Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - Part 14

[Mjölnir]

In spite of the fact I hated Thor 2 !

Thor 3 has a super-talented director working for it and is looking to be all cosmic.

I agree about Waititi. Everything I've seen from him has been great and had a unique feel to it. I'm so interested in seeing what he'll do with a huge budget production, especially since he said that his biggest surprise of working on the movie is how much freedom he got.

 

[Timebomb]

I think when most people say "destroyed" they mean with regards to the current incarnation of the character. That so much damage was done to the character, that the only way to fix it is to reboot and get a fresh start. At least that's what I generally mean.

The only real exception to this in recent years is Fantastic Four. I think that that brand has been so damaged in the eyes of the public that even a simply reboot isn't enough. They would need a complete rehabilitation (probably as supporting characters in another franchise) before people are willing to give another Fantastic Four movie a chance. Like what Marvel did with Punisher, another character that had been misused for decades.

With regards to the DCEU, I do think they can salvage Batman. Superman and Lex Luthor probably need a reboot. The big problem with Superman was the killing of Clark Kent. I think that's too big an issue to get around. You can fix up the other issues regarding Superman's dull and morose characterization, but there would still be no Clark Kent. And Luthor was just a complete abomination.

EDIT: DC does have the ability to go to another Earth and fix up the characters that way, but I would consider that as being the equivalent of a reboot.

Thank you Kahran for putting it better than I could. Same with you jmc. I didn't mean to lay a ticking bomb this morning and have not been able to respond all day. Of course when I said destroyed it was in reference to the character representation in the DCEU only. People may say these characters are heroic but to me they are damaged. You both articulated what I meant well. Thank you.

 

[Timebomb]

Well remember that Superman The Animated Series episode when people thought Clark was dead and he kept up and he got Lana Lang's help to come up with an alibi so he can go back to being Clark?

If they wanted to they can try something like that to have Superman able to freely be Clark. He can say he was stranded somewhere and had amnesia for a while but Lana or Lois found him and helped him recover. Something like that would be nice if done right

It's just an odd choice that Snyder made. In BVS the front page of the Planet reads Clark Kent Dead and he had an open casket so not sure how you swing that or why you would write yourself into that corner to begin with. In the comics, Clark went missing after the battle with Doomsday. Why not follow that storyline. It's almost like someone doesn't like the character of Clark Kent. Hmm.

 

[DA_Champion]

I wouldn't go so far to say he destroyed the characters but he watered them both down to the point where neither of the characters acted like themselves except in brief moments. It's not just about Superman smiling, it's about him having a viewpoint that is more positive than Batman, something the film fails to deliver.

The only way the fight happens in BvS is if both characters are not who they've portrayed in other media for decades. Batman can't be the world's greatest detective in this story otherwise the fight doesn't happen, and Superman can't be his more positive self in this story otherwise the fight doesn't happen.

Combine that with the fact there is no contrast between the two characters, and the cornerstone to any Batman/Superman relationship is their ideological difference. There's no inherent difference between the two characters, both are sombre and have a negative viewpoint of their world. On top of that they are both perfectly ok with killing people. Not only does that fly in the face of the decades long history between them, it's just flat out poor writing in general to have no contrast between two people who are suppose to fight each other. The argument between the characters is forced and requires you the audience to make the story meaningful via your knowledge of comic book history.

And lets be honest with ourselves, BvS is not a film with a positive viewpoint, in fact it drags its heroes through the mud almost in an attempt to show us how flawed they actually are. Is it any wonder why people disliked it? People want to see their heroes challenged, not beaten to a bloody pulp. You can't blame people for walking out disliking this movie when they feel two of their favourite characters have more or less been spat on by someone who claims to be a fan. There's making a serious superhero movie, and then there's making a dreary superhero movie. Nolan's films for all their seriousness are embedded with positivity despite its dark surrounding, every film ends on a positive note. Snyder forgot that. He was so fixated with what he wanted to do with these character he never stepped back and asked whether he should do it in the first place.

I think I might be ok with a dreary superhero movie if it was well-executed.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I wouldn't go so far to say he destroyed the characters but he watered them both down to the point where neither of the characters acted like themselves except in brief moments. It's not just about Superman smiling, it's about him having a viewpoint that is more positive than Batman, something the film fails to deliver.

The only way the fight happens in BvS is if both characters are not who they've portrayed in other media for decades. Batman can't be the world's greatest detective in this story otherwise the fight doesn't happen, and Superman can't be his more positive self in this story otherwise the fight doesn't happen.

Combine that with the fact there is no contrast between the two characters, and the cornerstone to any Batman/Superman relationship is their ideological difference. There's no inherent difference between the two characters, both are sombre and have a negative viewpoint of their world. On top of that they are both perfectly ok with killing people. Not only does that fly in the face of the decades long history between them, it's just flat out poor writing in general to have no contrast between two people who are suppose to fight each other. The argument between the characters is forced and requires you the audience to make the story meaningful via your knowledge of comic book history.

And lets be honest with ourselves, BvS is not a film with a positive viewpoint, in fact it drags its heroes through the mud almost in an attempt to show us how flawed they actually are. Is it any wonder why people disliked it? People want to see their heroes challenged, not beaten to a bloody pulp. You can't blame people for walking out disliking this movie when they feel two of their favourite characters have more or less been spat on by someone who claims to be a fan. There's making a serious superhero movie, and then there's making a dreary superhero movie. Nolan's films for all their seriousness are embedded with positivity despite its dark surrounding, every film ends on a positive note. Snyder forgot that. He was so fixated with what he wanted to do with these character he never stepped back and asked whether he should do it in the first place.

Agreed with all this. Snyder is bad story teller.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I think I might be ok with a dreary superhero movie if it was well-executed.

I actually have zero problems with the tone of the film. Then again, I view it as more of a Batman movie.

 

[Timebomb]

I think I might be ok with a dreary superhero movie if it was well-executed.

Undoubtedly. But is Superman the right character for it? So many other characters out there that demand dreary and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[DA_Champion]

Undoubtedly. But is Superman the right character for it? So many other characters out there that demand dreary and there is nothing wrong with that.

The Death of Superman comic book is kind of a dreary superman movie, and it works.

It just wasn't adapted properly, not at all.

I was sad when I saw the panels of Superman dying in the comic book omnibus I have.

In the movie? I saw the same panels and felt numb.

 

[Timebomb]

The Death of Superman comic book is kind of a dreary superman movie, and it works.

It just wasn't adapted properly, not at all.

I was sad when I saw the panels of Superman dying in the comic book omnibus I have.

In the movie? I saw the same panels and felt numb.

You have a point. The Death of Superman was very powerful when it happened. Still is. However, Superman was still Superman down to the last blow.

 

[DA_Champion]

You have a point. The Death of Superman was very powerful when it happened. Still is. However, Superman was Superman down to the last blow.

There is some positivity in there of course, but there has to be as dreariness might well be meaningless if it's by iteself. There may be a fundamental need for a diversity of emotions in a movie for each individual emotion to work.

There needs to be a lot of leadup for this comic book image to work:

I felt bad for Lois when reading the comic ... based only on the previous hundred pages or so of comics. She had been established as a character, as had their relationship.

 

[DA_Champion]

Look at how much cooler Superman's funeral was in the comics:

Compare to this:

 

[Timebomb]

Look at the league carrying the casket. Awesome. We will never see that now. All because we needed Superman out of the way so Batman can form the league.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Death of Superman comic book is kind of a dreary superman movie, and it works.

It just wasn't adapted properly, not at all.

I was sad when I saw the panels of Superman dying in the comic book omnibus I have.

In the movie? I saw the same panels and felt numb.

But Superman isn't dreary in it. It is like the whole point. Superman, beacon of light.

 

[The Joker]

Compare to this:

Two characters with no emotional connection to Superman either. One of them spent most of the movie plotting to kill him.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Two characters with no emotional connection to Superman either. One of them spent most of the movie plotting to kill him.

But Superman made Batman feel alive again!!!!!

 

[Kane52630]

Batman:

 

[Timebomb]

Two characters with no emotional connection to Superman either. One of them spent most of the movie plotting to kill him.

But, they are wearing black and it's a funeral so you know it's.........deep.

You mean it's not like the comic panel with Batman carrying the casket and you can feel his anguish because of the history they share. In the DCEU the only history they share are some sore knuckles, a destroyed Batmobile, a spear with a green tip and of course....Martha!

 

[idiot09]

It's just an odd choice that Snyder made. In BVS the front page of the Planet reads Clark Kent Dead and he had an open casket so not sure how you swing that or why you would write yourself into that corner to begin with. In the comics, Clark went missing after the battle with Doomsday. Why not follow that storyline. It's almost like someone doesn't like the character of Clark Kent. Hmm.

Thats simple. Because the movie needs to follow an internal logic. People inside the movie dont know he is going to come back in the next movie, so why would they declare him missing? It only makes sense that Martha would want a proper funeral for her son, not declare him missing.

 

[I Am The Knight]

But Superman made Batman feel alive again!!!!!

 

[OutOfBoose]

Look at how much cooler Superman's funeral was in the comics:

I'm sure Marvel will seize this opportunity with one of their characters.

 

[titansupes]

Probably.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Two characters with no emotional connection to Superman either. One of them spent most of the movie plotting to kill him.

Mr.: "I failed him alive by not being successful in killing him once he cried mommy. Let's assemble a team, I will have assistance from the crazy lady enslaving some of my foes, and other rogues with explosives in their necks."

And

Lady: "I have no memory of being around him other than fighting a whacky CGI monster. I'll join the team you assemble and continue to ignore my flight home."

 

[jmc]

Look at the league carrying the casket. Awesome. We will never see that now. All because we needed Superman out of the way so Batman can form the league.

I'm willing to bet money Marvel will do something along these lines at the end of the Infinity War movies. Someone is dying at the end of that story and when it happens you'll see something like this. And once again Marvel will one-up WB.

 

[The Endless]

I can picture Rogers and Stark sacrificing themselves against Thanos. They all die or they trap Thanos, along with themselves, in the Soul Stone or something.

Be a great way for Evans and RDJ leaving the MCU. The likes of Strange, T'Challa, Carol and Spidey will take the reins.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Thor 3 is your most anticipated? Why, if you don't mind me asking?

Since I also look forward to that flick the most;
Hulk is awesome, Hulk and Thor team-ups are epic.
A movie dedicated to that should be a fantastic scene to behold.