The Mandalorian Chapter Fifteen Spoiler Discussion

[Schlosser85]

There's also the simple fact that the situations were completely different. Cassian killed that informant in the earlier scene because the *informant* was not capable of escaping. If Cassian didn't shoot him, the dude would have been captured, tortured for information, and then executed. It was a mercy kill. Ruthless, but not exactly villainous.

Ethically, not really the same zone as "Assassinating a dude who you know is a prisoner being forced to work for the Empire". That one is not a million miles away from "Lets poison those wookie slaves, to deny the Empire the fruits of their labor".

I think Cassian and General Draven believed Galen was a willing participant, given they referred to him as an "Imperial collaborator". But your first point is true too. The dude was probably dead either way. It was either just his own death, or the potential deaths of who knows how many other people based on his information.

 

[metaphysician]

That would be weird. Din is a trained Mandalorian in full Beskar Mando armor and will have a Beskar spear and all his gadgets. They set up in this episode that Mando can fight with staffs and throw spears accurately. Gideon's armor is plasteel Imperial armor so a Beskar spear should break it and pierce it. A lightsaber can't cut Beskar. I suspect Mando can beat Gideon 1 on 1. But Gideon will have Dark Troopers to back him up.

I mean, I suspect that Gideon will do *better* than you'd expect, in terms of pure personal skill. . . but that ultimately the fight will be even-ish because Gideon cheats, cheats hard, and cheats well. A fair fight, Din would win in a minute, but he's not going to get a fair fight. He's going to be tired, injured, and ammo-depleted before facing Gideon, and Gideon is totally going to have a trap, back-shooting backup, *and* hostages.

 

[metaphysician]

I think Cassian and General Draven believed Galen was a willing participant, given they referred to him as an "Imperial collaborator". But your first point is true too. The dude was probably dead either way. It was either just his own death, or the potential deaths of who knows how many other people based on his information.

By that point in the movie Cassian had spent enough time interacting with Jyn, it would be implausible if he didn't at least consider her side of the story and version of the guy. Does this make it definitely true? No, but "this guy might be a prisoner" is still a further weight on the moral justification balance vs "this guy is *definitely* a loyal Imperial".

 

[Schlosser85]

By that point in the movie Cassian had spent enough time interacting with Jyn, it would be implausible if he didn't at least consider her side of the story and version of the guy. Does this make it definitely true? No, but "this guy might be a prisoner" is still a further weight on the moral justification balance vs "this guy is *definitely* a loyal Imperial".

He also saw him putting himself in front of the other scientists and trying to save them, plus getting slapped around by Krennic.

 

[BatLobster]

I think what made it work, fundamentally, is that while Mayfield certainly voiced a lot of stereotypical lines, his demeanor made it very clear that this was a thing he was telling to himself. . . and that him saying it didn't make it true, or even mean that he himself really believed it. Thus the payoff with the officers' mess scene, where the director basically went "Okay, now here is the scene where we make it clear that what Mayfield said earlier was BS, and remind you why the Imperials are the bad guys". It was the opposite of the typical "grimdark deconstructive rant BS", where the character speechifying is a director avatar delivering ex-cathedra "truths".

I agree. I also just got a kick out of it, because that speech made it clear why Bill Burr was actually perfect for that role-- cause it really felt like he was just going on one of his cynical rants, just in-universe. It added a bit of an authenticity to it. Similar to how Harrison Ford's natural sort of cocky swagger and sarcasm made Han really feel like a real person.

But he actually nailed the more sincere, dramatic beats too. Bill can act!

 

[godisawesome]

Great episode. The action early on was great, especially when you could tell that Din’s so used to the superiority of Beskar he wasn’t ready for his Imp armor to crumble.

However, the highlight for me was Migs and Din catching drinks with Richard “The First Night King and the Killer of Batman’s parents” Brake. You got Pascal showing how far Din’s willing to go for his kid, clearly being incapable of maintaining the necessary charade without his helmet, yet having Migs be the one who blows their cover.

Notice: this episode managed to make better use of a Game Of Thrones actor as a superior officer to an ex-Imperial protagonist, and without any fancy fight scene or infantile and condescending plotline. This is the kind of stuff that Finn should have been doing in TLJ.

And here’s the great thing I noticed about Migs’s comments about the Empire and New Republic - yeah, he gives the expected cynical and pessimistic speech with strong undercurrents of moral relativism when he and Din are simply infiltrating the base, sounding exactly like the kind of hipster critic of the New Republic you’d expect him to be...

...right up until he’s forced to face up to what the Empire really is once more, in the person of the eponymous believer.

Then it’s all just silently but violently going “Kriff this, kriff you, and kriff the Empire!”, before he goes above and beyond their objective parameters... and gets rewarded by gaining his freedom.

It arguably demonstrates the simple, very real truth that Mayfield may subconsciously realize but vocally denounce - while the Republic can be Gray in morality, they’re still leagues better and incomparable to the pitch dark lightlessness of the Empire’s morality.

 

[BatLobster]

It's odd seeing some people call this a "filler" episode. Yeah, plot-wise it's teeing up the finale. Pretty standard for a show. Character-wise and just in terms of telling a nice, compact story with great action? Probably one of the best episodes to date IMO

Notice: this episode managed to make better use of a Game Of Thrones actor as a superior officer to an ex-Imperial protagonist, and without any fancy fight scene or infantile and condescending plotline. This is the kind of stuff that Finn should have been doing in TLJ.

Sorry to even go here-- but I don't think it really would've fit Finn. We already knew Finn hated The First Order in TFA. He never really exhibited any "both sides!"-ism. He just thought The New Republic didn't realize what they were up against and wanted to get the bad place out of dodge. Mayfield's arc was more like a version of DJ's arc, had he gone the other way in the end. Him doing what he did was that much more powerful precisely because of him playing devil's advocate earlier in the episode and Bill Burr's performance. The foundation for this kind of thing was never laid in the first place with Finn. Mayfield comes off like a guy who's done what he needed to do to survive, and has become very hardened and cynical from his experiences. Finn was a fish out of water who only ever knew life in The First Order due to being taken as a child, but clearly had the heart of one of the good guys. Apples and oranges to me, even though similar on the surface.

 

[godisawesome]

It's odd seeing some people call this a "filler" episode. Yeah, plot-wise it's teeing up the finale. Pretty standard for a show. Character-wise and just in terms of telling a nice, compact story with great action? Probably one of the best episodes to date IMO



Sorry to even go here-- but I don't think it really would've fit Finn. We already knew Finn hated The First Order in TFA. He never really exhibited any "both sides!"-ism. He just thought The New Republic didn't realize what they were up against and wanted to get the bad place out of dodge. Mayfield's arc was more like a version of DJ's arc, had he gone the other way in the end. Him doing what he did was that much more powerful precisely because of him playing devil's advocate earlier in the episode and Bill Burr's performance. The foundation for this kind of thing was never laid in the first place with Finn. Mayfield comes off like a guy who's done what he needed to do to survive, and has become very hardened and cynical from his experiences. Finn was a fish out of water who only ever knew life in The First Order due to being taken as a child, but clearly had the heart of one of the good guys. Apples and oranges to me, even though similar on the surface.

Oh, I’m not referring to the general layout - Finn’s a better person than Mayfield, no doubt, and the chemistry of the scene is different then what Finn would have.

I’m just pointing out that The Mandalorian had more ambition and respect for Bill Burr’s guest star role in an infiltration story than Rian Johnson’s pathetic stab at the idea - where maybe the best way to put it is that Johnson left Phasma even more disappointing that in TFA, and his take on the similar idea of Finn meeting someone from before his exile was to have Tom Hardy slap Boyega’s butt in a deleted scene.

It’s not about the set-up. It’s about treating the characters seriously and actually exploiting their backstory instead of allowing apathy to sweep them under the rug as you misalign and misinterpret their role into a juvenile side story.

Burr’s a guest star. Brake’s a one scene cameo, for all intents and purposes.

Both are better than dragging the black male lead actor around so he can be condescended to and lectured in ways incongruent with his previous work and his character’s writing, or giving the massively overqualified actress a sloppily composed but empty action scene with G.I.Joe dialogue (and *bad* G.I.Joe dialogue at that, not Larry Hama goodness.)

Barr wasn’t a Star Wars fan, and Mayfield wasn’t a popular character (fun, but not popular). Boyega is a Star Wars fan, and Finn was a surprisingly popular lead behind Rey, if reports are to be beloved. Barr clearly enjoys his work here and Mayfield is now getting some modest popularity. Boyega openly talks about being disrespectfully ignored and Finn’s popularity never got capitalized on.

One’s something TLJ deserves to be criticized for, the other is something The Mandalorian deserves to be commended for. And the only real difference in how they were both done is investment, awareness, and ambition in one the other lacked,

 

[Gaultheria]

The main potential consequence would be if/when he eventually meets up with his own "Children of the Watch" sect, and says truthfully that others have seen his face.

The Imperials are dead, and Mayfield is "dead" from a certain point of view, so that might fulfill the requirement of Mando's oath that "no living thing has seen my face".

 

[BatLobster]

Barr wasn’t a Star Wars fan

I always knew that guy was no good.

I'll spare us and everyone another prolonged TLJ debate, and agree to disagree.

 

[Sithborg]

Finn's motivations in TFA needed to be addressed in the next movie. Feeling he should be treated like Mayfeld goes back into TFA, rather than TLJ.

 

[flickchick85]

If people wanted this kind of storyline for Finn, then I agree he would've needed to be rewritten from the start of TFA, because he was established in that film from the get-go as a good guy with a heart of gold who just happened to be wearing a Stormtrooper uniform. There were no shades of grey with him, no "both sides" thoughts, no First Order brainwashing to overcome. He was an unequivocal good guy who knew he was working for the bad guys and just wanted to escape, from his first scene onward.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I just flat out prefer the Imperial Remnant to the First/Final Order. But then, I’ve always disliked that the Sequels reverted to another Empire/Rebellion conflict. I wanted a new group of baddies, with their own ideology. It’s why I liked the angle that Lucas had originally envisioned of a massive Crime Syndicate funding intergalactic terrorism. Crimson Dawn by way of Spectre.

 

[Schlosser85]

Yea the ST just reset the board to Empire vs. Rebellion.

I like splintered Imperial factions, because it was always kind of eye-rolly how a supposed vast Galactic Empire just magically disappeared when the 2nd Death Star blew up. I did like how the EU corrected that, with splintered factions trying to fill the power vacuum and Admirals and Moffs and etc. with their little fiefdoms.

 

[godisawesome]

Finn's motivations in TFA needed to be addressed in the next movie. Feeling he should be treated like Mayfeld goes back into TFA, rather than TLJ.

Finn’s motivations were addressed in TFA; Rian Johnson just got apathetic and too cynical to handle someone who actually had a complex arc that resolved optimistically idealistically instead of pessimistically. His whole film arc is showing gradual growth in motivations and perspective at an actually measured and in-depth pace... one that Johnson then ignored for the sake of trying to portray Finn as too invested in Rey while simultaneously arguing Rey wasn’t invested in Kylo enough.

Meanwhile, in contrast, Mayfield’s character actually has his previous entry acknowledged, built on, and explored with ambition... which fits a general pattern of The Mandalorian vs TLJ - guest stars and established characters get respect in the show, and didn’t get that in the film.

Agin, it’s not really a coincidence that Boyega turned in an award nominated and winning performance in TFA, was excited and enjoyed that, and now has to air his grievances with the next films, while Burr and others are having a blast and getting ambitious storylines worth their time.

TM simply has more consistency and understanding of a greater degree of the audience and the story’s potential than TLJ did. There’s a reason people are excited for spin-offs here while worried about rehabilitating the main heroes of the ST, even though both products had much appreciated launches.

 

[Iceman]

I just flat out prefer the Imperial Remnant to the First/Final Order. But then, I’ve always disliked that the Sequels reverted to another Empire/Rebellion conflict. I wanted a new group of baddies, with their own ideology. It’s why I liked the angle that Lucas had originally envisioned of a massive Crime Syndicate funding intergalactic terrorism. Crimson Dawn by way of Spectre.

That sounds a lot more interesting.

 

[Sithborg]

Spoiler

Finn’s motivations were addressed in TFA; Rian Johnson just got apathetic and too cynical to handle someone who actually had a complex arc that resolved optimistically idealistically instead of pessimistically. His whole film arc is showing gradual growth in motivations and perspective at an actually measured and in-depth pace... one that Johnson then ignored for the sake of trying to portray Finn as too invested in Rey while simultaneously arguing Rey wasn’t invested in Kylo enough.

Meanwhile, in contrast, Mayfield’s character actually has his previous entry acknowledged, built on, and explored with ambition... which fits a general pattern of The Mandalorian vs TLJ - guest stars and established characters get respect in the show, and didn’t get that in the film.

Agin, it’s not really a coincidence that Boyega turned in an award nominated and winning performance in TFA, was excited and enjoyed that, and now has to air his grievances with the next films, while Burr and others are having a blast and getting ambitious storylines worth their time.

TM simply has more consistency and understanding of a greater degree of the audience and the story’s potential than TLJ did. There’s a reason people are excited for spin-offs here while worried about rehabilitating the main heroes of the ST, even though both products had much appreciated launches.

Finn was too invested in Rey. Unlike in ANH, Finn never had a moment of heroism that involved helping Rey. Sure, it could have been ignored, Johnson could have relied on the tropes of the genre to not really focus it, but he chose not to. I disagree that Finn got shafted in TLJ. He had a good story. Now, I understand the criticisms of how they told that story. Splitting up the trio like they did was probably not the greatest decision.

As I have said, exhausting. And while I am fine with Mayfeld's story, I don't particularly see anything noteworthy about it. It is a rather common story in Star Wars.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Spoiler

Finn was too invested in Rey. Unlike in ANH, Finn never had a moment of heroism that involved helping Rey. Sure, it could have been ignored, Johnson could have relied on the tropes of the genre to not really focus it, but he chose not to. I disagree that Finn got shafted in TLJ. He had a good story. Now, I understand the criticisms of how they told that story. Splitting up the trio like they did was probably not the greatest decision.

As I have said, exhausting. And while I am fine with Mayfeld's story, I don't particularly see anything noteworthy about it. It is a rather common story in Star Wars.

But has the mass audience seen most if any of that content? Most of the stories you are talking about are things from the EU/Legends era, none which appeared in live action on the trending to the top streaming service. Hardcore SW fans are used to the Imperial that re-thinks his standing, Agent Kallus being I think the most recent high profile version... And that wasn't live action.

 

[Prison Mike]

I found Mayfield’s story interesting. I consider myself part of the “mass audience” because outside of the movies and this show, I’m not that familiar with Star Wars stories that have been done in the past. I haven’t seen the animated shows much either, aside from an episode or two of Clone Wars.

 

[Breogan]

I just flat out prefer the Imperial Remnant to the First/Final Order. But then, I’ve always disliked that the Sequels reverted to another Empire/Rebellion conflict. I wanted a new group of baddies, with their own ideology. It’s why I liked the angle that Lucas had originally envisioned of a massive Crime Syndicate funding intergalactic terrorism. Crimson Dawn by way of Spectre.

Yea the ST just reset the board to Empire vs. Rebellion.

I like splintered Imperial factions, because it was always kind of eye-rolly how a supposed vast Galactic Empire just magically disappeared when the 2nd Death Star blew up. I did like how the EU corrected that, with splintered factions trying to fill the power vacuum and Admirals and Moffs and etc. with their little fiefdoms.

That sounds a lot more interesting.

Yeah, that was (in part) the old expanded U, Disney washed their hands of.
Prince Xizor says hi.

 

[metaphysician]

It's odd seeing some people call this a "filler" episode. Yeah, plot-wise it's teeing up the finale. Pretty standard for a show. Character-wise and just in terms of telling a nice, compact story with great action? Probably one of the best episodes to date IMO

I think that is a recurring problem among viewers: a tendency to view "advancing the plot" as the only virtue in storytelling. A story can do nothing to advance the plot, and still be hugely important, because it develops and advances the characters. . . and ultimately, its the *characters* that people care about. By and large, plot exists to serve character, not vice versa.

( Also, seriously, even on a plot mechanics level, how is this "filler"? They started off needing to know where Gideon is. By the end, they know where Gideon is. That is plot progress! )

 

[metaphysician]

The Imperials are dead, and Mayfield is "dead" from a certain point of view, so that might fulfill the requirement of Mando's oath that "no living thing has seen my face".

Eh, Din does not strike me as the kind of person to do that kind of lawyer-speak. He's not a Jedi after all.

If that kind of legalistic rationalization ends up being relevant, I'd more see it being done openly at the behest of the Smith. All it takes is revealing that either the Smith specifically, or the Children of the Watch generally, follow the old Jewish custom of "Here are the rules, you follow the rules. . . but when someone is sincere and well-meaning, you interpret the rules in the maximally generous manner". Though that wouldn't be my preference, I lean much more towards "Here is your penance, remember to say the hundred Hail Mary's *while* fighting your way through the entire pirate stronghold, not after."

 

[RockSP]

So this mining operation had the only stormtroopers that can hit anything. And Burr had to blow them up

What are the troopers with the tan armor called? (maybe it's been mentioned but I'm not scrolling through all these pages, heh)

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

So this mining operation had the only stormtroopers that can hit anything. And Burr had to blow them up

What are the troopers with the tan armor called? (maybe it's been mentioned but I'm not scrolling through all these pages, heh)

I believe Shore Troopers is their official name. They also appeared in Rogue One

 

[Blade Hoarder]

This was the best season 2 ep since the first one.