Rachel: "Do you honestly think that'll keep the Joker from killing people?"
Bruce: "Maybe not, but I have enough blood on my hands."
This is my point. The Joker has blood on his hands, because he is responsibe for the murders, because he committed them. Bruce doesn't. It's all well and good for the Nolans to explore these emotions, but they should at least make logical sense in the context of someone like Batman. Blaming Bruce for The Joker's actions is like blaming police that criminals kill people to avoid going to jail.
The Nolan's began the movie showing how obsessive Bruce is. The logical move would be to show him becoming far TOO obsessed because The Joker is killing people in his name. Apparently, though, the "obsession" angle was just for show, because what Bruce really wanted, was a life with Rachel and to abandon the people of Gotham when they needed him most.
Thank goodness Alfred was there to state the obvious for him.
I don't think he doesn't feel "regret" per say, but if he turns himself in, nobody will blame him for not trying everything he could. If his turning himself in can stop people from being killed, he'll try it. He's not thinking about the ones he couldn't save in the past, he's thinking about the people who can be saved.
Do you think it matters if anyone blames him? As a character, it's not appropriate for him to leave them to the whims of the mob and a terrorist. Obviously he's not interested in saving them, because by giving himself up, he allows a TERRORIST and THE MOB to dictate what happens next in Gotham. Which is inexcusable.
This isn't your average person. This is Batman. A man who took it upon
himself to protect Gotham in BATMAN BEGINS.
Him simpy "giving up" because one man kills a few people (what, five up to that point?) and makes terrorist threats to kill more...is incredibly out of character as well as shortsighted. Him wanting to quit, period, this early in his mission, is incredibly out of character.
You all can argue that it's in character for "movie Batman" all you want. That doesnt make it any more appropriate a characterization for Batman, period.
But he did do something. He broke the law when he became a vigilante, and Gordon warned about escalation at the end of BB.
Batman's actions did not directly cause the deaths of the people Joker murdered. Nor, on any logical level, is he even indirectly "responsible" for them.
Look. There is a difference between you doing something illegal....and some idiot doing something in response that is much, much worse.
I understand the nature of Batman's presence escalating crime in Gotham. But simply QUITTING when things escalate out of control is idiotic in the context of a superhero. Especially if we're to believe he "caused" any of this.
Now, in TDK, people are accusing Bruce right and left of being at least partially responsible for the madness that the Joker's brought on Gotham.
So because people accuse him, Batman should just eliminate all the good he can do by quitting?
Bruce would have to be an unfeeling machine not to care, and he hasn't gotten to that emotional point yet.
I don't mind him caring. I mind him being such an illogical idiot that he allows his feelings to make him act in ways that allow a murdering criminal to dictate what he does in regard to his crusade against crime.
Here's the line of logic he displays in THE DARK KNIGHT:
"The Joker says he will kill people if I don't unmask and turn myself in. Gee, I guess I'll take his word that he'll stop killing people when I unmask and turn myself in, because after all, he says he's a man of his word. I'll just assume that with me off the streets, things all over Gotham won't get much, much, much worse."
Bruce Wayne would have to be an idiot to think like that.
Comic Bruce may not feel qualms over the unintended consequences of his actions but clearly movie Bruce does.
No. Comic Bruce feels qualms, but he doesn't allow these to derail him doing good, and doing the right thing. Quitting when he's likely the only one who can stop The Joker or curtail the mob's activities is hardly the right thing.
I know, I know, Nolan tried the whole "Harvey arrested everyone in town, so Batman's not needed anymore" approach to justify Batman quitting. The Joker wasn't arrested, though. He was still out there, and, one assumes, so were many other criminals who would flood Gotham with crime if Batman went down. The Batman I know wouldn't just surrender to authorities and leave The Joker at large and the city in peril, with himself now unable to stop Joker or any criminal because he's incarcerated.
It's just a different interpretation; one that you don't like but I feel humanizes him.
I don't like the logic, no, because there is none. I don't mind him being humanized at all. I mind him being stupid in his thinking.
It's not "just a different interpretation". It's the result of writers, good writers, mind you, who are more interested in clever story twists than appropriate character development and logic.
It's a good thing Bruce's "major arc" and "character change" only lasts for about two minutes, or there would be a problem.
A Batman who didn't worry at least a bit over what impact his actions have had on others would be almost sociopathic imo.
Again. I don't mind if he worries. I mind if he lets doubt make him into a coward, and allows him to surrender Gotham to the freaking Joker.
You are a stronger person than I am. If I performed a well-intentioned act that backfired massively and hurt a lot of people I'd definitely feel a strong amount of responsibility.
And if you were in Batman's situation, would you do the RIGHT thing, which is not to kowtow to a terrorists demand? Would you go after the SOB and stop him? Or would you do the thing that makes you feel less guilty in the vain hope that this murderer would stop murdering, and that the mob would stop doing what they do?
Nolan's Batman is clearly hard on himself both physically and emotionally.
That's fine. There's a world of difference between thinking something and feeling bad, and quitting over your doubts.
Nolan's Batman is hard on Gotham, apparently, too. As in, he doesn't care enough to think his actions through, as long as the TV is calling him a menace.
As I said, it's simply a characterization that I like and I feel is realistic.
It's realistic, but it's not remotely appropriate for the character.
Batman is just starting out and it'll be a while before he can emotionally shut himself down to the point where he can insulate himself from a sense of guilt over the losses incurred in his crusade.
I'm not asking for him never to experience guilt, or feel loss. That's part of what makes Batman so wonderful a character to begin with. What I'm asking for is a Bruce Wayne/Batman character who thinks things through logically, who assesses guilt logically not someone who blames himself for other people's actions, and who makes kneejerk reactons so that the Nolan brothers can have an emo plot device/twist.
I'm beginning to wonder if they themselves even understand the nature of the situation they themselves invented for Batman to deal with.
He's already tough and cold. Look what he did to Maroni.
