BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 1

[Jekecy]

Contextual using the gravity of the situation? If I had found out a stranger set fire to the apartment building next door that killed everyone in it along with my building killing my friends and girlfriend, rationalized in my rage he would easily do it again, then chased and caught the guy, beat him senseless and was about to kill him, but right before I did he said the name of someone I love dearly, I'd probably beat him harder to find out why he said it. then I find out the person he's talking to has nothing to do with the person I lost in my life, I'd still kill him. You know why? It has nothing to do with my I was gonna kill him in the first place.

Pick one:

1) Your analogy is missing a good Samaritan who tried to stop the stranger (and ultimately failed)

2) You're beating up Zod

 

[LostSon88]

Which would make COMPLETE sense if Batman WASN'T already a killer. Which he is. Which makes that a mute point.

The difference is that those that he killed were clearly criminals. Bruce's hatred again stems from the fear that Superman MAY one day turn on them.

Leading up to this Bruce does seem to concede that Superman is a "good guy" but...given his history and experience in Gotham, that never lasts.

"20 years in Gotham, Alfred...how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

 

[Poni_Boy]

Pick one:

1) Your analogy is missing a good Samaritan who tried to stop the stranger (and ultimately failed)

2) You're beating up Zod

1) Good samaritan will be dragged out of the way

2) What does this have to do with the analogy?

 

[Poni_Boy]

????????????

BATMAN. ISN'T. A MONSTER. That's why?

How hard is it for people to understand? We know as the audience that Superman isn't the bad guy. At that point, Batman realizes that all Superman ever wants to do is save and protect.

Tell me exactly when and how this happened in the movie and I'll reneg my point

 

[RadioSha]

We understand it, it just makes no sense. How does Superman having a mother suddenly neutralize him as a potential threat? He still had a mother when he was demolishing Metropolis in the fight with Zod. Why does Bruce suddenly believe that might not happen again just because Superman has a mother?

Killing a bunch of petty gun hire thugs isn't justice either, but he had no qualms about doing that. Don't try and tell me he didn't know they had mothers.

The reasoning behind that whole resolution between Batman and Superman was flimsy, half baked, flowery tripe. Bruce abandoned his whole vendetta against Superman for the most idiotic reason.

IT DOESN'T NEUTRALIZE HIM.

But Batman learns something! Batman realizes that killing Superman is WRONG. IT'S NOT JUSTICE. Holy crap you guys. Did you all see Man of Steel. He isn't to blame for the thousands that were killed. Batman was wrong. The entire. Fricken. Time.

Batman finds out that Superman is a gooooooood guy. What do you want him to do??!?

Equating Superman who saved millions with criminals who, by definition, commit crimes and ARE BAD PEOPLE is insaaaaanity.

Superman, good guy with a mothers =/= Criminals, bad guys with mothers.

 

[Poni_Boy]

The difference is that those that he killed were clearly criminals. Bruce's hatred again stems from the fear that Superman MAY one day turn on them.

Leading up to this Bruce does seem to concede that Superman is a "good guy" but...given his history and experience in Gotham, that never lasts.

"20 years in Gotham, Alfred...how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

Because he has a mother? That's literally the only thing that changed


I swear, guys, take a step back and look at it logically without filling in the holes with your comics knowledge.

 

[RadioSha]

Tell me exactly when and how this happened in the movie and I'll reneg my point

"Save. Martha"

As he's about to be impaled.

 

[Poni_Boy]

"Save. Martha"

As he's about to be impaled.

Again, how does that apply to Superman no longer being the world killer threat Batman is convinced he is?

 

[Poni_Boy]

We understand it, it just makes no sense. How does Superman having a mother suddenly neutralize him as a potential threat? He still had a mother when he was demolishing Metropolis in the fight with Zod. Why does Bruce suddenly believe that might not happen again just because Superman has a mother?

The reasoning behind that whole resolution between Batman and Superman was flimsy, half baked, flowery tripe. Bruce abandoned his whole vendetta against Superman for the most idiotic reason.

Yep

 

[Jekecy]

1) Good samaritan will be dragged out of the way

2) What does this have to do with the analogy?

That's it's unrelated to what I'm asking. Your example is focused on a single, malicious perpetrator which you understandably retaliate against. It's analogous to Bruce targeting Zod.

That's not what's happening. Bruce has already acknowledged Supes is not the one performing bad acts, but his presence is inviting it. His paranoia convinces him the samaritian is either going to go bad himself one day or will unintentionally be involved in yet another massacre.

The important fact here is Batman does not see Supes as a villain. I'm sure he's already aware he's taking measures against someone who has technically not done anything wrong himself. But when the stakes are humanity's survival due to his increasing fear, he's found a way to justify it. You take the fear and doubt component out the equation, and you have what Bruce failed to uphold as a priority; someone just trying to do good.

 

[MrsKent26]

Which would make COMPLETE sense if Batman WASN'T already a killer. Which he is. Which makes that a mute point.

He probably didn't view those others he killed as human, either. I remember him talking to Alfred or somebody and saying stuff like "Criminals are criminals. They're all the same." "Criminals are like weeds. You pull one up and another one grows in its place." Or something to that effect. He's got them labelled: Criminals. Bad guys that are expendable. He had superman labelled too: Destructive alien that must be eliminated. Those other guys just didn't get the chance to use the Martha thing to change batman's view of them. Superman was both clever and lucky with that.

 

[Poni_Boy]

That's it's unrelated to what I'm asking. Your example is focused on a single, malicious perpetrator which you understandably retaliate against. It's analogous to Bruce targeting Zod.

Dude, that is EXACTLY what you asked me:

"Humor me; have you ever had a stranger done something which has completely pissed you off or at least ruined your day? And you come to find out said stranger is actually a friend or someone you know? What did you do?

"Is it not feasible you've stopped focusing on the act, and rather re-contextualized the incident to now take into account a person with no malice?"

Why would you ask me to contextualize the scenario in the real world, then refute my answer because it was based in the real world?

That's not what's happening. Bruce has already acknowledged Supes is not the one performing bad acts, but his presence is inviting it. His paranoia convinces him the samaritian is either going to go bad himself one day or will unintentionally be involved in yet another massacre.

The important fact here is Batman does not see Supes as a villain. I'm sure he's already aware he's taking measures against someone who has technically not done anything wrong himself. But when the stakes are humanity's survival due to his increasing fear, he's found a way to justify it. You take the fear and doubt component out the equation, and you have what Bruce failed to uphold as a priority; someone just trying to do good.

Once again, what was the catalyst for Batman to realize this. Having a mother =/= he won't cause the deaths of millions as Bruce says:

"He has the power to wipe out the entire human race and if we believe there is even a one percent chance that he is our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty."

 

[RadioSha]

Again, how does that apply to Superman no longer being the world killer threat Batman is convinced he is?

It doesn't apply at all!

The point of him wanting to kill Superman is that he was clouded by rage of what happened in Black Zero event- which wasn't his fault. He's clouded by what happened at the congressional hearing- which wasn't his fault.

And he knows he that wasn't his fault, but still goes after him, you know why? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T SEE HIM AS A HUMAN BEING, even more specifically, A GOOD HUMAN BEING!!!!!!!!!!!

He says it over, and over, and over, and over again throughout the fight.

He only sees him as a force of nature. Only when he realizes that he has someone who loves him and loves back that clicks for him.

He realizes- "Oh my god. I'm about to kill a HUMAN PERSON for trying to do the right thing."

You guys are asking circle-jerky questions. The point is that the scene either works or don't work for some people.

 

[Poni_Boy]

He probably didn't view those others he killed as human, either. I remember him talking to Alfred or somebody and saying stuff like "Criminals are criminals. They're all the same." "Criminals are like weeds. You pull one up and another one grows in its place." Or something to that effect. He's got them labelled: Criminals. Bad guys that are expendable. He had superman labelled too: Destructive alien that must be eliminated. Those other guys just didn't get the chance to use the Martha thing to change batman's view of them. Superman was both clever and lucky with that.

And, again, what about having a mother named Martha stops Superman from being a destructive alien that must be eliminated?

 

[RadioSha]

If Poni_Boy doesn't know what a human being is. It's this.

 

[nautolis]

people who thought the first half was boring, just didn't understand it,nor did they understand the lex character as a villain.

those that have a problem with batman killing, Alferd in the movie mentions how Bruce has changed through the years , which is perfectly fine for a person who has been in the crime fighting business for more then 20 years, and some situation in the movie there was no time for batman to take out each bad guy one by one so made a lot of sense.

is it different then other superhero movies? yes, does it make it bad? hell no. i for one was happy that there wasn't just 1 villain from the start and the heroes are trying to figure out throughout the whole movie how to take him out, the villain was doing his thing and the heroes had no idea he was the villain.

i mentioned it before , but many are prone to the power of suggestion, reading or hearing people say something is bad before seeing it yourself just makes that person think it is bad and thus will feel the same thing after watching it, if the critics said it was great we wouldn't even be having this conversation, that's the sad truth.

 

[Poni_Boy]

It doesn't apply at all!

The point of him wanting to kill Superman is that he was clouded by rage of what happened in Black Zero event- which wasn't his fault.

How does Batman know it wasn't his fault?

He's clouded by what happened at the congressional hearing- which wasn't his fault.

Again, how does Batman know it wasn't his fault?

And he knows he that wasn't his fault, but still goes after him, you know why? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T SEE HIM AS A HUMAN BEING, even more specifically, A GOOD HUMAN BEING!!!!!!!!!!!

Not once is it ever referenced that he must destroy Superman BECAUSE he is not human. That is never the reason for his needing to be destroyed in Batman's eyes.

He says it over, and over, and over, and over again throughout the fight.

He only sees him as a force of nature. Only when he realizes that he has someone who loves him and loves back that clicks for him.

He realizes- "Oh my god. I'm about to kill a HUMAN PERSON for trying to do the right thing."

You guys are asking circle-jerky questions. The point is that the scene either works or don't work for some people.

Dude, seriously, you still haven't answered the question we keep asking hah

 

[Doppelganger]

people who thought the first half was boring, just didn't understand it,nor did they understand the lex character as a villain.

i mentioned it before , but many are prone to the power of suggestion, reading or hearing people say something is bad before seeing it yourself just makes that person think it is bad and thus will feel the same thing after watching it, if the critics said it was great we wouldn't even be having this conversation, that's the sad truth.

So people are too stupid for a Batman/Superman movie AND can't form their own opinions?

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Yet Rotten Tomatoes is owned by Time Warner lol

Hydra...uh, Marvel infiltrated Warner when the movie was announced. "Vas?? Zupahmann verzes Battmann? Nein, nein!!!"

 

[MrsKent26]

And, again, what about having a mother named Martha stops Superman from being a destructive alien that must be eliminated?

Wasn't that already discussed? It's about perception. Having a mother doesn't change what superman is at all. It changes batman's perception and makes superman appear more human because he's got a mother (like all humans do) that happens to have the exact same name as Bruce's. It gives Bruce a common ground with this alien and therefore makes him seem less alien, even though nothing has changed about superman being a threat. Why wouldn't he find superman less of an "other" when he learned they have a mom with the same name?

 

[Jekecy]

Dude, that is EXACTLY what you asked me:

"Humor me; have you ever had a stranger done something which has completely pissed you off or at least ruined your day? And you come to find out said stranger is actually a friend or someone you know? What did you do?

"Is it not feasible you've stopped focusing on the act, and rather re-contextualized the incident to now take into account a person with no malice?"

Why would you ask me to contextualize the scenario in the real world, then refute my answer because it was based in the real world?

First, you completely redirected the example to someone directly murdering a loved one. I was going for "someone ran a stop sign and drove into your bumper" rather than "your family is massacred, your life is in shambles".

I was asking to imagine a simple scenario based on the presumption that everyone is a good guy, but a circumstance pits them against one another because of perceived fault on the other party. You sprinkle a personal component in there, like recognizing it's someone you know or can sympathize with (for whatever reason), then suddenly said circumstance isn't really as malicious as you once saw it. Anger and personal disconnect clouds judgment.

Once again, what was the catalyst for Batman to realize this. Having a mother =/= he won't cause the deaths of millions as Bruce says:

"He has the power to wipe out the entire human race and if we believe there is even a one percent chance that he is our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty."

There was no catalyst. It's already there before the film even begins. From that same scene:

"We've seen what promises are worth. 20 years in Gotham, how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

He's directly referring to Superman there. Bruce implicitly agrees Superman is a good guy with good intentions. He's trying to relay to Alfred past experiences warn him it won't be permanent, hence his "war".

 

[Greens]

people who thought the first half was boring, just didn't understand it,nor did they understand the lex character as a villain.

Crappy editing =/= not understanding the movie. The first half was boring because they didn't know how to balance it in the cutting room.

 

[nautolis]

So people are too stupid for a Batman/Superman movie AND can't form their own opinions?

Where did i mention the words stupid, not understanding something doesn't make you stupid, but makes your conclusions about that something wrong. i have no problem if you truly disliked it based on your thoughts, but lets face it this movie was getting hate after what the critics said, taking into consideration that many didnt watch the movie that early.

 

[Poni_Boy]

There was no catalyst. It's already there before the film even begins. From that same scene:

"We've seen what promises are worth. 20 years in Gotham, how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

He's directly referring to Superman there. Bruce implicitly agrees Superman is a good guy with good intentions. He's trying to relay to Alfred past experiences warn him it won't be permanent, hence his "war".

Wasn't that already discussed? It's about perception. Having a mother doesn't change what superman is at all. It changes batman's perception and makes superman appear more human because he's got a mother (like all humans do) that happens to have the exact same name as Bruce's. It gives Bruce a common ground with this alien and therefore makes him seem less alien, even though nothing has changed about superman being a threat. Why wouldn't he find superman less of an "other" when he learned they have a mom with the same name?

Wow. You guys are really not noticing how you're piecing together plot holes with your comics stick glue? Nothing in the movie correlates to the association that Superman having a mother means he's no longer a threat. Nothing. You can be ok with that, it doesn't have to bother you, but acting like there's cohesion in that lapse of logic is futile. It's a total non sequitur. It does not follow formal logic.

 

[Cobblepot]

As I see it...

Batman recently lost his track, ditched his no killing rule after the events in MOS changed everything. He felt he needed to step up his game or just be absolete. He decided right there that Superman (an alien) is a threat to mankind and needed to go. Superman was rarely seen in public, Bats figured reasoning with him was out of the question. Lex struck gold with manipulating Batman when he was at his weakest, he wasn't thinking straight. Hunted by nightmares from a future that was bound to happen, afterall he got a message from the future.

Superman at his mercy, asking to save Martha confused Batman. His reasoning didn't make any sense anymore. Why would and Alien care about "Martha"? (Remember that this is a Universe where time travel and other dimensions are a given). He got confused about the Martha thing, Lois answering "It's his mother!". Straight up and changed everything, it made Superman human (if only for a moment) and one that could be reasoned with. It made him a goodguy essentially. He cared more about his mother than about himself.