BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

[roach]

I am not attacking his intelligence at all.

I am saying he is not an expert and he should listen to experts.

For the hundredth time (sigh) it is fine to sometimes havd crude tastes, I do too. One should acknowledge it though.

You already responded to this

 

[DA_Champion]

I never said you have been inconsistent with your convenient assertions of blame.

I said you are being inconsistent in the fact you clearly said that "if you disagree with an expert you need to pause and reflect", Goyer and Snyder fall into this category, and if you want to dispute that then, let me say it a different way, they fall into this category relative to you. Thus if you stop being inconsistent and actually apply your own words for to seconds, then: Snyder and Goyer's opinion are worth more than yours and if you disagree with them you need to "pause and reflect..odds are.."

You really wanna hold my hand eh
I'll pass.

Nolan's words are worth more than mine, and I have a genuine respect for each movie where he's been heavily involved. Except for Insomnia, I have not seen that one yet, so I can't yet have an opinion, it's on my shelf I'm not criticizing Nolan because I don't know that he's done anything wrong.

Snyder wasn't the storyteller in this movie. When he was hired, they already had a script. Do I blame Snyder for the story problems? Not for most of them, only for some relatively smaller things. I think he *mostly* did a good job with the things he did have control over, CGI, visuals, score, the cast, sound effects, etc. Regardless of the problems in this movie's story, directing this was a great career move for him, and now he gets a chance to tell a story more in tune with his wishes in the sequel. We'll see how it goes. As far as I can tell, the direction in this movie was mostly quite good.

I'm really only criticising Goyer. You can call him an "expert", but actually he's had a mixed to mediocre career. If you look at his track record, it's not very good.

 

[PacificBoy]

As interesting a debate as that would make(zod is clearly more powerful than he's companions and the final fight vs smallville fight is the visible proof).

I'd personally chalk that up to the reality of comic book adaptation. From Spidey(punching doc ock in the face) to Stark(20 drones with one laser?) to Blade to Batman(vs bane)

it happens.

Sure, strength/skill inconsistencies happen all the time in action and comic flicks. But Zod's inconsistent portrayal made the final fight, in a movie with a series of fights with escalating stakes, less compelling for me.

Clark was going mano a mano against a fully powered Zod in Metropolis -- which is why he couldn't be saving people, his hands were full. Makes sense. But Clark faced down two Kryptonians in Faora and Nam-Ek, while saving people. Is Zod > Faora and Nam-Ek combined? The same Zod who isn't a "god of confrontation" (to borrow an expression of yours) because he was beaten by a scientist (who may also be a warrior). Does "mastering his senses" make up for all the time Clark has been on earth?

So it wasn't exactly clear Zod's way more powerful than his companions.

This at the back of my head plus the lack of followup to Faora's words to Clark of having a "sense of morality" and Zod's threat to kill every human being (he only started aiming for the family in the train station) made the choreography of the final fight a whole lot gripping than it should have been. The contentious 'lack of buildup to killing Zod' for me.

 

[Marvin]

I'm not posting equations on this board, this board does not even have an equation editor. Needless to say, as I've already told you, the fact Earth's sun is younger is irrelevant, unless Krypton's sun is at an advanced evolved stage, which it is shown not to be.

So that's a no to my question then. You don't have any in film evidence of how old their sun is relative to ours, nor that our isn't larger and brighter..thanks.
Jor el's utterance stands.
"Earth's sun is younger and brighter than ours was"

 

[Marvin]

Clark was going mano a mano against a fully powered Zod in Metropolis -- which is why he couldn't be saving people, his hands were full. Makes sense. But Clark faced down two Kryptonians in Faora and Nam-Ek, while saving people. Is Zod > Faora and Nam-Ek combined? The same Zod who isn't a "god of confrontation" (to borrow an expression of yours) because he was beaten by a scientist (who may also be a warrior). Does "mastering his senses" make up for all the time Clark has been on earth?

So it wasn't exactly clear Zod's way more powerful than his companions.

Zod by himself equals more trouble than two kryptonians seems like a simple equation. I'm sure if asked superman will tell you which was the more troublesome endeavor.
Zod facing off against Jor tell in unpowered combat is another issue. One which begs the question of how skilled a fighter jor is or rather do we car about depowered fights in the grand scheme of things(seeing as we measure superman with powers).

 

[DA_Champion]

So that's a no to my question then. You don't have any in film evidence of how old their sun is relative to ours, nor that our isn't larger and brighter..thanks.
Jor el's utterance stands.
"Earth's sun is younger and brighter than ours was"

Krypton's Sun is the same colour, so it has the same temperature, and it's actually bigger in the Kryptonian sky than our Sun is on Earth's sky.

Their sun is definitely brighter. It's the same colour as our sun, but it's many times larger. Do you want me to work it out for you? OK, we're standing no more than 50 feet behind Jor-El in that image (a conservative overestimate). His head is intrinsically 0.5 feet wide (a conservative underestimate). That means the angle subtended by his head (180/pi)*0.5*60/50 = ~35 arcminutes. That makes their sun subtend an angle of no less than 50 arcminutes, approximately, which makes it larger than our sun.

There you go, I have proven that Krypton's sun is larger than Earth's sun, which proves it to be brighter.

 

[Marvin]

Snyder wasn't the storyteller in this movie.

That's not how directing works.

2. "bad track record" or not, a working unionized writer seems like a greater expert than yourself. Ergo, his opinion would be seen as greater than yours if you were to demonstrate any conviction in your philosophy today.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's not how directing works.

Normally no, but in this case the script was written when Snyder was hired, and we're told he had to ask for permission for any significant change.

 

[PacificBoy]

Zod by himself equals more trouble than two kryptonians seems like a simple equation. I'm sure if asked superman will tell you which was the more troublesome endeavor.
Zod facing off against Jor tell in unpowered combat is another issue. One which begs the question of how skilled a fighter jor is or rather do we car about depowered fights in the grand scheme of things(seeing as we measure superman with powers).

Sure (and an interesting discussion to branch off to) but we're also discussing what's clear and what's shown in the movie.

By virtue of having Jor-El, a stated scientist (who, from his actions, could also be a badass warrior), beat Zod, a stated general-warrior, Zod's status is no longer a "god of confrontation". It's a depowered fight but it made Zod seem less intimidating as a final boss threat.

"Trained my entire life to master my senses" but yeah, you got a beatdown by a pencil pusher.

Clark saved people while fending off TWO Kryptonians, but he was facing Zod, just one, who's clearly not the best fighter (as demonstrated), not the most powerful (no clue till the Metropolis fight). Was it clear and above inconsistency that "Zod by himself equals more trouble than two kryptonians"? By making Zod lose to Jor-El, the equation becomes an unnecessarily complex one.

 

[Marvin]

Sure (and an interesting discussion to branch off to) but we're also discussing what's clear and what's shown in the movie.

By virtue of having Jor-El, a stated scientist (who, from his actions, could also be a badass warrior), beat Zod, a stated general-warrior, Zod's status is no longer a "god of confrontation". It's a depowered fight but it made Zod seem less intimidating as a final boss threat.

"Trained my entire life to master my senses" but yeah, you got a beatdown by a pencil pusher.

Clark saved people while fending off TWO Kryptonians, but he was facing Zod, just one Kryptonian, who's clearly not the best fighter (as demonstrated), not the most powerful (no clue till the Metropolis fight). Was it clear and above inconsistency that "Zod by himself equals more trouble than two kryptonians"? By making Zod lose to Jor-El, the equation becomes an unnecessarily complex one.

Zod was never stated by myself to be a "god of confrontation" if you are gonna quote me, take note of my context(otherwise it's only half the charm).

I said unlike people want to believe due to their reading of krypton science, Zod isn't a "god of confrontation", he's just formidable. So is jor as demonstrated. Furthermore, jor isn't just a pencil pusher so Zod losing to him means him simply lost to a greater warrior on that day.

Clark multitasking whilst facing two of zods subordinates, then not being able to do the same when fighting zod is indicative of the present threat. A monster than can fly, shoot lasers out of his eyes..etc.
Zod lost to jor in a test of martial skill, not to far removed from losing at fencing. Zod is not to be measured by his martial skill, rather by what he is when he faces off against our protagonist. Again, just like superman isn't measured by his martial skill but by his usage of super powers.

how long did jor train to master his senses btw?

 

[Marvin]

Normally no, but in this case the script was written when Snyder was hired, and we're told he had to ask for permission for any significant change.

And this is what I mean by your convenient blame game assertions. You really have no clue how things played out behind the scene, just fanboy intel.

Directors most always have to get executive approval on script changes. See Transformers one for example.

 

[DA_Champion]

Sure (and an interesting discussion to branch off to) but we're also discussing what's clear and what's shown in the movie.

By virtue of having Jor-El, a stated scientist (who, from his actions, could also be a badass warrior), beat Zod, a stated general-warrior, Zod's status is no longer a "god of confrontation". It's a depowered fight but it made Zod seem less intimidating as a final boss threat.

"Trained my entire life to master my senses" but yeah, you got a beatdown by a pencil pusher.

Clark saved people while fending off TWO Kryptonians, but he was facing Zod, just one, who's clearly not the best fighter (as demonstrated), not the most powerful (no clue till the Metropolis fight). Was it clear and above inconsistency that "Zod by himself equals more trouble than two kryptonians"? By making Zod lose to Jor-El, the equation becomes an unnecessarily complex one.

I think we are past ignoring whether or not it either makes sense or is good storytelling for Jor-El to easily beat up Zod. Marvin and the Guard cannot acknowledge it because they are incapable of acknowledging any failures of this movie, for example Marvin incorrectly stating in the past two pages that the discussion and portrayal of Krypton's gravity and sun is consistent.

What it comes down to here is simply that Jor-El is possibly the greatest badass we've ever seen in any science fiction film. It's not intended as a knock on Zod that he loses to Jor-El: anybody would lose to Jor-El, not just in fighting, but in any activity be it fighting, science, engineering, athleticism, motivational speaking and charisma, etc. That was the actual story goal of MoS, the "boundary condition": to make Jor-El as "badass" as possible.

 

[Marvin]

Krypton's Sun is the same colour, so it has the same temperature, and it's actually bigger in the Kryptonian sky than our Sun is on Earth's sky.

Spoiler

Their sun is definitely brighter. It's the same colour as our sun, but it's many times larger. Do you want me to work it out for you? OK, we're standing no more than 50 feet behind Jor-El in that image (a conservative overestimate). His head is intrinsically 0.5 feet wide (a conservative underestimate). That means the angle subtended by his head (180/pi)*0.5/50 = ~35 arcminutes. That makes their sun subtend an angle of 50 arcminutes, approximately, which makes it larger than our sun.

There you go, I have proven that Krypton's sun is larger than Earth's sun, which proves it to be brighter.

I appreciate your math but it doesn't account for the distance between celestial bodies as I'm sure you know.
For example: the current continuity krypton is closer to it's sun than we are ours. That would basically account for your perception of it appearing larger. Unless you had that in your numbers somewhere...
I believe the number would be 50million kilometers closer.

Secondly, there is plenty of photography in which our own sunsets appear to be this large.
Such as, and

Lastly there is no accounting for artistic merit, especially in a snyder(of all people) film.

 

[PacificBoy]

Zod was never stated by myself to be a "god of confrontation" if you are gonna quote me, take note of my context(otherwise it's only half the charm).

I said unlike people want to believe due to their reading of krypton science, Zod isn't a "god of confrontation", he's just formidable. So is jor as demonstrated. Furthermore, jor isn't just a pencil pusher so Zod losing to him means him simply lost to a greater warrior on that day.

Clark multitasking whilst facing two of zods subordinates, then not being able to do the same when fighting zod is indicative of the present threat. A monster than can fly, shoot lasers out of his eyes..etc.
Zod lost to jor in a test of martial skill, not to far removed from losing at fencing. Zod is not to be measured by his martial skill, rather by what he is when he faces off against our protagonist. Again, just like superman isn't measured by his martial skill but by his usage of super powers.

how long did jor train to master his senses btw?

Yeah you were using it as "Zod is not a god of confrontation", but what I'm saying is, to yet again borrow your expression, that Zod needed to be a 'god of confrontation'. Clear and with little doubt as the final boss. There's some doubt now, because he lost to Jor-El. The visual of intimidation is lost.

Jor-El, yes, is obviously skilled because he could beat Zod in a fair fight. The problem here is bigging Jor-El up at the expense of nerfing Zod. The problem here is needing to even have the question "how long did jor train to master his senses btw?" at the back of our minds, when the audience (ok, some of us) are trying to reconcile Zod the not-so-badass physical threat against Clark, who handled two Kryptonians, one visually portrayed as very skilled, the other as huge/strong.

When Zod tries to browbeat Clark, "Where did you train, a farm?" But his daddy took you down WITH NO PREP TIME. We snicker -- just a bit.

If the Metropolis fight is "indicative of the present threat", and Clark knew Zod had to be stopped before he went on a killing spree, why wasn't Zod stopped before he became "A monster than can fly, shoot lasers out of his eyes..etc". If the power-up meant he could go toe-to-toe with Clark, conversely it meant he was weaker than Clark -- so why couldn't have Clark subdued him before that?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

What if.. Superman/Batman is actually BETTER?

 

[PacificBoy]

Well, there's every chance. MoS left it a good base to follow up on, while Batman is easier to write for Goyer...

...

 

[Marvin]

Yeah you were using it as "Zod is not a god of confrontation", but what I'm saying is, to yet again borrow your expression, that Zod needed to be a 'god of confrontation'. Clear and with little doubt as the final boss. There's some doubt now, because he lost to Jor-El. The visual of intimidation is lost.

Jor-El, yes, is obviously skilled because he could beat Zod in a fair fight. The problem here is bigging Jor-El up at the expense of nerfing Zod. The problem here is needing to even have the question "how long did jor train to master his senses btw?" at the back of our minds, because the audience (ok, some of us) are trying to reconcile Zod the not-so-badass physical threat against Clark, who handled two Kryptonians, one visually portrayed as very skilled, the other as huge/strong.

When Zod tries to browbeat Clark, "Where did you train, a farm?" But his daddy took you down WITH NO PREP TIME. We snicker -- just a bit.

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. It implies the audience thinks Zod is a push over. More to the point it implies that in the hearts and minds of an intelligent audience, Zod needs to wipe the floor(or simply beat) Jor in order to be seen as a credible/tangible/menacing threat.

Sorry but I just don't subscribe to the idea of infallible villains. Sure it's required for a rocky movie, and one could argue that it ads to a conflict, but this idea that it's necessary...in modern film no less. This material and it's audience hail from the school of serialized stories. The one where the joker escapes prison for the 50th time after suffering his 49th loss to batman and for some reason...he's still a functional villain.
To each his own.

I personally found zod's physicality put on demonstration, even in a losing battle to jor far more indicative to power and presence than Terry Stamp and his seeming reliance on gang mentality. I wonder if Stamp sold the possibility of beating Reeve in a one on one in that film.

If the Metropolis fight is "indicative of the present threat", and Clark knew Zod has to be stopped before he goes on a killing spree, why wasn't Zod stopped before he became "A monster than can fly, shoot lasers out of his eyes..etc". If the power-up meant he could go toe-to-toe with Clark, conversely it meant he was weaker than Clark -- so why couldn't have Clark subdued him before that?

The simple answer probably being the most correct one, simply:
He couldn't.
Like with faora, he was dealing with a superior fighter.

 

[Tempest]

Sure (and an interesting discussion to branch off to) but we're also discussing what's clear and what's shown in the movie.

By virtue of having Jor-El, a stated scientist (who, from his actions, could also be a badass warrior), beat Zod, a stated general-warrior, Zod's status is no longer a "god of confrontation". It's a depowered fight but it made Zod seem less intimidating as a final boss threat.

"Trained my entire life to master my senses" but yeah, you got a beatdown by a pencil pusher.

Clark saved people while fending off TWO Kryptonians, but he was facing Zod, just one, who's clearly not the best fighter (as demonstrated), not the most powerful (no clue till the Metropolis fight). Was it clear and above inconsistency that "Zod by himself equals more trouble than two kryptonians"? By making Zod lose to Jor-El, the equation becomes an unnecessarily complex one.

There's other posts to catch up on, but I thought I would gently remind people that Clark did not battle Faora and er....the tall scary one all by himself, like he was with Zod.

At that particular time, the military was a helpful distraction at certain points. The ONLY reason that fight ended was because Faora's senses were overwhelmed by a missile, not because Clark defeated her -- or Tall Scary Guy.

So basically, what I'm saying is, Clark had some help in the battle of Smallville. He had NO help in the battle of Metropolis.

 

[DA_Champion]

I appreciate your math but it doesn't account for the distance between celestial bodies as I'm sure you know.
For example: the current continuity krypton is closer to it's sun than we are ours. That would basically account for your perception of it appearing larger. Unless you had that in your numbers somewhere...
I believe the number would be 50million kilometers closer.

That's irrelevant. If a star is half as large, and you're twice as close, you'll feel the same thing.

ISecondly, there is plenty of photography in which our own sunsets appear to be this large.
Such as, and

It's a photographic illusion. Objects that are very bright can look big due to effects such as pixel saturation.

Look at the moon (same apparent size as the Sun) next time there's a full moon, you can fully block it with your pinky finger.

ILastly there is no accounting for artistic merit, especially in a snyder(of all people) film.

The artistic vision fail of telling us that Krypton's sun is different, and the showing a star that appears nearly identical other than the fact it's brighter.

 

[DA_Champion]

Well, there's every chance. MoS left it a good base to follow up on, while Batman is easier to write for Goyer...

...

It will be hard to tell a story with so many characters. Goyer's better scripts (Batman Begins, Blade II) are very focused.

 

[PacificBoy]

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. It implies the audience thinks Zod is a push over. More to the point it implies that in the hearts and minds of an intelligent audience, Zod needs to wipe the floor(or simply beat) Jor in order to be seen as a credible/tangible/menacing threat.

Nope, Zod doesn't have to be seen beating Jor-El. Just not lose at the beginning, to anyone. As an intelligent audience we appreciate the themes and Superman's journey and a multifaceted villain, but in a tent-pole, comicbook movie we are also paying good money to see the main villain being a "credible/tangible/menacing threat". We pay good money to see a credible end fight with super punches and explosions.

Sorry but I just don't subscribe to the idea of infallible villains. Sure it's required for a rocky movie, and one could argue that it ads to a conflict, but this idea that it's necessary...in modern film no less. This material and it's audience hail from the school of serialized stories. The one where the joker escapes prison for the 50th time after suffering his 49th loss to batman and for some reason...he's still a functional villain.
To each his own.

Interesting points, but I'm hardly arguing that "the idea of infallible villains is necessary in modern film". Even so, making Zod a "god of confrontation" doesn't make him any more infallible; Zod's tragic zeal gives his character a sheen of sympathetic fallibility which no amount of superstrength can make less vulnerable.

I personally found zod's physicality put on demonstration, even in a losing battle to jor far more indicative to power and presence than Terry Stamp and his seeming reliance on gang mentality. I wonder if Stamp sold the possibility of beating Reeve in a one on one in that film.

Interesting observation on the gang mentality in Stamp's portrayal, but really, beside the point here.

The simple answer probably being the most correct one, simply:
He couldn't.
Like with faora, he was dealing with a superior fighter.

So why couldn't Clark save anyone in the Metropolis fight before Zod powered up? Clearly, Zod isn't superior to Faora (we don't know at all). Clark fought Faora, saved people, then fought Faora and Nam-Ek, saved people again.

Zod isn't clearly shown to be superior than all the other fighting Kryptonians, in skill nor strength.

 

[Marvin]

That's irrelevant. If a star is half as large, and you're twice as close, you'll feel the same thing.

What does this discussion have to do with what you feel?
I simply asserted that if you think their sun looks bigger in this image of yours, that's no doubt due to it's lesser distance between bodies.
Hardly irrelevant.

Look at the moon (same apparent size as the Sun) next time there's a full moon, you can fully block it with your pinky finger.

And here I simply thought the moon was closer and the sun further, you know...like the tiny galaxies in the sky look smaller than the moon due to celestial distance.

The artistic vision fail of telling us that Krypton's sun is different, and the showing a star that appears nearly identical other than the fact it's brighter.

It would if you were right, sadly you haven't proven the contradiction as of yet. That being said, artistic merit tends to be applied to non consequential things. You know, like the lack of time dilation in superman's upper reaches of speed and such..
Call it a fail if you want, I suppose you are entitled to.

 

[Tempest]

Tempest,

Krypton's Sun being older makes sense **if** it's a red giant. However, if Krypton's sun is a solar twin, then the fact it's older is irrelevant. What this error shows is that:

1) They didn't bother to hire any competent consultants to help with the world building;
2) They didn't pay attention to detail. The script tells us that Krypton's sun is different, but then we're shown a solar twin;

Dude, while I realize the film did not extrapolate on the red sun bit, the novel acknowledged it, and it's been a part of the lore of Superman for a long time. If Superman is under the radiation frequencies of a red sun, he loses his powers.

Take it up with the comics if this annoys you. This is not Goyer/Snyder's doing. It's the explanation for why Kryptonians are not crazy powerful on their own planet, but how they gain super powers in Earth's atmosphere.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Well, there's every chance. MoS left it a good base to follow up on, while Batman is easier to write for Goyer...

...

He's harder to write for a LOT of people ;_ http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superman-exclusive-creative-challenges-of-the-man-of-steel/

I can actually understand that mentality. Preconceptions don't really allow ANY leeway for the man in blue. Any mistake/morally questionable decision Batman makes is followed up with "he's Batman, he's a dark and human character who has to make difficult choices and sometimes screws up" while with Superman it's "HOW DARE SUPERMAN do ANYTHING that isn't morally reasonable!"

Not that I'm advocating a morally-grey, dark hero. Just one that can occasionally stumble around once in a while.

Speaking of hard, Goyer said WW would be even HARDER to write than Superman. I think he should stay away from that one, or get LOTS of help

 

[Marvin]

Nope, Zod doesn't have to be seen beating Jor-El. Just not lose at the beginning, to anyone.

Well, you clearly don't speak for me.

We pay good money to see a credible end fight with super punches and explosions.

You were given a credible end fight with super punches and explosions.

Interesting points, but I'm hardly arguing that "the idea of infallible villains is necessary in modern film". Even so, making Zod a "god of confrontation" doesn't make him any more infallible; Zod's tragic zeal gives his character a sheen of sympathetic fallibility.

When I said infallible I should have been clear and simply said, non fallible, as in not above reproach. No matter how many times skynet fails it will be a credible villain. No matter how many times they evade the T1000 in the first half of T2, I won't stop lending credence in his ability to do his job. I don't think the audience loses all their faith in a villain after one failure, especially at a start of a film, Given he sheer amount of villain plots that begin with release from incarceration.

Interesting observation on the gang mentality in Stamp's portrayal, but really, beside the point here.

Not when you compare Shannon's portrayal and presence to the film this is remaking. People often compare Shakesphearean portrayals to predecessors as a gauge of effectiveness. Shannon sold immediacy and power in a way stamp didn't imo. If anything stamp sold frailty(see solar man to see the opposite).

So why couldn't Clark save anyone in the Metropolis fight before Zod powered up? Clearly, Zod isn't superior to Faora (we don't know at all). Clark fought Faora, saved people, then fought Faora and Nam-Ek, saved people again.

1. Again, simple answer, he didn't because he couldn't.
2. Curious whom it is you needed him to save before zod started shooting heat vision? Someone falling out of a plane perhaps like in smallville?

Zod isn't clearly shown to be superior than all the other fighting Kryptonians, in skill nor strength.

I said he has her fighting skill set. Not only is it implied by the script(high rankng general boats about his training), but it's shown that he partakes in their particular martial art form. He demonstrates as such on Jor and Kal. Ergo, one can deduce that he presented the same problem as faora, only more so due to super sense and flying.
Again, greater fighting "skill" than Kal.