The Rise of Skywalker Colin Trevorrow No Longer Directing Star Wars Episode IX

[Adhesive Boy]

When he said he made a “mess” he’s likely being facetious and what he really means is that Last Jedi leaves the SW story in a direction where the status quo is now in uncharted, unpredictable, and unfamiliar territory free from repeating any narrative beats from the past; which would be an interesting challenge for the next director to follow(in a good way). Johnson is trying to underscore just how much his movie fundamentally alters the direction of what many assumed the story was going in, in favor of a fresh new direction that we’ve never seen before.

Snoke is dead, but Kylo Ren is now the Supreme Leader and Resistance numbers have shrunken, and the Galaxy once again was inspired by the myth or legend of Luke Skywalker. These were interesting plot lines that Last Jedi left for its sequel and had they been properly followed up on would’ve made for a film that didn’t feel like a rehash like the final film did of ROTJ.

What's fresh about that? We still have the Empire with one of the dark lords in rule, apart from that Rian made them sniveling babies that no one would ever find threatening of course. We have the Rebellion with their new Luke Skywalker in bad shape just like before in ESB. It's just like before, except that Rian treated all characters like crap and no one is interesting at this point.

I'm also still waiting for someone to explain how the galaxy gets inspired by something they never saw. The resistance is so few so they can't spread any news in any credible fashion, so it will just drown in all the other rumors about the most legendary character in the galaxy.

It's also hilarious that Luke would be inspiring by facing the First Order and Kylo Ren, only to never be seen again. Yeah, the message of that not even a Jedi Master survives them sure sounds inspiring.

Rian should go do a project with Benioff and Weiss.

 

[Marvolo]

What's fresh about that? We still have the Empire with one of the dark lords in rule, apart from that Rian made them sniveling babies that no one would ever find threatening of course. We have the Rebellion with their new Luke Skywalker in bad shape just like before in ESB. It's just like before, except that Rian treated all characters like crap and no one is interesting at this point.

I'm also still waiting for someone to explain how the galaxy gets inspired by something they never saw. The resistance is so few so they can't spread any news in any credible fashion, so it will just drown in all the other rumors about the most legendary character in the galaxy.

It's also hilarious that Luke would be inspiring by facing the First Order and Kylo Ren, only to never be seen again. Yeah, the message of that not even a Jedi Master survives them sure sounds inspiring.

Rian should go do a project with Benioff and Weiss.

No one saw what happened at yavin except for a handful xwing pilots that survived. The story that spread across the galaxy was hear say and rumor. No one saw what happened in cloud city between Luke and Vader. No one knew what happened in DS2 except for Leia and Han and Luke. The events were kept secret. Most of Luke's exploits in his life were secret or hearsay and rumor. And yet in spite of this Luke grew into a myth. He disappeared for 6 years and his legend still remained. The mystery surrounding him increased. Then he shows up out of nowhere, shows incredible power, survives a barrage of turbo laser fire makes the First Order look like fools, and then disappears again. And the Resistance escapes. You really cant understand how that would only increase the mystery and legend of Luke? Immediately after the Resistance survivors escape they could have sent out word on the holonet and then spent the next year spreading the story.

Rian treated the characters like vulnerable humans with flaws and weaknesses. Not archetypes in a typical star wars film. Rian gave Luke a compelling arc and made him struggle for the peace he felt at the end. Rather than having him begin the film as some messianic superhero Jedi without flaws and mistakes.

All the characters in the film make mistakes and they and others pay the price for those mistakes. In spite of that they end the film with hope and the will to fight on. They inspire others. And that's the message of the film. Even in the face of all that adversity and loss the heroes hold on to hope and keep fighting. Its a good message to end the film with. Just like Rey being anobody and determining who she is and will be on her own not based on some bloodline is a good message.

And in Kylo's case, he ends the film with all the power and a throne, but he is more alone than ever.

 

[Spider-Fan]

What's fresh about that? We still have the Empire with one of the dark lords in rule, apart from that Rian made them sniveling babies that no one would ever find threatening of course. We have the Rebellion with their new Luke Skywalker in bad shape just like before in ESB. It's just like before, except that Rian treated all characters like crap and no one is interesting at this point.

I'm also still waiting for someone to explain how the galaxy gets inspired by something they never saw. The resistance is so few so they can't spread any news in any credible fashion, so it will just drown in all the other rumors about the most legendary character in the galaxy.

It's also hilarious that Luke would be inspiring by facing the First Order and Kylo Ren, only to never be seen again. Yeah, the message of that not even a Jedi Master survives them sure sounds inspiring.

Rian should go do a project with Benioff and Weiss.

An act of defiance does not require one to survive or anything like that in order to be considered heroic. How many stories do you hear of people who just stood up to something like the Nazis or some large army or some group of people and it caused a revolution? Luke Skywalker not walking away from that confrontation doesn't make what he did any less heroic. There are plenty of real life examples to draw from that prove this.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

No one saw what happened at yavin except for a handful xwing pilots that survived. The story that spread across the galaxy was hear say and rumor. No one saw what happened in cloud city between Luke and Vader. No one knew what happened in DS2 except for Leia and Han and Luke. The events were kept secret. Most of Luke's exploits in his life were secret or hearsay and rumor. And yet in spite of this Luke grew into a myth. He disappeared for 6 years and his legend still remained. The mystery surrounding him increased. Then he shows up out of nowhere, shows incredible power, survives a barrage of turbo laser fire makes the First Order look like fools, and then disappears again. And the Resistance escapes. You really cant understand how that would only increase the mystery and legend of Luke? Immediately after the Resistance survivors escape they could have sent out word on the holonet and then spent the next year spreading the story.

Rian treated the characters like vulnerable humans with flaws and weaknesses. Not archetypes in a typical star wars film. Rian gave Luke a compelling arc and made him struggle for the peace he felt at the end. Rather than having him begin the film as some messianic superhero Jedi without flaws and mistakes.

All the characters in the film make mistakes and they and others pay the price for those mistakes. In spite of that they end the film with hope and the will to fight on. They inspire others. And that's the message of the film. Even in the face of all that adversity and loss the heroes hold on to hope and keep fighting. Its a good message to end the film with. Just like Rey being anobody and determining who she is and will be on her own not based on some bloodline is a good message.

And in Kylo's case, he ends the film with all the power and a throne, but he is more alone than ever.

I don't get why you list Luke's accomplishments in ANH and ESB since it's never said that he became famous by those. Luke's legend would have been created after RotJ where the winning side that will now create the New Republic can tell of his deeds. That's now a huge and credible source to spread it, and Luke is around to be seen by people and to establish the Jedi again.

What the poster is referring to is that in TLJ there is no one credible around to spread that tale, especially since apparently no one cares about Leia anymore for some reason. It will be just like any other rumor about the Jedi that just vanished, and there will be tons of rumors spread about such a person. There is an obvious basic logic behind how information is spread and received.

I understand even less why you talk about characters without flaws and mistakes since Luke in the OT is plenty flawed and makes several mistakes, so that's nothing new whatsoever and no one is asking for a perfect character. It's rather quite obvious that plenty of people think Rey is a bad character because she is too close to perfect, so the notion about the messianic superhero Jedi without flaws and mistakes just sounds like a straw man, which is never a good thing.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

An act of defiance does not require one to survive or anything like that in order to be considered heroic. How many stories do you hear of people who just stood up to something like the Nazis or some large army or some group of people and it caused a revolution? Luke Skywalker not walking away from that confrontation doesn't make what he did any less heroic. There are plenty of real life examples to draw from that prove this.

That poster didn't say it wasn't heroic (although the more heroic thing would have been to show up in person), he said that it wasn't very inspiring. Parallels to our world are severely lacking since we don't have space wizards of incredible power that can alone do things that tons of other people together can't. It should certainly be demoralizing to hear that the legendary Luke Skywalker died facing Kylo Ren.

I'd say that the most functional parallel you can make is to look at how we've seen that armies of the past have lost morale due to the deaths of important people, which happened despite that these people were less important than someone like Luke since they of course couldn't have any direct power that alone would turn the odds.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That poster didn't say it wasn't heroic (although the more heroic thing would have been to show up in person), he said that it wasn't very inspiring. Parallels to our world are severely lacking since we don't have space wizards of incredible power that can alone do things that tons of other people together can't. It should certainly be demoralizing to hear that the legendary Luke Skywalker died facing Kylo Ren.

I'd say that the most functional parallel you can make is to look at how we've seen that armies of the past have lost morale due to the deaths of important people, which happened despite that these people were less important than someone like Luke since they of course couldn't have any direct power that alone would turn the odds.

But we still find inspiration in tales of sacrifice in moral victories, do we not? Today we still make movies like Braveheart which covers such things, correct? So if these are things that we do still in our society today, and mythologies of the past have had such tales of, then why is Luke Skywalker obtaining a moral victory against the First Order not acceptable?
It's a weak argument

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

But we still find inspiration in tales of sacrifice in moral victories, do we not? Today we still make movies like Braveheart which covers such things, correct? So if these are things that we do still in our society today, and mythologies of the past have had such tales of, then why is Luke Skywalker obtaining a moral victory against the First Order not acceptable?
It's a weak argument

William Wallace showed that you can win battles against the English before he died, and he gained his position by actually leading his people in the face of all opposition, so he was already very inspiring to the Scots. The big effect of his death was primarily that he inspired one powerful person in particular. Luke just showed up after having done nothing for the cause before, and was killed right away by Kylo Ren by all appearances. It's just funny to me how that would be inspiring, but somehow no one cares about the Resistance actually blowing up Starkiller Base (which you actually can verify that it happened). Now that is something to be inspired by, but still Rian chose to write it as that the First Order immediately got control over the entire galaxy after blowing up one system, and no one rises up despite that the FO showed great weakness by immediately suffering the loss of that planet killing capacity to the tiny Resistance.

Why is it more inspiring that the superhuman Jedi Master faces evil and dies, than it is when normal people show that even when just a few of them rise up they can actually strike a severe blow to the powerful enemy? Even when it comes to personal sacrifice I'd say Holdo was a way bigger hero in the end than Luke when she sacrificed herself to actually destroy a big part of the opposing fleet.

So I'd say that the weak argument is to support the notion that the space wizard failing, despite that no one can do what he does anyway, is inspiring but ordinary people showing that you don't need to be a space wizard to defeat the enemy aren't.

 

[Spider-Fan]

William Wallace showed that you can win battles against the English before he died, and he gained his position by actually leading his people in the face of all opposition, so he was already very inspiring to the Scots. The big effect of his death was primarily that he inspired one powerful person in particular. Luke just showed up after having done nothing for the cause before, and was killed right away by Kylo Ren by all appearances. It's just funny to me how that would be inspiring, but somehow no one cares about the Resistance actually blowing up Starkiller Base (which you actually can verify that it happened). Now that is something to be inspired by, but still Rian chose to write it as that the First Order immediately got control over the entire galaxy after blowing up one system, and no one rises up despite that the FO showed great weakness by immediately suffering the loss of that planet killing capacity to the tiny Resistance.

Why is it more inspiring that the superhuman Jedi Master faces evil and dies, than it is when normal people show that even when just a few of them rise up they can actually strike a severe blow to the powerful enemy? Even when it comes to personal sacrifice I'd say Holdo was a way bigger hero in the end than Luke when she sacrificed herself to actually destroy a big part of the opposing fleet.

So I'd say that the weak argument is to support the notion that the space wizard failing, despite that no one can do what he does anyway, is inspiring but ordinary people showing that you don't need to be a space wizard to defeat the enemy aren't.

As per Star Wars basically forever, the Jedi are deified. We have real world Heroes the go unnoticed the do real heroic things, but Brett Favre throwing four touchdown passes a couple days after his dad dies is something that inspired more people than many real-world sacrifices in our world. So this very thing happens in our world, so why is somehow the Star Wars Universe exempt from doing something similar?

Also, JJ Abrams wrote the world basically being taken over by the First Order in his first movie. That's a Rian Johnson inherited problem and not a Ryan Johnson created problem. Also, the entire struggle in the previous movie hinged on a map just to find this great hero Luke Skywalker. Who the Resistance themselves things can win the battle for them. So the previous movie already deified Luke Skywalker. He's a celebrity. So again I find this argument very faulty.

 

[Brother Jack]

Also, JJ Abrams wrote the world basically being taken over by the First Order in his first movie. That's a Rian Johnson inherited problem and not a Ryan Johnson created problem. Also, the entire struggle in the previous movie hinged on a map just to find this great hero Luke Skywalker. Who the Resistance themselves things can win the battle for them. So the previous movie already deified Luke Skywalker. He's a celebrity. So again I find this argument very faulty.

Abrams may have set it up, but Johnson did not have to start his film off with "The First Order reigns". There was an opportunity to do something more even-keel with the power vaccuum left with the New Republic's destruction in TFA, where the Resistance and the FO are battling more or less as equals, but Johnson wanted to tell an underdog story where the heroes are on the run and at their backs. That might've been the more dramatically compelling direction for it, but it wasn't the only way it could've gone.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Abrams may have set it up, but Johnson did not have to start his film off with "The First Order reigns". There was an opportunity to do something more even-keel with the power vaccuum left with the New Republic's destruction in TFA, where the Resistance and the FO are battling more or less as equals, but Johnson wanted to tell an underdog story where the heroes are on the run and at their backs. That might've been the more dramatically compelling direction for it, but it wasn't the only way it could've gone.

Okay, which way is it because I'm confused? Is Rian Johnson supposed to follow up on everything JJ Abrams set up, or is he supposed to go do his own thing? It feels like a contradictory criticism of Rian Johnson here for him actually following up on something JJ set up.

Or do we just want to find reasons to bash Rian Johnson just because? It seems more like that's what people really want

 

[Frodo]

At the end of the day, the blame falls on Lucasfilm and Disney as far as I'm concerned.

They hired the filmmakers to make the film's that they wanted made, basically irrespective as to whether or not the three stories geld together in a cohesive way in a narrative sense.

With TFA , they wanted a retro throwback film which passed the torch to the next generation.

With TLJ they wanted something different that subverted expectations and took the story in a new direction.

With TROS, they wanted a fan service,popcorn flick that would please the masses.

In my book Abrams and Johnson delivered on what the studios wanted. The debates about whether there were outlines, whether Johnson should have done this, or Abrams should have done that, are gravy when it comes down to it.

They're interesting when comes to determining how these films came to be, but ultimately,Disney and Lucasfilm were not passive bystanders to filmmakers run a muck.

At the end of the day, these are the films that Lucasfilm/Disney wanted, and they've been billion dollar winners at the Box Office.

So the trilogy is a mixed bag.

The films have been hugely successful, yet divided the fanbase.
They've made stars out of the leads , yet some of their characters have become the most polarizing in the SW film canon.
They've had some of the best critical reviews TFA and TLJ ,and the worst TROS.
Disney has been given the credit of "saving " SW and the blame of "destroying" SW over a period of 4 years.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

As per Star Wars basically forever, the Jedi are deified. We have real world Heroes the go unnoticed the do real heroic things, but Brett Favre throwing four touchdown passes a couple days after his dad dies is something that inspired more people than many real-world sacrifices in our world. So this very thing happens in our world, so why is somehow the Star Wars Universe exempt from doing something similar?

Also, JJ Abrams wrote the world basically being taken over by the First Order in his first movie. That's a Rian Johnson inherited problem and not a Ryan Johnson created problem. Also, the entire struggle in the previous movie hinged on a map just to find this great hero Luke Skywalker. Who the Resistance themselves things can win the battle for them. So the previous movie already deified Luke Skywalker. He's a celebrity. So again I find this argument very faulty.

Because what Luke did didn't amount to much at all. The biggest thing coming out of that incident is that Kylo Ren was powerful enough to kill him one on one. Blowing up Starkiller Base is an extremely huge feat though, and that is something that actually shows that the First Order can be defeated, yet no one seems to care and just roll over for some reason. And that's despite that blowing up the base could actually be seen by the galaxy, while spreading the word of Luke would just be an unconfirmed rumor.

The First Order did by no means take over the entire galaxy in TFA. They set their plan in motion and they pretty much expected everyone to bow down to the threat of Starkiller Base, which was a logical expectation until it was destroyed by small force of opposition. How exactly do they reign over the galaxy from blowing up one system? It's like someone bombing one important city, without the capability of doing it again, and somehow they instantly rule the Earth.

They just try to repeat the Empire vs the Rebellion, but the important difference is that the Empire already had stable control over the galaxy when they finished creating the Death Star. Destroying that station was big, but it didn't change that the Empire already had all the force needed to have ruled the galaxy for two decades. The Death Star was just a big, planet killing cherry on top.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Because what Luke did didn't amount to much at all. The biggest thing coming out of that incident is that Kylo Ren was powerful enough to kill him one on one. Blowing up Starkiller Base is an extremely huge feat though, and that is something that actually shows that the First Order can be defeated, yet no one seems to care and just roll over for some reason. And that's despite that blowing up the base could actually be seen by the galaxy, while spreading the word of Luke would just be an unconfirmed rumor.

Kylo didn't kill Luke. The exertion from force projecting did. I don't see why this story spreading is some huge problem. Small story spread through our culture with few witnesses all the time. And we don't live in a world with Wizards and for sensitive people who can see things that other people can't. This feels like a nitpick to me. As for why the destruction of Starkiller base didn't result in a movement like Luke did, honestly it's because the movie is not about that. It's about Luke lighting the spark of the resistance. That's the movie.

The First Order did by no means take over the entire galaxy in TFA. They set their plan in motion and they pretty much expected everyone to bow down to the threat of Starkiller Base, which was a logical expectation until it was destroyed by small force of opposition. How exactly do they reign over the galaxy from blowing up one system? It's like someone bombing one important city, without the capability of doing it again, and somehow they instantly rule the Earth.

Did we miss the part where they destroyed the entire New Republic? Who do you think took over the Galaxy when the new Republic was gone? So yes, that movie did establish the First Order is in power.

 

[Brother Jack]

Okay, which way is it because I'm confused? Is Rian Johnson supposed to follow up on everything JJ Abrams set up, or is he supposed to go do his own thing? It feels like a contradictory criticism of Rian Johnson here for him actually following up on something JJ set up.

Or do we just want to find reasons to bash Rian Johnson just because? It seems more like that's what people really want

I'm not bashing Johnson, nor am I really criticizing him. I'm also not defending Abrams' decision to nuke the New Republic and provide very little political context to the power dynamics of the galaxy, even though I understand his reticence to incorporate any kind of political content in the film after the prequels. I'm only saying that repeating the Empire vs. Rebels was not necessary, and both Abrams and Johnson are responsible for making it that way.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm not bashing Johnson, nor am I really criticizing him. I'm also not defending Abrams' decision to nuke the New Republic and provide very little political context to the power dynamics of the galaxy, even though I understand his reticence to incorporate any kind of political content in the film after the prequels. I'm only saying that repeating the Empire vs. Rebels was not necessary, and both Abrams and Johnson are responsible for making it that way.

Actually, I wholeheartedly agree with that. But I see that more as an Episode 7 problem and less Episode 8 problem. Because Episode 7 created that problem.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Kylo didn't kill Luke. The exertion from force projecting did. I don't see why this story spreading is some huge problem. Small story spread through our culture with few witnesses all the time. And we don't live in a world with Wizards and for sensitive people who can see things that other people can't. This feels like a nitpick to me. As for why the destruction of Starkiller base didn't result in a movement like Luke did, honestly it's because the movie is not about that. It's about Luke lighting the spark of the resistance. That's the movie.



Did we miss the part where they destroyed the entire New Republic? Who do you think took over the Galaxy when the new Republic was gone? So yes, that movie did establish the First Order is in power.

No one knows what killed Luke so my point was that all anyone noticed was him going up against Kylo Ren and died. And if the rumor is spread without saying that he died, people would just ask "ok, so where is he?" and even though that might have believed would eventually wave it off as Luke would never be seen again. Small stories spread, but the point is that this one is of the kind of saying that Elvis still lives. Entirely unverifiable, Luke never shows up anywhere else, etc, and it's spread by a group of people that desperately wants help.

If it is about Luke lighting the spark of the resistance it's worse than I've said this far. If you make a film about a specific thing and you don't manage to write it better than that, then it's really bad. It's a perfect case of that you can't just say whatever you want when telling a story, you have to make it make sense in the fiction.

Starkiller Base didn't destroy the entire New Republic, it destroyed one single system where the elected leaders were. The New Republic would have hundreds, if not thousands of member systems, and each of them would at least still function on their own, even if they of course don't have time to establish a new joint government in one single day. But at the same time it would take far longer to actually take control over all these systems by conventional force, which the First Order would have to do since they no longer have a super weapon. Canon also states that the New Republic didn't have a centralized military, so each system would still have their armed forces to defend themselves with.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No one knows what killed Luke so my point was that all anyone noticed was him going up against Kylo Ren and died. And if the rumor is spread without saying that he died, people would just ask "ok, so where is he?" and even though that might have believed would eventually wave it off as Luke would never be seen again. Small stories spread, but the point is that this one is of the kind of saying that Elvis still lives. Entirely unverifiable, Luke never shows up anywhere else, etc, and it's spread by a group of people that desperately wants help.

If it is about Luke lighting the spark of the resistance it's worse than I've said this far. If you make a film about a specific thing and you don't manage to write it better than that, then it's really bad. It's a perfect case of that you can't just say whatever you want when telling a story, you have to make it make sense in the fiction.

Starkiller Base didn't destroy the entire New Republic, it destroyed one single system where the elected leaders were. The New Republic would have hundreds, if not thousands of member systems, and each of them would at least still function on their own, even if they of course don't have time to establish a new joint government in one single day. But at the same time it would take far longer to actually take control over all these systems by conventional force, which the First Order would have to do since they no longer have a super weapon. Canon also states that the New Republic didn't have a centralized military, so each system would still have their armed forces to defend themselves with.

Not true. Any two happens when you destroy the existing Administration. If you destroyed all the elected officials at once, then that would mean that your entire system of government is basically dismantled. Thus, you're no longer in power. That is how every government coup in history ever has ever worked. So I think it's perfectly logical to draw the conclusion that they were in power at the end of the movie.

Ask for your points on Luke, we just have an inherent disagreement about whether or not it works within the context of the story. You're operating under the assumption that in the world of Star Wars it wouldn't, and I see nothing wrong with the way it was portrayed. So I guess different strokes for different folks in this case. Everything perfectly logical in the movie and fits perfectly with in the world of Star Wars as I see it. These points are just nitpicks I could apply to logic in any movie. Even the OT

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Not true. Any two happens when you destroy the existing Administration. If you destroyed all the elected officials at once, then that would mean that your entire system of government is basically dismantled. Thus, you're no longer in power. That is how every government coup in history ever has ever worked. So I think it's perfectly logical to draw the conclusion that they were in power at the end of the movie.

Ask for your points on Luke, we just have an inherent disagreement about whether or not it works within the context of the story. You're operating under the assumption that in the world of Star Wars it wouldn't, and I see nothing wrong with the way it was portrayed. So I guess different strokes for different folks in this case. Everything perfectly logical in the movie and fits perfectly with in the world of Star Wars as I see it. These points are just nitpicks I could apply to logic in any movie. Even the OT

No, it's only logical that they removed the New Republic's ability to act as a coordinated entity. The First Order meant to take control through fear of absolute destruction by the way of Starkiller Base. They no longer have that, which showed a huge weakness, so it makes no sense that thousands of systems just bow down. So exactly how does the First Order manage to take control over hundreds or thousands of systems in one day?

I think the film has plenty of logical issues, so it's just one of many. I also think the film is bad in general, for a variety of reasons, which just makes issues stand out more. The OT certainly has its issues, but the core is good so then it's possible to overlook some flaws. That we disagree is fine. I don't discuss with the goal to change someone's mind, I do it because it can bring out interesting ideas and different points of view. In the end films aren't that important, even though they can bring a lot of positives.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No, it's only logical that they removed the New Republic's ability to act as a coordinated entity. The First Order meant to take control through fear of absolute destruction by the way of Starkiller Base. They no longer have that, which showed a huge weakness, so it makes no sense that thousands of systems just bow down. So exactly how does the First Order manage to take control over hundreds or thousands of systems in one day?

I think the film has plenty of logical issues, so it's just one of many. I also think the film is bad in general, for a variety of reasons, which just makes issues stand out more. The OT certainly has its issues, but the core is good so then it's possible to overlook some flaws. That we disagree is fine. I don't discuss with the goal to change someone's mind, I do it because it can bring out interesting ideas and different points of view. In the end films aren't that important, even though they can bring a lot of positives.

It stated many times that the First Order even before the discovery of that base was powerful. Granted, the movie does a very poor job of explaining what that means. But I'm also not a huge fan of that movie and feel like JJ heavily dropped the ball and explaining the intergalactic politics adequately in the movie. I don't want it done to the extent of the prequels did it, but I do think more explanation than they provided in the movie was needed.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

It stated many times that the First Order even before the discovery of that base was powerful. Granted, the movie does a very poor job of explaining what that means. But I'm also not a huge fan of that movie and feel like JJ heavily dropped the ball and explaining the intergalactic politics adequately in the movie. I don't want it done to the extent of the prequels did it, but I do think more explanation than they provided in the movie was needed.

Yes, TFA does a terrible job explaining the situation in the galaxy. Still the First Order had been relegated to their corner of the galaxy and hadn't done any offensive yet. To go from that to occupying perhaps thousands of worlds doesn't seem like something they would be able to do in a year, let alone a day.

But in terms of main criticism of what TFA did it's all secondary to that I think it was a monumental mistake to just continue the exact same conflict as the OT had. They should have left RotJ the brilliant victory it was and now have some new threat rise. No victory can end all future evil, but it can at least end the current one.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes, TFA does a terrible job explaining the situation in the galaxy. Still the First Order had been relegated to their corner of the galaxy and hadn't done any offensive yet. To go from that to occupying perhaps thousands of worlds doesn't seem like something they would be able to do in a year, let alone a day.

But in terms of main criticism of what TFA did it's all secondary to that I think it was a monumental mistake to just continue the exact same conflict as the OT had. They should have left RotJ the brilliant victory it was and now have some new threat rise. No victory can end all future evil, but it can at least end the current one.

The reverting back to Rebels vs Empire effectively is a criticism of the new films I agree with. But I really only hold it against TFA. Both TLJ and TROS were stuck with that conflict after the first film framed it that way. So I don't hold it against them for that reason. But it's absolutely a problem I have with the ST.

 

[henzINNIT]

No one knows what killed Luke so my point was that all anyone noticed was him going up against Kylo Ren and died. And if the rumor is spread without saying that he died, people would just ask "ok, so where is he?" and even though that might have believed would eventually wave it off as Luke would never be seen again. Small stories spread, but the point is that this one is of the kind of saying that Elvis still lives. Entirely unverifiable, Luke never shows up anywhere else, etc, and it's spread by a group of people that desperately wants help.

If it is about Luke lighting the spark of the resistance it's worse than I've said this far. If you make a film about a specific thing and you don't manage to write it better than that, then it's really bad. It's a perfect case of that you can't just say whatever you want when telling a story, you have to make it make sense in the fiction.

The primary source of this story would be the Resistance, yes. They would tell the tale of the Jedi buying time for their escape. The proof would be in their survival. As you said, they were desperate for help, doomed, and the galaxy at large knew it and didn't help. Someone must have.

No reason to think they would be the only source though. Word would spread through the First Order itself. Several troops witnessed the event: Luke emerging as if by magic, walking off a barrage of lasers and dueling with Kylo before vanishing again. Your unstable boss just got humiliated at work. You only really need one trooper to 'leak' the story and it gains weight. God knows what Star Wars new outlets are like but they must exist in some form. Are there cameras around? I dunno. It's really not much of a stretch to think this story got out.

People still talk about Elvis now, for no reason, while Luke really did face down an army and vanish unscathed. That is some crazy gossip, speculation would be rampant for a long time. Of course it only needed about a year to circulate and by then Rey would become the next wandering hero. The final scene showed that the story became legend. If you can't believe it was taken seriously by the galaxy at large, perhaps you could accept that the story of Luke Skywalker became a fantasy tale to inspire children.

 

[The Guard]

Yes, TFA does a terrible job explaining the situation in the galaxy. Still the First Order had been relegated to their corner of the galaxy and hadn't done any offensive yet. To go from that to occupying perhaps thousands of worlds doesn't seem like something they would be able to do in a year, let alone a day.

To be fair, none of the movies do a great job explaining the situation in the galaxy. It's long just been sort of nebulous good VS evil. The prequels made the best attempt at it, and many people whined about it.

That's just kind of part of what STAR WARS is, and always has been. And maybe it should move beyond that, and the serial format itself.

 

[henzINNIT]

Star Wars existing in a nebulous 'good vs evil' state is fine but one thing the PT did well was giving us a little more to chew on. Palpatine as this diabolical puppet master, playing everyone against each other and being behind both sides of a massive war, that was great. I think Trevorrow's take exposes just how thirsty we were for a more detailed look at the galaxy. I would have loved Chancellor Hux.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

The primary source of this story would be the Resistance, yes. They would tell the tale of the Jedi buying time for their escape. The proof would be in their survival. As you said, they were desperate for help, doomed, and the galaxy at large knew it and didn't help. Someone must have.

No reason to think they would be the only source though. Word would spread through the First Order itself. Several troops witnessed the event: Luke emerging as if by magic, walking off a barrage of lasers and dueling with Kylo before vanishing again. Your unstable boss just got humiliated at work. You only really need one trooper to 'leak' the story and it gains weight. God knows what Star Wars new outlets are like but they must exist in some form. Are there cameras around? I dunno. It's really not much of a stretch to think this story got out.

People still talk about Elvis now, for no reason, while Luke really did face down an army and vanish unscathed. That is some crazy gossip, speculation would be rampant for a long time. Of course it only needed about a year to circulate and by then Rey would become the next wandering hero. The final scene showed that the story became legend. If you can't believe it was taken seriously by the galaxy at large, perhaps you could accept that the story of Luke Skywalker became a fantasy tale to inspire children.

Buying a little time is in itself a very minor feat compared to what Luke is known for. And why would someone have needed to help them? It's not like the Resistance hasn't been escaping the wrath of the First Order time and time again before.

Regarding the First Order soldiers, in what way would they see their boss being humiliated? They probably crapped their pants when Luke survived the barrage, but then their boss chose to go down and face him alone. That's enough to be incredibly impressed with Kylo. And he didn't just face him, Luke vanished after Kylo put his lightsaber into him, so either Kylo defeated him or Luke fled. Even more cred to Kylo.

How do you know that people talk about Elvis for no reason? I guess you feel that it's unlikely and if someone actually did see him that would just drown in the tons of rumors and false testimonies that are going around. Well, it would be the same for Luke. It would just be another rumor in the bunch, and created by some that are really desperate to get people to join their cause.

As for crazy gossip, I would again point to that the tiny Resistance actually blew up Starkiller Base. Something that could actually be seen. Apparently no one gave a crap about that so I don't see why they would get inspired by a rumor about the great Jedi Master getting off his ass to do one small favor to the Resistance, very late in the game, and then he won't help anymore. I'd say that great deeds that other people can actually follow are more inspiring than smaller deeds only space wizards could do.