Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - Part 5

[Flint Marko]

I agree. Though i don't think it makes much sense to compare a movie with a TV Show. Two completely different beasts.

Agreed, but we're at a point now that TV shows are a nearly inseparable part of the conversation when discussing the best live action comic book adaptions.

 

[2kt09]

I love iZombie, but I wouldn't say it's worth the discussion.

[blackout]Oh, you were referring to the NMCU[/blackout]

 

[Timebomb]

There was some talk earlier about the Batman in this movie and preconceptions. I liked the look of this cinematic Batman and some of the save Martha fight scene but that's about it. I was not a fan of this character of Batman or his character arc in this movie. Is it because preconceptions? Yeah probably. But who can blame me/us? That preconception is based on years and years of characterization told through numerous story telling mediums. You can't fault us that. When a character's traits have been built up for so long and has come to be widely regarded as that characters defining traits (even by the company that created it) then why wouldn't we expect and want that character to act and behave in that fashion? Below is an excerpt from the DC Wikia that is describing Batman's personality.
"Batman's oath of vengeance is tempered with the greater ideal of justice. He refrains from killing, as he feels this would not make him any better than the criminals he fights."
That is his defining trait and what separates him from characters like the Punisher.
Yes he has killed in other movies and elseworld stories but that does not make it right. Why DC allowed it, I have no idea but there is a large group of people to which the above statement that he does not kill defines Batman.there are many other traits as well. Being a detectime and of a superior intellect. Being in peak physical condition. Being trained in all forms of combat etc. So when a plot goes against these traits or discards them, then they are not doing the character justice. Even portraying the character as broken is doing a disservice. Batman has held to his ideals through all his previous struggles, to suggest he has broken and not explain why is a disservice. All I know, preconceptions or not, I have no interest in this Batman. Just putting a man named Bruce Wayne in a Bat costume does not make him the Batman.

 

[DA_Champion]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/how-many-people-has-captain-america-killed-in-the-marve-1772944715
How Many People Has Captain America Killed in the Marvel Movies?

14,089 apparently.

I don't agree with how they're counted though. Regardless, the lack of a no-kill rule in the Marvel films has been a problem for me for a while. It is a problem in and of itself, and also due to the hypocrites who complained about the Zod death in MoS.

 

[Slade W]

In an attempt to steer this conversation back on topic:
Today I was thinking about good superhero television has become and how several recent shows are already rivaling some of the best superhero films in terms of general quality. I'd argue Daredevil is better than 80% of most CBM's ever made. I'd say the Flash and Arrow are up there as well. Both DC and Marvel are really doing great stuff on TV, and it often goes unmentioned in conversations regarding live action comic book adaptions because films are what most people are focused on.

I agree with all of this (I heard that JJ is supposed to be up there with DD too, but I haven't seen it yet). Arrow and Flash are the best live action adaptions that DC has had going for them since Nolan stopped making Batman movies IMO. They are some of the few things that DC has done well in recent years.

 

[regnak]

In an attempt to steer this conversation back on topic:
Today I was thinking about good superhero television has become and how several recent shows are already rivaling some of the best superhero films in terms of general quality. I'd argue Daredevil is better than 80% of most CBM's ever made. I'd say the Flash and Arrow are up there as well. Both DC and Marvel are really doing great stuff on TV, and it often goes unmentioned in conversations regarding live action comic book adaptions because films are what most people are focused on.

Arrow is dead it has been replaced by Felicity and friends in everything but name and the Flash just had a huge jump the shark moment last ep so it isn't looking great either. The Arrow ep before BvS was so bad it made BvS seem good to me.

 

[TeeKay]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/how-many-people-has-captain-america-killed-in-the-marve-1772944715
How Many People Has Captain America Killed in the Marvel Movies?

14,089 apparently.

I don't agree with how they're counted though. Regardless, the lack of a no-kill rule in the Marvel films has been a problem for me for a while. It is a problem in and of itself, and also due to the hypocrites who complained about the Zod death in MoS.

You realise Captain America is a soldier right? Who happened to fight in WWII. I don't remember him having a no kill rule in the comics. Neither did Tony, Thor, Widow etc. Daredevil in the MCU has a no kill rule.

Superman having a no kill rule is a defining character trait. I had no problem with him Killing Zod but it was just executed horribly. And then they even ditched that rule in his first scene of Batman v Superman smh.

 

[batfreakforever]

Superman killed Zod in the old film wtf but in the new film it's not ok?

 

[ernesth100]

There were alot of team ups and fights this year.

-Daredevil vs Punisher(ft Electra)
-Flash and Supergirl
-Iron Man vs Captain America(ft almost every other Avenger)
-Batman v Superman(ft Wonder Woman)


How would u rank them all so far?

 

[CaptainWagner]

Superman killed Zod in the old film wtf but in the new film it's not ok?

Yep. Certain fans can be pretty hypocritical at times.

Why do so many people obsess over no kill rules anyway? Only a handful of heroes have ever explicitly had one in the comics.

 

[TeeKay]

Superman being one them.

 

[Erzengel]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/how-many-people-has-captain-america-killed-in-the-marve-1772944715
How Many People Has Captain America Killed in the Marvel Movies?

14,089 apparently.

I don't agree with how they're counted though. Regardless, the lack of a no-kill rule in the Marvel films has been a problem for me for a while. It is a problem in and of itself, and also due to the hypocrites who complained about the Zod death in MoS.

So every time Cap hit someone with his shield that was a death?

 

[CaptainWagner]

Superman being one them.

Personally, I don't remember that, but then again I've never really read many Superman comics. But that still makes the people who chastise Snyder's version for killing while praising Donner VERY hypocritical.

I do agree that it wasn't handled well, though. The effects of him having to kill Zod were never dwelt upon in BvS.

 

[ernesth100]

So every time Cap hit someone with his shield that was a death?

Nah, that would be stupid. He did however kill several people in TFA but that was all soldier work. It was his job back then.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Says the guy who responds with insults. I guess you are never at risk of probation.

If you hate BvS you aren't at risk to be put on probation. Just something I've noticed

 

[The_Manhunter]

Superman/Clarks Portyal - Love it, he is unsure of his place in the world and that is completely reasonable

Batmans/Bruces Portrayal - Love it, this Batman is the definitive Batman on screen so far

Metroplis and Gotham - I liked how they were put next to each other, that was a nice touch. Gotham had a gritty feel while Metropolis, even after the MOS

Lois Lane - I like how aggressive she was in following up on stories, Adams really sold it

Wonder Womans Portrayal - Amazing, I am now a Wonder Woman fan

Lex's Portrayal - Different but very deep and surprisingly intimidating

Doomsdays Portrayal/Origin - I liked it, there was no need to have him come from Krypton directly in this story

The Action Scenes - Amazing, particularly the warehouse chase scene

The Soundtrack - My favorite superhero soundtrack of all time, WW, Batman, and Lex themes were all amazing

The Ending - Love it. Superman inspired Batman and Wonder Woman to form the Justice League and restored their faith in humanity, great stuff

The Pacing - This I thought could have been a tad better, but the movie was so great that it didnt really matter to me

The Team Up Scene - My favorite part of the movie. That trinity money shot!

The Foreshadoing Scenes(The Timetraveler, Batmans Dream, Youtube Vids)- Very interesting and make for a lot of good discussion

 

[The_Manhunter]

Maybe not a smile, but he looks pretty damn smug as he jumps over a truck he could have caught and lets it blow up the building behind him without ever even looking over shoulder to make sure nobody is in danger:

I also appreciate your condescension because I did not get a quote exactly right. I saw the movie only once and don't remember it line by line. But you clearly have seen it multiple times and completely fail at comprehending that the scene is about Superman "giving in" to Lex Luthor's blackmail after his pity party vision of Pa told him that being a hero is for suckers. So, what's your excuse?

1) I am seeing no smug look whatsoever

2) If you are going to criticize something, take the time to at least do it right

3) Giving in? He point blank says to Lois that he is going to go to Gotham to try and convince Batman to help

4) Pa Kent didnt say saving people is for suckers. He said that there was a cost for everything

5) No condescension meant, sorry if it came off that way

 

[Flint Marko]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/how-many-people-has-captain-america-killed-in-the-marve-1772944715
How Many People Has Captain America Killed in the Marvel Movies?

14,089 apparently.

I don't agree with how they're counted though. Regardless, the lack of a no-kill rule in the Marvel films has been a problem for me for a while. It is a problem in and of itself, and also due to the hypocrites who complained about the Zod death in MoS.

You realise Captain America is a soldier right? Who happened to fight in WWII. I don't remember him having a no kill rule in the comics. Neither did Tony, Thor, Widow etc. Daredevil in the MCU has a no kill rule.

Superman having a no kill rule is a defining character trait. I had no problem with him Killing Zod but it was just executed horribly. And then they even ditched that rule in his first scene of Batman v Superman smh.

I heard someone complain about this supposed "double standard" in another thread. All four of the main Avengers have a history of killing numerous people in the comics under the necessary circumstances, so the movies are quite faithful in this regard.

I agree with all of this (I heard that JJ is supposed to be up there with DD too, but I haven't seen it yet). Arrow and Flash are the best live action adaptions that DC has had going for them since Nolan stopped making Batman movies IMO. They are some of the few things that DC has done well in recent years.

Agreed. I'd argue it's the only area in which DC is competitive with Marvel.

If you can be civil and discuss things in a polite, rationale manner you aren't at risk to be put on probation. Just something I've noticed

Fixed that for you.

 

[Mjölnir]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/how-many-people-has-captain-america-killed-in-the-marve-1772944715
How Many People Has Captain America Killed in the Marvel Movies?

14,089 apparently.

I don't agree with how they're counted though. Regardless, the lack of a no-kill rule in the Marvel films has been a problem for me for a while. It is a problem in and of itself, and also due to the hypocrites who complained about the Zod death in MoS.

There's no hypocrisy there whatsoever. Captain America doesn't have a no kill rule that's central to his character in the comics. Superman on the other hand has. That makes it absurd to say that it's hypocritical for someone to want Superman to have his no kill rule from the comics just because he's fine with Captain America not having one (just like in the comics, which is natural since at the core he's a WW2 soldier).

And that's from someone who didn't care much about Superman snapping Zod's neck.

 

[DA_Champion]

So every time Cap hit someone with his shield that was a death?

I did't watch the whole video to be honest, I don't want to debate the minutia of the exact number.

I had already thought about the issue though.

Cap just isn't careful at all, kind of like Superman at the start of BvS.

Maybe those guys didn't die, and just got crippled.

 

[Erzengel]

It's not necessarily minutia because Cap hits a lot of people with his shield. On the Lemurian Star, it seems like he was incapacitating the pirates by knocking them out You can say the one he threw overboard may have died. Not saying he didn't kill people, because in TFA he did have a gun and was using it and in TWS, he did throw a grenade at people.

However others have said, Cap's moral code of killing Nazis/Hydra agents isn't the same as Superman.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Personally, I don't remember that, but then again I've never really read many Superman comics. But that still makes the people who chastise Snyder's version for killing while praising Donner VERY hypocritical.

I do agree that it wasn't handled well, though. The effects of him having to kill Zod were never dwelt upon in BvS.

In the Donner version, Zod lives. He, Ursa, and Non are shown ending up back in The Phantom Zone at the end.

 

[Mjölnir]

It's not necessarily minutia because Cap hits a lot of people with his shield. On the Lemurian Star, it seems like he was incapacitating the pirates by knocking them out You can say the one he threw overboard may have died. Not saying he didn't kill people, because in TFA he did have a gun and was using it and in TWS, he did throw a grenade at people.

However others have said, Cap's moral code of killing Nazis/Hydra agents isn't the same as Superman.

Cap is a soldier so there's logically a difference between combatants and civilians for him. His strong moral side is that he always tries to do what's right and help the innocent.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's not about the source material for me nor is it about technicalities.

It's about the morality of wanton killing. If they murder at will, then I can't buy into them as goody two-shoes superheroes. It works for Blade or the Punisher, but not for Captain America or Superman.

The Zod death didn't bother me by the way, but the way he killed the terrorist in BvS did.

 

[Flint Marko]

It's not about the source material for me nor is it about technicalities.

It's about the morality of wanton killing. If they murder at will, then I can't buy into them as goody two-shoes superheroes. It works for Blade or the Punisher, but not for Captain America or Superman.

The Zod death didn't bother me by the way, but the way he killed the terrorist in BvS did.

What deaths in the MCU have specifically bothered you? The only human deaths I can think of are Cap killing Hydra agents and Iron Man killing AIM agents.
I agree about Zod's death vs the terrorist's death, btw.