Contest of Marvels II Thread 3

Phaedrus45 · Nov 24, 2006

More Rebuttal:

JewishHobbit said:
The only main weakness that she has is electricity, and Deadgirl has no expertise in that. One could say that they are in a school, and that a means to create electricity could be found... but Deadgirl's never been shown as intelligent beyond that of an average girl. She'd be about as good at finding or conducting electricity as anyone else... which means it won't be found. Not only that, but Mercury also knows that her weakness is Electricity, and being familiar with schools, will know where to find it, how to keep away from it, etc. It'd be hard for Deadgirl to tag her with electricity.

I want to focus on this area. As I've stated, Dead Girl can communicate with the dead. She would easily gain knowledge of electricity from a variety of sources, and a few would be able to explain to her how it could work. In fact, the people who even designed the University are probably dead by now, and can point out electrical designs of the establishment. Now, I want to point out one important part that comes into play here and later in this battle:

"[Dead Girl] can also become intangible and walk on air, transform her hands into claws, and otherwise alter her body to an unclear extent."

So, with her intangiblity, she can grasp electrical wires and the such if need be. She can easily gain access to areas within the University that would be dangerous for Mercury. Plus, being able to walk on air and be intangible makes it hard for these supposed "death blows" that my opponent believes his character would do.

Okay, so it sounds like it'd be hard for Mercury to physically beat Deadgirl too.. right? Wrong! Here's why. Though Deadgirl can come back to life after death... she does have to be dead first... and even if she is dead for a moment... that moment is all that's needed to declare victory.

This is something I also want to address. Dead Girl, when she has died, comes back to life almost immediately. (Usually, it's from something unexpected, which wouldn't be the case in this one-on-one battle.) Yet, you're taking a rule saying you need to just take your opponent out of battle...and, even if it's for seconds, you say you win??!!?? I call foul again. Dead Girl isn't defeated, you've just delayed her attack. Even in my match with Famine vs. Lady Deathstrike, I had to show that Famine could incapacitate Lady Deathstrike for a suitable amount of time.

But, let's look at your method of attack:;

Mercury will probably be a little intimidated by facing a true to life X-Static, that she'll be extra nervous and cautious. She will hide and travel in small hiden forms, such as a small line of metal along the crevis between the floor and wall, or the wall and cieling. She will travel on the bottom of steps, or on the side of elevators, what have you.

I point out my previous quote:

"Mercury's body is composed of non-toxic mercury, which she can reshape or solidify at will, although she is still inexperienced in shape-shifting."

Mercury simply doesn't have the ability to do all that you claim she can. Remember, she is a fairly new student at Xavier's, learning to handle her powers.

In the battle, Mercury will claim victory by initiating a physical assault. Her nerves will be shot by facing a professional, and she will go all out on her foe. She will form her arms and form into knives (as she commonly does) and other such battle arsenal, and she will just tear Deadgirl to pieces.

I like your approach. Regardless of all the earlier stuff that I highly dispute, Dead Girl will make herself available to Mercury's initial assault, because Dead Girl will be intangible. This way, she has drawn out her opponent, and her opponent will be unable to effect her.

She will launch the attack and take a chunk out of Deadgirl's head, and run down her while jutting razors through her and cutting her to pieces. A quick assault. Mercury will know of Deadgirl's floating, phasing, ghost abilities, and will know that a quick assault is needed, and a quick death. Don't give her the chance to go ghost (to quote danny phantom) Deadgirl can heal from this and can return from the dead... but until she does, she is out... and Mercury is victorious.

This whole statement is ridiculous. Why would Dead Girl make herself tangible in the first place, when remaining intangible would be the easiest tactic to draw out her opponent without having an attack effect her? And, I want to point out to the voters that having Mercury be so deadly and vicious isn't like her character in the least bit. It sounds like you're describing Dead Girl.

Here are some things that Dead Girl has done to her opponents:

*Ripped an opponents heart out.

*Strangled an opponent with another victim's intestines.

*Ripped a soldier's eyes out.

My character has history of being ruthless....yours has no such history.

Okay, now I know some of you are thinking "that's kinda viscious for Mercury, and out of character, as she's a sweat girl." This is correct, however you have to think of it this way. Deadgirl is a television celebrity. Mercury knows her real well, and simple school library searches during preptime can get Mercury all the info on Deadgirl that she wants. She will know of Deadgirl's abilities, and will assume that she will be able to heal from this and return alive. She knows that her assault is rough, but not lethal, and that all will be well in a matter of minutes, thus, she would have no problem with the assault. And let's not forget, she was trained by Emma Frost. She has it in her. And if this assault does somehow kill Deadgirl... how was Mercury to know it would? She's survived such things before... she wouldn't have known better... not out of character at all.

You don't change your character over night. To be so ruthless and cold-blooded isn't a switch you can turn on or off. Mercury would be traumatized to act in such a fashion. It's against your character's moral code. (And, those students who were trained by Emma constantly rebeled against her, if you want to bring that up.) Plus, I continue to bring up the fact that Mercury wouldn't get the initial jump on Dead Girl, because Dead Girl would be intangible. And, removing Dead Girl's limbs and body won't hurt her; it would just make more parts to attack her with at different angles.

Winner = Dead Girl

Harlekin · Nov 24, 2006

About X-Statix

I again refer you to the example of Washout, who first appeared in X-Force #129 (that's a year after it started featuring the X-Statix team, and the last issue before the title actually became X-Statix), and later joined up with Weapon X; A regular X-Men title that even had a little crossover of sorts with the Uncanny X-Men team.

Similarly, Daap, a creature resembling Doop (if it wasn't Doop himself) showed up in X-Men, and interacted with Polaris. As for parodies not being able to be in continuity with other titles, I point you to Deadpool, Ambush Bug (in DC), GLA and the latest Defenders mini-series.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that X-Statix is not a part of regular 616. Sure, Dr. Strange showed a different side to what we're used to, but he did so as well in the last Defenders mini, which we also assume to be canon, even though it depicted the Silver Surfer as a complete idiot. Likewise, Squirrel Girl, now a parody piece, is a part of regular canon.

There was absolutely nothing outright stating that X-Statix was not canon, and they are shown to be interacting with mainstream characters like Professor X, Wolverine and even the Avengers. Just because something is not referred does not mean it doesn't exist. How long did the X-Men and Uncanny X-Men titles go without nary a mention of the other? How many people have wondered about the in-canon status of Astonishing X-Men?

If we look at the pure facts, there is no reason to disregard X-Statix as being an alternate reality.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 24, 2006

JewishHobbit · Nov 24, 2006

Phaedrus45 said:
Wow. That's really stretching it. I totally disagree here on so many things you've stated. First, as I pointed out above, X-Statix has never been mentioned in a regular X-Men or X-Men related comic. The assumption would then imply that this would be an alternate universe. Sure, we've heard about Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt; but, show me one instance where in the normal 616 that X-Statix members were talked about. (Mini series, like Wolverine/Doop are clearly meant for humor, and cannot in any way be taken seriously as part of the 616.)

Whether they were mentioned or guest stared in any X-Men comic is irrelivent. The writers nor anyone at Marvel have ever stated that the stories were out of continuity, therefor, they remain IN continuity. Just because it's differant, and just because those of us who didn't like the feel of the book wished it wasn't in continuity... we can't just assume that it wasn't without it having been stated. I found a few of your previously quoted quotes, and I know at least a few of them were just people talking on message boards, or on fan reviews... nothing official. I've heard people say stuff like Draco, Sins Past, and Xorneto were out of continuity because they didn't like them... doesn't mean they were. And even moreso... X-statix started in the X-Force book... taking over a major IN CONTINUITY X-Book. As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to state their case right there.

That being said... it annoys me because I know for a fact that I spotted someone wearing a Doop tee-shirt in a normal X-Men comic (I remember it because it tickled me), but I can't remember where. I'll keep looking... but until then, here's some stuff to chew on if the paragraph above doesn't convince you.

1) As mentioned, X-Statix took over the X-Force name (In continuity). Issue 117 had the original X-Force show up angry that they took their name, and they faught. It seems to me that this is a bit of continuity between the old X-Force and the new X-Force.

2) The X-Statix group, while still under the X-Force name, guest stared in the book "The Brotherhood" and pretty much killed them all. That book was also never declaired out of continuity, and apparently had Cable and the X-Men in it as well (issue 8 apparently). I never read the book, but if you're going to claim odd books out of continuity, are you willing to claim two out of continuity to convince voters?

3) As Harlekin mentioned above, and I would have mentioned also, Washout from the Weapon X books first appeared in X-Force 129 (the last issue of the title, just before it was relaunched as X-Statix) physically and by name. He was trying out to be an X-Statix member and was turned down. There's one X-Statix character that was in both X-Statix, and a mainstream X-Men book.

Here's a bio that mentions it also.

4) A loose mention, but Polaris and Havoc did encounter one of Doop's race race prior to the recent Apocalypse storyline named Daap. Not much, but something to think of.

There's some food for thought. Now I have never once doubted that X-Statix was in continuity (much to my annoyance), and I'm shocked to find that you truly do. I've never once seen a sign of them being out of continuity, and I think the X-Men appearances/Avengers appearances in the X-Force/X-Statix book were all written in continuity with what was going on in their own books at that time. In my opinion, there's no question that X-Statix was just a bad time of 616's continuity.

Second, we've stated we cannot use current storyline's; but, the Nimrod storyline is seperate from the William Stryker storyline. There is a break in the action, so to speak, that is very clear. Just because Nimrod was being used as a prologue to a future storyline doesn't blend it all together into one story. The bus incident happened at the very beginning of Decimation; and to try to state it cannot be included is taking a rule and bending totally to try to manipulate the voters. Basically, we have already stated that their just needs to be a break in the action; which, in this case, there clearly has been.

I really don't remember making any rule saying there can be a break in storyilne, I remember saying that any current storyline is omited. I'm not calling you a liar, I just really don't remember that being added to the rules. Anyhow, it's been stated from day one of the new writers that the first twelve issues of their run was one storyline split into three sections. It was all one storyline of Stryker using Nimrod to kill the New X-Men, and Nimrod's actions as a result of it. Heck, the trades are even titles the same (Childhood's End Volume 1-3). I don't think that any of the New X-Men should be counted after House of M. The specific labels we put mutants "Pre-HOM" were those depowered. There was no specifications for anyone due to storyline restrictions. It sucks that a lot of Mercury's recent experiences would be erased, but I do feel that this is what the rules are calling for.

To simply point out the flaw in this argument, I quote the source:

"Mercury's body is composed of non-toxic mercury, which she can reshape or solidify at will, although she is still inexperienced in shape-shifting."

Simply put, she ain't all that. She is still inexperienced, and to compare her to the "Terminator dude" is showing you are still clearly trying to make your character more powerful and experienced than she clearly is. This character is a team player who has no experience in "one on one" situations.

A quote from Wiki itself states... "It has also been said by her creators that she can potentially do anything the T-1000, from 1991 film Terminator 2: Judgment Day, can. "

That is what I was going off of, and the things she's done in the comics reflects it. She's turned into a puddle and formed her head out of it. She's morphed her hands into razers.. greatly exaggerated her form for strength. Formed a mallet shape out of her hand and was able to break ground with it, etc. What exactly can the T-1000 do that she can't? I'm not trying to make my character sound more powerful.... the writers and comics themselves have done that just fine. This is just fact, plain and simple.

While Dead Girl might not be experienced with electricity, she can speak with the dead...some of who ARE experienced with electricity. And, the fight is at a school which is filled with electricity. How exactly is she going to stay away from it? Even outside, the whole place will be filled with light from the lamps around campus.

Deadgirl can speak with the dead by touching them, or via astral plane. The problem with this is this, there's no dead in the school, so she can't touch anyone, and if she leaves to enter the astral plane, then she's left the battle field and can be considered removed from battle and gone. Now she can use this power in preptime, but let's think about it. I am strongly still standing on the notion that no Childhood's End storyline be included, so what other characters would she have to talk to? No one who knows Mercury has died before that, and no one would know about her or her weakness. She would know nothing about her. It isn't like she's EVER been a major character enough for anyone outside of the main X-Men to know of her, and that's only recently.

Now if she manages to put two and two together that electricity doesn't go well with mercury, she still has to figure out how to use it, and to get Mercury toward it. Maybe some dead people can give her ideas, but they'd be very basic (unless she somehow finds an exact dead person who knows a lot about electricity from the ESU who would know it's layout and systems), and Deadgirl would have to expose the electricity without being fried first herself. Again, Deadgirl's got the intelligence of an average angst-ridden teenager. It's possible I suppose, but I just don't see it happening.

I really don't need to quote much more, because the problem with the whole argument can be found in the first few sentences. Mercury is not one to try and kill someone. She's one of the good guys, and also very young. To kill someone would cause her such mental grief, she'd be unable to handle it.

I agree that she wouldn't, and that leads me to the paragraph I wrote completely explaining why it would work. I know you don't think that she would know Deadgirl, but the story's never been stated out of continuity, just wondered if it was. You can't take people's opinions or wonders, and state them fact, because until Marvel says flat out 'X-Statix stories are out of continuity" then they are IN continuity... no more questions, nor more debates. That's just fact. That argument is dead. Mercury would know EVERYTHING about Deadgirl, and would know that she would revive just fine. She would kill her, or at least wound her enough to knock her out to win the match. She knows that Deadgirl would come back to life, and that would help with any grief she may have to deal with. And let's not forget again, she's Emma's student. She's been taught to fight this way.

As I've explained in my opening argument, Mercury wouldn't know a damn thing about Dead Girl. Again, them and their "television celebrity" have never been discussed in the real 616. As pointed out,

"There has been some question as to whether the series is connected to the rest of Marvel continuity"

Again... never officially stated to be out of continuity, no grounds to stand on. Also note the other stuff I stated above. Your argument is flat and dead. Here's a rose.

and we all know Dr. Strange is not having a romantic involvement EVER to be mentioned in a regular Dr. Strange story. To take stories revolving around X-Statix and their members and saying they are part of 616 is like taking Spidey Super Stories and saying Spider-Man can defeat Thanos that easily.

I guess I could ask... Dr. Strange hasn't had much of his own story in HOW LONG?!!! He's merely guest star status these days. However, I won't focus on this much as I haven't read the new mini and I don't know anything about it. The story could COMPLETELY be out of continuity for all I know... but Deadgirl in the previous X-statix/X-force comics are in continuity, and that's all that matters. (and if I'm not mistaken... those old Spidey Super stories have officially been erased from continuity).

So the main part of your argument against mine seems to be leaning on two aspects... 1) Based on whether X-Statix is in continuity or not, and 2) if Mercury is pre-HOM or Post/Pre-Nimrod. I think I've debated both of those points well enough. I really don't think that either is an opinionated matter, as both would be more fact toward what I've been saying. As stated, you simply can't call something out of continuity when it's never been officially stated as out of continuity... that's just without question. And we said from day one that a storyline currently going on when the tourney began cannot be included as continuity, and Childhood's End has been going and just ended this month or last. It's been stated by the writers themselves to be one solid story puting the kids through hell. There's a break in the story here and there, but there's a break in all stories. Heck... Annihilation has long breaks between stories (specifically the 4 minis and the main mini) and we can't include anything from that. The same applies with Childhood's End.

Hmmm... yeah, I think that's enough.

Winner - Mercury

JewishHobbit · Nov 24, 2006

And I actually agree with Harlekin's call that it's simply wrong to call X-Statix out of continuity because people like to believe that it is, when it's never been stated so by the company itself... and I think that was an okay call out.

However, now that I have responded, I think it's fair time for Harlekin to fade out of the conversation (with much due respect). It does kinda teater on the fence of debating for me, and that we don't want. And since Phaed and I are in charge.... leave it to the big kids to argue over

JewishHobbit · Nov 24, 2006

Continuing the Rebuttal of the Rebuttal

Phaedrus45 said:
More Rebuttal:
I want to focus on this area. As I've stated, Dead Girl can communicate with the dead. She would easily gain knowledge of electricity from a variety of sources, and a few would be able to explain to her how it could work. In fact, the people who even designed the University are probably dead by now, and can point out electrical designs of the establishment. Now, I want to point out one important part that comes into play here and later in this battle:

"[Dead Girl] can also become intangible and walk on air, transform her hands into claws, and otherwise alter her body to an unclear extent."

So, with her intangiblity, she can grasp electrical wires and the such if need be. She can easily gain access to areas within the University that would be dangerous for Mercury. Plus, being able to walk on air and be intangible makes it hard for these supposed "death blows" that my opponent believes his character would do.

As I said, she might be able to learn of the electricity aspect of the school, but so does Mercury. You don't think that she's studied electrical currents? She lives in a school, and knows that it's her only weakness. She knows the rooms where the currents run, and where the wires and such are. She knows to dodge them. Also, a little tidbit... if Deadgirl went intangable... she'd just faze through the wires... and I don't see how any of those other powers would help either. The electricity would still run through her. And yes, she can phase through stuff to get to areas, but she would also have to get Mercury there... good luck. And the death blows come at a surprise... easily enough to believe.

This is something I also want to address. Dead Girl, when she has died, comes back to life almost immediately. (Usually, it's from something unexpected, which wouldn't be the case in this one-on-one battle.) Yet, you're taking a rule saying you need to just take your opponent out of battle...and, even if it's for seconds, you say you win??!!?? I call foul again. Dead Girl isn't defeated, you've just delayed her attack. Even in my match with Famine vs. Lady Deathstrike, I had to show that Famine could incapacitate Lady Deathstrike for a suitable amount of time.

Um... that's been a rule since day 1 of last season. If a person is incapacitated for any amount of time (usually for at least a few minutes) then it's declared a victory. If I said seconds earlier, then I may have stretched that one unintentionally... but that said... if Deadgirl is decapitated or ripped in pieces, it takes time to heal. She heals quickly at little things, like gunshots, etc, but to pull herself together, it takes time. At least a few minutes. Mercury's first move is to decapitate... the win follows.

I like your approach. Regardless of all the earlier stuff that I highly dispute, Dead Girl will make herself available to Mercury's initial assault, because Dead Girl will be intangible. This way, she has drawn out her opponent, and her opponent will be unable to effect her.

I find this uncharacteristic of her. I've read every issue of X-Force/X-Statix, and Deadgirl always went into battle solid. She always fought physically (or else she really wouldn't me of much use). Even so, if Mercury attacks, and DG's fazed, she'd have to go solid to recounter her attack... and then it's down to physical assault... and physically there's nothing that Deadgirl can do to hurt Mercury.

NOTE: This is mention much later in debating, but I wanted to move it forward so it's in everyone's mind. If you don't buy Mercury cutting up Deadgirl to knock her out... here's a better way to send her in pieces quickly, leading to Mercury's victory

A little less of a stretch... Anyone, no matter how smart you are,... knows that to make something go boom... you get them really hot, then really cold. I was in Jr. High when I learned of the whatchumacallit that freezes stuff (nitrogen chloride? Hey... it's been years since I was in school, but it'd be fresh in Mercury's mind). Any good science class will have it, and in a major college like this, I'm sure it'll be easy to find and use... not a stretch at all. Mercury can plan ahead and know to look for it. I don't know if we ever made a rule of if the location is known during preptime or not, but if it is, she can go ahead and figure out which room to find it in (online or with a simple phone call). Battle commense... and in a surprise attack, or during physical battle, Mercury launches the stuff at DeadGirl.. freezing her, or however much of her she can drench (I'm not sure how the stuff is usually kept or contained, but being a fresh student, and with some preptime research, Mercury will know how to use it).

Okay, so there's the really cold part... now for the hot. Okay... so if Deadgirl is completely frozen, or even partially frozen... then Mercury can get her to somewhere hot (whatever's nearby). I'm thinking places like the oven in the cafeteria. Maybe a clothes dryer. Maybe if the Science room has some burning chemicals to use.... maybe turn up a bunson burner... Light fire to one of the science tables before or after the freezing and toss her against it once frozen, etc. All she'd have to do is get Deadgirl into heat..... and KABOOM!!!! Sushi!!! Victory!!! Now THAT's something that is within Mercury's ability... heck... you or I could do that. And all she'd have to do to get Deadgirl into the room... is hide in it until she gets there. Just don't go out of the room and wait. Make Deadgirl come to her. It's a kiddish plan, but it works well.

Heck... she doesn't even need to blow her up, or find heat. Just get the stuff to freeze her, and she won't be able to move (can't faze out of your own body, or tear off limbs, etc.). She can't move, she's incappacitated... she loses.

Use your imagination as to however this strategy could be applied

Phaedrus45 · Nov 24, 2006

JewishHobbit said:
Whether they were mentioned or guest stared in any X-Men comic is irrelivent. The writers nor anyone at Marvel have ever stated that the stories were out of continuity, therefor, they remain IN continuity.

But, the same thing can be said that the writers nor anyone at Marvel have ever stated that the stories were in continuity. This argument can be argued either way. And, just because someone where's a doop shirt is regardless. I can point out that spider-man continually makes fun of clones; but, that's just the writer trying to be funny. Either way, I'm going to drop the point. If you guys want it in continuity, it's regardless of my argument. I'll just state that I highly disagree and believe it's up to the individuals judgement. An argument can be made either way, as I've stated.

I really don't remember making any rule saying there can be a break in storyilne, I remember saying that any current storyline is omited. I'm not calling you a liar, I just really don't remember that being added to the rules. Anyhow, it's been stated from day one of the new writers that the first twelve issues of their run was one storyline split into three sections. It was all one storyline of Stryker using Nimrod to kill the New X-Men, and Nimrod's actions as a result of it. Heck, the trades are even titles the same (Childhood's End Volume 1-3). I don't think that any of the New X-Men should be counted after House of M. The specific labels we put mutants "Pre-HOM" were those depowered. There was no specifications for anyone due to storyline restrictions. It sucks that a lot of Mercury's recent experiences would be erased, but I do feel that this is what the rules are calling for.

From my understanding of the rules, this instance really causes lots of concern for future matches. Many disputes can be made that something happening to someone is a long, current storyline will create problems. We made the rule of storylines to counteract any problems that Annihilation and Civil War may cause, or for anything that could happen later in a future comic. As we are including Decimation in our contest, this storyline is part of Decimation at first. When the bus blew up, it was in a Decimation story. When Mercury was brought up, I would venture a guess that everyone figured Decimation events played into effect. And, the Nocturne-Exiles rule is true in a decision that was made.

That said, I will make it easy and say this version of Mercury is pre-HoM for ease of argument. This already has me all riled up, and I have to go out shopping with the family. I might be back later today, or just log on tomorrow and take a break from this. I can tell I really need a break from this.

JewishHobbit · Nov 24, 2006

Yeah... I think I've gotten a bit riled myself. Time to cool down and collect our heads. The X-Statix thing being Continuity I'm adamant on... the Decimation argument reguarding New X-Men I can discuss... though it conflicts the 'current storyline' rule. We'll have to discuss that later though. I'm tired.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 24, 2006

Ok, I've cooled down....I'm going to basically start over and end up editting away a lot of stuff. I don't want to waste the voters time reading through a bunch of stuff that has no relevance to the actual battle. Like I said, I will take Mercury as Pre-HoM. But, I need to actually go through all the Mercury appearances and see how much experience and how she's displayed her powers. And, I would argue the fact of continuity, as I think I have a valid argument...but, in the end I think voters would start to make decisions based on these two arguments than on who would end up actually winning the battle...and, that's something I really don't want to happen.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 25, 2006

Rebuttal:

Deadgirl can speak with the dead by touching them, or via astral plane. The problem with this is this, there's no dead in the school, so she can't touch anyone, and if she leaves to enter the astral plane, then she's left the battle field and can be considered removed from battle and gone. Now she can use this power in preptime, but let's think about it. I am strongly still standing on the notion that no Childhood's End storyline be included, so what other characters would she have to talk to? No one who knows Mercury has died before that, and no one would know about her or her weakness. She would know nothing about her. It isn't like she's EVER been a major character enough for anyone outside of the main X-Men to know of her, and that's only recently.

First, I'd like to point out that there would very likely will be dead people at the University. How, you ask? Since this is a major univerisity that has an extensive science department, there would be cadavars in the school. After all, students need something (or someone) to practice on. These cadavars could be animated. Now, imagine Mercury's reaction to seeing walking dead trying to attack her. That young girl would freak. Plus, over the many years with all the incidents of violence around the university, spirits of the past dead would still be around.

Yes, with prep-time, she'd have an abundance of information from the dead. I've yet to read all of the New X-Men Academy books; but, I did finish with the X-statix entire run. More about Mercury from those books will come tomorrow.

Also, going into the astral plane doesn't make Dr. Strange leave a fight or location; so, why would this effect our fight? A definition of the astral plane within the Marvel Universe is as follows:

An alternate universe in an equivalent space to our own where all matter is composed of ectoplasm. On the astral plane, the life energies and consciousnesses of other beings are discernable to adepts. Adepts can reach the astral plane by psychic, psionic, or magical means. The astral plane is also sometimes called astral dimension, astral realm, spirit realm, or spirit world.

I point out is states "in an equivalent space to our own," and would have the voters imagine when Dr. Strange leaves his body, he doesn't leave the fight area. This astral plane is in the same space as the world we inhabit.

Now if she manages to put two and two together that electricity doesn't go well with mercury, she still has to figure out how to use it, and to get Mercury toward it. Maybe some dead people can give her ideas, but they'd be very basic (unless she somehow finds an exact dead person who knows a lot about electricity from the ESU who would know it's layout and systems), and Deadgirl would have to expose the electricity without being fried first herself. Again, Deadgirl's got the intelligence of an average angst-ridden teenager. It's possible I suppose, but I just don't see it happening.

The thing is, Dead Girl isn't afraid of being harmed. In fact, she doesn't feel it. Dead Girl could simply become transparent, put her arm through Mercury's body, and reform. Mercury would be dead, and Dead Girl would just wait for her arm to be reformed again.

I also want to point out the idea that Dead Girl can be incapacitated for a time being. I looked through all the X-Statix issues, and found instances where she was shot or cut in half. She is still talking in these issues, and it shows she is not incapacitated, as your argument depicts. (The instance where she is shot in issue #12, she is talking throughout the experience. Where her body is severed in half by a large riddling of bullets, she's talking as it's being done to her.

Like I said, tomorrow I will research Mercury and discover how she's shown her talents and what her experience is. One thing you can say about Dead Girl is she's got a lot more experience than Mercury in combat situations.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 25, 2006

Mercury Research:

I've just finished going through all of the New X-Men issues, and my research has covered the following:

An experience Mercury can use only goes up to issue #15. After that, we have House of M, and right after that, Childhoood's End (or Decimation). What you learn is that Mercury did a whole lot of nothing.

Issue #2: Played a game of basketball.
Issue #3: In a team exercise, she was caught spying and removed from the competition by Cyclops. NO ACTION.
Issue #4: Flirted. (You are getting the idea.)
Issue #6: Team against team. She formed the long spike out of her arm for the first time. She treated a member of the New X-Men, but never actually fought. She was quickly taken out of action with a shot of electricity.
Issue #15: We don't see much of her until this issue. A large group of the New X-Men go into battle against The Blob, including Mercury. I've looked at every panel twice....she never gets involved in the match. NO ACTION.

So, far from my research, that's it. She doesn't jump into battle, she's no vicious in the least. She talks more than she acts.

(Later today, I will research New Mutants (vol. 2) and the Hellions mini-series. Right now, they are in my little girls room, and she's taking a nap.)

JewishHobbit · Nov 25, 2006

Okay.... here we go.

Now I no longer have my X-Statix comics, so I have nothing to study and have to go off of memory... so if something is stated wrong, correct me (such as with the astral plane thing. I could have sworn that she actually entered it, but I guess I was wrong on that). And as for Mercury, she picked up more in Hellions. She manages to use stealth and steal from long experienced thieves, and to go into a physical battle with the Kingmaker. Granted, he took her down later, but that's because he had an electric watch or something that he had planned for her from the get go, something Deadgirl doesn't have. So yeah, the Hellions mini shows that she can fight and is willing to do so. And though we can't use Decimation, she had very little training between Hellions and then (as there hasn't been much time passed over those 12 issues), but fights just fine, so it goes to assume that she's already had plenty of training not shown prior to decimation. I won't say she's an expert or anything, but that she can handle herself. Oh, and don't worry about studying New Mutants... she was barely in it, just a background character.

Okay, to the debates:

First, I'd like to point out that there would very likely will be dead people at the University. How, you ask? Since this is a major univerisity that has an extensive science department, there would be cadavars in the school. After all, students need something (or someone) to practice on. These cadavars could be animated. Now, imagine Mercury's reaction to seeing walking dead trying to attack her. That young girl would freak. Plus, over the many years with all the incidents of violence around the university, spirits of the past dead would still be around.

I agree that she would freak about seeing the dead, but she would still be aware of Deadgirl's powers (I'm sticking to my continuity stance) and she would know to expect some odd things. I think that it would still scare the crap out of her, and that would lead her to hide and not confront them (hiding as a puddle under a step or something hard to find). They'd be a major distraction, maybe even a way to get a scream out of her, but I don't see the match being effected too much by them. And as far as getting info about the school from them, they wouldn't have it. They aren't dead bodies that know the school, they were shipped there. So there'd be no useful info to get from them, or the spirits. At least I wouldn't imagine so.

Yes, with prep-time, she'd have an abundance of information from the dead.

I thought we decided that we couldn't spend prep-time on location? Am I remembering that wrong? I very well could be, so I just thought I'd ask.

Also, going into the astral plane doesn't make Dr. Strange leave a fight or location; so, why would this effect our fight? A definition of the astral plane within the Marvel Universe is as follows:

An alternate universe in an equivalent space to our own where all matter is composed of ectoplasm. On the astral plane, the life energies and consciousnesses of other beings are discernable to adepts. Adepts can reach the astral plane by psychic, psionic, or magical means. The astral plane is also sometimes called astral dimension, astral realm, spirit realm, or spirit world.

I point out is states "in an equivalent space to our own," and would have the voters imagine when Dr. Strange leaves his body, he doesn't leave the fight area. This astral plane is in the same space as the world we inhabit.

If I was wrong on this, then that's fine, I'll own up to it. However, if she can go "limbo" during battle time... she'd be putting herself in some major vulnerable positions. Mercury just needs to find her and attack. I'm sticking with my original plan of surprise attack, and this would simply encourage and strengthen that strategy.

The thing is, Dead Girl isn't afraid of being harmed. In fact, she doesn't feel it. Dead Girl could simply become transparent, put her arm through Mercury's body, and reform. Mercury would be dead, and Dead Girl would just wait for her arm to be reformed again.

While I can easily see Deadgirl doing this... but I'm not convince that it would do anything to Mercury. She's liquid, and though it would probably hurt, it isn't like it's ripping her heart out or something. She's had parts of her ripped off before (specifically her hand) and she just reformed it fine (note: that was during childhood's end, but it isn't something that was learned from that time, it's just the way her body is. Not to mention if the original writers say she can do what the T1000 does, that'd also be a trait.) I just don't see this having much effect on her. And also, I don't think I noticed a mention that you didn't believe she could do all that he can... so just for reference, check out Academy X issue 3 I believe, when she was spying under a table. She was outside, then the next panel you can see her as a drip under the table.. then as a puddle with her head hanging from it. She can do that just fine, and she was also able to morph her hand as knives in Academy X, and as maces and such in Hellions, and she could stretch her body like Reed Richards, or a stream and such, as shown in Hellions. She can totally do the T1000 thing.

I also want to point out the idea that Dead Girl can be incapacitated for a time being. I looked through all the X-Statix issues, and found instances where she was shot or cut in half. She is still talking in these issues, and it shows she is not incapacitated, as your argument depicts. (The instance where she is shot in issue #12, she is talking throughout the experience. Where her body is severed in half by a large riddling of bullets, she's talking as it's being done to her.

Huh, that's pretty cool. Anyhow, the initial plan was for her to be decapitated, and I think that'd do it just fine, as she'd need her brain to function, and it would be dislocated from the rest of her head. And if she still manages to talk and start to pull herself back together, I can totally see Mercury sending a liquid metal entral and knocking the head out of the building and away from the body. Knowing that she's fine, I can see her then continue to cut up the body and separate them as well. Now I know that you think that's too rough for Mercury, but I'm sticking with the X-Statix continuity argument and think that she would be eased knowing that it won't kill or hurt her. I'll leave the voters to decide if they agree or not.

And again I'll say though, Deadgirl has a lot of neat tricks... but how exactly is she going to DEFEAT Mercury? I honestly don't see the phazing unphazing thing working on Mercury (at least not to the extent mentioned), and I honestly don't see Deadgirl hitting Mercury with a signifigant amount of electricity. Truthfully, Deadgirl always came accross as kinda flamboyant to me, like she'd enjoy the possibility of physically tearing Mercury limb from limb, and wouldn't go into battle thinking of an eventually calculated victory. She was always more of a brute of death.

Anyhow, yeah, I think it'd be hard for either to actually defeat the other, but I think Mercury has a better chance, and I think I have a more sound plan.

Winner - Mercury

Phaedrus45 · Nov 25, 2006

More about Dead Girl's appearances:

I did get to research Dead Girl's X-Force appearances. So far, I've only seen one time she's been taken out of a battle, and that was in space where these freaky zombie-looking aliens turned her into smudge. (She jumped in front of Tyke, though, to save his life.) That's it, though. I didn't find her getting a foot to the head in all the appearances I looked at; so, I would question which comic that was from. I went through the space adventure twice and didn't see it. (I will say I remember a character having this happen to them...but, I was focusing on Dead Girl and wonder if it was someone else. In reading about each comic from another site, I didn't see reference to that with her, either.)

I still have to dig up my Hellions mini, then my research should be done.

Some Rebuttals:

I agree that she would freak about seeing the dead, but she would still be aware of Deadgirl's powers (I'm sticking to my continuity stance) and she would know to expect some odd things.

As I said, I'll agree to the continuity stance, as it probably benifits me more than it does you. I'll just point out to voters that anything after New X-Men Academy #15 isn't admissable in this argument (excluding the miniseries, of course).

Also, Mercury is a rather new student. She'd have access to who characters are from basic files at Xaviers, but top secret files, files that really delve deep into a character, would not be available to her. She'd have a basic understanding of Dead Girl; but, as Dead Girl and X-Statix is no longer a team with her appearances, she very well might not know the extent of Dead Girl's powers. (In fact, nothing I've read shows that Mercury is very smart. She got caught trying to spy on her teachers, and just seems not very book smart.)

I want to point out that people have died at the school that she'd probably know. One is a definite. Up to her experience at Xavier's, she believes that one of the school's favorite teachers, Northstar, is dead. Dead Girl would be able to take that memory from her mind. Also, The Riot At Xavier's would be on the mind of every student there. Quite a few people lost their lives, including a couple Stepford Cuckoos and Kid Omega. (Kid Omega, at least in Mercury's mind is dead.) Still more images Dead Girl could bring out. Picture small little Mercury seeing those people coming after her.

[/quote]I thought we decided that we couldn't spend prep-time on location? Am I remembering that wrong? I very well could be, so I just thought I'd ask.[/quote]

It's not on location that she would converse with the dead. Yes, you cannot spend time on location before your match. I'm not sure if you read Dead Girl's mini series. (If you didn't, I recommend it. It's really very good and pretty funny.) Dead Girl now resides in the land of the dead, hanging out with such spirits as Gwen Stacy and Mockingbird. She would be able to talk to various dead that would have knowledge of the school and electricity. (Again, talking to the dead is her form of gaining information. You can remove people from a scene, but this is her ability, and she'd use it to her fullest extent.)

If I was wrong on this, then that's fine, I'll own up to it. However, if she can go "limbo" during battle time... she'd be putting herself in some major vulnerable positions. Mercury just needs to find her and attack. I'm sticking with my original plan of surprise attack, and this would simply encourage and strengthen that strategy.

The thing about Mercury is it's not hard to spot. (I remember from my old science classes at school seeing mercury and how easy it would be to detect.) It's extremely shiny, and Mercury is only able to turn herself into giant blobs. She cannot form into lines or anything like the guy from The Terminator. Eventually after much training, it might be possible. But, right now, her experience is very limited. If you look at all her appearances, it's in blob form, and they even show her being rather shiny and easy to detect. Plus, since this is a big University, there would be compounds on school possibly for Mercury detection and clean up. Powdered Sulfur sure wouldn't be to good to land on Mercury.

I don't think I noticed a mention that you didn't believe she could do all that he can... so just for reference, check out Academy X issue 3 I believe, when she was spying under a table. She was outside, then the next panel you can see her as a drip under the table.. then as a puddle with her head hanging from it. She can do that just fine, and she was also able to morph her hand as knives in Academy X, and as maces and such in Hellions, and she could stretch her body like Reed Richards, or a stream and such, as shown in Hellions. She can totally do the T1000 thing.

Nope, at the end of New X-Men Academy, she formed her hand into a large projectile for the first time, and mentions that she's not sure how it will work. As noted, she was spotted spying, and that form, like all others, is in a big blob. She cannot form herself into all the things the T1000 can. She just doesn't have the experience.

Huh, that's pretty cool. Anyhow, the initial plan was for her to be decapitated, and I think that'd do it just fine, as she'd need her brain to function, and it would be dislocated from the rest of her head.

I want to point out that this is incorrect. I saw two instances in X-Force and X-Statix where she lost her brains, and still was able to function normally; she still fought. If she lost her head, the rest of her body would still be controlled. When she gets cut in half, both parts still function. The only time she was taken out of action for a significant period of time was when she was turned into sludge. Basically, from everything I've read and seen, cutting off her head won't do a thing, and loosing her brains definitely doesn't effect her.

And again I'll say though, Deadgirl has a lot of neat tricks... but how exactly is she going to DEFEAT Mercury? I honestly don't see the phazing unphazing thing working on Mercury (at least not to the extent mentioned), and I honestly don't see Deadgirl hitting Mercury with a signifigant amount of electricity. Truthfully, Deadgirl always came accross as kinda flamboyant to me, like she'd enjoy the possibility of physically tearing Mercury limb from limb, and wouldn't go into battle thinking of an eventually calculated victory. She was always more of a brute of death.

I've said how she will defeat her. The entire University is filled with electricty. It's all around her. Plus, she can reanimate the dead corpses to attack her, cause Mercury such terror with images from her mind, and easily knock her out if need be. Mercury, as you said, is going to attack and cut off parts of Dead Girl's body. Now, two portions are attacking Mercury. Maybe even more. (And, I still doubt Mercury could change her spots and be so ruthless. This is a young girl from a privledged family. She is not Wolverine.) Plus, Dead Girl can be intangible when she needs to be. Mercury swings...intangible.

Winner = Dead Girl

JewishHobbit · Nov 25, 2006

Phaedrus45 said:
More about Dead Girl's appearances:

I did get to research Dead Girl's X-Force appearances. So far, I've only seen one time she's been taken out of a battle, and that was in space where these freaky zombie-looking aliens turned her into smudge. (She jumped in front of Tyke, though, to save his life.) That's it, though. I didn't find her getting a foot to the head in all the appearances I looked at; so, I would question which comic that was from. I went through the space adventure twice and didn't see it. (I will say I remember a character having this happen to them...but, I was focusing on Dead Girl and wonder if it was someone else. In reading about each comic from another site, I didn't see reference to that with her, either.)

It was in X-Statix during that Princess of death storyline thing. It was Phat's foot that was blown into space and finally came back into orbit and hit her in the head. However, I tried to look it up and it sounds like it may not have taken her out as long as I remembered... so unless you can verify that I was right (and why would you) I'm going to let go of this argument.

Some Rebuttals:

As I said, I'll agree to the continuity stance, as it probably benifits me more than it does you. I'll just point out to voters that anything after New X-Men Academy #15 isn't admissable in this argument (excluding the miniseries, of course).

Trust me, I'd rather keep the Childhood's End stuff, but I just feel it'd be against the rules.

Also, Mercury is a rather new student. She'd have access to who characters are from basic files at Xaviers, but top secret files, files that really delve deep into a character, would not be available to her. She'd have a basic understanding of Dead Girl; but, as Dead Girl and X-Statix is no longer a team with her appearances, she very well might not know the extent of Dead Girl's powers. (In fact, nothing I've read shows that Mercury is very smart. She got caught trying to spy on her teachers, and just seems not very book smart.)

Deadgirl was a national phenominon like the rest of the X-Force/X-Statix characters. Just going to the Library and using the internet will give her an idea. There'd be thousands of pages devoted to her talking all about her and what she's done and her powers. The problem with fame is that you have no secrets, and X-Statix put her in that category. Mercury doesn't need any special secret files. Nothing's secret.

I want to point out that people have died at the school that she'd probably know. One is a definite. Up to her experience at Xavier's, she believes that one of the school's favorite teachers, Northstar, is dead. Dead Girl would be able to take that memory from her mind. Also, The Riot At Xavier's would be on the mind of every student there. Quite a few people lost their lives, including a couple Stepford Cuckoos and Kid Omega. (Kid Omega, at least in Mercury's mind is dead.) Still more images Dead Girl could bring out. Picture small little Mercury seeing those people coming after her.

This round goes to you. I didn't think about Northstar and those from Morrison's run. Truthfully, I'm not sure that the kids from Morrison's run could count, as Mercury wasn't introduced until right toward the end of Morrison's run (if memory serves me, which it commonly doesn't). Good chance that none of them knew Mercury, nor she them. However, Northstar probably would, so there you go. Mercury would be scared to death for seeing him, but again, she'd know who she's up against, and though I think would flip out initially, she'd eventually come to grips with what she's seeing and focus on the real threat. Of coarse, she'd have to get close enough to Mercury to pull the memories out... in which case Mercury would have already launched her attack.

It's not on location that she would converse with the dead. Yes, you cannot spend time on location before your match. I'm not sure if you read Dead Girl's mini series. (If you didn't, I recommend it. It's really very good and pretty funny.) Dead Girl now resides in the land of the dead, hanging out with such spirits as Gwen Stacy and Mockingbird. She would be able to talk to various dead that would have knowledge of the school and electricity. (Again, talking to the dead is her form of gaining information. You can remove people from a scene, but this is her ability, and she'd use it to her fullest extent.)

No I think this is all fine... but would she know who it was that built the school? Or who to talk to that is familiar with how the electricity works enough to tell her how to harness it as a weapon? Not impossible, but I'm not seeing it. Not to mention I'm not sure that I can see her going through all the trouble of finding them and staging this big plan. Usually she just goes in and kills, no plan involved. She was never shown to be a strategic thinker. She was more savage for the most part. (and no, never read the mini. I got really bored of X-Statix after maybe 5 issues and didn't feel like turning in for the mini.)

The thing about Mercury is it's not hard to spot. (I remember from my old science classes at school seeing mercury and how easy it would be to detect.) It's extremely shiny, and Mercury is only able to turn herself into giant blobs. She cannot form into lines or anything like the guy from The Terminator. Eventually after much training, it might be possible. But, right now, her experience is very limited. If you look at all her appearances, it's in blob form, and they even show her being rather shiny and easy to detect. Plus, since this is a big University, there would be compounds on school possibly for Mercury detection and clean up. Powdered Sulfur sure wouldn't be to good to land on Mercury.

She was shown thining herself out in the Hellions mini as she wrapped herself around Diamond Back. She wasn't pencil thin all over, but mostly, and the parts that weren't that thin were still pretty thin. So even if we just stick with that, that she could only make parts of her that thin (which I find hard to believe) it's still enough to get out of sight. If she stays in the shadows where there's little reflection, underneath things, etc., she shouldn't have much of a problem staying hidden. And in regards of the compounds and Powdered Sulfur... again, I just don't see Deadgirl going through the hassle of learning about these things and how to apply them. I see her seeing a foe and going in for the kill in a physical brawl. I don't recall her ever really using her brains strategically. You could say that Mercury hasn't much either, but she's at least tried, regarding the spying table thing, and a few minor instances in Hellions. I don't remember Deadgirl ever really thinking strategically.

Nope, at the end of New X-Men Academy, she formed her hand into a large projectile for the first time, and mentions that she's not sure how it will work. As noted, she was spotted spying, and that form, like all others, is in a big blob. She cannot form herself into all the things the T1000 can. She just doesn't have the experience.

She can't take other people's forms or anything, but you're belittling her abilities quite a bit here. I present, from the Hellions Mini... Exibit A...

I want to point out that this is incorrect. I saw two instances in X-Force and X-Statix where she lost her brains, and still was able to function normally; she still fought. If she lost her head, the rest of her body would still be controlled. When she gets cut in half, both parts still function. The only time she was taken out of action for a significant period of time was when she was turned into sludge. Basically, from everything I've read and seen, cutting off her head won't do a thing, and loosing her brains definitely doesn't effect her.

Being tired of not remembering, I downloaded a few issues... and I stand corrected. However... there's conflicting reports... as she was officially KILLED and gone by simple bullet fire. Bad writing, but still canon and counts. So it is still possible that enough physical damage can kill or at least stop Deadgirl (as in her exploding in X-Force, and however many bullets it took for her to be killed in X-Statix). So if Mercury attacks quick enough with the idea to disperce Deadgirl enough to stop her, it could very well work. And as stated before... Mercury wouldn't feel too guilty about it, as she knows that Deadgirl will survive, and most probably won't even feel it.

I've said how she will defeat her. The entire University is filled with electricty. It's all around her. Plus, she can reanimate the dead corpses to attack her, cause Mercury such terror with images from her mind, and easily knock her out if need be. Mercury, as you said, is going to attack and cut off parts of Dead Girl's body. Now, two portions are attacking Mercury. Maybe even more. (And, I still doubt Mercury could change her spots and be so ruthless. This is a young girl from a privledged family. She is not Wolverine.) Plus, Dead Girl can be intangible when she needs to be. Mercury swings...intangible.

First off, for my own curiosity, can you share with us when Deadgirl's used her intangablity to fight with? I'm just curious because I read a bio that mentioned her ghost intangable form as a way of walking on air, or flying. And now that I think of it, I don't recall her ever walking through walls, or dodging a punch in that manor. Usually she was just shot, or cut, etc. Did she ever use the power offensivly, or defensively? I downloaded two or three issues, and she never did in any of those. Can you clarify?

And beyond that... the school. I haven't denied that the school is filled with electricity, I've doubted that Deadgirl will know how to harness it. Is she going to flip the switch on and off real fast? Is she going to throw the lightbalb at her? Everytime that she's been tagged with electricity before is when it was on a person, such as Surge's powers, and Kingmaker's watch (made to use against her). Deadgirl isn't much of a thinker (not dumb, but not a thinker). She will know that there's electricity, and so will Mercury. Mercury lives in a school and will know about how the electricity works in the school. She won't go blindly somewhere where it's heaviest (and I'm not even sure where that would be). I find it difficult to figure out how Deadgirl will be able to harness the school's electric power and use it as a weapon.

Regarding the corpses... that would be an effective task, and I think it'd freak Mercury out, but again, she'll know to expect stuff like this, having researched Deadgirl. She may freak for a moment, but she'll hide and get away from them. If they attack her, they won't do much, as only electricity has caused her any real damage. If anything they'll just scare her and distract her. I don't think they'd kill or knock her out at all. She can take the beating and she can get away from them easily, being more versatile.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 26, 2006

JewishHobbit said:
It was in X-Statix during that Princess of death storyline thing. It was Phat's foot that was blown into space and finally came back into orbit and hit her in the head. However, I tried to look it up and it sounds like it may not have taken her out as long as I remembered... so unless you can verify that I was right (and why would you) I'm going to let go of this argument.

I found it. This was when Dead Girl had Phat's foot smack her in the back of the head, spraying her brains all over the place. And, yes, she's still talking to everyone, just asking, "What was that?" She did not get knocked out for a second.

Deadgirl was a national phenominon like the rest of the X-Force/X-Statix characters. Just going to the Library and using the internet will give her an idea. There'd be thousands of pages devoted to her talking all about her and what she's done and her powers. The problem with fame is that you have no secrets, and X-Statix put her in that category. Mercury doesn't need any special secret files. Nothing's secret.

But, with X-Statix, the stuff released was the stuff they wanted released. They had a PR person devoted to creating all the hubbub and scandal. You brought up Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt. Sure, we find out about the little bits of hot gossip, but nobody really knows them. We don't know how good of a father they are, what they do charity-wise, or even if Tom Cruise is really gay. We only get a little bit of their lives. I would ask you, "do you really think you know Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt?" I know I can say for certain I don't. I only know what the media wants me to know. Plus, X-Statix was a rotating team. People died all the time, and Dead Girl was only in the last part of their X-Force run. One can argue the public didn't get to know Dead Girl much, as her run didn't last as long as many of the other members.

No I think this is all fine... but would she know who it was that built the school? Or who to talk to that is familiar with how the electricity works enough to tell her how to harness it as a weapon? Not impossible, but I'm not seeing it. Not to mention I'm not sure that I can see her going through all the trouble of finding them and staging this big plan. Usually she just goes in and kills, no plan involved. She was never shown to be a strategic thinker. She was more savage for the most part. (and no, never read the mini. I got really bored of X-Statix after maybe 5 issues and didn't feel like turning in for the mini.)

Well, first, she's good friends with Gwen Stacy, who went to the University. From one person, you link to another person, and so on and so forth. For me, I see her having to do this. She knows she has to win, and she has knowledge of where to find certain people in this land of the dead. And, as for her not being a strategic thinker, in looking over the stories, I feel she was a good mixture of both. She did just as much talking in all of these stories as being a savage. Plus, she was instrumental in helping Doctor Strange in her miniseries. Her miniseries would be a good example of her strategic thinking.

[qoute]
She was shown thining herself out in the Hellions mini as she wrapped herself around Diamond Back. She wasn't pencil thin all over, but mostly, and the parts that weren't that thin were still pretty thin. So even if we just stick with that, that she could only make parts of her that thin (which I find hard to believe) it's still enough to get out of sight. If she stays in the shadows where there's little reflection, underneath things, etc., she shouldn't have much of a problem staying hidden. And in regards of the compounds and Powdered Sulfur... again, I just don't see Deadgirl going through the hassle of learning about these things and how to apply them. I see her seeing a foe and going in for the kill in a physical brawl. I don't recall her ever really using her brains strategically. You could say that Mercury hasn't much either, but she's at least tried, regarding the spying table thing, and a few minor instances in Hellions. I don't remember Deadgirl ever really thinking strategically.[/quote]

I'll put it this way: When I first saw this match, I thought, "How am I going to fight a person made of Mercury." (Even her name totally gives her away.) I started to research, and my life doesn't even depend upon it. Now, put yourself in Dead Girl's shoes. Could you honestly think that facing someone made of Mercury wouldn't make you do a vast amount of research?

Now, I've found issues 1, 2, and 4 of the Hellions miniseries. I'm still missing issue #3, which is probably your Diamondback reference. But, here is what I've found.

In the entire New Mutants run, Mercury didn't do a damn thing. No action, she'd just pop up every once in a great while.

Hellions #1 = She was behind a force field created by one of her teammates, and knocked some guns out of security guards hands. I stress most of her body was protected by Hellion's force field. That's all that's in the issue.

Hellions #2 = No Action at all. Just lots of talk.

Hellions #4 = Again, she does stretch her body thin, but this causes it to spread out more. She's easily seen. In another panel, she makes her hand into a mace, and hits the bad guy right in the face. He doesn't even get knocked out for a second. (I guess she hits like a girl.) He gets up and shocks her with electricity, and she's rendered unconscious for quite a while. (I guess she didn't learn her lesson afterall.)

I've noticed that her hands never become too sharp, they are more rounded. I've notice she doesn't pack much of a punch; so, I'm doubting her abilities...and willingness...to give a killing blow. (Now, I will find that missing issue #3 to find out the last clue into this mystery. But, so far, I'm not seeing the person that in the future Mercury might be.)

I also will point out that Mercury is a total team player. She's never had to fight someone on her own, unlike Dead Girl who's done a few things by herself. Mercury takes orders, and never seems to do anything on her own.

She can't take other people's forms or anything, but you're belittling her abilities quite a bit here. I present, from the Hellions Mini... Exibit A...

I want to point out that the first picture is not in order. After that first blow, there are some other frames missing. It shows he easily shrugs her off, and as your second picture shows, easily evades her second blow.

The next set of pictures I haven't found yet...but, I will point out that holding Dead Girl won't be that easy, as she can break apart. And, look at the size of Mercury...there won't be any problem finding her.

Being tired of not remembering, I downloaded a few issues... and I stand corrected. However... there's conflicting reports... as she was officially KILLED and gone by simple bullet fire. Bad writing, but still canon and counts. So it is still possible that enough physical damage can kill or at least stop Deadgirl (as in her exploding in X-Force, and however many bullets it took for her to be killed in X-Statix). So if Mercury attacks quick enough with the idea to disperce Deadgirl enough to stop her, it could very well work. And as stated before... Mercury wouldn't feel too guilty about it, as she knows that Deadgirl will survive, and most probably won't even feel it.

The thing I discovered in the last issue is that she got some kind of virus, that left her unable to move. Not sure what the virus was, but if she was shot after that and died (not sure if this is what you're refering to), she was dying anyway from the virus. She couldn't even move. It wasn't the bullets that killed her, it was really the virus. The bullets just ended her life in finality.

[/quote]
First off, for my own curiosity, can you share with us when Deadgirl's used her intangablity to fight with? I'm just curious because I read a bio that mentioned her ghost intangable form as a way of walking on air, or flying. And now that I think of it, I don't recall her ever walking through walls, or dodging a punch in that manor. Usually she was just shot, or cut, etc. Did she ever use the power offensivly, or defensively? I downloaded two or three issues, and she never did in any of those. Can you clarify?[/quote]

I'll do one better. I'll give you a nice picture of her intangibility:

Plus, I quote the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe #4:

Dead Girl can command any body part severed from her and rebuild herself from virtually any physical attack, regardless of how much damage or destruction she sustains, even if reduced to a skeleton. She can safely survive toxic conditions to anyone else. She can also become intanglibe and walk on air, transform her hands into claws, and otherwise alter her body to an unclear extent. She can communicate telepathically with dead spirits either using their physical remains or on the astral plane, temporarily resurrect the recently deceased as zombies or ghosts, and briefly summon images of deceased people from the minds of others. She has above-average strenght and agility.

I will point out that any of the new abilities that she's received in her miniseries wouldn't be known to Mercury.

I want to point out one more thing, showing how Dead Girl is slightly superior to Mercury:

Mercury's stats as per official handbook:

Intelligence = 2
Strength = 2
Speed = 2
Durability = 5
Energy Projection = 1
Fighting Skills = 3

Dead Girl's stats as per official handbook:

Intelligence = 2
Strength = 3
Speed = 3
Durability = 7
Energy Projection = 5
Fighting Skills = 3

From this, you can see that Dead Girl is stronger, faster, and more durable. Plus, I'm got some good energy projection that Mercury doesn't. I said how Mercury fights like a girl, and her strength shows that her punch doesn't have that much power. Also, how will she hit someone who can 1) become intangible and 2) is more fast? She can't.

And beyond that... the school. I haven't denied that the school is filled with electricity, I've doubted that Deadgirl will know how to harness it. Is she going to flip the switch on and off real fast? Is she going to throw the lightbalb at her? Everytime that she's been tagged with electricity before is when it was on a person, such as Surge's powers, and Kingmaker's watch (made to use against her). Deadgirl isn't much of a thinker (not dumb, but not a thinker). She will know that there's electricity, and so will Mercury. Mercury lives in a school and will know about how the electricity works in the school. She won't go blindly somewhere where it's heaviest (and I'm not even sure where that would be). I find it difficult to figure out how Deadgirl will be able to harness the school's electric power and use it as a weapon.

On her own, Dead Girl might have a small bit of trouble thinking about what to use. (Although, there will be wires around, circuit breakers and such where it won't hurt Dead Girl, but will do some damage to Mercury.) But, Dead Girl will ask the spirits of the dead to assist her. This won't be difficult for her. Where she now resides, she had to help Dr. Strange find certain spirits in his quest. And, the science spirits would tell her what to look for in the science area of the school. (Gwen can tell her where this section is, as she was probably always dragging Peter away from this area.)

And, if you think Mercury is smart, that's been proved not too correct. She won't have a team leading her, and she really seems like someone who wouldn't take control of a battle.

Winner = Dead Girl

Phaedrus45 · Nov 26, 2006

JewishHobbit said:

Ok, I finally found issue #3, and I want the voters to know something about the pictures provided. Right after each of those incidents, Mercury was taken out with a quick electric jolt to her system. It's kind of how people can take a passage from the Bible to prove a certain point, but many times it's taken out of context. To me, these pictures don't show the full picture. In fact, all you have to show is the full page with Diamondback, and the voters would get the clear picture of how vulnerable Mercury is.

What's funny is that I don't see Mercury engaging in combat in all of her appearances very often. Yet, the three main battles I can think of, each time she's quickly taken down with an electric jolt. The fourth battle that comes to mind versus The Blob, she didn't even engage in. Everyone else joined the battle, but Mercury wasn't seen, except talking in the background. The voters are to believe that Mercury wouldn't fall for a trap of getting an electric shock, but the evidence is to the contrary. In fact, Issue #3, she gets shocked and knocked out. Then, the next issue, the same thing happens again.

The best indicator of future performance is past behavior. Mercury is 0-3 in the electricity department; so, I'm thinking Dead Girl's chances are pretty darn good.

I've shown in the Official Handbook that Dead Girl has superior abilities to Mercury; it's evident that Mercury's experience is much, much less than Dead Girl's; I've shown Mercury has been quickly removed from a battle in her three big team fights; finally, Mercury is a young girl who's just started learning her abilities and life in general. Facing dead corpses, ghosts from Xavier's school pulled from her mind, and having to face someone one-on-one for the very first time without her teammates to bail her out will just be too much for her system to handle.

Winner = Dead Girl

JewishHobbit · Nov 27, 2006

Phaedrus45 said:
Ok, I finally found issue #3, and I want the voters to know something about the pictures provided. Right after each of those incidents, Mercury was taken out with a quick electric jolt to her system. It's kind of how people can take a passage from the Bible to prove a certain point, but many times it's taken out of context. To me, these pictures don't show the full picture. In fact, all you have to show is the full page with Diamondback, and the voters would get the clear picture of how vulnerable Mercury is.

Um... the point of the pics were to show how strong she was or anything, but rather that she can do T1000 feets... that's all. We've already established that she's week against electricity.

What's funny is that I don't see Mercury engaging in combat in all of her appearances very often. Yet, the three main battles I can think of, each time she's quickly taken down with an electric jolt. The fourth battle that comes to mind versus The Blob, she didn't even engage in. Everyone else joined the battle, but Mercury wasn't seen, except talking in the background. The voters are to believe that Mercury wouldn't fall for a trap of getting an electric shock, but the evidence is to the contrary. In fact, Issue #3, she gets shocked and knocked out. Then, the next issue, the same thing happens again.

She was taken out by electric jolts in each appearances, yes, but in each appearance the jolts were premeditated and in weapon form... which Deadgirl wouldn't have. In Hellions, the guy had watch specifically made to shoot electricity with taking out Mercury in mind... he was prepared and she couldn't have known the watch could do it... therefor she couldn't dodge it. And again, it was in weapon form... something Deadgirl wouldn't have access to (electricity in weapon form I mean). Diamondback was the same, where she had a diamond that could conduct electricity... also something that Mercury couldn't predict, and in weapon form that Deadgirl couldn't produce and has no resource of.

The best indicator of future performance is past behavior. Mercury is 0-3 in the electricity department; so, I'm thinking Dead Girl's chances are pretty darn good.

Now if only Deadgirl could harness electricity as a weapon... but she can't... so I think it's pretty much out of the equation... or at least on the 'long shot' range of things.

JewishHobbit · Nov 27, 2006

Phaedrus45 said:
I found it. This was when Dead Girl had Phat's foot smack her in the back of the head, spraying her brains all over the place. And, yes, she's still talking to everyone, just asking, "What was that?" She did not get knocked out for a second.

But, with X-Statix, the stuff released was the stuff they wanted released. They had a PR person devoted to creating all the hubbub and scandal. You brought up Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt. Sure, we find out about the little bits of hot gossip, but nobody really knows them. We don't know how good of a father they are, what they do charity-wise, or even if Tom Cruise is really gay. We only get a little bit of their lives. I would ask you, "do you really think you know Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt?" I know I can say for certain I don't. I only know what the media wants me to know. Plus, X-Statix was a rotating team. People died all the time, and Dead Girl was only in the last part of their X-Force run. One can argue the public didn't get to know Dead Girl much, as her run didn't last as long as many of the other members.

All that Mercury needs to know is Deadgirl's powers and mindset... which is exactly the types of things that the media would show, and that the PR person would push. The fun of X-Statix was that they were vicious and beat the bad guys. Deadgirl's visciousness would be documented, as well as her powers, as people loved the powers. Mercury may not know Deadgirl's highschool routine, but she'd know all she needs to know about Deadgirl for her match.

And Deadgirl wasn't on the team long? She was one of the longest running members ON the time! She came in maybe four or five issues from the last in X-Force and lasted until the very last issue of X-Statix... 26 issues later, for a total of around 30 issues (the whole series, X-Force-X-Statix was only maybe 40 issues). Trust me... she was a staple and the public knew it.

Well, first, she's good friends with Gwen Stacy, who went to the University. From one person, you link to another person, and so on and so forth. For me, I see her having to do this. She knows she has to win, and she has knowledge of where to find certain people in this land of the dead. And, as for her not being a strategic thinker, in looking over the stories, I feel she was a good mixture of both. She did just as much talking in all of these stories as being a savage. Plus, she was instrumental in helping Doctor Strange in her miniseries. Her miniseries would be a good example of her strategic thinking.

Ah, never read the mini, so I don't know that one. And I never said she was savage, just one to typically go into battle hacking and slashing. And just because Gwen went to the school, doesn't mean that she'd know people who can find a way to harness it's electrical systems into a weapon. Heck, if someone asked me about it from my old school, I couldn't have told them... why should we assume Gwen could?

I'll put it this way: When I first saw this match, I thought, "How am I going to fight a person made of Mercury." (Even her name totally gives her away.) I started to research, and my life doesn't even depend upon it. Now, put yourself in Dead Girl's shoes. Could you honestly think that facing someone made of Mercury wouldn't make you do a vast amount of research?

It'd make her do research yes... but I don't think she'd be able to find the means to defeat the girl. I think in the end she may know that electricity would work, but she wouldn't know how to make it work, and would then plan on using her other powers to try and overwhelm her... which Mercury would expect.

In the entire New Mutants run, Mercury didn't do a damn thing. No action, she'd just pop up every once in a great while.

Which I told you already

I've noticed that her hands never become too sharp, they are more rounded. I've notice she doesn't pack much of a punch; so, I'm doubting her abilities...and willingness...to give a killing blow. (Now, I will find that missing issue #3 to find out the last clue into this mystery. But, so far, I'm not seeing the person that in the future Mercury might be.)[/quote

You're judging her unwilling to kill because she wouldn't kill someone she wouldn't need to? That's why she's a hero! Thing is, she won't kill Deadgirl either, and she know she won't. She'll know how tough that the girl is by video feeds and such, and she'll know what she'll have to do and how hard she'll have to hit. Preptime majorly works for Mercury in this match. And she held back on the kingmaker during the punch, but the one that follows where she punches the ground cracks the ground, showing she has some force behind that punch. She's a hero... she doesn't want to kill anyone, and you can't fault her for that. However, she knows she has to up the ante with Deadgirl, and knows that it won't kill her. I don't have any problem with believing she'd have no problem with this. Also, she does fine with the rounded spears (again, she doesn't want to kill the people she's fighting), but she's also made sharp knives, as in the first example you gave when she did it for the first time in issue 6 or so. She can, she just doesn't often because she doesn't want to kill (being a hero and all). And again with the T1000 thing, the writers themselves, the people that CREATED her... say she can do that type of stuff... I say that counts for something.

I also will point out that Mercury is a total team player. She's never had to fight someone on her own, unlike Dead Girl who's done a few things by herself. Mercury takes orders, and never seems to do anything on her own.

Click to expand...

So deadgirl having done a few things alone suddenly makes her an expert in single battle? SHe's a total team player! She didn't do much before X-Force, and she was with the team ever since. I can only think of one time where she acted alone, and that was against a common unpowered doctor who was a necrophiliac... not much of a challenge.

I want to point out that the first picture is not in order. After that first blow, there are some other frames missing. It shows he easily shrugs her off, and as your second picture shows, easily evades her second blow.

Click to expand...

Again... that has nothing to do with the point of why I posted the picture... look, she can form a mace! That was the extent of it. Those were posted in your mentioning that she doesn't have experience to mold herself into anything other than a blob. And you say I'M taking things out of context

The next set of pictures I haven't found yet...but, I will point out that holding Dead Girl won't be that easy, as she can break apart. And, look at the size of Mercury...there won't be any problem finding her.

Click to expand...

Deadgirl isn't a bunch of legos. She can't just 'pop' apart. Now if she's torn limb from limb... then yeah. But she can't just drop her arm. And It won't be hard for Mercury to hide... as I said before. Under steps, in shadows, behind bookshelves, under tables... it's a university! It's not like there's not places to hide behind. And those pictures just go to show that she CAN mold her body. I didn't post it, but look at the issue you read with her being caught under the table. She was shown outside of the room... then you see simple drips under the table, and then her head. She can mush herself into a puddle, etc. to hide and travel. Staying hidden won't be difficult.

The thing I discovered in the last issue is that she got some kind of virus, that left her unable to move. Not sure what the virus was, but if she was shot after that and died (not sure if this is what you're refering to), she was dying anyway from the virus. She couldn't even move. It wasn't the bullets that killed her, it was really the virus. The bullets just ended her life in finality.

Click to expand...

Hmm, don't remember that, but you're probably right. But her being blown to bits in the final X-Force arc still provides ground for my theory. If Mercury messes her up enough, she'll be out for a while.

I'll do one better. I'll give you a nice picture of her intangibility:

Click to expand...

Um... that's a cover. Marvel are not know to have their covers coencide with the insides, nor with the characters. I was hoping for something more definite. A specific example from inside the books.

Plus, I quote the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe #4:

Dead Girl can command any body part severed from her and rebuild herself from virtually any physical attack, regardless of how much damage or destruction she sustains, even if reduced to a skeleton. She can safely survive toxic conditions to anyone else. She can also become intanglibe and walk on air, transform her hands into claws, and otherwise alter her body to an unclear extent. She can communicate telepathically with dead spirits either using their physical remains or on the astral plane, temporarily resurrect the recently deceased as zombies or ghosts, and briefly summon images of deceased people from the minds of others. She has above-average strenght and agility.

I will point out that any of the new abilities that she's received in her miniseries wouldn't be known to Mercury.

Click to expand...

Not sure what you're trying to point out here... and I remember all those powers from the X-Statix series. Was something new shown in the Deadgirl mini?

I want to point out one more thing, showing how Dead Girl is slightly superior to Mercury:

Mercury's stats as per official handbook:

Intelligence = 2
Strength = 2
Speed = 2
Durability = 5
Energy Projection = 1
Fighting Skills = 3

Dead Girl's stats as per official handbook:

Intelligence = 2
Strength = 3
Speed = 3
Durability = 7
Energy Projection = 5
Fighting Skills = 3

From this, you can see that Dead Girl is stronger, faster, and more durable. Plus, I'm got some good energy projection that Mercury doesn't. I said how Mercury fights like a girl, and her strength shows that her punch doesn't have that much power. Also, how will she hit someone who can 1) become intangible and 2) is more fast? She can't.

Click to expand...

She's only slightly faster... and trust me. We've seen it time and time again where faster people get hit by slower people. Heck... very few are as fast as Quicksilver in the Marvel universe, and he's gotten his butt handed to him time and again. One slight advance in speed isn't going to win the match.

The phasing thing I'm still iffy on until clarification is shown (not in cover, because it's known to the annoyance of all that covers are pretty much useless).

And strength is really dependant on how it's used. Truthfully, if Mercury can crack the floor with a punch, I'd say she can pack a punch.

And, if you think Mercury is smart, that's been proved not too correct. She won't have a team leading her, and she really seems like someone who wouldn't take control of a battle.

Click to expand...

I never said she was smart... she's average intelligence, same as Deadgirl. And I'm not sure what you mean by the 'won't have a team leading her'. She's a strong member of the Hellions, and works under the X-Men, so I'm confused. And she's never had the chance, being a member of a team. Not fair to assume someone wouldn't when it's not shown to be in or out of character for her to do so. She's never had the chance. She did step out and attack the kingmaker when the others were busy in the final issue of Hellions... so I can see her taking initiative when needed.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 27, 2006

JewishHobbit said:
All that Mercury needs to know is Deadgirl's powers and mindset... which is exactly the types of things that the media would show, and that the PR person would push. The fun of X-Statix was that they were vicious and beat the bad guys. Deadgirl's visciousness would be documented, as well as her powers, as people loved the powers. Mercury may not know Deadgirl's highschool routine, but she'd know all she needs to know about Deadgirl for her match.

And Deadgirl wasn't on the team long? She was one of the longest running members ON the time! She came in maybe four or five issues from the last in X-Force and lasted until the very last issue of X-Statix... 26 issues later, for a total of around 30 issues (the whole series, X-Force-X-Statix was only maybe 40 issues). Trust me... she was a staple and the public knew it.

When X-Statix first started in X-Force, they were supposedly a well established team. From the moment Dead Girl joined to the time of X-Statix's demise, it could easily be argued that it doesn't represent a big amount of time. (Comic time is not the same as ours, as everyone knows. I would venture that the amount of time of her joining to her supposed demise would be less than 6 months.) She's definitely not one of the longest running members of the team, in terms of how the public would know her. They probably hardly got to know her at all.

Ah, never read the mini, so I don't know that one. And I never said she was savage, just one to typically go into battle hacking and slashing. And just because Gwen went to the school, doesn't mean that she'd know people who can find a way to harness it's electrical systems into a weapon. Heck, if someone asked me about it from my old school, I couldn't have told them... why should we assume Gwen could?

Gwen is just one resource, who can give her "the lay of the land." In addition to Gwen, Dead Girl spoke with Harry Osborn, Moira MacTaggart and Scott Lang. In fact, Scott Lang is experienced in electronics, and Moira would know about science, also. Dead Girl has a lot of resources to use. In the miniseries, Dead Girl knew who to talk to and where to go.

It'd make her do research yes... but I don't think she'd be able to find the means to defeat the girl. I think in the end she may know that electricity would work, but she wouldn't know how to make it work, and would then plan on using her other powers to try and overwhelm her... which Mercury would expect.

Someone like Moira and Scott could make her understand what to look for and what to use in simple layman's terms. Gwen and Harry would give her an idea of where to go. Heck, even finding anything with a long cord to plug into a wall, cut off the appliance so the wires are available, and shock Mercury with would work. Like I said, there will be an abundance of electricity around the school, and there will be quite a bit of corded items in which to use.

You're judging her unwilling to kill because she wouldn't kill someone she wouldn't need to? That's why she's a hero! Thing is, she won't kill Deadgirl either, and she know she won't. She'll know how tough that the girl is by video feeds and such, and she'll know what she'll have to do and how hard she'll have to hit. Preptime majorly works for Mercury in this match. And she held back on the kingmaker during the punch, but the one that follows where she punches the ground cracks the ground, showing she has some force behind that punch.

There is nothing in that picture that showed she held back on her punch with the Kingmaker. In fact, it appears to me like she hit him with everything she had. And, since Dead Girl died at the end of X-Statix, Mercury might very well think she can kill Dead Girl. I would also point out that Mercury has never stabbed anyone with a sharp talon yet. She's only treated to do it once...but, she couldn't do it. It's not in her nature.

Again, I point out the only time Dead Girl's been taken out of action is when she got turned to sludge (Mercury wouldn't be able to do this...she could only hit, slice, and possibly stab) and in the last issue where she contracted a deadly virus and died off scene.

So deadgirl having done a few things alone suddenly makes her an expert in single battle? SHe's a total team player! She didn't do much before X-Force, and she was with the team ever since. I can only think of one time where she acted alone, and that was against a common unpowered doctor who was a necrophiliac... not much of a challenge.

Her miniseries wasn't a team book. She did a lot of things on her own, and she's the one who did most of Dr. Strange's leg work.

Plus, if you look at battle experiences comparing New X-Men Academy to X-Statix, you'll see Mercury surrounded by her teammates, while Dead Girl and the other team members constantly split off. Dead Girl knows how to break away from her team and fight alone...Mercury has never fought alone. That's a big difference.

Deadgirl isn't a bunch of legos. She can't just 'pop' apart. Now if she's torn limb from limb... then yeah. But she can't just drop her arm. And It won't be hard for Mercury to hide... as I said before. Under steps, in shadows, behind bookshelves, under tables... it's a university! It's not like there's not places to hide behind. And those pictures just go to show that she CAN mold her body. I didn't post it, but look at the issue you read with her being caught under the table. She was shown outside of the room... then you see simple drips under the table, and then her head. She can mush herself into a puddle, etc. to hide and travel. Staying hidden won't be difficult.

But, as I keep pointing out, Mercury has a large puddle every time. And, Mercury is a real easy metal to spot. Even if she hid on something metallic, Mercury would stand out. Anyone whose seen Mercury would know it would be very difficult for a big blob of Mercury to stay hidden. Plus, Dead Girl's official bio from the Official Handbook of Marvel Comics states she can be intangible. She just has to stay intangible until she finds Mercury.

Hmm, don't remember that, but you're probably right. But her being blown to bits in the final X-Force arc still provides ground for my theory. If Mercury messes her up enough, she'll be out for a while.

The only thing Mercury could do is keep slicing and stabbing her, thus creating more parts for Dead Girl to use. There is no way she has the means to shoot rays of dead at her, reducing her to sludge. (I'll point out that Dead Girl was turned to sludge by three creatures who shot rays at another target, that Dead Girl jumped in front of to save. Mercury cannot do this.)

Um... that's a cover. Marvel are not know to have their covers coencide with the insides, nor with the characters. I was hoping for something more definite. A specific example from inside the books.

The cover gives a visual...the quote from the Official Handbook proves it. Written proof from the Official Handbook shouldn't be disputed, as maybe something we read on the internet can.

Dead Girl will not fight someone with her intangibility; but, she will keep herself safe until Mercury is located. (This would only be common sense. Like I said, if I thought of it right away, my character would think it would only make sense, too.) Although, the intangibility would would if Mercury is looking like she's going to strike.

She's only slightly faster... and trust me. We've seen it time and time again where faster people get hit by slower people. Heck... very few are as fast as Quicksilver in the Marvel universe, and he's gotten his butt handed to him time and again. One slight advance in speed isn't going to win the match.

The phasing thing I'm still iffy on until clarification is shown (not in cover, because it's known to the annoyance of all that covers are pretty much useless).

And strength is really dependant on how it's used. Truthfully, if Mercury can crack the floor with a punch, I'd say she can pack a punch.

Basically, all three things have been proven with the Official Handbook. Dead Girl is faster and stronger, and she can become intangible. For me, nothing more needs to be proved on that front. As for how much of a punch she can pack, I'll just point out that she has never shown proof that her punches can pack much of a wallop. And, her hitting Dead Girl won't do her any good, anyway; Dead Girl's durability rating is as high as it can go in the Official chart, right at 7.

Anything else I write will probably be a repeat of what I've said before. Unless I see a statement I absolutely have to rebutt, I'll end my debate now. (Hippy got me started signing off on a debate, and I think it works well; that way an opponent doesn't have to worry about a last minute argument coming out of left field.) It's been a pleasure debating with you, JH, and I'll know to expect a drop-down, dragged-out fight if we square off again. I'm glad we both had a chance to take a breather on Friday and regroup.

Winner = You guys know by now...it's up to the voters.

JewishHobbit · Nov 27, 2006

Phaedrus45 said:
When X-Statix first started in X-Force, they were supposedly a well established team. From the moment Dead Girl joined to the time of X-Statix's demise, it could easily be argued that it doesn't represent a big amount of time. (Comic time is not the same as ours, as everyone knows. I would venture that the amount of time of her joining to her supposed demise would be less than 6 months.) She's definitely not one of the longest running members of the team, in terms of how the public would know her. They probably hardly got to know her at all.

X-Force 116-129 = 14 issues
X-Statix 1-26 = 26 issues

Deadgirl entered the scene around X-Force 125 I think... and she was even mentioned before that by people asking if she was going to join. That means of the total of 40 issues... she was a main character for 31 of them. I think that she can safely be assumed to be one of the well known characters. People like Artie, El Guapo?, and Spike could be considered not well knowns, but Deadgirl was a staple of the title. And yes, comic time is differant from our time, but those 31 issues of the book passed enough time where I think she'd be just as well known as Orphan, Anarchist, Phat, Vivisector, and U-Go-Girl. Finding info on her will be simple.

There is nothing in that picture that showed she held back on her punch with the Kingmaker. In fact, it appears to me like she hit him with everything she had. And, since Dead Girl died at the end of X-Statix, Mercury might very well think she can kill Dead Girl. I would also point out that Mercury has never stabbed anyone with a sharp talon yet. She's only treated to do it once...but, she couldn't do it. It's not in her nature.

The fact that the punch didn't knock him out, but that her next one cracked the floor shows me that she held back... or that he was majorly resilient. She has the force behind her punch... she just didn't hit him with it. And if you don't believe she packs a punch... let me see you crack the floor with one punch

And regarding her not being able to stab someone... she's not had the opertunity to do so... at least not like this. She doesn't want to kill anyone... and she knows that she won't kill Dead Girl. Now her death could be known, or not, depending on what got aired, as Doop was killed in that battle also. If it was aired, then there's no problem, as she will know it was the virus that killed her, and that she can be defeated by being severely severed or blown up or whatever. If it didn't get aired, then there's no hesitation. Go for the freddie Kruger look.

Again, I point out the only time Dead Girl's been taken out of action is when she got turned to sludge (Mercury wouldn't be able to do this...she could only hit, slice, and possibly stab) and in the last issue where she contracted a deadly virus and died off scene.

True... some ways for Mercury to take advantage of this...

1) She's a student of Hank McCoy as well (as all students in the school are) and so many of his science lessons would be fresh in her mind. The University is full of science rooms. Therefor... once Mercury learns of the only two times that Deadgirl's been defeated, she'll figure out a way to dismantle the girl, or knock her out at least. She'd figure out chemicles or whatever it takes to be inhaled to knock someone out... or something that causes a violent explosion. If she can somehow get those together, then she can use the science that Hank McCoy teaches all students to take advantage of the info she learns.

2) A little less of a stretch... Anyone, no matter how smart you are,... knows that to make something go boom... you get them really hot, then really cold. I was in Jr. High when I learned of the whatchumacallit that freezes stuff (nitrogen chloride? Hey... it's been years since I was in school, but it'd be fresh in Mercury's mind). Any good science class will have it, and in a major college like this, I'm sure it'll be easy to find and use... not a stretch at all. Mercury can plan ahead and know to look for it. I don't know if we ever made a rule of if the location is known during preptime or not, but if it is, she can go ahead and figure out which room to find it in (online or with a simple phone call). Battle commense... and in a surprise attack, or during physical battle, Mercury launches the stuff at DeadGirl.. freezing her, or however much of her she can drench (I'm not sure how the stuff is usually kept or contained, but being a fresh student, and with some preptime research, Mercury will know how to use it).

Okay, so there's the really cold part... now for the hot. Okay... so if Deadgirl is completely frozen, or even partially frozen... then Mercury can get her to somewhere hot (whatever's nearby). I'm thinking places like the oven in the cafeteria. Maybe a clothes dryer. Maybe if the Science room has some burning chemicals to use.... maybe turn up a bunson burner... Light fire to one of the science tables before or after the freezing and toss her against it once frozen, etc. All she'd have to do is get Deadgirl into heat..... and KABOOM!!!! Sushi!!! Victory!!! Now THAT's something that is within Mercury's ability... heck... you or I could do that. And all she'd have to do to get Deadgirl into the room... is hide in it until she gets there. Just don't go out of the room and wait. Make Deadgirl come to her. It's a kiddish plan, but it works well.

Heck... she doesn't even need to blow her up, or find heat. Just get the stuff to freeze her, and she won't be able to move (can't faze out of your own body, or tear off limbs, etc.). She can't move, she's incappacitated... she loses.

(note: I like this idea, so I'm going to copy and paste it closer to the beginning of the debating thread due to my thinking that many will get tired of reading well before now and will give up. I want this idea seen. Just giving you warning.)

Anything else I write will probably be a repeat of what I've said before. Unless I see a statement I absolutely have to rebutt, I'll end my debate now. (Hippy got me started signing off on a debate, and I think it works well; that way an opponent doesn't have to worry about a last minute argument coming out of left field.) It's been a pleasure debating with you, JH, and I'll know to expect a drop-down, dragged-out fight if we square off again. I'm glad we both had a chance to take a breather on Friday and regroup.

I agree. I'm tired of debating this match anyhow (It better not tie!). I'm also glad we got a breather too. It's turned into a decent/interesting debate since then. Next time, let's just cut straight to that... deal? And, as you said, unless there's something said that I feel needs debated, I'm done.

Winner = You guys know by now...it's up to the voters.

Phaedrus45 · Nov 27, 2006

The only thing I'd want to point out is that extreme cold and extreme heat effects Mercury in real life. So, I think it would stand to reason that would be more detrimental for Mercury. (I thought of this method for fighting Mercury; but, figured it was too much of a stretch to find something that would cause extreme cold or heat.)

JewishHobbit · Nov 27, 2006

It could effect Mercury, but if she isn't the one being hit by it... it's no problem. If Deadgirl would be focusing on electricity, she's not thinking of the nitrogen. And now that I think of it, that could be an interesting combo.

Deadgirl comes at Mercury with a cord or something with electricity popping out of it. Mercury launches the Nitrogen and freezes Deadgirl.. the electricity in her own hand provides the heat and shatters her. There you go... Deadgirl in pieces with absolutely no visciousness required

Phaedrus45 · Nov 28, 2006

Well, you're stretching it, but I'll pass on saying much more than that.

Good debate, my friend. Tomorrow will be interesting.

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