BvS BvS Rottentomatoes score - how important will it be, and what do you hope for? - Part 9

[kedrell]

RT scores under 80 are different then those 80 and above. A lot more consensus with 80 and up.

And even more with 90% and up. Obviously the higher you go the more consensus there will be. But compared with all movies they rate, anything in the 70% range is still damn good. Even stuff in the 60% range is pretty good when compared to the majority. Most don't even get that high.

And 75% is the threshold they use for their Certified Fresh label, not 80%.

 

[MrsKent26]

And to be honest, I don't really care whether Civil War is received better. It has no actual bearing on this film or its contents.

A true thing has been spoken here.

I'm sure there's an RT thread on the CW forums for people to discuss it there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

An off topic consensus at that, at least in terms of what I've been discussing.

And no, vague statements like that have little to do with discussing the actual content of this particular film, or the movie's strengths and weaknesses, which is what I was referring to.

That speaks to the reception of the film, which really isn't in dispute, at least from me.

And to be honest, I don't really care whether Civil War is received better. It has no actual bearing on this film or its contents.

You do realize this is the RT thread right? Where we discuss the critical reception, what it means, and such? You want to discuss the lack of quality of BvS, and its lack of strength and abundance of weakness, plenty of threads for that.

And of course no one cares that Civil War is being received well here. If it was getting killed, yeah they would. But that it is kicking butt with critics and fans alike it is irrelevant. Of course it isn't, as it a direct parallel to this movie. Two big budget superhero vs. flicks being released like 7 weeks apart. Original slated for the same day.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And even more with 90% and up. Obviously the higher you go the more consensus there will be. But compared with all movies they rate, anything in the 70% range is still damn good. Even stuff in the 60% range is pretty good when compared to the majority. Most don't even get that high.

And 75% is the threshold they use for their Certified Fresh label, not 80%.

60 is not good, 70 is average. 80 and up is where you get into "good" territory.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

And even more with 90% and up. Obviously the higher you go the more consensus there will be. But compared with all movies they rate, anything in the 70% range is still damn good. Even stuff in the 60% range is pretty good when compared to the majority. Most don't even get that high.

And 75% is the threshold they use for their Certified Fresh label, not 80%.

And of course, the opposite is true as well. A film that has 10% is going to be considered trash by the vast majority of people.

 

[The Guard]

You do realize this is the RT thread right? Where we discuss the critical reception, what it means, and such? You want to discuss the lack of quality of BvS, and its lack of strength and abundance of weakness, plenty of threads for that.

Do you realize that the specific post of mine that you addressed had a topic?

And that you responded directly to this post, yet veered off that topic to talk about another movie entirely?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Do you realize that the specific post of mine that you addressed had a topic?

And that you responded directly to me, yet veered off that topic to talk about another movie entirely?

What you did was completely pointless here, as it misses the point of the thread. It is like when people show up in the Box Office thread to tell people the movie is good and the majority of people like it, while the box office shows the exact opposite.

Bringing up Civil War's RT score and probable success shows exactly why RT should be heeded and not ignored because it hurts fanboys feelings.

 

[The Guard]

What you did was completely pointless here, as it misses the point of the thread. It is like when people show up in the Box Office thread to tell people the movie is good and the majority of people like it, while the box office shows the exact opposite.

Bringing up Civil War's RT score and probable success shows exactly why RT should be heeded and not ignored because it hurts fanboys feelings.

Except that I was still talking about critics' opinions, and THIS film.

There is no single "point" of this thread. The conversation has gone in many directions, and was currently discussing the validity of critics reviews. But the thread has generally stayed on topic and about this film.

None of this changes the fact that you responded to specific points I made with something that is mostly completely irrelevant to what I had said, and largely about another movie to boot. Which is NOT the topic of this thread.

 

[shinlyle]

Oh, for crying out loud. The flick got a bad overall review score because it's not a good film.

Okay, the 28% is harsh, but let's not pretend this was a misunderstood classic, badly treated by all those horrible Marvel loving critics. In a few months when the hubbub dies down, that'll be the general consensus of opinion, guaranteed.

It gives me no pleasure as a DC fan to say any of this, but it's way past time people stopped mindlessly defending BvS, and took a more level-headed approach. It's just not good. Mediocre at best, poor at worst. The fact that Civil War looks to be several leagues above it doesn't help matters, but that's the hand we've been dealt.

If Civil War were on 28% percent, and BvS was tracking to be in the high 90s, then you can bet your ass DC fans would be lording it over the Marvelites.

Time to stop blaming critics, Marvel, Disney, other fans and anyone else for this. The blame lies squarely with WB, and the man they've let control the direction of the DCEU thus far - Zack Snyder. End of story.

Why can't everyone be as level-headed as THIS GUY?!!

Well said, man!

 

[Consona]

Question: Wouldn't citing Rotten Tomatoes as a measure of quality be considered a version of appeal to authority?

Isn't that a logical fallacy?

Of course it is. Authority can be a single person or a whole organisation. Any time you say "person/people say that X is/is not Y" is a logical fallacy.

 

[InJustice]

Question: Wouldn't citing Rotten Tomatoes as a measure of quality be considered a version of appeal to authority?

Isn't that a logical fallacy?

It is a fallacy, but people continue to misunderstand the RT scoring system, so it's more like a complete error rather than a fallacy.

 

[Monochron]

Question: Wouldn't citing Rotten Tomatoes as a measure of quality be considered a version of appeal to authority?

Isn't that a logical fallacy?

Of course it is. Authority can be a single person or a whole organisation. Any time you say "person/people say that X is/is not Y" is a logical fallacy.

It is a fallacy, but people continue to misunderstand the RT scoring system, so it's more like a complete error rather than a fallacy.

[YT]mgqM6xeZHNM[/YT]

 

[Consona]

Oh, for crying out loud. The flick got a bad overall review score because it's not a good film.

Okay, the 28% is harsh, but let's not pretend this was a misunderstood classic, badly treated by all those horrible Marvel loving critics. In a few months when the hubbub dies down, that'll be the general consensus of opinion, guaranteed.

It gives me no pleasure as a DC fan to say any of this, but it's way past time people stopped mindlessly defending BvS, and took a more level-headed approach. It's just not good. Mediocre at best, poor at worst. The fact that Civil War looks to be several leagues above it doesn't help matters, but that's the hand we've been dealt.

If Civil War were on 28% percent, and BvS was tracking to be in the high 90s, then you can bet your ass DC fans would be lording it over the Marvelites.

Time to stop blaming critics, Marvel, Disney, other fans and anyone else for this. The blame lies squarely with WB, and the man they've let control the direction of the DCEU thus far - Zack Snyder. End of story.

Your "Oh, for crying out loud. It's just not good. End of story." theory does not explain why some people love this film much more than majority of other CB films and why it had such a powerfull impact on them.

And there's interesting post about Civil War looking to be several leagues above it...http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=33459557&postcount=932

Anyway, I hope I will love CW as much as I loved BvS and if this is the case, I'll be happiest CBM viewer on this planet. t: #scr*w_all_ratings_and_consensuses, I can make up my own opinions, thank you very much.

 

[Consona]

[YT]mgqM6xeZHNM[/YT]

The guy in the video is wrong. You cannot use scientists even in their own field of expertise as your argument since there's disagreement even between those experts. Just look at any scientific articles and you'll find objections to the presented results immediately. There is no human authority that is "objectively right" about anything. That's why it's called logical fallacy, because noone knows the truth so you cannot base your arguments on anybody else's conjectures.

Which is based on all those sceptic's modes like infinite regress, circularity, relativity, etc.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Zzzzzzzzzz...

 

[FunkMiller]

Your "Oh, for crying out loud. It's just not good. End of story." theory does not explain why some people love this film much more than majority of other CB films and why it had such a powerfull impact on them.

And there's interesting post about Civil War looking to be several leagues above it...http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=33459557&postcount=932

Anyway, I hope I will love CW as much as I loved BvS and if this'll is the case, I'll be happiest CBM viewer on this planet. t: #scr*w_all_ratings_and_consensuses, I can make up my own opinions, thank you very much.

Some people do indeed love this movie... but not really very many when you get right down to it.

And being able to make up your own opinions does not preclude considering others when doing so. In fact, the only way to have an informed opinion is to consider the thoughts of others, and weigh them up against your own, deciding to agree or disagree with them as you see fit. To simply dismiss the opinions of others is counterproductive at best, and childish at worst.

 

[FunkMiller]

The guy in the video is wrong. You cannot use scientists even in their own field of expertise as your argument since there's disagreement even between those experts. Just look at any scientific articles and you'll find objections to the presented results immediately. There is no human authority that is "objectively right" about anything. That's why it's called logical fallacy, because noone knows the truth so you cannot base your arguments on anybody else's conjectures.

This is the kind of thinking that helps religion flourish - the ultimate logical fallacy.

And there is validity in collective human authority, where facts are arrived at by independent consensus from across the scientific spectrum - evolution, the construction of an atom, the law of gravity, those kinds of incidental things.

You're trying to convince yourself that the concept of logical fallacy applies to all opinion and presented evidence. It doesn't.

 

[Consona]

Some people do indeed love this movie... but not really very many when you get right down to it.

Interesting thing is, i've seen it for the second time with my friends, very different people, who did not read any reviews, maybe don't even know there's something like RT, and they all really liked it too. And they are not comic book nerds or anything. It's a really weird situation, I don't know how to interpret that.

And being able to make up your own opinions does not preclude considering others when doing so. In fact, the only way to have an informed opinion is to consider the thoughts of others, and weigh them up against your own, deciding to agree or disagree with them as you see fit. To simply dismiss the opinions of others is counterproductive at best, and childish at worst.

Of course. I say scr*w ratings and consensuses, I did not say scr*w reviews. Or forums...

I like reading opinions of others. Different points of view are important to me. But the BvS thing is something so blown out of proportion. Critics were mixed about the film, but the internet really loved to start this hate storm of negativity, making it seem like it's the worst thing under the sun.
Like you try to share your view why those things in the film work and you get back only bullying and hate posts that want you to feel you should be ashamed you liked the film. I mean WTF is this?..

 

[Consona]

This is the kind of thinking that helps religion flourish - the ultimate logical fallacy.

And there is validity in collective human authority, where facts are arrived at by independent consensus from across the scientific spectrum - evolution, the construction of an atom, the law of gravity, those kinds of incidental things.

You're trying to convince yourself that the concept of logical fallacy applies to all opinion and presented evidence. It doesn't.

It does. And it does not make me happy either. I love science and all this stuff. But human being is epistemically limited by its nature, there's no solid truth you can find. You cannot even prove your own existence if you really want to get to the core...

 

[FunkMiller]

It does. And it does not make me happy either. I love science and all this stuff. But human being is epistemically limited by its nature, there's no solid truth you can find...

Let me guess... fan of Descartes, right?

Look, it's a lovely argument to have - that we as human beings can obtain no real truths, because all truth must by definition be subjective, and therefore flawed, because we are inherently flawed, and prone to the vagaries of our own psychologies and individual bias. They did that well in The Matrix.

It's also pretty much a load of old hogwash.

There are certain universal, unambiguous truths that exist, which are extremely 'solid'. The aforementioned law of gravity, for example.

I guarantee you, I can line up a thousand second year philosophy students on a bridge - who all know what an ontological crisis is as well as they know their own mother's names - and not one of them will jump off that bridge to prove how nothing in this universe is really true.

How do I know we all see the colour blue the same? Because light particles interact with the atomic structure of the object they strike, and the blue particles in the spectrum wavelength are reflected, while the others pass through.

How do I know Batman V Superman is very probably a mediocre movie, that does disservice to both its source material and its fans? Because I have seen it to make up my own mind, have seen the consensus from 300 independent reviews, and have seen the collapse of the BO.

To quote someone a lot smarter than any of us:

Quod Erat Demonstradum.

 

[Sleiek]

Oh, for crying out loud. The flick got a bad overall review score because it's not a good film.

Okay, the 28% is harsh, but let's not pretend this was a misunderstood classic, badly treated by all those horrible Marvel loving critics. In a few months when the hubbub dies down, that'll be the general consensus of opinion, guaranteed.

It gives me no pleasure as a DC fan to say any of this, but it's way past time people stopped mindlessly defending BvS, and took a more level-headed approach. It's just not good. Mediocre at best, poor at worst. The fact that Civil War looks to be several leagues above it doesn't help matters, but that's the hand we've been dealt.

If Civil War were on 28% percent, and BvS was tracking to be in the high 90s, then you can bet your ass DC fans would be lording it over the Marvelites.

Time to stop blaming critics, Marvel, Disney, other fans and anyone else for this. The blame lies squarely with WB, and the man they've let control the direction of the DCEU thus far - Zack Snyder. End of story.

Most of what you said there is reasonable but what the hell does the bolded section mean? Some of us think it is better than mediocre. It is a subjective opinion. You just can't say the "movie isn't good. End of Story". I will defend this movie till the day I die. But I won't bash Marvel, critics, etc but I will defend the movie not because I am mindless but because I enjoyed the approach they are taking. This is a movie that stuck to me and very few CBM do that. I am thinking about it constantly.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Let me guess... fan of Descartes, right?

Look, it's a lovely argument to have - that we as human beings can obtain no real truths, because all truth must by definition be subjective, and therefore flawed, because we are inherently flawed, and prone to the vagaries of our own psychologies and individual bias. They did that well in The Matrix.

It's also pretty much a load of old hogwash.

There are certain universal, unambiguous truths that exist, which are extremely 'solid'. The aforementioned law of gravity, for example.

I guarantee you, I can line up a thousand second year philosophy students on a bridge - who all know what an ontological crisis is as well as they know their own mother's names - and not one of them will jump off that bridge to prove how nothing in this universe is really true.

How do I know we all see the colour blue the same? Because light particles interact with the atomic structure of the object they strike, and the blue particles in the spectrum wavelength are reflected, while the others pass through.

How do I know Batman V Superman is very probably a mediocre movie, that does disservice to both its source material and its fans? Because I have seen it to make up my own mind, have seen the consensus from 300 independent reviews, and have seen the collapse of the BO.

To quote someone a lot smarter than any of us:

Quod Erat Demonstradum.

Well said. And lucid enough for even a first year philosophy student to understand. Hopefully.

 

[Consona]

Let me guess... fan of Descartes, right?

Look, it's a lovely argument to have - that we as human beings can obtain no real truths, because all truth must by definition be subjective, and therefore flawed, because we are inherently flawed, and prone to the vagaries of our own psychologies and individual bias. They did that well in The Matrix.

It's also pretty much a load of old hogwash.

There are certain universal, unambiguous truths that exist, which are extremely 'solid'. The aforementioned law of gravity, for example.

I guarantee you, I can line up a thousand second year philosophy students on a bridge - who all know what an ontological crisis is as well as they know their own mother's names - and not one of them will jump off that bridge to prove how nothing in this universe is really true.

That's because we have a very strong habits, it has nothing to do with a "truth" of any sort.

How do I know we all see the colour blue the same? Because light particles interact with the atomic structure of the object they strike, and the blue particles in the spectrum wavelength are reflected, while the others pass through.

You don't know that, since I can have an eye defect like color-blindness that permits me seeing the blue colour the way you see it.

How do I know Batman V Superman is very probably a mediocre movie, that does disservice to both its source material and its fans? Because I have seen it to make up my own mind, have seen the consensus from 300 independent reviews, and have seen the collapse of the BO.

It's mediocre film to those who consider it to be mediocre, nothing more.

To quote someone a lot smarter than any of us:

Quod Erat Demonstradum.

Well, IMO, all objections against objectivity of human cognition stay unchanged, so... t:

 

[Consona]

Most of what you said there is reasonable but what the hell does the bolded section mean? Some of us think it is better than mediocre. It is a subjective opinion. You just can't say the "movie isn't good. End of Story". I will defend this movie till the day I die. But I won't bash Marvel, critics, etc but I will defend the movie not because I am mindless but because I enjoyed the approach they are taking. This is a movie that stuck to me and very few CBM do that. I am thinking about it constantly.

Very well said.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's because we have a very strong habits, it has nothing to do with a "truth" of any sort.


You don't know that, since I can have an eye defect like color-blindness that permits me seeing the blue colour the way you see it.


It's mediocre film to those who consider it to be mediocre, nothing more.


Well, IMO, all objections against objectivity of human cognition stay unchanged, so... t:

The law of gravity is not a habit.

My point about light is that blue is blue is blue. Objectively, it remains the same colour, as pure science trumps human philosophy every single time.

And a majority seem to think it is mediocre, which is kind of my whole point.