Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[POWdER-man]

Iron Man

 

[JewishHobbit]

Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

Iron Man beats Graviton 6-1

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Damien Hellstrom (HARLEKIN) bio

BRACKET 2:

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio

VS.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: PROVIDENCE (Not Populated)

Providence is a fictional island featured in comic books published by Marvel Comics. Providence, located somewhere in the of the South Pacific Ocean, is an artificial island comprised of parts from Cable’s old space station Greymalkin.

Since Providence is built out of a space station from the future, it has an abundance of advanced technology. Most of this technology Cable allows to be freely given out to the world.

• Teleportation Matrix – Providence is equipped with a teleportation matrix that responds to the verbal commands of both Cable and Deadpool. It allows them to be teleported anywhere on Earth, and was once modified to teleport between dimensions as well.

• Skimmer Jets – Self-subsisting, solar-powered vehicles used by Cable when he no longer had the ability to fly of his own accord.

• Fission Waste Processor – Used for processing waste, and presumably an energy supply, this device was shared with Tony Stark.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

[BRACKET 2:

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio

VS.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio

Here we go again.

At the moment I am going to forego listing all of the Scarlet Witch's powers given you have all read them many times.

This is going to be a match of Science vs Magic.

Now what counter is there to magic? More magic but yet none is available to the Black Panther.

Both characters will have perfect knowledge of each other and of the terrain.

Black Panther will attempt to take out the beautiful Scarlet Witch using range but the range can do nothing against her magic that can attack him from much farther.

He cannot avoid anything she does to him. And this match could end up with the Black Panther being transformed permanently into a black cat.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

This is a very interesting match. Black Panther is the last of the "normal" humans in this competition, and along the line he has taken out quite a few foes. I'm afraid he can add the Scarlet Witch to this line of victories. Black Panther's advantage in this match is after all not to be underestimated: the good old preperation time. A good 24 hours to deal with an opponent he already knows the ins and outs on.

And let's be real here, the Black Panther really will know everything there is to know about the Scarlet Witch. His entire purpose in joining the Avengers after all, was to spy on them. Stop and think about that for a second. The Scarlet Witch will know the Black Panther sure, but she comes nowhere near when it comes to the knowledge department. She is not one for preparing while that's pretty much what the Panther lives for.

To cop a quote from Sun Tzu: "If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."

Let's recap for just a moment. Black Panther has multiple resources that the Scarlet Witch doesn't, and the Scarlet Witch isn't exactly known for her preparation skills either. Then there's location, one that the Panther will know about (although he'll have no extensive knowledge of the place), and one the Scarlet Witch most likely wouldn't know. Besides that, Providence is built on technology and science, areas in which Panther greatly excells.

This will be a battle depending on skills and yes, also power:
- Black Panther is stronger, faster and a great deal more agile than the Witch.
- Black Panther is stealth personified. He has evaded foes for hours on end, and there can be no denying that the advantage of surprise is decidedly in the Panther's hands.
- The Scarlet Witch is ultimately susceptible to knock-out gas and similar tricks as anyone else. With 24 hours to prepare, and his own resources at his disposal, the Panther can keep the Witch busy long enough to leap in and end the battle with a quick blow. Similarly, he can just use any number of gases or potions to knock the Witch out and not really come close to her at all.
- The Black Panther has fought magical enemies before and knows the Scarlet Witch in and out, an advantage that she does not have.
- Heck, even in the case of the Witch being able to attack him, he's got vibranium suit to protect him from anything she can really throw at him. Lest we forget, this version of the Witch is ultimately dependant on her surroundings. She needs to affect them before they can affect the Panther. Panther has no such issues.

I'm gonna let you guys mull this over with a final Sun Tzu quote: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

Now what counter is there to magic? More magic but yet none is available to the Black Panther.

A) There is some magic available to him actually (think King Solomon's frogs).
B) Black Panther has met and succesfully fought magic opponents before.
C) One of the Panther's best allies (Brother Voodoo) outclasses the Witch in the magical department, and the two have shared knowledge and information between themselves.

Both characters will have perfect knowledge of each other and of the terrain.

And yet, the Panther will know so much more. The entire reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. He's going to know everything there is to know about the Witch, while she will only know the basics. The same goes for the location. She will know what the basic Avengers files tell her, while he will have done an investigation on the island.

Black Panther will attempt to take out the beautiful Scarlet Witch using range but the range can do nothing against her magic that can attack him from much farther.

She'll have to find him first. He knows faster and a lot more stealthier than her. She's going in blind, and since she's a hero first and foremost, she's not going to blast everything in sight to get to the Panther, which she'll have to do if she wants to find him.

He cannot avoid anything she does to him. And this match could end up with the Black Panther being transformed permanently into a black cat.

Not really. He has all of the advantages, while the Witch really has nothing.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

This is a very interesting match. Black Panther is the last of the "normal" humans in this competition, and along the line he has taken out quite a few foes. I'm afraid he can add the Scarlet Witch to this line of victories. Black Panther's advantage in this match is after all not to be underestimated: the good old preperation time. A good 24 hours to deal with an opponent he already knows the ins and outs on.

The thing is prep time will help her quite a bit as well. She can have spells prepared that can turn him into a cat if she so desires. She can also create a field whereabouts everything he does goes wrong.

And let's be real here, the Black Panther really will know everything there is to know about the Scarlet Witch. His entire purpose in joining the Avengers after all, was to spy on them. Stop and think about that for a second. The Scarlet Witch will know the Black Panther sure, but she comes nowhere near when it comes to the knowledge department. She is not one for preparing while that's pretty much what the Panther lives for.

First off, they will know each other very well and that means there is no more advantage to one or the other. Plus let us not forget that the Scarlet Witch's powers grew over time and while the Black Panther was part of the team they had not yet reached the stage where she was affecting organic matter. And when he rejoinned she was affecting reality which is not the Witch I have (unfortunately).

To cop a quote from Sun Tzu: "If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."

Nice quote, one that I know quite well and studied when in school. In fact, lets take the first part because that is what is happening here. Against superiour forces, evade. Something the Black Panther is truly a master of given his defeat of the Hulk cmad in this event (but never in the comics ), however, magic is something which can look for a target or may not even need one. It can affect areas rather then just people.

Let's recap for just a moment. Black Panther has multiple resources that the Scarlet Witch doesn't, and the Scarlet Witch isn't exactly known for her preparation skills either. Then there's location, one that the Panther will know about (although he'll have no extensive knowledge of the place), and one the Scarlet Witch most likely wouldn't know. Besides that, Providence is built on technology and science, areas in which Panther greatly excells.

Now the Witch has access to the Avenger's database which will have information on Providence as well. They will be on equal footing on that front. He will have no more information then she.

This will be a battle depending on skills and yes, also power:
- Black Panther is stronger, faster and a great deal more agile than the Witch.

Yes he is somewhat stronger but let us not forget he is just peak human meaning the difference is not as great as it was between him and the Hulk.

- Black Panther is stealth personified. He has evaded foes for hours on end, and there can be no denying that the advantage of surprise is decidedly in the Panther's hands.

As I stated before she does not need line of sight for her spells to take affect.

- The Scarlet Witch is ultimately susceptible to knock-out gas and similar tricks as anyone else. With 24 hours to prepare, and his own resources at his disposal, the Panther can keep the Witch busy long enough to leap in and end the battle with a quick blow. Similarly, he can just use any number of gases or potions to knock the Witch out and not really come close to her at all.

She can also deflect any projectile coming at her plus she can simply cause the sleeping gas to blow up in his face which will put him down as surely as anyone else.

I am just noticing the way he is being written here is like Batman with prep time and sounds just as ridiculous. I honestl do not think he should vene be in the contest at this stage. However, here we are and you are assuming that he can keep her busy until he surprises her. The thing is she could just do the same and her keeping him busy could result to a very quick battle.

-- The Black Panther has fought magical enemies before and knows the Scarlet Witch in and out, an advantage that she does not have.

I do not agreas they were on the same team. Plus she even lead the team for awhile. OPf course, she knows the balck panther in and out.

- Heck, even in the case of the Witch being able to attack him, he's got vibranium suit to protect him from anything she can really throw at him. Lest we forget, this version of the Witch is ultimately dependant on her surroundings. She needs to affect them before they can affect the Panther. Panther has no such issues.

First off, vibranium does not protect against magic. So really that armour does him no good whatsoever. Second, this witch can affect organic matter as this was done before Bendis came onto the comics and her reality altering powers which would make this match a foregone conclusion.

She can affect the Panther directly wîthout having to affect all the weaponry and otrher items he may be carrying. All things which are likely to hurt him more then will hurt her.

-I'm gonna let you guys mull this over with a final Sun Tzu quote: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

I like your use of the quotes which can be applied to busines life just as easily as to war.

But they are just as easily applied by the Witch as by T'Challa.

One thing I was looking at the Marvel website where they were rating the different heroes. The official ratings are in blue and T'Challa has the following ratings:

Intelligence - 5/7
Strength - 3/7
Speed - 2/7
Durability - 3/7
Energy Projection - 3/7
Fighting Skills - 5/7

The Witch's were as follows

Intelligence - 6/7
Strength - 2/7
Speed - 3/7
Durability - 2/7
Energy Projection - 7/7
Fighting Skills - 2/7

Apart from the fact there is not much difference between the physical ratings (Marvel offically assumes that the Witch is FASTER then the Panther), Marvel also states that the Witch is more intelligent then T'Challa.

WINNER=SCARLET WITCH

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

A) There is some magic available to him actually (think King Solomon's frogs).
B) Black Panther has met and succesfully fought magic opponents before.
C) One of the Panther's best allies (Brother Voodoo) outclasses the Witch in the magical department, and the two have shared knowledge and information between themselves.

This is what Marvel states about Solomon's forge:

He also fought Kiber the Cruel during a quest for the mystic time-shifting artifacts known as King Solomon's Frogs; these produced an alternate version of T'Challa from a future ten years hence, a merry telepathic Panther with a terminal brain aneurysm.

The magic is no use to him, and also please describe once when he defeated a magic opponent on his own without dying in the process.

na T'Challa has no magic skill for himself nor will he be talking to Voodoo before this battle or I will then suggest That the Scarlet Witch will go see Agatha Harkness and get speed training using her chaos magic to devestating affect against T'Challa. The other thing is they have two very different types of magic given oodoo magic is nothing like Chaos magic. There is no help there.

And yet, the Panther will know so much more. The entire reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. He's going to know everything there is to know about the Witch, while she will only know the basics. The same goes for the location. She will know what the basic Avengers files tell her, while he will have done an investigation on the island.

Adn surprisingly I do not agree. He will not know so much more. How can he? Her powers were evolving all the time plus they are magic based. The Black Panther knows about science, but magic, please....he can bring nothing to the table.

She'll have to find him first. He knows faster and a lot more stealthier than her. She's going in blind, and since she's a hero first and foremost, she's not going to blast everything in sight to get to the Panther, which she'll have to do if she wants to find him.

As I stated before area of affect means she can affect an area without needing line of sight. And there is no reason for her not to blast everything in sight as this area is not populated.

Not really. He has all of the advantages, while the Witch really has nothing.

He has the one advantage of sleeping with Storm.....that is the only one I can think of and it really will not affect his defeat here.

WINNER=SCARLET WITCH

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

The thing is prep time will help her quite a bit as well. She can have spells prepared that can turn him into a cat if she so desires. She can also create a field whereabouts everything he does goes wrong.

When has she ever shown this, exactly? She actually uses magic sparingly in battle, and although she can read up on a few spells, she's not going to be able to apply them without line of sight. She's simply not that good. I'll gladly take this statement back if you can disprove it, but I sorely doubt you can.

First off, they will know each other very well and that means there is no more advantage to one or the other. Plus let us not forget that the Scarlet Witch's powers grew over time and while the Black Panther was part of the team they had not yet reached the stage where she was affecting organic matter. And when he rejoinned she was affecting reality which is not the Witch I have (unfortunately).

The only organic matter she has affected is Wonder Man, who mostly came back through his own willpower. Black Panther returned to the team shortly in vol. 3, first during the Ultron battle and later during the Red Zone arc. By that latter arc, Scarlet Witch's powers had pretty much stopped their evolution in the sense that her next appearance suddenly has her with reality altering powers. And while the Scarlet Witch is smart, she's not in the Panther's league, especially not when it comes to planning.

Nice quote, one that I know quite well and studied when in school. In fact, lets take the first part because that is what is happening here. Against superiour forces, evade. Something the Black Panther is truly a master of given his defeat of the Hulk cmad in this event (but never in the comics ), however, magic is something which can look for a target or may not even need one. It can affect areas rather then just people.

Scarlet Witch isn't going to just randomnly throw magic at things in the hopes of affecting the Panther. Area-wide spells take concentration, especially for someone like Wanda, who isn't on the level of a Dr. Strange, Brother Voodoo or even a Clea. She is still largely dependant on her probability altering powers, which she can hardly use when she can't find the Panther.

Yes he is somewhat stronger but let us not forget he is just peak human meaning the difference is not as great as it was between him and the Hulk.

Just peak human? Little difference? Scarlet Witch is not olympic level. She's a woman (they are naturally weaker physically than men) that's well trained, but is really just above your average human. The difference between an average person and an olympic level athlete (in all physical areas) is gigantic.

As I stated before she does not need line of sight for her spells to take affect.

She does if she wants to hit the Panther with them.

She can also deflect any projectile coming at her plus she can simply cause the sleeping gas to blow up in his face which will put him down as surely as anyone else.

- Not if she is taken by surprise or under barrage by them.
- Beyond the fact the Panther won't be close enough to have the gas blow back towards him, he'll make sure not to be affected by his own resources. After all, this woman alters probabilities, it'd be stupid for Panther not to prepare for his own works to fail.

I am just noticing the way he is being written here is like Batman with prep time and sounds just as ridiculous. I honestl do not think he should vene be in the contest at this stage. However, here we are and you are assuming that he can keep her busy until he surprises her. The thing is she could just do the same and her keeping him busy could result to a very quick battle.

- Essentially, the Panther is like Batman with prep-time, but with even greater resources (Wakanda) and also stronger, faster, more agile and smarter. Although I hate to call him that, he's essentially an über-Batman, Grant Morrison style.
- The Witch can't do the same. As I've pointed out, the advantage of surprise is with the Panther, simply because of the fact that he's A) a master of stealth, B) knows his opponent in and out and C) faster and more agile.

I do not agreas they were on the same team. Plus she even lead the team for awhile. OPf course, she knows the balck panther in and out.

Not really. Not only has the Witch never lead the team while Panther was on the team, she has never shown the dedication to preperation that he has. Also, he was on the team for the express purpose of spying on them, a thought that never even entered the Witch's mind. He's been planning to take out his teammates if need be since he joined this team. The Witch can't say the same.

First off, vibranium does not protect against magic. So really that armour does him no good whatsoever. Second, this witch can affect organic matter as this was done before Bendis came onto the comics and her reality altering powers which would make this match a foregone conclusion.

Again, the resurrection of Wonder Man does not equate with the ability to affect organic matter. Than there's the fact that vibranium will be able to protect him for simple magic blasts, and especially against the environment. After all, that's pretty much the reason for the suit even existing.

She can affect the Panther directly wîthout having to affect all the weaponry and otrher items he may be carrying. All things which are likely to hurt him more then will hurt her.

How, exactly? She hasn't shown the ability to do this at all, and it's certainly not her normal strategy. This is not a Sorceror Supreme, she's simply someone whose good at magic, but she has never actually realized that potential like she could've.

But they are just as easily applied by the Witch as by T'Challa.

Odd. I don't recall Wanda being a master tactician.

One thing I was looking at the Marvel website where they were rating the different heroes. The official ratings are in blue and T'Challa has the following ratings:

Intelligence - 5/7
Strength - 3/7
Speed - 2/7
Durability - 3/7
Energy Projection - 3/7
Fighting Skills - 5/7

The Witch's were as follows

Intelligence - 6/7
Strength - 2/7
Speed - 3/7
Durability - 2/7
Energy Projection - 7/7
Fighting Skills - 2/7

Apart from the fact there is not much difference between the physical ratings (Marvel offically assumes that the Witch is FASTER then the Panther), Marvel also states that the Witch is more intelligent then T'Challa.

Oh, c'mon. This is practically insulting my intelligence. Besides the fact that these "official" ratings have always been bull more or less, they do not accurately reflect the comics at all. I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch is nowhere near the level of a Black Panther or Iron Man. The Witch being faster than the Panther is also, quite simply, impossible. A rating of 3 would make her as fast as Spider-Man. All this while Captain America is rated as being faster than and as strong as Spidey (again, directly contradicting the comics). Take these "official" ratings with a grain of salt.

The magic is no use to him, and also please describe once when he defeated a magic opponent on his own without dying in the process.

- He pretty much beat Mephisto by himself.
- Achebe, an archnemesis of his.
- Lest we forget, the entire Panther cult is ultimately created around magic.

na T'Challa has no magic skill for himself nor will he be talking to Voodoo before this battle or I will then suggest That the Scarlet Witch will go see Agatha Harkness and get speed training using her chaos magic to devestating affect against T'Challa. The other thing is they have two very different types of magic given oodoo magic is nothing like Chaos magic. There is no help there.

I'm not saying he visits Brother Voodoo and they have a talk. Not at all. Heck, that's not even allowed. All I'm saying is that the Panther has a lot of experience with magic thanks to his alliance with Brother Voodoo, and he regularly faced magic in his series written by Priest.

Adn surprisingly I do not agree. He will not know so much more. How can he? Her powers were evolving all the time plus they are magic based. The Black Panther knows about science, but magic, please....he can bring nothing to the table.

- The Panther has loads of experience in dealing with magic.
- He was on the team right before her powers were Bendis/Austen-inized.
- He has been shown preparing for the eventuality of taking down numerous threats, including his friends and allies. I know you don't like this part of his character but it's there and you can't deny it. He monitors everybody he deems a potential threat.

As I stated before area of affect means she can affect an area without needing line of sight. And there is no reason for her not to blast everything in sight as this area is not populated.

- Blasting everything in sight is grossly out of character.
- If she wants to affect the Panther she needs to see him, which she can't.

Now for anyone still doubting the Panther's abilities I kindly point you to this thread, outlining quite a number of feats that the Panther has pulled off. He can defeat the Scarlet Witch, and without too much trouble, I might add.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

When has she ever shown this, exactly? She actually uses magic sparingly in battle, and although she can read up on a few spells, she's not going to be able to apply them without line of sight. She's simply not that good. I'll gladly take this statement back if you can disprove it, but I sorely doubt you can.

I will try and give you a frame of reference from her run in the Busiek comics. I do not have a scanner but I will refer you to the comic as soon as I can.

The only organic matter she has affected is Wonder Man, who mostly came back through his own willpower. Black Panther returned to the team shortly in vol. 3, first during the Ultron battle and later during the Red Zone arc. By that latter arc, Scarlet Witch's powers had pretty much stopped their evolution in the sense that her next appearance suddenly has her with reality altering powers. And while the Scarlet Witch is smart, she's not in the Panther's league, especially not when it comes to planning.

After Wonder man she was causing diseases in others. But shortly thereafter, we get to the reality altering powers which are not allowed in this competition.

regarding intelligence, I would just like to refer everyone to marvel's official ratings which have her as SMARTER then the Black Panther. You can say what you want, but it is the writers at Marvel that give the characters powers and those writers have placed her as more intelligent in the OFFICIAL ratings.

Scarlet Witch isn't going to just randomnly throw magic at things in the hopes of affecting the Panther. Area-wide spells take concentration, especially for someone like Wanda, who isn't on the level of a Dr. Strange, Brother Voodoo or even a Clea. She is still largely dependant on her probability altering powers, which she can hardly use when she can't find the Panther.

24 hours prep time means she can land with an area of affect spell on the go. It does take concentration but the prep time affords her all the time she needs to prepare the spells. (And Clea is more powerful then Brother Voodoo)

Just peak human? Little difference? Scarlet Witch is not olympic level. She's a woman (they are naturally weaker physically than men) that's well trained, but is really just above your average human. The difference between an average person and an olympic level athlete (in all physical areas) is gigantic.

The Scarlet Witch is an active member of the Avengers who has had training by captain Amrica. She is only average maybe in your mind but she is about Olympic level where the comics are concernned. The Avengers are trainned extensively and have had people like Captain America to train them.

She does if she wants to hit the Panther with them.

Area of affect

- Not if she is taken by surprise or under barrage by them.
- Beyond the fact the Panther won't be close enough to have the gas blow back towards him, he'll make sure not to be affected by his own resources. After all, this woman alters probabilities, it'd be stupid for Panther not to prepare for his own works to fail.

Just for you to note he does not have time before the combat to come in and set up gas bombs hoping she will trip them. And essentially if they are around and given her powers there is more of a chance that he will trip himself up.

- Essentially, the Panther is like Batman with prep-time, but with even greater resources (Wakanda) and also stronger, faster, more agile and smarter. Although I hate to call him that, he's essentially an über-Batman, Grant Morrison style.
- The Witch can't do the same. As I've pointed out, the advantage of surprise is with the Panther, simply because of the fact that he's A) a master of stealth, B) knows his opponent in and out and C) faster and more agile.

The Black panther is not Batman which all these battles are being based on.

Not really. Not only has the Witch never lead the team while Panther was on the team, she has never shown the dedication to preperation that he has. Also, he was on the team for the express purpose of spying on them, a thought that never even entered the Witch's mind. He's been planning to take out his teammates if need be since he joined this team. The Witch can't say the same.

He was no longer on the team when she lead it but when he was she was still higher on the totem pole then he. Also, note that he quickly stopped spying on them when he became freinds with them. So really his spying was only at the start and not something he continued with.

Again, the resurrection of Wonder Man does not equate with the ability to affect organic matter. Than there's the fact that vibranium will be able to protect him for simple magic blasts, and especially against the environment. After all, that's pretty much the reason for the suit even existing.

Across Busiek's run, Wanda's powers grew continuously, as she gained the ability to manipulate organic matter and summon Wonder Man back to life.

Next regarding the suit:

This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic.

His vibranium is not going to do any better.

How, exactly? She hasn't shown the ability to do this at all, and it's certainly not her normal strategy. This is not a Sorceror Supreme, she's simply someone whose good at magic, but she has never actually realized that potential like she could've.

She did during Buseik's run. And no she is not at full potential but at full potential she can alter the whole Marvel universe so really even at her skill level the raw power at her disposal makes her one of the most powerful magic users of the Marvel universe.

PLus lets not forget he has no protection against her magic.

Odd. I don't recall Wanda being a master tactician.

And because you do not, that is the final word. She was a leader of the Avengers......whether you like it or not.

Oh, c'mon. This is practically insulting my intelligence. Besides the fact that these "official" ratings have always been bull more or less, they do not accurately reflect the comics at all. I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch is nowhere near the level of a Black Panther or Iron Man. The Witch being faster than the Panther is also, quite simply, impossible. A rating of 3 would make her as fast as Spider-Man. All this while Captain America is rated as being faster than and as strong as Spidey (again, directly contradicting the comics). Take these "official" ratings with a grain of salt.

Those wre Marvel's official ratings, not mine and not yours. They are what they are. (And I had to put up with them when people were throwing them in my face.) I let them speak for theselves. And Spiderman is not rated a three on the website.

- He pretty much beat Mephisto by himself.
- Achebe, an archnemesis of his.
- Lest we forget, the entire Panther cult is ultimately created around magic.

Actually the Black Panter was created from eating a heart shaped herb. And te "defeat" of Mephisto was Mephisto relinquishing his SOUL when he realised the woul was attached to the Black Panther "totem". The Black Panther trying a tactic like that would lose given he would no longer be in providence. And Achebe was very low level.

I'm not saying he visits Brother Voodoo and they have a talk. Not at all. Heck, that's not even allowed. All I'm saying is that the Panther has a lot of experience with magic thanks to his alliance with Brother Voodoo, and he regularly faced magic in his series written by Priest.

Lets put it this way, does having a conversation with a lawyer make you an expert on law. No it does not and a random converstaion which may have happenned over the years is not going to help T'Challa against the Scarlet Witch.

- The Panther has loads of experience in dealing with magic.
- He was on the team right before her powers were Bendis/Austen-inized.
- He has been shown preparing for the eventuality of taking down numerous threats, including his friends and allies. I know you don't like this part of his character but it's there and you can't deny it. He monitors everybody he deems a potential threat.

They are both going to know each other. I will admit to that. But I do not think he knows more about her then she knows about him. Especially, how the hell does he understand how her powers work when the writers themselves do not seem to understand.

- Blasting everything in sight is grossly out of character.
- If she wants to affect the Panther she needs to see him, which she can't.

The thing is she will blast at everything she deems a threat and that means he could get caught out at any moment.

He can defeat the Scarlet Witch, and without too much trouble, I might add.

Again, at the end of the day this is a battle of Science versus magic abetween 2 people who know each other perfectly and will know the place. The Black Panther has no defense against her magic but does have prep time. However, so does she and she was trained in magic by Agatha Harkness.

PLus she is a babe, and Black panther is a man....

WINNER=Scarlet Witch

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

I will try and give you a frame of reference from her run in the Busiek comics. I do not have a scanner but I will refer you to the comic as soon as I can.

Awesome. I've got the entire run.

regarding intelligence, I would just like to refer everyone to marvel's official ratings which have her as SMARTER then the Black Panther. You can say what you want, but it is the writers at Marvel that give the characters powers and those writers have placed her as more intelligent in the OFFICIAL ratings.

- Again, as any Marvel Comics fan should know, those ratings are mostly ridiculous.
- The Scarlet Witch has never shown intelligence on that level. The Black Panther is often compared with Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. The Witch really can't say the same. She has also never actually shown any above average intelligence. The Black Panther has, being able to play an elaborate real-life chess game that only Iron Man could comprehend (see Enemy of The State II, Priest's run).
- You don't know who make the official ratings, and I seriously doubt it's "the writers", seeing as they often differ on opinion. One thing they've never shown to differ on though is Black Panther's level of intelligence, which is far greater.

24 hours prep time means she can land with an area of affect spell on the go. It does take concentration but the prep time affords her all the time she needs to prepare the spells. (And Clea is more powerful then Brother Voodoo)

She can prepare but she still needs to pull them off. As was shown in the Red Zone arc, area wide spells both take great concentration and cause quite a bit of fatigue. Besides that, I'll repeat: The Witch hardly ever uses area spells. It's not a normal strategy for her.

The Scarlet Witch is an active member of the Avengers who has had training by captain Amrica. She is only average maybe in your mind but she is about Olympic level where the comics are concernned. The Avengers are trainned extensively and have had people like Captain America to train them.

This is quite why simply untrue. She has never shown this kind of ability, and she is only capable of being olympic level in one area, whereas the Black Panther is olympic level in all areas. Even if she's as fast as him, he's stronger, more agile etc. Also, lastly, to become an olympic level athlete, one needs to train daily for years and years and for the express purpose of becoming that good. The Scarlet Witch has never been shown on that level.

Just for you to note he does not have time before the combat to come in and set up gas bombs hoping she will trip them. And essentially if they are around and given her powers there is more of a chance that he will trip himself up.

- I know he can't affect the area before the fight, but he'll have things ready. He's also smart enough to plant the traps once he is teleported in and direct her to those traps.
- It's also unlikely he'll trip himself up. Again, he's prepared for her powers.

The Black panther is not Batman which all these battles are being based on.

Of course he's not Batman. He's the Black Panther. I posted a link earlier to a feats thread. I suggest you read it, since you're sorely underestimating the Panther here. He has shown to be on the level of the vaunted prep-time Batman, and to even surpass it. That's kinda the Panther's schtick.

He was no longer on the team when she lead it but when he was she was still higher on the totem pole then he. Also, note that he quickly stopped spying on them when he became freinds with them. So really his spying was only at the start and not something he continued with.

Her "ranking on the totem pole" doesn't really factor into anything. He also never stopped spying at all. I don't know where you got that from, but it's quite untrue. It's exactly that spying and preparation that has allowed him to face such people as Iron Man.

His vibranium is not going to do any better.

That's only because Wanda directly affects Ultron's core. That's something that pertains to Ultron's make-up, not to anything concerning the Panther being able to withstand her magic blasts.

She did during Buseik's run. And no she is not at full potential but at full potential she can alter the whole Marvel universe so really even at her skill level the raw power at her disposal makes her one of the most powerful magic users of the Marvel universe.

Raw power only. She never did much with the magic, even during Busiek's run.

And because you do not, that is the final word. She was a leader of the Avengers......whether you like it or not.

Uhm, no. She was the second in command, for morale purposes. Captain America kept up the part of strategist and tactician, since that's what he was really really good at. The Witch has never shown to be a master tactician on the level of either Cap or the Panther. Again, at least back your arguments up by the comics.

Those wre Marvel's official ratings, not mine and not yours. They are what they are. (And I had to put up with them when people were throwing them in my face.) I let them speak for theselves. And Spiderman is not rated a three on the website.

Uhm, yes, he is. I could post a screenshot, but you can visit the site for yourself. He's rated a three. Also, as we've learned for years now, those ratings often contradict the comics, and the highest authority in this competition are the comics. If you can show me speed on the level of Spidey, feel free to do so, but you can't, so it's moot.

Actually the Black Panter was created from eating a heart shaped herb. And te "defeat" of Mephisto was Mephisto relinquishing his SOUL when he realised the woul was attached to the Black Panther "totem". The Black Panther trying a tactic like that would lose given he would no longer be in providence. And Achebe was very low level.

This is basic Black Panther history, my friend. Where do the herbs and rituals come from? The Black Panther tribe, which has dabbled extensively in magic, as has been shown time and time again. Also, Mephisto was beaten by the Panther thanks to a creative application of science. The encounter you're referring to was their second fight, which had a few external factors that you've left out. Achebe was actually quite powerful.

Lets put it this way, does having a conversation with a lawyer make you an expert on law. No it does not and a random converstaion which may have happenned over the years is not going to help T'Challa against the Scarlet Witch.

Except the Panther has fought alongside Voodoo many times, and has faced magic enemies both solo as well as with the Avengers.

They are both going to know each other. I will admit to that. But I do not think he knows more about her then she knows about him. Especially, how the hell does he understand how her powers work when the writers themselves do not seem to understand.

- You believe he won't know more about her, even though this essentially contradicts the comics? Y'know, the comics in which the Scarlet Witch never shows any interest in preparing for opponents outside of when it was necessary? The comics in which the Panther shows that he does do that? The man has a contigency for Galactus for crying out loud.
- The way her powers work are not that hard. She alters probabilities. If a certain event has a 40% chance of happening, she can alter that it has a 60 or 70% chance of happening. In really small things, she can up it to 100%, but that's rare.

The thing is she will blast at everything she deems a threat and that means he could get caught out at any moment.

Basically ignoring the Scarlet Witch's character?

Again, at the end of the day this is a battle of Science versus magic abetween 2 people who know each other perfectly and will know the place. The Black Panther has no defense against her magic but does have prep time. However, so does she and she was trained in magic by Agatha Harkness.

The Panther has defenses, and most importantly, he has the offensive capabilities to take her out. Things she has little to no defense against. If this is science vs magic, science wins.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Hey Harlekin. I'll try and get a debate up in a couple days. Just to see if you notice the same thing, but I don't see really any times the two have actually been in the same comic. If you see different, let me know. I did read some appearances where Hellstrom did meet some of Marvels regular heroes, mainly Marvel Two-In-One with the Thing and Marvel Team-up with the Torch. Neither involved much fighting between the two. Thing did get possessed and was going to destroy Hellstrom, Hellstrom not wanting to hurt Thing also, but the idiot villian gave up his possession when he had a chance to kill Hellstrom. Basically, we have two different worlds.

 

[Harlekin]

I'm going to try and get up a debate today, but I do concur with your findings. I haven't seen them in an issue together, and if they have been, it is most likely somewhere long before he became the ruler of Hell he is these days. So yeah, there's pretty much no history between them.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

Awesome. I've got the entire run.

Feel free to have a look yourself as well as that may go faster.

- Again, as any Marvel Comics fan should know, those ratings are mostly ridiculous.
- The Scarlet Witch has never shown intelligence on that level. The Black Panther is often compared with Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. The Witch really can't say the same. She has also never actually shown any above average intelligence. The Black Panther has, being able to play an elaborate real-life chess game that only Iron Man could comprehend (see Enemy of The State II, Priest's run).
- You don't know who make the official ratings, and I seriously doubt it's "the writers", seeing as they often differ on opinion. One thing they've never shown to differ on though is Black Panther's level of intelligence, which is far greater.

I know those ratings are not the final saying but I am pointing them it because it is an indication of Marvel's intentions as to the character.

- She can prepare but she still needs to pull them off. As was shown in the Red Zone arc, area wide spells both take great concentration and cause quite a bit of fatigue. Besides that, I'll repeat: The Witch hardly ever uses area spells. It's not a normal strategy for her.

I never said that the AoE spells would be a matter of course just that she can do one devestating one that she has prepared beforehand just as she teleports in. This spell could render the Black Panther inoperable and may put an end to the combat right there. And the scarlet witch can recover from such a spell in a matter of minutes.

This is quite why simply untrue. She has never shown this kind of ability, and she is only capable of being olympic level in one area, whereas the Black Panther is olympic level in all areas. Even if she's as fast as him, he's stronger, more agile etc. Also, lastly, to become an olympic level athlete, one needs to train daily for years and years and for the express purpose of becoming that good. The Scarlet Witch has never been shown on that level.

Ok lets take this logically, you are part of a team that physically fights super-villains. You have Captain America to train you. Don't you think it is pssible that physically you will be quite fit?

- I know he can't affect the area before the fight, but he'll have things ready. He's also smart enough to plant the traps once he is teleported in and direct her to those traps.
- It's also unlikely he'll trip himself up. Again, he's prepared for her powers.

Setting up things takes time. He does not have super speed so do you really think he will have a couple hours in fight by himself to set up traps in which he will then have to lure the Scarlet Witch into. This is not to mention he has to carry all this into the combat area. He does not have a trunk with him.

Of course he's not Batman. He's the Black Panther. I posted a link earlier to a feats thread. I suggest you read it, since you're sorely underestimating the Panther here. He has shown to be on the level of the vaunted prep-time Batman, and to even surpass it. That's kinda the Panther's schtick.

I read those feats and it reminded me why I dislike this character as much as Batman. It is unrealistic within the reality of the comics (I know it sounds ridiculous as a statement but it does reflect my opinion of him. That said, prep time Batman generally had access to the terrain before the battle. And if not, was facing opponents that he could predict what they would do. The Black Panther cannot predict random probabilities not to mention random magic.

Her "ranking on the totem pole" doesn't really factor into anything. He also never stopped spying at all. I don't know where you got that from, but it's quite untrue. It's exactly that spying and preparation that has allowed him to face such people as Iron Man.

Show me in comic where he is still spying. I read on the mervel website that he stopped when the Avengers became his freinds.

And by the way, facing physical foes or foes who have powers based on science is nothing like facing an unpredictable foe whose powers are based on magic.

That's only because Wanda directly affects Ultron's core. That's something that pertains to Ultron's make-up, not to anything concerning the Panther being able to withstand her magic blasts.

My whole point is that power penetrates adamantium. it is likely it will penetrate Vibranium as well.

Raw power only. She never did much with the magic, even during Busiek's run.

She did cause sickness in people you know. And one thingh is there is a probability that the Black panther will get sick given his future self was. The scarlet Witch could cause that probability to become a certainty.

Uhm, no. She was the second in command, for morale purposes. Captain America kept up the part of strategist and tactician, since that's what he was really really good at. The Witch has never shown to be a master tactician on the level of either Cap or the Panther. Again, at least back your arguments up by the comics.

Read it again, for a short period of time she was the leader when CA was indisposed.

Wanda would eventually recover and become the leader of the West Coast Avengers, just as her estranged husband Vision arranged for the group's dissolution

When the West Coast branch of Avengers disbanded due to internal conflict in the overall team, several members formed a new team known as Force Works, and the Scarlet Witch was appointed leader.

With Iron Man severely injured, Thor preoccupied with his alter ego, and Captain America missing, the rest of the team appointed her as Deputy Leader, even though she had been considering leaving the Avengers. Wanda led the Avengers in the Captain's absence, focusing her energies on improving the morale and efficiency of the team. During this period, Wanda began using her powers in new ways, fighting diseases, healing wounds and even creating sickness in her enemies

The Scarlet WItch has been a leader of at least 3 teams.

Uhm, yes, he is. I could post a screenshot, but you can visit the site for yourself. He's rated a three. Also, as we've learned for years now, those ratings often contradict the comics, and the highest authority in this competition are the comics. If you can show me speed on the level of Spidey, feel free to do so, but you can't, so it's moot.

You are right he is. The ratings are what they are.

This is basic Black Panther history, my friend. Where do the herbs and rituals come from? The Black Panther tribe, which has dabbled extensively in magic, as has been shown time and time again. Also, Mephisto was beaten by the Panther thanks to a creative application of science. The encounter you're referring to was their second fight, which had a few external factors that you've left out. Achebe was actually quite powerful.

The Scarlet Witch is a master of the magic of chaos which is in itself unpredictable. You can not prepare for it using science.

And the tribe has but he has never done a spell or shown the proficiency to. And most of his fights against magic users were one because he was not completely alone and he was able to use all of his nations resources, meaning he did not have to carry them with him. It is not the case here.

Except the Panther has fought alongside Voodoo many times, and has faced magic enemies both solo as well as with the Avengers.

Solo.......that is a big word. most of the time he had allies or his nation backing him.

- You believe he won't know more about her, even though this essentially contradicts the comics? Y'know, the comics in which the Scarlet Witch never shows any interest in preparing for opponents outside of when it was necessary? The comics in which the Panther shows that he does do that? The man has a contigency for Galactus for crying out loud.
- The way her powers work are not that hard. She alters probabilities. If a certain event has a 40% chance of happening, she can alter that it has a 60 or 70% chance of happening. In really small things, she can up it to 100%, but that's rare.

Yes that is true he prepares for Galactus. Why the hell would he prepare for the Scralet Witch? It is not logical.

And exactly I know probabilities but their affect can be extremely random and therefore it is unpredictable. And if you cannot predict something you cannot prepare for it.

Basically ignoring the Scarlet Witch's character?

It does not ignore her character given she is in a fight for her life here.

The Panther has defenses, and most importantly, he has the offensive capabilities to take her out. Things she has little to no defense against. If this is science vs magic, science wins.

That is an overwhelming statement and no, science does not win againszt magic because it cannot inherently protect against it because it rarely follows any logical rules. Science is great when you know what the reaction to an action is. It is horrible when the same asction can cause a billion different reactions. A spell of hers can just as easily put him on fire, turn the vibranium to cotton, cause a brain anurism to burst, cause him to get stuck, or ven turn him into an animal (she turned longshot into one).

WINNER=SCARLET WITCH

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

I think we can close off some pieces of this debate by now, so I'll be short in my rebuttal in a few cases.

I never said that the AoE spells would be a matter of course just that she can do one devestating one that she has prepared beforehand just as she teleports in. This spell could render the Black Panther inoperable and may put an end to the combat right there. And the scarlet witch can recover from such a spell in a matter of minutes.

That's not really the Scarlet Witch's style and again I doubt its effectiveness.

Ok lets take this logically, you are part of a team that physically fights super-villains. You have Captain America to train you. Don't you think it is pssible that physically you will be quite fit?

Quite fit /= olympic level. The Avengers are definitely above average, but they don't approach olympic levels.

Setting up things takes time. He does not have super speed so do you really think he will have a couple hours in fight by himself to set up traps in which he will then have to lure the Scarlet Witch into. This is not to mention he has to carry all this into the combat area. He does not have a trunk with him.

- I do think he has quite a bit of time, since Providence is quite a large place, and SW won't be able to find him. The other way around does apply (Panther can track her quite easily with his Kimoyo card). Heck, he could use his Kimoyo card to tap into the Providence systems.
- It's not a lot he has to take with him. Sleeping gas etc. can easily be carried.

I read those feats and it reminded me why I dislike this character as much as Batman. It is unrealistic within the reality of the comics (I know it sounds ridiculous as a statement but it does reflect my opinion of him. That said, prep time Batman generally had access to the terrain before the battle. And if not, was facing opponents that he could predict what they would do. The Black Panther cannot predict random probabilities not to mention random magic.

- I'm sorry you hate BP, but those feats are canon, whether you like it or not, so you can't ignore them.
- And no, preperation time Bats doesn't always have access to the location, but he'll know the location in and out.
- But BP can predict SW's actions. He can't account for the probabilities, but he's smart enough to at least prepare for the fact that some parts of his plan won't work.

Show me in comic where he is still spying. I read on the mervel website that he stopped when the Avengers became his freinds.

It doesn't say that. It says: "He also joined the American-based Avengers to spy on them from within, but soon came to regard them as true friends and staunch allies." It doesn't say a word about not spying. Besides, if he didn't spy on them, he would've been unable to fight Iron Man the way he did in Enemy of the State II (and vice versa really, since Iron Man had an armour to deal with the Panther).

My whole point is that power penetrates adamantium. it is likely it will penetrate Vibranium as well.

It doesn't penetrate the adamantium. Ultron's core is practically visible, and her magic basically goes under the adamantium. That's how I recall it though. That's not every effective on vibranium. Then again, she still needs to be able to hit him, which she won't.

She did cause sickness in people you know. And one thingh is there is a probability that the Black panther will get sick given his future self was. The scarlet Witch could cause that probability to become a certainty.

Wow, didn't know the Witch was ruthless enough to give a dear friend a brain aneurysm. Besides that, he's shown the ability to go on even after suffering from that, and it hasn't been referenced in a good five years now or so.

Read it again, for a short period of time she was the leader when CA was indisposed.

In which she was focused on morale and efficiency. Not much of a tactics person.

The Scarlet WItch has been a leader of at least 3 teams.

All for a very short time, and during which she never really showed any tactical skills.

The Scarlet Witch is a master of the magic of chaos which is in itself unpredictable. You can not prepare for it using science.

You can't prepare for its effects, but you can prepare for the use of it. That means making sure she can't hit you.

And the tribe has but he has never done a spell or shown the proficiency to. And most of his fights against magic users were one because he was not completely alone and he was able to use all of his nations resources, meaning he did not have to carry them with him. It is not the case here.

"All of his nations' resources"? Not really. He did use his resources to beat Mephisto, but it's rarely that BP needs to take something extra into battle that he doesn't already have. Of course, if we really want to get into that, he can take along his magic armour and the ebony blade that he acquired in Hudlin's run.

Solo.......that is a big word. most of the time he had allies or his nation backing him.

Not really. Did you read Priest's run?

Yes that is true he prepares for Galactus. Why the hell would he prepare for the Scralet Witch? It is not logical.

The same reason he prepares for Iron Man. They could go rogue (as the Witch did). In that manner, he's really quite similar to Batman.

It does not ignore her character given she is in a fight for her life here.

It's not a fight for her life. They don't need to kill each other, so there's no need for this type of behaviour.

That is an overwhelming statement and no, science does not win againszt magic because it cannot inherently protect against it because it rarely follows any logical rules. Science is great when you know what the reaction to an action is. It is horrible when the same asction can cause a billion different reactions. A spell of hers can just as easily put him on fire, turn the vibranium to cotton, cause a brain anurism to burst, cause him to get stuck, or ven turn him into an animal (she turned longshot into one).

Magic is ultimately a form of science. It has precise rules and rituals. It has set effects 90% of the time. Now, her effects are not entirely unpredictable. When firing her hex bolts, she is aiming for a certain effect. She's going to affect one bit of probability, so really, there's not a billion different possibilities, since she does have some control over it.

I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch has simply met the end of the road here. She won't be able to prepare for BP like he will for her, and she won't able to deal with his physical and technological superiority. Although my opponent would gladly erase all BP feats that he doesn't like, they did happen. The Black Panther can and would beat the Scarlet Witch.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

I think we can close off some pieces of this debate by now, so I'll be short in my rebuttal in a few cases.

I appreciate that and will try to do the same thing.

That's not really the Scarlet Witch's style and again I doubt its effectiveness.

It is her style when faced with a tough opponent who can use stealth.

Quite fit /= olympic level. The Avengers are definitely above average, but they don't approach olympic levels.

That is true but exactly how fit she is really a unknown given what she has survived in the past.

- I do think he has quite a bit of time, since Providence is quite a large place, and SW won't be able to find him. The other way around does apply (Panther can track her quite easily with his Kimoyo card). Heck, he could use his Kimoyo card to tap into the Providence systems.
- It's not a lot he has to take with him. Sleeping gas etc. can easily be carried.

If he is in great pain because of one of her spells then really there is not much he will be able to do. Yes he can find her which means she can also find him. She has the Avenger's resources at hand.

- I'm sorry you hate BP, but those feats are canon, whether you like it or not, so you can't ignore them.
- And no, preperation time Bats doesn't always have access to the location, but he'll know the location in and out.
- But BP can predict SW's actions. He can't account for the probabilities, but he's smart enough to at least prepare for the fact that some parts of his plan won't work.

He cannot predict any of what the Scarlet Witch could do to him because her effects are as varied as transmutation, instant combustion, or even the ceiling falling on his head.

Though her powers resemble Telekinesis, her probability-altering powers are more than enough to allow her to transform energy around her into "energy bolts", or even to grant Wanda short flight capability.(Avengers #152) Although her hexes can cause objects to suddenly move or change course, they do not have the ability to "hold on" to objects as a telekinetic might. Ultimately, the hexes are not under the Witch's direct control, although she can influence the nature of their effects with great concentration and effort. This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic.

This is a small sample of her powers. She could cause equipment to fall down on him and imprison him, or a door to shut on his face. There is no way he can predict this for eveything surrounding him has the potential to cause him harm or hinder him.

It doesn't say that. It says: "He also joined the American-based Avengers to spy on them from within, but soon came to regard them as true friends and staunch allies." It doesn't say a word about not spying. Besides, if he didn't spy on them, he would've been unable to fight Iron Man the way he did in Enemy of the State II (and vice versa really, since Iron Man had an armour to deal with the Panther).

You are inferring that he continued to spy, I am inferring that he did not.

It doesn't penetrate the adamantium. Ultron's core is practically visible, and her magic basically goes under the adamantium. That's how I recall it though. That's not every effective on vibranium. Then again, she still needs to be able to hit him, which she won't.

I will repeat a sentence for you:

This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic.

Vibranium will not repel her magic either.

Wow, didn't know the Witch was ruthless enough to give a dear friend a brain aneurysm. Besides that, he's shown the ability to go on even after suffering from that, and it hasn't been referenced in a good five years now or so.

Since when was the Scarlet Witch a dear friend of the Black Panther? And you do realise that she could give him one which would make him unable to walk or even move his limbs given it has burst. And the aneurysm at first caused him illusions and bouts of insanity, which would throw his whole prep time out the window.

In which she was focused on morale and efficiency. Not much of a tactics person.

Being efficient is being effective without wasting time or effort or expense. Tactics are just one of the things it is necessary to implement for a team to be efficient.

All for a very short time, and during which she never really showed any tactical skills.

You are basing that on what? She is chosen to lead a team of the mightiest super heroes (not that I think they are the mightiest) but according to you she has no tactical skills so really what you are saying is the Avengers are a bunch of idots who choose someone who could not lead them in the field. It seems unlikely to me.

You can't prepare for its effects, but you can prepare for the use of it. That means making sure she can't hit you.

The thing is it can affect anything she aims it and there is no way he can outrun energy bolts.

"All of his nations' resources"? Not really. He did use his resources to beat Mephisto, but it's rarely that BP needs to take something extra into battle that he doesn't already have. Of course, if we really want to get into that, he can take along his magic armour and the ebony blade that he acquired in Hudlin's run.

You know he is not doing that. First off, I am not quite sure that he had the blade when the CoM started and second off he has used it I think once. The other items are not his ususal equipment and it would be strange that he used thim. And the magic armour would make him more vulnerable to every other type of attack which included equipment falling on him.

The same reason he prepares for Iron Man. They could go rogue (as the Witch did). In that manner, he's really quite similar to Batman.

Batman has a very dark mind whereas the Black Panther does not have the same psyche.

It's not a fight for her life. They don't need to kill each other, so there's no need for this type of behaviour.

For all she knows, it is.

Magic is ultimately a form of science. It has precise rules and rituals. It has set effects 90% of the time. Now, her effects are not entirely unpredictable. When firing her hex bolts, she is aiming for a certain effect. She's going to affect one bit of probability, so really, there's not a billion different possibilities, since she does have some control over it.

Yes she does aim for a certain affect but as he is not telepathic he has no idea what it could be. It could be to move a machine or to make it explode. How can he know? He is not in her mind.

I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch has simply met the end of the road here. She won't be able to prepare for BP like he will for her, and she won't able to deal with his physical and technological superiority. Although my opponent would gladly erase all BP feats that he doesn't like, they did happen. The Black Panther can and would beat the Scarlet Witch.

Yes they did using big resources and more then 24 hours prep time. The Scarlet Witch is a magic user with tremendous power and trainned by Agatha Harkness, the Black panther is an elite human with vibranium armour which offers no protection against magic. Not to mention, that you cannot prepare against random effects which could happen anywhere at anytime unless you can see in the future or read a persons mind, none of which the Black panther can do.

WINNER=Scarlet Witch

 

[Phaedrus45]

Iron Man vs. Damien Hellstrom:

Great match-up, and even though I have my favorite, I have no idea how the voters will decide. Some points I want to make about this match, though:

One, knowledge of the other goes to Tony, in my opinion. Damien Hellstrom and Iron Man never fought, it would seem. The Defenders are broken up, so any access to information isn't available to Damien, especially considering he's ruling Hell right now. Meanwhile, The Defenders and Avengers met on a few occasions and members of the Defenders have been on the Avengers. Tony would have information on Damien Hellstrom in Avenger's database, especially considering Hellcat did have a brief appearance with the Avengers following her return from the dead.

Location has to side with Tony, too. Providence was around at the point this version of Iron Man is used, yet not around in Hellstrom's last appearance. (Obviously, we can't use Hellstrom's recent miniseries, which doesn't seem to coincide with his current state, anyway.) Even the bio of Providence shows that Tony would know about Providence and some of it's stuff, as shown here: "Used for processing waste, and presumably an energy supply, this device was shared with Tony Stark." Tony will probably be able to access the security and any weapons that Providence has available.

So, from what I've shown above, Hellstrom's biggest two disadvantages in this match-up is knowledge, of which Tony will have quite a bit more than Damien.

Now, I want to point out two reasons I conceded the match of Damien vs. Tana Nile. I felt that Tana might be able to win the match; but, I knew two things went against her: knowledge and location. She didn't know who Damien was, and I thought because of this voters would already put her at a disadvantage. The location part is because it was populated. Damien would be more dangerous with his minions around him, and satanic worshippers would be around in Hell's Kitchen, in my opinion. This is not the case with either factor in this match. There is nobody around to help Damien in the least bit.

Now, it states Damien has magic powers; but, I haven't seen those much in the Essential Marvel Horror collection I panned through. Mostly, his powers came from his trident. I'm sure he's been upgraded, but I just can't think of him using strong magic, as Loki has, in the past. If he has, I would except my opponents examples.

Tony's flight helps him greatly. I'm not sure how much he'll use it, especially since he'll have access to Providence's defenses and capabilities. But, he can take flight if needed, and he has the power for an airborne assault if needed.

Mainly, Tony will come prepared. Damien Hellstrom will know of Iron Man, I'm sure. (I mean, who wouldn't, huh?) But, access to current information definitely lies in Tony's favor, especially with Damien in Hell currently.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

That is true but exactly how fit she is really a unknown given what she has survived in the past.

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Well, if one is to believe marveldirectory.com: "The Scarlet Witch possesses the normal human strength of a woman of her age, height, and build who engages in moderate regular exercise." That's a far cry from olympic level.

If he is in great pain because of one of her spells then really there is not much he will be able to do. Yes he can find her which means she can also find him. She has the Avenger's resources at hand.

Which Avengers resources are you talking about? Is she going to have a special Black Panther scanner? Besides the fact that BP can easily cloak himself from technological devices, he's the master of stealth. She's not going to be able to find him. This is an integral part of his character, I won't debate it further.

He cannot predict any of what the Scarlet Witch could do to him because her effects are as varied as transmutation, instant combustion, or even the ceiling falling on his head.

Varied but controlled. She's got control over what happens, and he'll know what types of attacks she'll be throwing at him (again, the in the odd scenario that she would even be able to see him).

There is no way he can predict this for eveything surrounding him has the potential to cause him harm or hinder him.

This is actually quite interesting, since it works the other way around. I don't know if you know about the Panther's Kimoyo card, but it has quite a few nifty attributes. One of those attributes is hacking into most known technologies. He'll need a few minutes, but then Providence is his.

You are inferring that he continued to spy, I am inferring that he did not.

Even though I've shown evidence to the contrary? If you still want to ignore this part of his character, feel free to do so, but it's really been the basis of his character since the beginning. Knowing the opponent (even allies) and preparing for them.

I will repeat a sentence for you:

Completely ignoring Ultron's special make-up. She worms her way into it, she doesn't blast through it. That's not the case with a fully clothed Panther. Even then, she won't get a chance to hit him.

Since when was the Scarlet Witch a dear friend of the Black Panther? And you do realise that she could give him one which would make him unable to walk or even move his limbs given it has burst. And the aneurysm at first caused him illusions and bouts of insanity, which would throw his whole prep time out the window.

- They're allies and friends. The "dear" was really to show that she has no reason to give him a brain aneurysm.
- I don't recall illusions, and although it made him act a little more reckless, Panther was struggling with all of this during Enemy of the State II, which hinged completely on the preparation part of his character. He was also quite succesful at that point in time.

Being efficient is being effective without wasting time or effort or expense. Tactics are just one of the things it is necessary to implement for a team to be efficient.

Has she shown or ever stated any tactical prowess? No. Good then. This has been stated for the Panther.

You are basing that on what? She is chosen to lead a team of the mightiest super heroes (not that I think they are the mightiest) but according to you she has no tactical skills so really what you are saying is the Avengers are a bunch of idots who choose someone who could not lead them in the field. It seems unlikely to me.

No, because again, the Witch was mostly a morale keeper. Great leaders are not necessarily the finest tactical minds (see: Storm of the X-Men). Or a simpler example is Superman. Traditionally, he leads the Justice League, but he's going to leave the planning to Batman or the Martian Manhunter.

The thing is it can affect anything she aims it and there is no way he can outrun energy bolts.

Why not, exactly? He's done it before.

You know he is not doing that. First off, I am not quite sure that he had the blade when the CoM started and second off he has used it I think once. The other items are not his ususal equipment and it would be strange that he used thim. And the magic armour would make him more vulnerable to every other type of attack which included equipment falling on him.

Why wouldn't he, exactly? He had the blade before he and Storm got hitched, and that's before/during Civil War. It's in his arsenal together with "a vast collection of magical artifacts" (wikipedia). And "not his usual equipment"? You'd be surprised by all the things the Panther takes with him into combat. He also showed the same manouverability in the magic armor, having to fight vampires.

Batman has a very dark mind whereas the Black Panther does not have the same psyche.

Correct. It's even darker. Seriously, read Priest's run on the book. You'd be surprised by how ****ed up in the head T'Challa really is. Preparation for any and everything is the Panther's schtick, no matter how much you would like to deny it.

For all she knows, it is.

Uhm, no. All she's told is that she has to defeat her opponent, the Black Panther. Characters are allowed to kill if that's in their nature, it's not in the Witch's nature, and she has no reason to use lethal moves.

Yes she does aim for a certain affect but as he is not telepathic he has no idea what it could be. It could be to move a machine or to make it explode. How can he know? He is not in her mind.

- Both things are easily defended against. Vibranium withstands a lot of impact.
- The Panther is a great intellect. He's usually already thinking twenty steps ahead. He knows the Witch and how she uses her powers. He knows she won't do anything too devastating.

Then again, this hinges all on the idea that she could even find the Panther, which I doubt. I've outlined T'Challa's mind enough here I think that by now people understand he's going to be prepared for this, and he'll make sure to be effective and quick. He can gain control of the location, and besides physical superiority, T'Challa is also quite a bit smarter than the Witch. She's outmatched here.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I am not going to even bother with a reply to the past statement because it is starting to get ridiculous so instead I am just going to conclude. One thing if he obtainned the blade during civil war it should not be allowed given that it was an ongoing story line when this competition started and it is not part of his ususal weaponry.


The Scarlet Witch was a leader of teams who has a power that is unpredictable in its nature.

The Black Panther is a peak human with a genius brain envoloped in vibranium.

He has no prediction powers and he cannot travel faster then the speed of light, therefore I would put forward he would not be able to outrun her blasts and the magical blasts would penetrate the vibranium as it penetrated Ultron's adamantium.

It is up to the voters to decide.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

 

[Harlekin]

FINAL COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

He did not obtain the Ebony blade during the Civil War. As I noted, he got it before marrying Storm, and the wedding took place before and during Civil War. That might've been unclear though, I'll grant you that.

As to his ability to dodge her hex bolts: They aren't lightspeed. Otherwise, nobody would be able to evade them. Black Panther has shown great skill and speed in avoiding blasts from all kinds of opponents, and there's no reason to think that the Scarlet Witch's blasts are any faster.

I'd just like to point out that the Panther is superior both physically as well as mentally, that he has the advantages of preperation and location and that via both stealth and his normal defenses he should be able to deal with the Scarlet Witch without too much trouble.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Damion Hellstrom vs Iron Man

I've been dreading this debate since well... forever really. I'm at a crossroads, since I don't easily conceed (and I believe Hellstrom would defeat Iron Man anyway), but I feel kinda sucky with throwing up a debate on the last day. So I figure maybe we could do this without the rebuttals this time around, and just have our opening comments be enough for the voters. I certainly wouldn't mind a debating break (and knowing Phaed, I doubt he minds either). If he feels the need to rebuttle though, he is free to do so.

Let's outline the basics then. Iron Man will have some info on Damion, but not a lot, and certainly not about the scope of his powers. Beyond a using a simply scrying pool, it's highly doubtful that Hellstrom will be able to find any significant information. He's not really the type to prepare extensively as is, so I don't see preperation time affecting either of the two a lot.

Where Iron Man has an advantage is location, since he could arguably control some of its technology. Considering that's mostly defensive technology, I don't see it having much of an effect on the battle itself, although it does grant Iron Man some extra possibilities. This is why I feel it is necessary to recap Damien's powers:

Daimon possesses a Darksoul, the demonic counterpart to a human soul, which physically manifests itself in the inverted pentagram-shaped birthmark on his chest (inverted as a mark of Baphomet). He can project hellfire (a.k.a. soulfire), a fire-like mystic energy capable of causing excruciating pain within living beings through direct stimulation of a person's life force. Soulfire does not physically burn in the sense that true fire does, but it can be perceived by its target as heat if its wielder so wills it. In addition, Daimon can generate true fire. He can project soulfire or true fire through his fingertips. He can also use his powers to heal others from life-threatening injuries and ailments.
He can also teleport by passing through a portal to Hell and emerging back on Earth through another portal. He only utilized this power after his rebirth, and it initially seemed that he was required to use existing portals. Since becoming the Lord of Hell he has been seen to travel across the world to a number of spots, indicating that he may be able to open portals virtually anywhere.

Daimon has above normal intelligence and peak physical abilities (as the Son of Satan) to enhanced human physical abilities (as the Lord of Hell; presumably able to further enhanced by his magical powers).

In the past, Daimon was able to magically change into his demonic costume at will by extending the three middle fingers on each hand in the shape of a trident. He could, however, use his demonic powers without being in costume. Early on after discovering his powers, Daimon was transformed into the Son of Satan at nighttime, much like a werewolf, and his personality was markedly different as well. At that time he would have his wrists bound in a chain of ankhs to keep his Darksoul under control. This phase lasted only a very short time, after which Daimon merged with his Darksoul, and his transformations from that point on merely represented the change in costume.

Daimon once used his powers to travel through time to pre-Cataclysmic Atlantis. Since he did not travel through time more frequently, it was likely exceedingly difficult to accomplish.

Daimon is an expert in demonology, a highly experienced exorcist, and has extensive knowledge of the occult and various mystic rites.

He uses a trident composed of Netheranium, a "psychosensitive" metal found only in his father's realm of Hell, which allows him to focus his hellfire power, increase the magnitude of and the distance across which he can project it, and even fly via projecting a mystical jet of flame. This method of transportation requires great concentration, limiting his speed to 30 mph and his length of time of flight to 30 minutes.
It could also amplify and project other magical energies.
Since becoming the Lord of Hell, Daimon has proven able to create/summon/restore his trident at will.

He also uses a mystic chariot, drawn by a trio of demon-steeds, Amon, Hecate, and Set, for extended journeys. The horses are actually demons and are only kept in control by Daimon's command; left on their own, they will consume any human flesh that gets within their reach. The steeds remain in an extradimensional netherworld until summoned. Their maximum speed is unknown, but their magical powers would presumably allow them to cross any distance almost instantly. They can also travel to other dimensions.

As the Lord of Hell, Daimon's powers are exponentially amplified. He can form magical wards or shields, shatter many magical fields/shields, tear thoughts from the minds of others, slay most beings with a thought, and destroy even demons with a high-ranking in the infernal court. His powers are amplified by the number of people worshipping him, as well as the strength of their worship and presumably by the number of souls inhabiting his particular realm of Hell. One would also assume that his powers are greatest within his own realm of Hell.
Despite his great power, Hellstorm is not invulnerable. A bullet from the magically-empowered Breathing Gun left him lame in his left leg for a period of time. (Harl's note: suggesting that not much else can)

Hellstorm also possesses a number of magical artifacts, such as the Necromanteion (a magical scrying crystal) and the Grimorium Verum (an ancient arcane text).

The most important parts have been bolded. It's instrumental that you remember that this is not the Son of Satan from his days as a Defender. Since usurping his father's role, he's become incredibly powerful, to the point where only certain magical artifacts are capable of hurting him. I'd even suggest that maybe we should keep him out of the competition next time around.

Combined with all of this power is the utter ruthlessness with which he employs it. Iron Man is not a friend of his, and he'll have no problem going for the kill. Iron Man will surely put up a fight, but Hellstrom's amazing amount of power, combined with its versatility makes him a tough opponent to fight, especially someone like Iron Man. Damien's soulfire cuts directly to the soul, and especially someone like Tony Stark feels he has a lot to atone for. Beyond that, his shield will be able to withstand most of what Iron Man can throw of him, and he can protect himself not only via shields but also via portals that he's shown the ability to open wherever he wants.

Damion can match and exceed Iron Man's power. He's on par with the great sorcerers of the Marvel Universe, and if one thing has been shown consistently over the years of Iron Man's career is that he has a particularly hard time dealing with magic. Damion is pretty much demonic magic personified. The Lord of Hell... son of Satan.

WINNER=DAMION HELLSTROM

 

[Phaedrus45]

Sure, I'm willing to let the opening debates suffice.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!