Contest of Marvels II Thread 3

[Iceman]

Opening Comments: CH’VAYRE Vs TIGRA

Ch’vayre is the prelate of Apocalypse from 2,000 years in the future. He is a giant with the power of size-shifting, and makes significant gains in mass and strength every time he grows in size. All gains made are kept permanently. There is therefore no upper bound to his strength. He also has many bionic enhancements. The task set for him in the future by Apocalypse was to train Stryfe for the destruction that he would be undertaking back in the past.

During the prep time period, Tigra will obviously be unable to find information on Ch’vayre who is from the future. On the other hand, Ch’vayre has actually conducted extensive research of the past as part of his preparation for the training of Stryfe and will also have access to the comprehensive records of Apocalypse. He should be able to find out what he needs to know having spent his life planning for events in the past.

From Tigra’s bio:

Tigra possesses superhuman strength and speed. Her stamina, agility and reflexes also far surpass human limits, and her body is more resistant to injury and recovers far more swiftly than a human. However, she is not bullet proof, and her body is not capable of regenerating large portions of damaged tissue.

I guess that Tigra would have the edge in terms of hiding and sneaking around and could ambush Ch’vayre. However if he waits out in the open, this will be a lot more difficult. All he needs to do is play safe and expand in size enough times so that his strength and resistance are at a level that he is effectively invulnerable. He will then be far superior in both areas. Offensively he will have the strength to put Tigra down in close combat but should also prepare (or look to the Avalonians) ranged projectile weapons (which Tigra has proven vulnerable to) using Apoc’s facilities during prep time.



I’m not predicting a particularly easy fight here (in contrast to my other two matches this week) as Tigra would have the edge in terms of speed and senses but Ch’vayre should end up the victor for the reasons given.

WINNER = CH’VAYRE

 

[Iceman]

Rebuttal: Ch'Vayre Vs Tigra

Tigra takes this one pretty easily. Normally I'd make some long debate about every little detail, but I don't think we need one of those kind of arguments for this match-up. Simply put, Tigra has fought tougher with the Avengers and given her experience in comparison to Ch'vayre, she could easily take this one.

Winner= Tigra.

I will accept that Tigra has quality experience from her time with the Avengers but I'm not sure how we can make an effective comparison on who has the bettter experience as most of Ch'vayre's life is undocumented. All we really know about him are the extent of his powers and that he spent his life working for Apocalypse in the future training Stryfe.

 

[Iceman]

Rebuttal: MOONDRAGON Vs VENGEANCE

Firstly, here’s a better summary of some of Moondragon’s powers, (I reference some below although not all will be directly effective in this fight):

Known Powers: Moondragon possesses numerous superhuman powers, having been taught to achieve mastery of several psionic powers by the priests of Shao-Lom. She is a telepath able to "read" the thoughts of others and project her own thoughts into others' minds within an as yet undetermined radius. She can mentally stun or cause pain to other beings. Moondragon can also use her telepathic abilities to control the minds of others, and thus eradicate specific memories, effect personality changes, direct an individual's actions for the duration of her mental "contact," and perform other feats. It is not known how many minds she can infleunce at one time: she once maintained a psychic link with millions on the planet Ba-Banis.

Moondragon also has telekinetic powers, enabling her to levitate herself, other people, and objects. In levitating she uses psionic energy to interact with gravitons (the sub-atomic particles carrying the force of gravity) in such a way as to allow her to resist the force of gravity. She cannot fly, however, but only hover since she has no power of propulsion once she is airborne.

Moondragon can project psionic energy as concussive blasts, capable of killing a human being at twenty feet, or deforming a plate of 2-inch thick steel.

indeed her incredibly powerful attacks are competely nullified by his resistance to non-magical damage. It's a miss-match but you were wrong about which character would have the advantage.

My plan is not for her to attack him with her mind in the sense that you seem to be thinking. Her strength lies in controlling minds. When she controlled the inhabitants of an entire planet (a planet which like earth could have included super humans and demons along with regular citizens), the aim was to create peace to prevent a harsh civil war from destroying the planet rather than attack them in some way.

Vengeance has proven in the past to be vulnerable to his own Hellfire:

Vengeance killed himself, along with the villain Hellgate, by triggering a massive explosion through his Hellfire

If Moondragon can control Vengeance and force him to use it on himself then I’m sure you will agree that the easy victory is hers. The key question remains, can she control the mind of a demon/does a demon even have a mind? I’m not sure if there is a definitive answer but as you have asked me (in some of your later points) I will attempt to answer as best I can.

Can demons be psionically controlled/Do they have minds etc??
What follows is only my opinion but I would contend that if demons have psionic abilities, they can be said to have a mind of some form as the source of these abilities. Blackheart, is one example of a demon with (in this case extremely powerful) psionic abilities. The Hellfire Club have also controlled black demons in the past. Admittedly, their experiences were not too great in the long run as the demons were more powerful than anticipated but my point is that even relatively weak psionics were able to exert control over a demon for a limited amount of time.

Another example (I know how much you love your Iron Man ):

The demon tore into their minds, ripping their consciousnesses from their heads and forcing them into the mind of the other--Stark into Sandhurst, Sandhurst into Stark; all that they had ever known or been was now known to the other. Finally, Stark destroyed the machinery, and the Controller was left paralyzed but conscious, in what appeared to the outside world as a persistent vegetative state. Hooked up to machines, we left him with doctors wanting to pull the plug.

I found these examples without much trouble but can look for and provide more if you remain unconvinced. If demons are capable of messing with minds, they will also be vulnerable to one more powerful that can control them. The real decision is whether Moondragon is psionically powerful enough to breach whatever level of defences Vengeance might have.

Also bear in mind that demons such as Ghost Rider and Vengeance have a human host and are therefore even more vulnerable to powerful psionics than regular demons would be.

1.This was while under the control, and augmented by the dragon. No longer the case so none of this applies to this fight

The dragon influenced her to take people’s freedom and enhanced her powers but it wasn’t the source of her powers and even then it is not entirely conclusive that the effects of the enhancements are completely gone. The enhancement of the dragon is comparable to a mutant taking the kick drug to boost their powers. So instead of being able to control the inhabitants of an entire planet, you could argue that her powers would be downgraded (quite extremely) to only being able to control the inhabitants of an area of say Avalon’s size. The exact effect is something voters will have to decide but controlling a much smaller number of subjects and focusing 90% of her ability on one enemy in particular, should not be beyond her.

The Dragon of the Moon and the Beyonder have each increased the extent of her powers and given her additional psionic powers (ie: enabling her to manipulate molecules) in the past. Whether Moondragon has retained any of these powers is unknown.

Despite the uncertainty, I have taken the pragmatic approach and assumed that she is at a lower power level and any additional powers such as molecule manipulation do not apply in my arguments.

2.What is she going to do get the people tp hit him which will have no effect on him

That would be a foolish and pointless strategy if used alone. She could, however, control them and use them to continually distract him (putting him on the defensive throughout the whole fight) if she chooses but I doubt that it is necessary as she would be better served by going for the direct victory. Also, there will be magic users on Avalon (one in particular springs to mind) that she can control and if Vengeance is vulnerable to them as you claim, he’s in trouble.

3.If the people get in his way he will simply swat them aside or burn them alive causing a stampede in moondragon's direction

Moondragon will be in the air for the duration of the fight so will not be affected by their actions. You have given credence to my point that Vengeance will be forced to act (unlike Moodragon) when Avalonians are sent his way and will therefore be distracted and on the defensive.

4.I say again, can you even control the mind of a vengeance demon. Do they even have what would be traditionally defined as a mind

This is a key area where voters will have to make a decision. To avoid repetition, please refer to the section above where I have answered this.

During prep time she can probe the mind of Vengeance so that she is aware of any tricks he may try such as his penance stare. There will be no physical battle but even if there was, Vengeance would still have no chance against a cosmic being trained in combat by the father of Thanos in Titan since she was a young girl.

1) she's not a cosmic being, drax was human and transformed into his current form as a re-animated corpse. Moondragon is HUMAN

Change “cosmic being” to “being with cosmic awareness and consciousness” if it makes you feel better. Her cosmic awareness is, in fact, so developed that she now teaches and trains others such as Captain Marvel how to use their cosmic awareness more effectively.

2)Vengeance's whereabouts is currently unknown, even with 24 hours she will not be able to find him to scan him

The fact that she can maintain a psychic link with millions of individuals at once illustrates beyond doubt that she will be able to get a lock on Vengeance. She has shown that she doesn't need to be anywhere near those that she is controlling and doesn't need to know of their location before she can make a link with their minds across galactic boundaries.

3)Seriously, read vengeance's bio, she can knock him about all day and it will do NOTHING!

I did read his bio. That’s why I didn’t bother with a longer opening debate.

Also the sentence that you have bolded up begins with the disclaimer that “there will be no physical battle” so I wouldn’t waste too much of your time defending this section at the expense of other more important areas that I suspect cannot be defended as effectively.

In terms of notariety and powers yes he's out of his league, but even THE SENTRY couldn't harm him since only magical attacks effect him.

I’m not aware of this particular story but it sounds like a useful example of Vengeance’s great levels of resistance that you have referred to. The key difference that I see is that the Sentry does not have the ability to control minds, crucial to this fight.

This contest is over before it starts, that's the problem with a random draw, you may come up against the one character you cannot beat in the contest and go out in the first round as a result of this. Condolences man but that's just the way it is...

The only way this contest will be over before it starts is if Moondragon takes control of his mind and ends it without delay. Her sudden mindblasts have taken out Xavier before (see Infinity Crusade). That’s the problem with having only slightly above average characters, you may come up against uber characters in early rounds. Condolences man but that’s just the way it is.

WINNER = MOONDRAGON

 

[Iceman]

Rebuttal: MOONDRAGON Vs VENGEANCE

Ok fairly simple one this. She can't actually harm him. End of story. She's a very powerful psychic, against virtually any opponent in this contest she would dominate but she can't harm him meaning that she can only act defensively, putting the ball in vengeances court.

Pitiful summary. Don’t ever look for work as a strategist buddy.

Read and learn below (and above):

Here's how he's going to whup that slapheads ass:

Originally Posted by moondragon's wiki bio
Powers and abilities

Moondragon has considerable psionic powers, including telepathy, which enables her to read minds and communicate mentally with others, control minds, fire bolts of psionic energy that can stun an opponent (or even render them brain dead), and induce mental illusions in other people. She also has the psychic ability of telekinesis, an ability that lets her move, lift, and manipulate most forms of physical matter using only her thoughts, levitate herself upwards into the air into flight, create shields and barriers of pure psychic force, and fire blasts of concussive psychokinetic energy.
Moondragon is also a highly skilled martial artist and has been taught by the monks of Titan to have complete control over her body functions such as breathing. She also is highly knowledgeable in various scientific disciplines such as biology and genetics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vengeance's wiki bio
Possesses supernatural strength, is immune to non-magical harm, rides a mystical flame cycle that can travel across any surface and attain incredible speeds, can use his Penance Stare which forces those who meet his gaze to experience the pain they have caused others, can project both regular and ethereal flame offensively, has removable shoulder spikes which regenerate. He also wields a bone chain which offers many forms of attack and is extremely sturdy.

1.I say again...SHE CANNOT HARM HIM IN ANY WAY!

No but he can harm himself. Her specialism lies in controlling minds having done so on a galactic scale and kept up the strain for a longer time than nearly all of the universe’s other leading psionics. I have covered these points in the previous post so will not go into depth here.

2.Without the dragon of the moon her powers were significantly reduced. Remember she died and her soul passed into another body sans dragon meaning she is not firing on all cylinders here. Another advantage to vengeance.

I have discussed the influence of the dragon in the previous post. The body that she now inhabits was a clone and having now reached physical maturity, there is no obvious weakness when the two are compared. Even in this new body, she was entrusted with the mind gem by Adam Warlock and safeguards were considered necessary to ensure that she did not exploit its full power.

3. She killed her own father, enslaved a planet, tried to eradicate both the defenders and the avengers while under the influence of the dragon. While these things were not her decision that does not matter as the penance stare is about what you have done (whether under control of another being or not). One look from vengeance and she's going to be a quivering mess rocking back and forth on the floor crying.

The penance stare is one weapon that Vengeance has that I consider may have had some effect in the hands of a more powerful host in the correct circumstances. I’m sure the guilt of some of the mentioned actions would affect her but the stare requires a minimum range to be effective. Nothing we have discussed so far allows Vengeance to get anywhere near close enough to deliver it, especially when you consider that she will also be high up in the air. His chances of making contact and maintaining focus long enough to penetrate all of Mooondragon's defences and psychic barriers are virtually zero.

4.Even if she can create illusions this will not harm him and given that he is essentially a vengeance demon in this form he can go all day whereas moondragon will tire over time.

You are obviously not overly familiar with either character. Even average Titanians (and Moondragon is one of the best) are capable of battling for extremely long periods. Over this length of time, Vengeance will at some point be forced to revert to the form of his human host Badilino and be completely weakened.

The use of illusions is not something I have referred to. It is something she could use to provide yet further distraction to the poor demon but unnecessary in my opinion.

5. With the sheer number of people around getting a lock on vengeance will be tricky (she is not at full power remember) to say the least. He on the other hand can move at ridiculous speeds on any surface on account of his bike, further increasing the difficulty.

She has proven that she can maintain a psychic link with millions across space. Finding one entity within a relatively small area will not prove a problem for her, especially when that entity is a skeleton headed demon on a flaming motorbike. He doesn’t exactly blend in and has what could be described as fairly unique thought patterns that would leave a more obvious signature than average. I have also discussed the likelihood of Moondragon getting a lock on Vengeance in the earlier post so will leave that point here.

I will add that Moondragon on the other hand can blend in perfectly well if she chooses to using psychic barriers and with the help of a very rare magical item [blackout]a wig[/blackout]

6.He can fire flames of both natural and etherial nature, has a bone chain that could essentially be used (for this match at least) as a lasso. He would catch her round the neck and drag her along behind his bike (he's going to be moving so fast that this will happen in SECONDS). No matter how powerful a psychic you are, even charles xavier has to concentrate to use his powers. Try doing that while youre being smashed into a variety of obstacles while travelling at immense speeds, repeatedly smacking your head into the ground etc, while someone is dousing you in flames. Moondragon is not super durable, she will die quite quickly once he starts laying into her.

As previously stated, she doesn’t need to be anywhere near her subject to control their minds. This isn’t a gladiatorial face off on the ground where they are yards from each other. Close range weapons will not come into play. Don’t forget that ignoring the defensive fighting abilities and psychic walls that she has at her disposal, even if she allowed him to get close, she also reserves the power to telekinetically remove him from the field of play or even teleport him away. Oh yeah,......... and she's also not going to be anywhere near the ground.

Any weapons he wields become her weapons when she uses her mind. This will be the key to victory.

7.Can you even psychically control a vengeance demon? Show me an example and I'll accept this point but i've never seen any evidence of it myself.

To avoid repetition, I refer you to my response in the appropriate section of the previous post.

She got a bad draw and could have been a tough opponent for many of my characters but in this match she just doesn't stand a chance.

Strange comment given that Vengeance is rock bottom of your list. t: I don’t see this as a particularly bad draw, but time will tell.

Once more to really hammer the point home. SHE CANNOT HARM HIM IN ANY WAY!

Again to avoid continual repetition, unnecessary reading and the prospect of boring voters, I will say that this has been claimed by yourself numerous times and been addressed and now discussed to death. Remember, there is no need to continually repeat yourself, even in response to repeated questions, if your arguments hold weight.

WINNER = MOONDRAGON

 

[hippy fascist]

Rebuttal: MOONDRAGON Vs VENGEANCE



Pitiful summary. Don’t ever look for work as a strategist buddy.

Read and learn below (and above):



No but he can harm himself. Her specialism lies in controlling minds having done so on a galactic scale and kept up the strain for a longer time than nearly all of the universe’s other leading psionics. I have covered these points in the previous post so will not go into depth here.



I have discussed the influence of the dragon in the previous post. The body that she now inhabits was a clone and having now reached physical maturity, there is no obvious weakness when the two are compared. Even in this new body, she was entrusted with the mind gem by Adam Warlock and safeguards were considered necessary to ensure that she did not exploit its full power.


The penance stare is one weapon that Vengeance has that I consider may have had some effect in the hands of a more powerful host in the correct circumstances. I’m sure the guilt of some of the mentioned actions would affect her but the stare requires a minimum range to be effective. Nothing we have discussed so far allows Vengeance to get anywhere near close enough to deliver it, especially when you consider that she will also be high up in the air. His chances of making contact and maintaining focus long enough to penetrate all of Mooondragon's defences and psychic barriers are virtually zero.
You are obviously not overly familiar with either character. Even average Titanians (and Moondragon is one of the best) are capable of battling for extremely long periods. Over this length of time, Vengeance will at some point be forced to revert to the form of his human host Badilino and be completely weakened.

The use of illusions is not something I have referred to. It is something she could use to provide yet further distraction to the poor demon but unnecessary in my opinion.
She has proven that she can maintain a psychic link with millions across space. Finding one entity within a relatively small area will not prove a problem for her, especially when that entity is a skeleton headed demon on a flaming motorbike. He doesn’t exactly blend in and has what could be described as fairly unique thought patterns that would leave a more obvious signature than average. I have also discussed the likelihood of Moondragon getting a lock on Vengeance in the earlier post so will leave that point here.

I will add that Moondragon on the other hand can blend in perfectly well if she chooses to using psychic barriers and with the help of a very rare magical item [blackout]a wig[/blackout]

As previously stated, she doesn’t need to be anywhere near her subject to control their minds. This isn’t a gladiatorial face off on the ground where they are yards from each other. Close range weapons will not come into play. Don’t forget that ignoring the defensive fighting abilities and psychic walls that she has at her disposal, even if she allowed him to get close, she also reserves the power to telekinetically remove him from the field of play or even teleport him away. Oh yeah,......... and she's also not going to be anywhere near the ground.

Any weapons he wields become her weapons when she uses her mind. This will be the key to victory.

To avoid repetition, I refer you to my response in the appropriate section of the previous post.

Strange comment given that Vengeance is rock bottom of your list. t: I don’t see this as a particularly bad draw, but time will tell.
Again to avoid continual repetition, unnecessary reading and the prospect of boring voters, I will say that this has been claimed by yourself numerous times and been addressed and now discussed to death. Remember, there is no need to continually repeat yourself, even in response to repeated questions, if your arguments hold weight.

WINNER = MOONDRAGON

And she's going to be doing this in the three seconds or so it takes vengeance to reach her and start knocking the crap out of her. Doubtfull.

Again you have failed to prove psionic control over demons. Just because they can dish it out doesn't mean they're victims of it themselves. Besides is it not possible that the "powers" you referred to were actually magic that was mistaken for telepathy by a character grounded in the scientific world such as stark....

Vengeance will tan her ass in this fight before she's had a chance to begin taking control of him. That bike can move faster than a fighter jet. She can't harm him and you have failed to offer any evidence of demon's being psyonically (spelling?) controlled.

WINNER:VENGEANCE!

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting has begun!!!

 

[DarkHellRider]

Tigra
dust
vengence
Mantis-yes murdock may be a mighty man-****e but mantis is physic and could easily not be swayed.

 

[hippy fascist]

Ch'Vayre: Tigra could have won with more of a debate but I/P swayed me
Synch: Powerful though dust is this was just a bad draw...
Vengence: Again YAAAAY ME!
Mantis-Very funny but murdock's magical mangina powers just haven't convinced me...[/quote]

 

[wiegeabo]

Tigra
Vengence
Mantis (It's a damn shame. Matt should get to round two)

(The last one is tough because I'm not sure how they could hurt each other if they both become sand. By the closest of margins...)
Synch

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Moondragon - (The only thing that swayed me over to her side is the fact that Vengance does have a human host, and I think she'd be able to take control of it.)

*Mantis - (For the second season in a row, DD gets the bad luck of the draw.)

*Ch'vayre - (Come on...it's Tigra, after all.)

*Synch

 

[Harlekin]

C'mon, people, are you kidding me? I repeat: Daredevil is awesome. Mantis is not. Learn it, know it, live it

Vengeance
Daredevil (or should I say: Matt Murdock, man****e extraordinaire?)
Ch'vayre
Synch

 

[Harlekin]

Ah, double post hell.

 

[kytrigger]

Mantis
Ch'vayre
Vengeance (really tough to call, but I don't think she could control Vengeance that easily and he would have enough time to get the Penence Stare off at her.)
Synch

 

[Phaedrus45]

Results So Far:

Vengance currently beating Moondragon 5-1
Mantis currently beating Daredevil 5-1
Ch'vayre currently beating Tigra 4-2
Synch currently beating Dust 5-1

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Vengeance
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Synch

 

[Darren Daring]

Vengance
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Synch

 

[Zoken]

Vengance
Mantis
Ch'Vayre
Dust

 

[Phaedrus45]

Results So Far:

Vengance currently beating Moondragon 8-1
Mantis currently beating Daredevil 8-1
Ch'vayre currently beating Tigra 7-2
Synch currently beating Dust 7-2

 

[Midnight Ice]

Vengeance
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Synch

 

[Darthphere]

Vengance
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Synch

 

[Hellstormer]

Vengeance

Mantis

Ch'vayre

Dust

 

[Phaedrus45]

Results So Far:

Vengance currently beating Moondragon 11-1
Mantis currently beating Daredevil 11-1
Ch'vayre currently beating Tigra 10-2
Synch currently beating Dust 9-3

 

[POWdER-man]

Moondragon
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Dust

 

[JewishHobbit]

Vengance
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Synch

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Vengance
Mantis
Ch'vayre
Synch