock]

^ I hope she doesn't die. I'm fine with her leaving, which leaves a window for her return. Hell, I'd be OK with her faking her death once more as well. I just don't want her to die and be gone for good.

Just saying Oliver has a lot more "cold blood" murder on his hands in Starling than she does.

One count had him at 55 kills in Season 1

Well, I used cold-blooded for a reason. I wanted to use a narrower definition that the legal definition (intentional killing of a person with premeditation and malice aforethought). [Puts on Matt Murdock glasses]Since premeditation need only be for an instant, many of those killings would be first degree murders. Moreover, there were others where he certainly consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk in a manner that showed an extreme indifference to human life. That would be second degree murder.[/MMGlasses] I'm excluding all of those. Instead, I'm talking about situations where the killing is unnecessary to any more significant purpose, but he still feels the death is the better choice. I don't know how many of those there are, but they're certainly few and far between.

I don't think the deaths are at 55. The official number was closer to 27. I suspect many of those counted as dead were just seriously injured instead.

 

[AspieXLDS]

^ I hope she doesn't die. I'm fine with her leaving, which leaves a window for her return. Hell, I'd be OK with her faking her death once more as well. I just don't want her to die and be gone for good.



Well, I used cold-blooded for a reason. I wanted to use a narrower definition that the legal definition (intentional killing of a person with premeditation and malice aforethought). [Puts on Matt Murdock glasses]Since premeditation need only be for an instant, many of those killings would be first degree murders. Moreover, there were others where he certainly consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk in a manner that showed an extreme indifference to human life. That would be second degree murder.[/MMGlasses] I'm excluding all of those. Instead, I'm talking about situations where the killing is unnecessary to any more significant purpose, but he still feels the death is the better choice. I don't know how many of those there are, but they're certainly few and far between.

I don't think the deaths are at 55. The official number was closer to 27. I suspect many of those counted as dead were just seriously injured instead.

Let me add to this. In the episode where Quentin speaks to Roy and Thea about the arrows and how many people have actually been killed by the Hood, he says "This is number 26." That was near the end of the season, around Episode 18 or 19. In Episode 13, Oliver ran through all of his arrows fighting Vanch's 'veritable army' of thugs, which numbered 25. While Oliver has killed some goons as well as bad guys, most of those hit by arrows were more likely wounded. Otherwise, Quentin would've said, "This is number 59," or something like that.

 

[AspieXLDS]

As far as Sara is concerned.... I have been a fan of her, but in all honesty, the one thing I hated about Smallville was that they kept bringing Lana back, and then when it wasn't that, it was constant 'let's tease Chlark' each episode. Both of those annoyed the hell out of me. Arrow has lightly teased Olicity, and not to the extent that Chlark was teased.

As for the comparisons I've seen of Laurel and Lana.... Episode 18 of this season pretty much eviscerated those comments IMO. Lana went five and a half seasons unknowing of Clark's powers, though she knew he had always been there to save her. Laurel has found out who the Arrow is, and it is after having spent a good portion of this season either hunting the Arrow or just hating him (in Episode 11 she mentions she wouldn't have had Quentin arrange a meeting if she had another choice).

Would I like Sara to still be part of the story? Sure. But only if it makes sense. If Season 3 is meant to have Laurel transforming believably into Black Canary, then yeah, there's really only one option there. Besides, while the Arrow has been mentioned in news constantly in Starling City, I've never heard the news call Sara the Canary. Right now, there's evidence to support the claim of either Lance sister as the Proto-Canary. Finally, it depends on if they think they can handle two different flashbacks: Island and League. If they aren't able to do that believably, there wouldn't be much point in showing Sara's training with the League.

In other observations: it looks like we know what the clock tower was used for, unless there's something more to that. Since the last 'one word clue' was 'Rise', I'm guessing we'll see Oliver 'rise' as a hero rather than a killer.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I can't see Sarah making it out of this season…she's either going to die or permanently leave Starling. The whole CW 'i'm not girlfriend/wife material' speech she gave Ollie in this past ep, pretty much sealed her fate.

I hope they don't kill her off, I think a Canary/Huntress/Nyssa Birds of Prey spin-off has potential.

 

[raisethe3]

This is what I was thinking. But Nyssa will be the villain and maybe they can get someone cast as Oracle. Would be great.

I am still unsure about Jessica DeGouw playing Huntress though. Not that she's terrible, but I don't know.

I hope they don't kill her off, I think a Canary/Huntress/Nyssa Birds of Prey spin-off has potential.

 

[fire117]

I hope they don't kill her off, I think a Canary/Huntress/Nyssa Birds of Prey spin-off has potential.

Agreed.

If any character is to be killed off next. I hope to god its Laurel.

 

[Sawyer]

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

9.5, this episode was pretty eventful and it really brought the story places. Can't wait till next week!

 

[Mask&Cape]

Absolutely fantastic episode.

Did not see that coming.

Gut wrenching that Moira is gone but great storytelling and superb acting.

Susanna Thompson owned every scene she appeared in.

I love all the characters but if I had been asked who were vital to to the show enough that it couldn't go on without them, I would have said Oliver and Moira.

She is also insanely hot