Contest of Marvels II Thread 3

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

Terrax vs. War Machine:

While War Machine is a totally cool character, this is a slaughter.

Nuh-uh!!!

Terrax isn't one to give an inch in a battle, but go straight for the kill. He's never been one to "***** foot" around.

Rhodes would be able to get information on Terrax; but, all it would do is make him realize how royally *!@# he truly is. Terrax would only know the rules of the game and his location. That would be all he needs, as you'll notice at the end of my argument.

While Terrax would definately go for the kill, he does love a good fight. That's why he would actually search out War Machine instead of just trying to cause an earthquake or something.

Also, I agree that Terrax wouldn't have any info, but it doesn't matter too much since his tactics would be the same either way.

Let's look at each character's powers:

Terrax:

Terrax was apparently born with a limited mental control over rock and earth, which he used to create simple constructs. After his powers were enhanced by Galactus, his ability was enhanced in terms of volume and complexity. He was also awarded superhuman strength and durability. Like all of Galactus's Heralds, he is immune to the vacuum of space. His cosmic-powered axe is magically sharp and can generate waves of force. Originally he could fly through space on his own by riding masses of stone which he levitated, but after taking over a human body (Harmon Furmintz, the creator of Psionex), he needed the additional power of his axe to travel through space.

All true, but what you have failed to mention is that he was stripped of his cosmic powers. He pissed off Galactus one too many times and got it taken away. Also, his axe was destroyed by Sentry so while he does still have the same powers all are DRASTICALLY reduced. (I think the bios said the Power Cosmic made him 100x more powerful, so he is 100x weaker than most of his feats)

War Machine:

AbilitiesNone, Power suit grants:

Superhuman strength

Flight

Energy blasts

Variety of offensive and defensive weapons

Remote drones

Yep pretty much. Alhtough I will add that with the prep time and knowledge of Terrax being a heavy hitter, Rhodes could augment his armor and change the weapons on it to what he thinks would best battle Terrax.

The important thing to note is that Terrax is 1) invulnerable to what Rhodes would hit him with, and 2) Terrax has "mental control over rock and earth" and wouldn't even have to worry about Rhodes. He'd simply use his ability the second he got transported to the Castle and destroy it completely. With Rhodes either trapped or more likely dead within the rubble, this contest would be finished in record time.

First off I don't think that Terrax would use his powers to just level the area. Like I said earlier, he loves a good fight, and this is a great opportunity for one.
Now, just in case, IF he did do this he would have 2 things working against him.

1) This isn't a regular castle. Yes he can manipulate the stone, butI highly doubt it would be that easy for him to level Castle Doom. It is protected by incredible technology and magic, and his powers have been reduced significantly.

2) Even if he could bring down the castle, how on earth would that stop War Machine? His forcefield is as good as Iron Man's, and much more durable than Terrax himself. It could easily withstand falling stone and he could then easily fly out of the rubble. Terrax is more likely to get hurt from this strategy than War Machine.

I could say how Terrax would use his axe and slice Rhodes open like a can opener. I could exclaim how Terrax has been hit with the Power Cosmic and not fallen in the past. But, really, with manipulation of rock and earth, War Machine is simply finished.

He won't have the axe, and IF Terrax did cause earthquakes, a great way to avoid those is flight. It would be a tough battle, but take War Machine's forcefield and flight, and his stealth mode and couple that with his greater array of long distance weapons for long range and his greater strength for short range combat and he takes this.

Winner- War Machine


EDIT: Terrax DOES have his axe for this fight. Disregard any mention of him not having it.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Ok, I talked to JH concerning the match between War Machine and Terrax. What's confusing is that in all the bios I have, including recent ones from the Official Handbook, it claims he still has a level of Power Cosmic and still wields the axe. I let JH know I'd stand by his judgement. Here is what he said:

"I say let him keep it. In the Sentry mini he broke the handle and dropped it before Terrax and tells him to leave the planet... then the scene changed. In my opinion, it's safe to assume Terrax took the axe with him. It should be fine to assume he still has it and can use it."


Before I continue with the match...or if you want to start over...we can. I had some false assumptions about Terrax's powers. He's a really confusing character. So many people have done so many things with him. But, if I understand it correctly, he doesn't have the cosmic powers originally given to him by Galactus, but they were somewhat revived by Doom in his castle. I'm not sure, but it seems like much of these cosmic powers reside in his axe. It just isn't anywhere on the level of the Silver Surfer. Since all of his bios state that he's given these powers back through his power suit and he still possesses his axe, it would be assumed to be true. (But, you are correct that he doesn't have to range of power when he was of such extreme strength to be almost too uber for this tournament.)

Let me know what you want to do. Feel free to PM JH too, as maybe you want to give your point of view before we go on. As usual, whatever JH decides, I'm cool with.

 

[kytrigger]

Ok, I talked to JH concerning the match between War Machine and Terrax. What's confusing is that in all the bios I have, including recent ones from the Official Handbook, it claims he still has a level of Power Cosmic and still wields the axe. I let JH know I'd stand by his judgement. Here is what he said:

"I say let him keep it. In the Sentry mini he broke the handle and dropped it before Terrax and tells him to leave the planet... then the scene changed. In my opinion, it's safe to assume Terrax took the axe with him. It should be fine to assume he still has it and can use it."


Before I continue with the match...or if you want to start over...we can. I had some false assumptions about Terrax's powers. He's a really confusing character. So many people have done so many things with him. But, if I understand it correctly, he doesn't have the cosmic powers originally given to him by Galactus, but they were somewhat revived by Doom in his castle. I'm not sure, but it seems like much of these cosmic powers reside in his axe. It just isn't anywhere on the level of the Silver Surfer. Since all of his bios state that he's given these powers back through his power suit and he still possesses his axe, it would be assumed to be true. (But, you are correct that he doesn't have to range of power when he was of such extreme strength to be almost too uber for this tournament.)

Let me know what you want to do. Feel free to PM JH too, as maybe you want to give your point of view before we go on. As usual, whatever JH decides, I'm cool with.

Hey, just to let you know, I PMed Jewish Hobbit just now to let him nkow my point of view.

I did say that it is fine to keep the axe. If it's okay with you, I am just going to put a giant note in bold at the end of all my posts stating that he does have the axe and to ignore the no-axe stuff. (If you want me to completely delete it all, just let me know and I can do that too).

The main part I PMed Jewish Hobbit about was his power levels. Doom gave him some power cosmic, but I thought that it burned out and almost killed him as a safety measure put in by Doom (so he would still be the strongest). The biggest problem in this is that I have never seen Terrax's base power level without power cosmic so it's hard to say how strong he is.

Either way, I will accept whatever ruling Jewish Hobbitt decides as I am pretty confused on this one too. Once he dicides, if you would like to start the debate over and delete our first posts, I am fine with that too.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Hey, just to let you know, I PMed Jewish Hobbit just now to let him nkow my point of view.

I did say that it is fine to keep the axe. If it's okay with you, I am just going to put a giant note in bold at the end of all my posts stating that he does have the axe and to ignore the no-axe stuff. (If you want me to completely delete it all, just let me know and I can do that too).

The main part I PMed Jewish Hobbit about was his power levels. Doom gave him some power cosmic, but I thought that it burned out and almost killed him as a safety measure put in by Doom (so he would still be the strongest). The biggest problem in this is that I have never seen Terrax's base power level without power cosmic so it's hard to say how strong he is.

Either way, I will accept whatever ruling Jewish Hobbitt decides as I am pretty confused on this one too. Once he dicides, if you would like to start the debate over and delete our first posts, I am fine with that too.

I completely agree about all that. I was hoping the newest Official Handbook would have something on him; but, they only put him in the Annihilation Nova Corps Files without showing power levels. I know he's not of original power levels; but, also he did aide the other Heralds in the Power Cosmic miniseries and killed Morg with his own axe. There just isn't a good biography, I think mainly because so many different writers have toyed with him and done this and that. (Kind of like how the writer for The Sentry just used him to say The Sentry is so uber powerful.) I do have his current bio, and it just says the following:

Imbued with the Power Cosmic Terrax can gather, channel, and manipulate large quantities of Cosmic Energy. He channels his power through his axe. Terrax's flexible rock-like shell makes him impervious to heat and cold, and he does not require food or oxygen, enabling him to exist within the vacuum of space.

Terrax uses his Power Cosmic to control rock and earth, usually traveling through space by levitating himself upon asteroids. He can attain warp speed while traveling in this way. Terrax can take control of rock and earth within 100 miles, making him most dangerous while planetbound. He has proved able to lift entire islands under his power.

AXE: Terrax's axe can channel his cosmic energy into destructive beams of energy and generate a personal force field. When charged with energy, the axe's blade can cut through vitually any known substance. One version of his axe could also split into a pair of laser weapons. He also briefly wielded the axe of fellow Herald Morg.

Like I said, that's the current bio before the Annihilation Wave began it's search for the Herald's.

 

[kytrigger]

I completely agree about all that. I was hoping the newest Official Handbook would have something on him; but, they only put him in the Annihilation Nova Corps Files without showing power levels. I know he's not of original power levels; but, also he did aide the other Heralds in the Power Cosmic miniseries and killed Morg with his own axe. There just isn't a good biography, I think mainly because so many different writers have toyed with him and done this and that. (Kind of like how the writer for The Sentry just used him to say The Sentry is so uber powerful.) I do have his current bio, and it just says the following:

Imbued with the Power Cosmic Terrax can gather, channel, and manipulate large quantities of Cosmic Energy. He channels his power through his axe. Terrax's flexible rock-like shell makes him impervious to heat and cold, and he does not require food or oxygen, enabling him to exist within the vacuum of space.

Terrax uses his Power Cosmic to control rock and earth, usually traveling through space by levitating himself upon asteroids. He can attain warp speed while traveling in this way. Terrax can take control of rock and earth within 100 miles, making him most dangerous while planetbound. He has proved able to lift entire islands under his power.

AXE: Terrax's axe can channel his cosmic energy into destructive beams of energy and generate a personal force field. When charged with energy, the axe's blade can cut through vitually any known substance. One version of his axe could also split into a pair of laser weapons. He also briefly wielded the axe of fellow Herald Morg.

Like I said, that's the current bio before the Annihilation Wave began it's search for the Herald's.

Yeah, I am willing to accept that as his power level. Saying he can manipulate rock up to 100 miles away sounds about right power-wise. This is fine as long as we can both agree that this isn't uber-powerful Terrax that can lift Manhattan and alter asteroid courses...just powerful Terrax. Sound good?

 

[Phaedrus45]

Good! I'll get a rebuttal up later today or tomorrow

 

[Iceman]

Match 20:

Wildside (KYTRIGGER) bio

vs.

Dark Beast (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio

DARK BEAST Vs WILDSIDE

Powers

“Wildside can alter the perceptions of those around him, essentially "warping" their reality. He also has claws and feral senses and attitudes. He is certifiably crazy, but that didn't stop him from assuming control of the MLF after Stryfe's initial demise.”

...while Dark Beast is essentially a badass version of Beast of the X-Men with zero morals.

In a simple brawl ignoring location and prep time (which I consider below), Dark Beast would prevail with his superior strength, senses, agility, dexterity, speed, intelligence and tactical awareness. His claws are also that much sharper woot:).

Wildside’s warping powers are the only aspect where he is not outmatched but I am unclear as to exactly how he has used this in the past so I look forward to my opponent's debate in this area.

Prep time
Wildside, I’m sure is aware of Beast and may guess that Dark Beast will be similar, not that the name is conclusive. Also he may have access to various records through his Weapon X affiliation that may be of use. Even so there is not too much he can do with any information he finds.

On the other hand Dark Beast is the absolute daddy of prep time.

Knowing that he is going into a possible life and death battle, Dark Beast will use the time to genetically enhance himself to the most extreme limits that time will allow. Maximising factors as varied as strength, psychic defence, speed, vision etc should be well within his capabilities as he specialises even more heavily in genetics than Beast of the X-Men who admittedly has better all round knowledge.

This insane genius will come up with an original, unpredictable plan for victory. One example of his past plans involved creating remote robots to assist him in battle and he should be able to come up with something similarly useful and devious here. He has proven to be one of the most innovative tacticians and will outthink and outmaneuver Wildside from whatever position they begin the match. If the two ever get close Dark Beast's vast and now even further enhanced physical superiorities will leave only one maniac standing.

Location
Dark Beast is far more likely to take advantage of the various defensive systems of the Castle than Wildside. His immeasurably greater intellect will allow him to interpret the workings of the defences more quickly and formulate a plan of attack either from distance by using the castle defences against Wildside or by engineering a way of getting close and surprising Wildside before taking him on physically.

WINNER = DARK BEAST

 

[wiegeabo]

Nimrod vs Talisman

This is going to be somekind of match. On one hand is an experienced and powerful magic user, and on the other is an adapatable mutant killing machine from the future.

Information-wise, Nimrod will more than likely either have information about Talisman, or can find out about her by tapping into the world's computer systems. If Talisman knows about Nimrod, it's from experiences of other groups like the X-Men.

Talisman's metal powers (telepathy, astral projection, exorcism, and commanding of spirits) will have no effect on Nimrod. Both characters have teleportation abilities. Talisman has magical energy blasts, Nimrod has technological blasts. Talisman can create shields of light, Nimrod can create powerful forcefields.

About the only real advantage Talisman has is the ability to somewhat control weather in the form of wind and lightening.

Nimrod's advantages include increadible durability and strength, the ability to adapt to and situation and superpower, and the ability to rebuild itself even when mostly destroyed. Throw in Nimrod's ability to take over computers because its technology is from the future, and the match will be his.

Nimrod doesn't even need to be in the fight once it starts. It can begin interfacing with all of Doom's systems in the castle, and should be able to take them over since it is from the future and can adapt to the security measures Doom has implemented. At that point, Nimrod can throw all of the Castle's defenses at Talisman. Which means she's going to have to fight off Doombots, powerful weapons, rooms that are actually traps, and anything else Doom decided to build into his home.

And with Talisman effectively distracted, Nimrod has all the time it needs to scan her, learn her superpowers, and adapt to them. Then he can join the fight properly and overwelm her. Eventually she will fall.

Nimrod wins

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

DARK BEAST Vs WILDSIDE

Powers

...while Dark Beast is essentially a badass version of Beast of the X-Men with zero morals.

In a simple brawl ignoring location and prep time (which I consider below), Dark Beast would prevail with his superior strength, senses, agility, dexterity, speed, intelligence and tactical awareness. His claws are also that much sharper woot:).

Don't count out Wildside's fighting ability. He was dangerous before, and then went and trained with Weapon X making him a very good fighter. Also, Dark Beast isn't as strong or as good of a fighter as regular Beast since he never trains.

Wildside’s warping powers are the only aspect where he is not outmatched but I am unclear as to exactly how he has used this in the past so I look forward to my opponent's debate in this area.

The way his power's work, he can create psionic distortions that can either: make you see somethign that isn't there, make you not see somethign that is there, or just make you wildly hallucinate like you took 10 hits of acid.

Prep time

Wildside, I’m sure is aware of Beast and may guess that Dark Beast will be similar, not that the name is conclusive. Also he may have access to various records through his Weapon X affiliation that may be of use. Even so there is not too much he can do with any information he finds.

On the other hand Dark Beast is the absolute daddy of prep time.

Knowing that he is going into a possible life and death battle, Dark Beast will use the time to genetically enhance himself to the most extreme limits that time will allow. Maximising factors as varied as strength, psychic defence, speed, vision etc should be well within his capabilities as he specialises even more heavily in genetics than Beast of the X-Men who admittedly has better all round knowledge.

This insane genius will come up with an original, unpredictable plan for victory. One example of his past plans involved creating remote robots to assist him in battle and he should be able to come up with something similarly useful and devious here. He has proven to be one of the most innovative tacticians and will outthink and outmaneuver Wildside from whatever position they begin the match. If the two ever get close Dark Beast's vast and now even further enhanced physical superiorities will leave only one maniac standing.

This is where I disagree. If this was regualr Beast, then yes, prep time would be in his favor, but this is Dark Beast.

While Dark Beast has in the past experimetned on himself to alter himself in certain ways, he doesn't have any available resouces right now. That's his biggest downfall. He has always worked in great labs provided by Onslaught/Apacolypse/X-Men, but now he's on his own. Even if he was able to get some genetic work done, he won't know who the hell Wildside is, so he won't know what to enhance (like psychic defenses). And he won't just improve every part of his body genetically, because he can't. If he could become better overall, he would have already done it to himself.

As for the robots, where is he getting these tools? He's always been given the best tools to work with, but right now he is on his own. Actually, I have read that he was last seen with Callisto, so he isn't on his own, but I highly doubt she has the resources necessary for him to build robots and tamper with himself genetically.

As for him being a tactician, I agree that while he isn't 616 Beast smart, he is still very smart. The main problem would be the location though. Castle Doom has a way of messing with even the best of plans. And in close range, his strength, agility, and smarts won't matter when Wildside is messing with his reality

Location

Dark Beast is far more likely to take advantage of the various defensive systems of the Castle than Wildside. His immeasurably greater intellect will allow him to interpret the workings of the defences more quickly and formulate a plan of attack either from distance by using the castle defences against Wildside or by engineering a way of getting close and surprising Wildside before taking him on physically.

You see, I believe that dark Beast would think himself smart enough to take control of Castle Doom's defenses too. The only problem is, that I don't believe he actually could. He isn't as smart as 616 Beast in the area of computers and whatnot, and even if he was there is one major problem: these are Doom's computers. In all honesty, he would try and hack into them, and then the rain of **** would be neverending upon Dark Beast. Doom probably has teh best security systems on his computers and once someone tried to hack into them, Doombots would undoubtedly search them out. The biggest thing Wildside has to fear form this is that he won't even get the chance to kill Dark Beast since the Doombots will take care of it for him.

On the other hand, while Wildside isn't a genious like Beast, he isn't an idiot either. He knows where he is, and he knows that being in Castle Doom means always being in danger. He will tread very carefully, and his increased senses will let him detect quite a few traps. While his intellect might let Beast get through the same trap a little quicker, Wildside would still get through. And he wouldn't then use the Computer of Death afterwards.

Dark Beast is very smart, but he has no resources to take advatnage of his intelligence. Even if he could alter himslef, he won't know the best way to alter himself to fight Wildside, and ultimately his knowledge will be his undoing as he tries to hack in Doom's computers which will do nothing but create a lot of pain for himself.

Winner- Wildside

 

[Phaedrus45]

Terrax vs. War Machine:

I'm just kind of restarting my opening comments. Terrax and War Machine are both confusing characters who have both gone through many different writers who envision each one differently, or use them for their own needs to suit whatever story they are trying to tell.

Now, first I'd like to talk about access to information. Of course, Terrax really wouldn't get any information on Terrax; but, as many might not realize, James Rhodes had a brief falling-out with Tony Stark and gave up his superhero career. He did make up with Tony, and they battled an evil War Machine once; but, that's it, up to him being brought in for the O.N.E. program. (Of course, anything involving Decimation doesn't get used for this character.) Since James has given up involvement with Tony Stark and the other organizations he used to belong to, in order to start his own salvage company, he would not have access to those files. Remember, he's now a salvage guy. Now, I'm sure Rhodey would get some basic information about Terrax; but, I just want to stress that it wouldn't be as technical as he'd wish it to be.

About the location, Terrax actually benefits more. He's been to Castle Doom; after all, it was Doom who helped to regenerate Terrax to some of his former glory after Galactus stripped him of his power. They both agreed to have Terrax help Doom in destroying the Fantastic Four. (And, it would have worked, if not for that darn Silver Surfer and his meddling dog!!!) Again, I want to point out that Rhodey might be able to find some information on Castle Doom, but not to the extent as he'd wish. He is not associated with Tony Stark or the Avengers, after all.

Now, we've agreed that the following can be considered Terrax's powers for this season:

Imbued with the Power Cosmic Terrax can gather, channel, and manipulate large quantities of Cosmic Energy. He channels his power through his axe. Terrax's flexible rock-like shell makes him impervious to heat and cold, and he does not require food or oxygen, enabling him to exist within the vacuum of space.

Terrax uses his Power Cosmic to control rock and earth, usually traveling through space by levitating himself upon asteroids. He can attain warp speed while traveling in this way. Terrax can take control of rock and earth within 100 miles, making him most dangerous while planetbound. He has proved able to lift entire islands under his power.

AXE: Terrax's axe can channel his cosmic energy into destructive beams of energy and generate a personal force field. When charged with energy, the axe's blade can cut through vitually any known substance. One version of his axe could also split into a pair of laser weapons. He also briefly wielded the axe of fellow Herald Morg.


So, Terrax has two basic methods of attack in this match. Both are foolproof, in my opinion. Most likely, his control over Earth and Rock, as it exclaims in his bio, is "most dangerous while planetbound," and the reason is simple. He can protect himself in the stone castle, but Rhodey is going to be like a can of sardines. The second they get transported to Castle Doom, Terrax will use his control of the Earth and Rock and simply bring the entire castle down upon them. Terrax will be able to walk (or fly) away no problem. Rhodey, on the other hand, will be dead.

Of course, in comics, this would be rather boring, and many voters might not want to award a match to someone who doesn't even have to fight. So, if it comes to blows, I point out that Terrax only has gotten beat by people of vast power, like Silver Surfer or The Sentry. (In fact, The Sentry was considered waaaay to uber for this competition; and, as they've shown him able to defeat anyone but himself, it stands to reason that the writers could have shown Sentry defeating anyone, from Terrax to the Silver Surfer.) War Machine is no Silver Surfer. His weapons, in all likely hood, wouldn't even harm Terrax. After all, Terrax has a personal force field that his axe provides, protecting him from any harm that War Machine could throw at him. He'd simply walk up to War Machine, War Machine would go on the offensive...but, nothing would touch him...and, with one swipe of his axe, Terrax would just open him as easily as a can opener opens a can of tuna.

Winner = Terrax

 

[Phaedrus45]

First, let's get prep-time out of the way. Terrax won't really have any info on War Machine, but War Machine could get info on him definately. he has faced the New Warrriors and the Fantastic Four before, and some of those battles were extremeyl public (like when he had lifted all of Manhattan off the ground). Also, Rhodes could get info on Doom Castle as well. While he wouldn't know everything about the place, he would definately be familiar with teh surroundings, and have a much better idea of what to expect in the way of traps and whatnot. In all honesty, I wouldn't doubt that he would upload all the info and schematics for the castle into his armor so he could constantly know where he was at all times. So the advantage of prep time goes to War Machine.

Yes, I agree Terrax wouldn't have any information on War Machine; but, he won't need it either. The only people who've been able to defeat him are those considered too uber for this competion. Now, as shown in my previous post, while James Rhodes can possibly get basic information about Castle Doom and Terrax, it won't be that extensive. He's broken off all ties with Tony Stark and the superhuman community. He currently works at his own Salvage Company with this version.

War Machine has many different weapons ranging from flame throwers to missiles, to repulsor rays and many other things. He also has a strength level of about 90 tons and pretty impressive forcefields.

But, when you are crushed by an entire castle, all those powers will be for naught. Plus, any of those weapons won't effect Terrax. He has a personal force field; and, War Machine's force field will be ineffective against the crushing power of Terrax's powers or his deadly axe.

Now Terrax has increased strength, and control over rock/earth, and energy blasts. He's also very durable. His strength is listed at around 75 tons.
Now here's one of the most deciding parts of the battle.Terrax is a former Herald of Galactus, and with the Power Cosmic, this figh twould be almost all but over, but he doesn't have the power anymore. Galactus stripped it of him. The power Galactus gave him increased his power of rocks over 100 fold, which is what let him do all the great feats like take on teh Fantastic Four, and lift Manhattan as I stated earlier. While he can still control rocks, he is nowhere near that power now.
Also you have to throw in the fact that while he does use his rock powers, he also loves to brawl. I highly doubt that he would just resort to using his powers in a one-on-one fight like this. If he was trying to take over Latveria? Yes. But he wouldn't pass up an opportuntity to get his hands dirty on this fight and would seek hand to hand combat.

A few inaccuracies. Terrax does possess the Power Cosmic, just not to the extent of his Galactus days. He can still rumble with the best of them. And, while he does like a brawl, he doesn't like to waste time, either. He will go for the death-blow right away. As pointed out, planetbound he's very, very dangerous; and, while War Machine would love for Terrax to engage him in battle, this is a contest to advance further, and Terrax would know he has an initial advantage right at his fingertips.

That leaves us with his almighty axe. I will be the first to admit that the axe is extremely powerful. Luckily for War Machine, Sentry destroyed it in his mini. No axe for Terrax. Even without his axe though, he is a formidable fighter, but so is War machine. remember, War Machine has a strength advantage also.

As we've both noted, Terrax does have his axe.

And the final downfall for Terrax in this match is the location. Castle Doom is absolutely riddled with traps. War Machine knows this and would be careful while in the castle, using his many forms of technology to detect as much of the traps as possible. Terrax on the other hand wouldn't know about hte traps and would immediately just start wandering around the castle looking for War Machine. Terrax would undoubtedly spring some of those traps which would either immobilze him instantly, or give War Macihine an advatage to strike. Knowing how strong Terrax is, War machine would waste no time in striking Terrax as fast and as hard as he could to put him down quickly.

Actually, as I've learned, Terrax has the advantage over War Machine in regards to Castle Doom. He's been there before; I don't think Rhodey ever has. And, while Tony has fought Doom many, many times, Rhodey wouldn't have access to that information any longer. Plus, in regards to "striking Terrax as fast and as hard as he could to put him down quickly," it just won't happen. As many know, Terrax is very resilient, and after hitting him hard and fast, he'd most likely see Terrax standing there, saying, "Are you through yet?"

Winner = Terrax

 

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal
While Terrax would definately go for the kill, he does love a good fight. That's why he would actually search out War Machine instead of just trying to cause an earthquake or something.

Actually, in my opinion, Terrax loves a good slaughter even more. He's not one to "*****-foot" around. He would go for the quick kill, and rejoice in it's beauty.

All true, but what you have failed to mention is that he was stripped of his cosmic powers. He pissed off Galactus one too many times and got it taken away. Also, his axe was destroyed by Sentry so while he does still have the same powers all are DRASTICALLY reduced. (I think the bios said the Power Cosmic made him 100x more powerful, so he is 100x weaker than most of his feats)

As shown, even with his reduced powers, he's the one who defeated Morg in the Cosmic Powers miniseries. Even with a reduced amount of Cosmic Powers, as partially restored by Doom, it's still more than enough to take down War Machine. Basically, the old Terrax would have been too uber for this competition. Now, he's good competition for those higher-ups in this contest, of which War Machine isn't quite up to par.

1) This isn't a regular castle. Yes he can manipulate the stone, butI highly doubt it would be that easy for him to level Castle Doom. It is protected by incredible technology and magic, and his powers have been reduced significantly.

There is nothing in any information that says this castle is anything that's protected in that fashion. Terrax is most powerful when he's planetbound, and he would go for such a dramatic kill with great ease.

2) Even if he could bring down the castle, how on earth would that stop War Machine? His forcefield is as good as Iron Man's, and much more durable than Terrax himself. It could easily withstand falling stone and he could then easily fly out of the rubble. Terrax is more likely to get hurt from this strategy than War Machine.

A force field is very effective in some situations; but, this isn't one of them. With rock and Earth coming from all sides, the pressure would be far too much for Rhodey to handle. And, even if his force field did protect him from getting squished, how is he going to escape from this burial by Terrax? Plus, when you control all rock and earth, it's quite easy not to get hurt from this strategy. After all, Terrax is a creature made up of rock.

He won't have the axe, and IF Terrax did cause earthquakes, a great way to avoid those is flight. It would be a tough battle, but take War Machine's forcefield and flight, and his stealth mode and couple that with his greater array of long distance weapons for long range and his greater strength for short range combat and he takes this.

But, this match is limited to Castle Doom, so how is War Machine going to take flight? Terrax can crush all parts of Castle Doom, leaving just the small chunk that he's inhabiting. War Machine will be crushed....squished like the bug he is beneath Terrax's feet.

Winner = Terrax

 

[kytrigger]

Terrax vs. War Machine:

I'm just kind of restarting my opening comments. Terrax and War Machine are both confusing characters who have both gone through many different writers who envision each one differently, or use them for their own needs to suit whatever story they are trying to tell.

Agree, this might be the most confusing match power-wise I've been in so far (thank god you opened up debating a day early or else neither of us would have had much in teh way of a debate)

Now, first I'd like to talk about access to information. Of course, Terrax really wouldn't get any information on Terrax; but, as many might not realize, James Rhodes had a brief falling-out with Tony Stark and gave up his superhero career. He did make up with Tony, and they battled an evil War Machine once; but, that's it, up to him being brought in for the O.N.E. program. (Of course, anything involving Decimation doesn't get used for this character.) Since James has given up involvement with Tony Stark and the other organizations he used to belong to, in order to start his own salvage company, he would not have access to those files. Remember, he's now a salvage guy. Now, I'm sure Rhodey would get some basic information about Terrax; but, I just want to stress that it wouldn't be as technical as he'd wish it to be.

While he isn't as close with Stark as he once was, I believe he could still get all the information he wanted to. He was once an Avenger and while he doesn't really work closely with those heroes anymore, he didn't just completely piss them off or anything. It isn't that big of a chore to simply ask to use their database. Even Stark, whom he has had several falling outs with, has never shown so much aggression as to not actually help Rhodes in a time of need. The mere fact that for every time they have fallen out, they have also come back to help the other shows that their friendship is above whatever argument they have had, AND it also shows that they both are willing to help/ be helped out by the other, so using either the Avengers database ro Stark's own database (which is probably almost exactly the same) isn't really that far-fetched.

(I have a feeling this will be up to the voter's to decide which level of info War Machine can get)

About the location, Terrax actually benefits more. He's been to Castle Doom; after all, it was Doom who helped to regenerate Terrax to some of his former glory after Galactus stripped him of his power. They both agreed to have Terrax help Doom in destroying the Fantastic Four. (And, it would have worked, if not for that darn Silver Surfer and his meddling dog!!!) Again, I want to point out that Rhodey might be able to find some information on Castle Doom, but not to the extent as he'd wish. He is not associated with Tony Stark or the Avengers, after all.

But for the vast majority of Terrax's stay at Castle Doom, he was in a coma, and when he was awake, he was a welcome guest. He might know some of the basic layout, but he wouldn't be prepared for the many traps Doom has prepared since he isn't welcomed this time.

(I already stated my point for War Machine's way of getting knowledge, so I won't repeat it). I will state that with info on Terrax, he could get as much info on Doom's castle as possible, and even more importantly, he would know to be incredibly cautious in Castle Doom no matter how much info he has, IMO a very valuable assett.

Now, we've agreed that the following can be considered Terrax's powers for this season:

Imbued with the Power Cosmic Terrax can gather, channel, and manipulate large quantities of Cosmic Energy. He channels his power through his axe. Terrax's flexible rock-like shell makes him impervious to heat and cold, and he does not require food or oxygen, enabling him to exist within the vacuum of space.

Terrax uses his Power Cosmic to control rock and earth, usually traveling through space by levitating himself upon asteroids. He can attain warp speed while traveling in this way. Terrax can take control of rock and earth within 100 miles, making him most dangerous while planetbound. He has proved able to lift entire islands under his power.

AXE: Terrax's axe can channel his cosmic energy into destructive beams of energy and generate a personal force field. When charged with energy, the axe's blade can cut through vitually any known substance. One version of his axe could also split into a pair of laser weapons. He also briefly wielded the axe of fellow Herald Morg.

Yay! we agree on something!!!!

So, Terrax has two basic methods of attack in this match. Both are foolproof, in my opinion. Most likely, his control over Earth and Rock, as it exclaims in his bio, is "most dangerous while planetbound," and the reason is simple. He can protect himself in the stone castle, but Rhodey is going to be like a can of sardines. The second they get transported to Castle Doom, Terrax will use his control of the Earth and Rock and simply bring the entire castle down upon them. Terrax will be able to walk (or fly) away no problem. Rhodey, on the other hand, will be dead.

I think that the strategy of bringing down csatle Doom wouldn't work nearly as well as Terrax thinks it would.

Either A) it's much harder to bring down than a regular castle because Doom has also protected it with magic, or (even worse)

B) he starts to bring the castle down. Nwo Doom is a very prepared guy (I think we can both agree on that) One of the things that I am sure he has prepared for is an attack or invasion on Castle Doom. Once a single stone of this building starts to be destroyed by Terrax the entire castle will go into a lockdown mode and destroy who/whatever is trying to harm Doom's Castle. By doing this, Terrax will have brought the wrath of Doom himslef upon him which would include Doombots and a plehtora of other nasty surprises. Not a very good place for Terrax to be in. On the other hand, War Machine will get to standby and watch as Terrax gets assaulted.

Of course, in comics, this would be rather boring, and many voters might not want to award a match to someone who doesn't even have to fight. So, if it comes to blows, I point out that Terrax only has gotten beat by people of vast power, like Silver Surfer or The Sentry. (In fact, The Sentry was considered waaaay to uber for this competition; and, as they've shown him able to defeat anyone but himself, it stands to reason that the writers could have shown Sentry defeating anyone, from Terrax to the Silver Surfer.) War Machine is no Silver Surfer. His weapons, in all likely hood, wouldn't even harm Terrax. After all, Terrax has a personal force field that his axe provides, protecting him from any harm that War Machine could throw at him. He'd simply walk up to War Machine, War Machine would go on the offensive...but, nothing would touch him...and, with one swipe of his axe, Terrax would just open him as easily as a can opener opens a can of tuna.

Well, those feats where Terrax was beaten was still a much more powerful version of Terrax than we have fighting here. (Actually, I think the Sentry fight was this version of Terrax, but he got his butt stomped rather easily, and probably would have no matter what version so it's kind of moot.)

You did fail to mention that Terrax has been beaten in his "weaker" mode that is fighting here by the New Warriors, and was basically beaten by just Nova and Namorita. And this was normal Nova, not insanely powerful Annihilation Nova either. So he can be hurt, and he can be hurt by War Machine.

The simple fact that if War Machine keeps Terrax off the ground, Terrax is screwed. He wouldn't be powerless, but he would be depowered enough for there to be a definate advantage for War Machine.

Don't get me wrong, this would be a tough fight, but since this is a weaker version of Terrax, he is much more on the level of War Machine than he was previously. Put in the fact that (IMO) War Machine would have a great deal of info on Terrax AND Castle Doom and War Machine takes this tough battle.

Winner- War Machine

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

Yes, I agree Terrax wouldn't have any information on War Machine; but, he won't need it either. The only people who've been able to defeat him are those considered too uber for this competion. Now, as shown in my previous post, while James Rhodes can possibly get basic information about Castle Doom and Terrax, it won't be that extensive. He's broken off all ties with Tony Stark and the superhuman community. He currently works at his own Salvage Company with this version.

Like I stated in my last post. I disagree on the whole gathering info thing. I think he would be able to gather info.

But, when you are crushed by an entire castle, all those powers will be for naught. Plus, any of those weapons won't effect Terrax. He has a personal force field; and, War Machine's force field will be ineffective against the crushing power of Terrax's powers or his deadly axe.

I still don't see why you think a collapsing building would destroy War Machine. agreat deal of his technology is the same as in teh Irton Man suit, and one of those things is a fabulous forcefield. I truly believe that if the building were to fall, the forcefield and his flight would allow War Machine to easily escape unharmed.

A few inaccuracies. Terrax does possess the Power Cosmic, just not to the extent of his Galactus days. He can still rumble with the best of them. And, while he does like a brawl, he doesn't like to waste time, either. He will go for the death-blow right away. As pointed out, planetbound he's very, very dangerous; and, while War Machine would love for Terrax to engage him in battle, this is a contest to advance further, and Terrax would know he has an initial advantage right at his fingertips.

Does getting beat by Nova and Namorita still count as hanging with teh best of them. Terrax is still a force to be reckoned with sure, but he is nowhere near his previous power levels and has been beaten by the less uber heroes also.

As we've both noted, Terrax does have his axe.

Yes.

Actually, as I've learned, Terrax has the advantage over War Machine in regards to Castle Doom. He's been there before; I don't think Rhodey ever has. And, while Tony has fought Doom many, many times, Rhodey wouldn't have access to that information any longer. Plus, in regards to "striking Terrax as fast and as hard as he could to put him down quickly," it just won't happen. As many know, Terrax is very resilient, and after hitting him hard and fast, he'd most likely see Terrax standing there, saying, "Are you through yet?"

(You know my stance on the info thing, so I won't needlessly repeat it again )

And yes, Terrax has been to Castle Doom before, but as a guest. In all honesty, I think that a guest of Castle Doom, and an intruder of Castle Doom greatly changes how you approach it. Rhodes will, no matter how much info he gets, be EXTREMELY cautious in the castle because he knows what Doom is capable of. Terrax would probabyl just alk through the castle like normal thinking that either A) there aren't any traps or B) that he can dispose of anything Doom comes up with anyway. Afterall the only time he has clashed with Doom (after Doom gave him the Power Cosmic), he won against him, and while that's good on his part, to underestimate Doom again would be deadly.

Winner- War Machine

 

[Phaedrus45]

While he isn't as close with Stark as he once was, I believe he could still get all the information he wanted to. He was once an Avenger and while he doesn't really work closely with those heroes anymore, he didn't just completely piss them off or anything. It isn't that big of a chore to simply ask to use their database. Even Stark, whom he has had several falling outs with, has never shown so much aggression as to not actually help Rhodes in a time of need. The mere fact that for every time they have fallen out, they have also come back to help the other shows that their friendship is above whatever argument they have had, AND it also shows that they both are willing to help/ be helped out by the other, so using either the Avengers database ro Stark's own database (which is probably almost exactly the same) isn't really that far-fetched.

By the rules that I understand from JH, since James Rhodes cut off all ties with Tony Stark and the Superhuman community and is currently working for his own salvage company, he would not have access to their database. He would be able to find out stuff about Terrax and Castle Doom in the same regards as any other person out there. But, he's not affiliated with these people and wouldn't be able to use them. Sure, Tony and James "made up," but it's not so close that Tony would just let James walk into his facilities (which is also what the Avenger's Mansion would be, too). Plus, as this is a contest of Marvels, James Rhodes can't use Tony Starks data, just like Thing wouldn't be able to get information that Reed would know. (Or, as in my other contest, Kid Omega cannot gain access to X-Men files.)

But for the vast majority of Terrax's stay at Castle Doom, he was in a coma, and when he was awake, he was a welcome guest. He might know some of the basic layout, but he wouldn't be prepared for the many traps Doom has prepared since he isn't welcomed this time.

But, he would be more familiar with the terrain than War Machine. In fact, it's even possible many of the "traps and pitfalls" wouldn't work on Terrax, due to his association with Doom. In the least, I doubt any trap of Dooms would effect him.

I think that the strategy of bringing down csatle Doom wouldn't work nearly as well as Terrax thinks it would.

Either A) it's much harder to bring down than a regular castle because Doom has also protected it with magic, or (even worse)

B) he starts to bring the castle down. Nwo Doom is a very prepared guy (I think we can both agree on that) One of the things that I am sure he has prepared for is an attack or invasion on Castle Doom. Once a single stone of this building starts to be destroyed by Terrax the entire castle will go into a lockdown mode and destroy who/whatever is trying to harm Doom's Castle. By doing this, Terrax will have brought the wrath of Doom himslef upon him which would include Doombots and a plehtora of other nasty surprises. Not a very good place for Terrax to be in. On the other hand, War Machine will get to standby and watch as Terrax gets assaulted.

Many of Doom's protection on his castle would be shields from outside forces. He wouldn't think of someone of Terrax's power bringing it down from the inside. Plus, as pointed out, Terrax is most dangerous planetboud, and his powers are just that much greater.

You did fail to mention that Terrax has been beaten in his "weaker" mode that is fighting here by the New Warriors, and was basically beaten by just Nova and Namorita. And this was normal Nova, not insanely powerful Annihilation Nova either. So he can be hurt, and he can be hurt by War Machine.

I don't bring up New Warriors, because that version is clearly not this version. This version is much, much more powerful; plus, this is a one on one match.

Don't get me wrong, this would be a tough fight, but since this is a weaker version of Terrax, he is much more on the level of War Machine than he was previously. Put in the fact that (IMO) War Machine would have a great deal of info on Terrax AND Castle Doom and War Machine takes this tough battle.

But, a weaker version of Terrax is still a damn tough Terrax. This "weaker version" still defeated Morg, went toe-to-toe with the Fantastic Four (who had the Silver Surfer bail them out), and is clearly not the much weaker version as seen in New Warriors.

Winner = Terrax

 

[Phaedrus45]

I think I've given my reasoning well enough on this match between Terrax and War Machine. Feel free to rebutt my rebuttal; but, I figure it will be repeating ourselves now on. Unless something new gets added, I'm fine with letting the debate stand as is. After reading your rebuttal, I'll probably just sign off on it.

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

Actually, in my opinion, Terrax loves a good slaughter even more. He's not one to "*****-foot" around. He would go for the quick kill, and rejoice in it's beauty.

okay. I will agree that it would be in Terrax's nature to try the quick kill.

I still think though that it wouldn't hurt War Machine at all really and would end with Terrax regretting the decision to bring on Doom's wrath. ( I won't pu tmore since I did in my previous posts and i am sure you are already rebutting that t: )

As shown, even with his reduced powers, he's the one who defeated Morg in the Cosmic Powers miniseries. Even with a reduced amount of Cosmic Powers, as partially restored by Doom, it's still more than enough to take down War Machine. Basically, the old Terrax would have been too uber for this competition. Now, he's good competition for those higher-ups in this contest, of which War Machine isn't quite up to par.

Just for clarification, the cosmic powers in his axe aren't from Doom. He still lost all the Cosmic Power from Doom when he lost to Silver Surfer.

Also, he didn't really beat Morg, all the other Heralds had a hand in defeating him. This is from wikipedia:

Morg and Terrax take almost instantly to a rivalry, as they are the only two heralds that wield axes and both enjoy fights. During the battle, Terrax' axe crumbles and Morg successfully knocks him out

There is nothing in any information that says this castle is anything that's protected in that fashion. Terrax is most powerful when he's planetbound, and he would go for such a dramatic kill with great ease.

A large majority of the things that Doom has done were never hinted at before he did them. That's why he is so dangerous. He thinks of almost every scenario and defends against it. That is what he is known for. From this knowledge, I did assume that Doom would have his castle guarded against be leveled.

However, you are right, nothing (to my knowledge) has shown this.

A force field is very effective in some situations; but, this isn't one of them. With rock and Earth coming from all sides, the pressure would be far too much for Rhodey to handle. And, even if his force field did protect him from getting squished, how is he going to escape from this burial by Terrax? Plus, when you control all rock and earth, it's quite easy not to get hurt from this strategy. After all, Terrax is a creature made up of rock.

You are assuming that Rhodes would be buried in one of the sub-basements which he wouldn't. HE knows that Terrax controls earth and stone, why would he go to a place surrounded even more by those things? IF the castel were to start to crumble, he would fly up. There would be no real pressure, just random falling stones that his forcefield is definately more than capable of handling. In the end he wold just be hovering over the castle ruins completely unharmed.

But, this match is limited to Castle Doom, so how is War Machine going to take flight? Terrax can crush all parts of Castle Doom, leaving just the small chunk that he's inhabiting. War Machine will be crushed....squished like the bug he is beneath Terrax's feet.

I'm sorry, but I find it pretty unfair that your opponent can destroy castle Doom, but then say that mine can't flee from the destruction. Hovering where the castle would have been should still count as in the ring. Not to mention that there are at least several open air parts of the castle that he can hover in. When I say he flies, I'm not saying he flees to the outskirts of Latveria, but is simply above the castle (or even occupying space where the castle was.)



I'll also point out that I believe this fight will go farther than just Terrax knocking down the building, they will have to fight. When it comes to this, War machine is actually stronger than Terrax physically. They both have long ranged attacks that while my opponenent doesn't think will hurt Terrax, I beleive they would. Remeber, this isn't uber Terrax (they wouldn't have hurt him) but the weaker version. While War Machine's long ranged attacks won't hurt Terrax enough for the victory, Terrax will still have to be wary of them.

Also, War machine has one other Ace up his sleeve: his cloaking device. War machine would know that terrax is a very good close ranged fighter with his axe, so instead he would cloak himself so Terrax couldn't see him. This would allow him to get close to Terrax and get the first punch in. After that War machine would most likely get out of there. He would continue flying in invisible getting a punch or two in, and gettin gout of there before Terrax can fight back. This would wear down Terraxuntil War Machine could finish the job.

Winner-War Machine

 

[kytrigger]

I think I've given my reasoning well enough on this match between Terrax and War Machine. Feel free to rebutt my rebuttal; but, I figure it will be repeating ourselves now on. Unless something new gets added, I'm fine with letting the debate stand as is. After reading your rebuttal, I'll probably just sign off on it.

haha...sorry, I didn't see this before because I was too busy rebutting t: . I agree that we both are probably going around in circles now, so I'm gonna just read your last rebuttal. If there's anything new, I'll rebutt, but if not, then I'll just leave it as is.

 

[Phaedrus45]

You are assuming that Rhodes would be buried in one of the sub-basements which he wouldn't. HE knows that Terrax controls earth and stone, why would he go to a place surrounded even more by those things? IF the castel were to start to crumble, he would fly up. There would be no real pressure, just random falling stones that his forcefield is definately more than capable of handling. In the end he wold just be hovering over the castle ruins completely unharmed.

I'll only respond to this by saying, "yes, if it was within War Machine's powers to escape the crushing castle, then I wouldn't have a problem." The thing is, I've never invisioned the castle coming down on War Machine. It was more like it all being coming from all sides, crushing it into a ball, with none of it coming within Terrax's space.

That's it, just a clarification of "yeah, War Machine would fly away if he was able to (I don't think he could, but obviously, you'd argue he could. It would be up to the voters, I guess) and how I think the crushing would work; not coming down, but like how something comes in from all sides.

 

[JewishHobbit]

By the rules that I understand from JH, since James Rhodes cut off all ties with Tony Stark and the Superhuman community and is currently working for his own salvage company, he would not have access to their database. He would be able to find out stuff about Terrax and Castle Doom in the same regards as any other person out there. But, he's not affiliated with these people and wouldn't be able to use them. Sure, Tony and James "made up," but it's not so close that Tony would just let James walk into his facilities (which is also what the Avenger's Mansion would be, too). Plus, as this is a contest of Marvels, James Rhodes can't use Tony Starks data, just like Thing wouldn't be able to get information that Reed would know. (Or, as in my other contest, Kid Omega cannot gain access to X-Men files.)

Phaed is correct in this. The resources a person can use is their resources. James can't use Tony's records, or Avengers records, etc... even though he and Tony has made up. Even if one would believe that Tony would let him (and I don't find that too far fetched)... it simply isn't James' resource.

As Phaed and I discussed in a differant match up regarding resources... it isn't what resources your character can come up with, or come accross... it's what is his during his COM version. And we've said all along that you cannot use another person as a resource (meaning you can't ask someone else for info, such as James asking Tony).

I hope this makes sense as I'm kinda tired now. But long story short... War Machine would have no access to Avengers files or Tony's files. He might get some info on Terrax from simple internet searches, as he's been on Earth before... but I doubt there'd be much info there to gather.

 

[kytrigger]

Phaed is correct in this. The resources a person can use is their resources. James can't use Tony's records, or Avengers records, etc... even though he and Tony has made up. Even if one would believe that Tony would let him (and I don't find that too far fetched)... it simply isn't James' resource.

As Phaed and I discussed in a differant match up regarding resources... it isn't what resources your character can come up with, or come accross... it's what is his during his COM version. And we've said all along that you cannot use another person as a resource (meaning you can't ask someone else for info, such as James asking Tony).

I hope this makes sense as I'm kinda tired now. But long story short... War Machine would have no access to Avengers files or Tony's files. He might get some info on Terrax from simple internet searches, as he's been on Earth before... but I doubt there'd be much info there to gather.

okay, that makes sense...and I'll change my debate accordingly


While it has been stated that War Machine can't use Stark's or the Avenger's databse for info, he can still get some information on Terrax. While it wouldn't be nearly as in depth, he could still get some understanding of his powers over earth and rock, and would see that since he has fought the FF and Silver Surfer, that he is a force to be reckoned with and very strong.

He also wouldn't be able to get much info on Castle Doom, but would still have the most important info on the place: That it's freaking Doom's castle. He knows who Doom is and how methodical and dangerous he can be. While he wouldn't know where they traps were in teh castle beforehand, he would definately be wary of them and be on constant guard while in the castle, which IMO is the best thing to do when in Castle Doom.

 

[Phaedrus45]

While it has been stated that War Machine can't use Stark's or the Avenger's databse for info, he can still get some information on Terrax. While it wouldn't be nearly as in depth, he could still get some understanding of his powers over earth and rock, and would see that since he has fought the FF and Silver Surfer, that he is a force to be reckoned with and very strong.

He also wouldn't be able to get much info on Castle Doom, but would still have the most important info on the place: That it's freaking Doom's castle. He knows who Doom is and how methodical and dangerous he can be. While he wouldn't know where they traps were in teh castle beforehand, he would definately be wary of them and be on constant guard while in the castle, which IMO is the best thing to do when in Castle Doom.

I do agree that Rhodey would know the basic idea of who Terrax is. I'm sure it made news, and as he used to work in the Superhero community, I could see him even remembering hearing about Terrax in the news. Plus, I agree that War Machine would know to be careful in Castle Doom. Only an idiot would think Doom would leave the castle without defenses.

As I agree with your statements, it seems easy enough to say we've dragged this match as far as it will go. Good match, Ky. I can see this going either way. Should be fun to watch the votes come in.

 

[kytrigger]

I do agree that Rhodey would know the basic idea of who Terrax is. I'm sure it made news, and as he used to work in the Superhero community, I could see him even remembering hearing about Terrax in the news. Plus, I agree that War Machine would know to be careful in Castle Doom. Only an idiot would think Doom would leave the castle without defenses.

As I agree with your statements, it seems easy enough to say we've dragged this match as far as it will go. Good match, Ky. I can see this going either way. Should be fun to watch the votes come in.

Definately. I can honestly say that I have no idea which character will win this, and this is the first time both of my debates are like this. I enjoy it this way as it gives off a level of suspense you just don't get when Vertigo goes up against Kurse.

Either way, a good debate by you as always.

Oh yeah, and I did forget to mention that Terrax has lost to one other person before...Squirrel Girl (but I think that arguing that actually makes Terrax more powerful seein gthe people she has defeated before.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Beware...Squirrel Girl will win this entire thing, and JH will be so ashamed, there will never be a Contest of Marvels III.

 

[Iceman]

REBUTTAL: DARK BEAST Vs WILDSIDE

Rebuttal
Don't count out Wildside's fighting ability. He was dangerous before, and then went and trained with Weapon X making him a very good fighter. Also, Dark Beast isn't as strong or as good of a fighter as regular Beast since he never trains.

I didn't mean to make it sound like Wildside is completely useless in the combat stakes. As you say his Weapon X background means that your average chump should stay well clear of the guy.

As for the Dark Beast Vs Beast comparison, I agree that Beast's commitment to regular training gives him an edge in strength and certain fighting skills. However I think Dark Beast is a far more deadly combatant as Beast has zero killer instinct. Dark Beast prefers to win dirty (using his sharp claws in battle unlike Beast) and never holds back. This should even out any weaknesses. I don't think I'm stretching at all by claiming that Dark Beast could at least match Beast (and therefore pummel Wildside) in a straight brawl due to his lack of morals but voters are free to decide based on what they know of the characters.

The way his power's work, he can create psionic distortions that can either: make you see somethign that isn't there, make you not see somethign that is there, or just make you wildly hallucinate like you took 10 hits of acid.

OK Thanks for explaining. I would suggest (I can't claim to know) that he would have trouble maintaining this power when under attack and being continually struck by someone with Dark Beast's strength and ferocity. I'm also unsure over whether he can use this power when he cannot see his opponent. Please correct me if I am wrong on either of those counts.

Even without specific knowledge of his opponent, it is in character for Dark Beast to hide out (which should be easy in Castle Doom) assess his opponent (not that he would discover the warping until it begins) and strike in deadly fashion when he is confident of victory. He is merciless and does not pause to let his opponent recover and will gladly kill Wildside.

He has the sharper senses, and is far faster and more agile. Dark Beast will be the one who will start the conflict at a time of his choosing.

Let me put it this way, if Wildside can avoid getting hit and can sneak up on Dark Beast and start using these tricks before he has a chance to do anything I would certainly give your character a chance. I don't believe he's capable but voters might. As I said before, without his warping powers, there is no point showing up. With them he at least he has one area where he is not completely outmatched.

This is where I disagree. If this was regualr Beast, then yes, prep time would be in his favor, but this is Dark Beast.

While Dark Beast has in the past experimetned on himself to alter himself in certain ways, he doesn't have any available resouces right now. That's his biggest downfall. He has always worked in great labs provided by Onslaught/Apacolypse/X-Men, but now he's on his own. Even if he was able to get some genetic work done, he won't know who the hell Wildside is, so he won't know what to enhance (like psychic defenses). And he won't just improve every part of his body genetically, because he can't. If he could become better overall, he would have already done it to himself.

He has experimented on others rather than himself in the past mainly because there has been no need to enhance himself to these great lengths as he hasn't been in a true battle to the death scenario until now. He only changed his genetics to resemble Beast and infiltrate the X-Men when it became necessary. In this scenario, if he is unaware of his opponent he can't mix and match, he will have to go for an all round enhancement approach. Not knowing how powerful his opponent is, he will have to go for the max in case he is put up against a real badass.

The areas he is enhancing do not assume knowledge of his opponent as they are general improvements by nature. Current scientists are already able to improve vision with laser surgery (you can get it done in your lunch hour), and there are all sorts of controversies within athletics and weightlifting regarding genetic doping (which in the near future will allow over 100% strength gains in humans (already achieved in rats). Dark Beast will not set his sights anywhere near as low as the real world scientists of today who are merely looking for methods to improve health rather than ways to make people efficient killers.

Also, science has advanced to the early stages of tracking certain thought patterns by computer. Disabled people are able to move cursors on a pc screen using headgear that reads their thoughts. This shows that tampering with the mind using genetics is also quite possible in today's world and you don't need Apocalypse's lab to achieve it. Any lab from a top university or research company (in the real world universe) will do and Dark Beast can easily disguise himself to obtain access. Lets face it, if he can convince the X-Men that he is 616 Beast, he can convince any human that he is whoever he wants to be. Failing that he can always use force. There aren't too many university professors I know who could put up much resistance.

Dark Beast is a genius not an average scientist. He would already know of any of the things I am discussing as he is far superior to even Beast in the field of genetics. Being able to achieve mind boggling things with genetics is a real world issue not just one limited to comics. Dark Beast will take anything we have heard about or can conceivably imagine to the most extreme lengths. Our best scientists are limited by their morals (otherwise we would already have armies of clones as our slaves t while Dark Beast does whatever he likes with his insane mind.

Also don't forget that Doom also has labs that can compete with any in the Marvel universe and Dark Beast is sure to make use of these when he finds them (although he is unlikley to have too much time on his own here):

The remainder of this level is used for Doom's major projects, such as his Cosmic Energizer and his currently inert series of Doomsman androids. The highly advanced and extremely efficient nuclear reactor which powers Castle Doom is located in the fourth sub-basement, as are more secret laboratories and workshops............The second sub-basement holds Doom's primary research & development laboratories. This floor also contained numerous torture chambers, which Doom equipped with various power-inhibiting devices when he converted them into superhuman detention cells.

Dark Beast would have the smarts to use power inhibitors on Wildside as a precaution even if he was unaware of his warping abilities.

I wouldn't put it past him to have kept genetic samples such as hairs of his past superhuman acquaintances for future replication but this is a whole new murky road that I don't have time to debate right now.

As for the robots, where is he getting these tools? He's always been given the best tools to work with, but right now he is on his own. Actually, I have read that he was last seen with Callisto, so he isn't on his own, but I highly doubt she has the resources necessary for him to build robots and tamper with himself genetically.

I didn't say he definitely would use robots by remote. I was just using that as an example of the unlimited and unpredictable ideas that his devious mind can come up with.

While we're on the topic though tools will be plentiful:

The remainder of this level is used for Doom's major projects, such as his Cosmic Energizer and his currently inert series of Doomsman androids. The highly advanced and extremely efficient nuclear reactor which powers Castle Doom is located in the fourth sub-basement, as are more secret laboratories and workshops. Doom's magical summoning room is also located on this level, as is a supplemental robot construction facility.

As for him being a tactician, I agree that while he isn't 616 Beast smart, he is still very smart. The main problem would be the location though. Castle Doom has a way of messing with even the best of plans. And in close range, his strength, agility, and smarts won't matter when Wildside is messing with his reality

I don't follow this logic. Superhuman agility is surely extremely useful in close range. Intelligence, quick thinking and tactical smarts are also useful even in a point blank range streetfight, never mind an interactive environment where the location can aid you greatly. Also strength is surely only useful at close range.

Edit (sorry I misread your last point): I doubt that Wildside will be able to maintain this reality warping effectively while being struck repeatedly and mercilessly with the force of Dark Beast (which is now genetically enhanced to extremes).

You see, I believe that dark Beast would think himself smart enough to take control of Castle Doom's defenses too. The only problem is, that I don't believe he actually could. He isn't as smart as 616 Beast in the area of computers and whatnot, and even if he was there is one major problem: these are Doom's computers. In all honesty, he would try and hack into them, and then the rain of **** would be neverending upon Dark Beast. Doom probably has teh best security systems on his computers and once someone tried to hack into them, Doombots would undoubtedly search them out. The biggest thing Wildside has to fear form this is that he won't even get the chance to kill Dark Beast since the Doombots will take care of it for him.

Doombots can't win the match for you on their own unless you actively use them to help you:

Doombots will not attack the participants, unless your character would be able to do something with them to help in his/her match.

Also 616 Beast is not the only character in the world who can hack high level computers effectively. Dark Beast is one of the Marvel Universe's leaders (alongside the likes of Sinister) in the field of genetics (considerably ahead of 616 Beast). He surely uses some of the MU's best computers everyday to break genetic structures and codes. Doom's computers will be on a similar level to those he is used to using. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Beast has hacked the genetic databases of governments and leading research companies to steal their work but I can't back this up so it should probably be written of as speculation In any case this is not a focal point of my debate so I'm happy to let any hacking of computers style argument rest if you are

On the other hand, while Wildside isn't a genious like Beast, he isn't an idiot either. He knows where he is, and he knows that being in Castle Doom means always being in danger. He will tread very carefully, and his increased senses will let him detect quite a few traps. While his intellect might let Beast get through the same trap a little quicker, Wildside would still get through. And he wouldn't then use the Computer of Death afterwards.

Yeah even though Dark Beast will evade traps more easily and quickly with his speed, agility and intellect advantages, I'm not claiming either character will be caught as the match will be a bit of an anticlimax if that happens and we'll have nothing to talk about

Dark Beast is very smart, but he has no resources to take advatnage of his intelligence. Even if he could alter himslef, he won't know the best way to alter himself to fight Wildside, and ultimately his knowledge will be his undoing as he tries to hack in Doom's computers which will do nothing but create a lot of pain for himself.

I've not made any reference to Dark Beast altering himself with Wildside in mind, only altering himself knowing there is a possibility of facing a true badass, thereby forcing him to enhance every thing about himself that he can within the given time limits.

This is not about a character being defeated by the defences of the location as Phaed has pointed about. Wildside needs to be able to defeat him to claim a victory.

Anyway you've provoked my lazy ass into participating in this interesting debate, so thanks, I've enjoyed it very much

WINNER = DARK BEAST