DC Relaunching Everything? - Part 1

[Pyro Man]

The Batman books were soooo good before all this. I'm really gonna miss Dick as Batman and Batman, INC was just awesome. At least Vegeta Wayne is still around, but I guess him and Bruce will get into snarl contests now.

Dick and Damien were my favorite B&R team besides the original.

I agree. I actually quit reading comics for a little over a year and Morrison's Batman and Robin actually piqued my interest and got me started again. So the fact that they feel the need to make Dick Nightwing again is a little disheartening.

Hopefully Morrison's plans for INC haven't been messed with too much by this. I am a bit dissapointed it won't be back until early next year after issue 10. It was such a great fun book. Something that sort of bothers me is at least from the covers for all the new Batbooks coming with the relaunch is they all look so similar and they all look sort of grimdark, including Batman and Robin's cover.

Now I trust Tomasi and Snyder but it just feels like the diversity we had going on between more fun adventurous Bat books and the darker more grounded ones has sort of faded and started to lean towards the latter. Which saddens me cause I liked the globetrotting adventure stuff in INC and having Dick around as a less stoic Batman.

 

[TheIncredibleSk]

Batman INC is cool and it's gonna have a ending you guys. Grant's gonna do that and then do Batman:Leviathan. That will be the end to his five year run on Batman.

 

[Pyro Man]

I'm not saying its not gonna have an ending. I'm well aware of that. I just worry that Dick going back to being Nightwing was not part of Morrison's plan for the series (especially since I recall reading Morrison saying that we'd see alot more of Dick and Damien in the second year of Inc) and may cause him to have to make some changes to his plan for the series.

 

[The Batman]

The Batman books were soooo good before all this. I'm really gonna miss Dick as Batman and Batman, INC was just awesome. At least Vegeta Wayne is still around, but I guess him and Bruce will get into snarl contests now.

Dick and Damien were my favorite B&R team besides the original.

The only batbook im getting is INC. And I agree about Dick and Damian. The only B & R duo that's as cool as the original.

 

[KrypJonian]

I do read your posts, and you clearly care more about bull**** like history and sales than the characters themselves.

Like Anubis, I greatly enjoyed Rucka's WW, she was one of the best and most iconic portrayals of the character ever, and I don't give two ****s how little it sold. So you can take your FACTS and your history and your sales figures and shove it, because that's not what I give anything close to the D in "Damn" about. I care about the characters and I care about seeing them portrayed well.

For Wonder Woman, that's being a warrior for peace.

For Wolverine, that's being a heroic figure who fights his ruthless beast within.

For Superman, that's being a god-like man trying to be a man for himself and a god for everyone else.

For Batman, that's being a dedicated, no-nonsense person who uses his collected skills and wits to do a job normally reserved for superbeings (and can smile and have a friend or two like a normal person).

Just because something sells, doesn't make it good. And I would rather Wonder Woman crash and burn for eternity than have a bastardized version sell like hotcakes.


EDIT: Also, I regret now using the term "gay up", as TheIncredibleSk has made me look dumb by his interpretation of it. I did NOT mean it as "make it gay", I meant it as "pander to the gay community in a cheap attempt to boost sales" like some sort of rainbow die cut holographic cover. I personally don't care if something is "made gay" as long as it's not coming from a exploitative idea.

Who gives a sh** what you think or want?

Your ideas and ideals of these characters are false as long as they've been around.

Money talks and bullsh** walks...

 

[KrypJonian]

Just because something sells, doesn't make it good. And I would rather Wonder Woman crash and burn for eternity than have a bastardized version sell like hotcakes.

Wow, big fan here...

Unfortunately, what matters is sales and not your opinion... But thank you so much for making the rest of us fans of comics (and their inevitable changes) look lke a bunch of jerks...

 

[Mr. Earle]

I want Wonder Woman to succeed. Superbadass snarling warrior chix Wonder Woman has been tried and it has failed. The only Wonder Woman that ever sold in huge numbers (both in sales numbers and in terms of market share) was the very bizarre and freaky bondage-laced original. It outsold Superman, Batman and Captain Marvel at times. Show me another way to make the character connect with people and I'd be all for it. So far they've tried generic superhero, warrior chik, and Emma Peel ripoff and they've all failed. What worked was bizarre stories and worlds and heightened sexuality and bondage.

I mean, does anyone think this new Wonder Woman with the second new costume in a year and continuing the old grim and gritty warrior bs will sell? We all know it won't. They'll print a Wonder Woman book because when they bought the character outright from the Marston estate the requirement to keep a WW title going was obviously maintained, and that is the only reason. It's not like anyone actually buys the damn title.

There is one factor you re not taking into account: The readers during Marston's age are not the readers of today. So just because that WW sold back then, it doesnt mean that she will sell so well today. Comics were freaky in general back then, so WW didnt stand out all that much. What you re proposing is a WW that one would find in Vertigo or Image or whatever and she would only cater to some fans who like that stuff. I'm sorry but if that's the case i dont want it. I want WW to be able to stand with SM and BM in the Trinity and therefore she needs the sales and general in-universe respect to do that. If she's perceived as "that lady gaga bondage chick" then i dont see it happening. She needs to be an ambassador for peace and a badass when the situation calls for it.

I still say the biggest hurdle WW has is that the current crop of comic fans just don't like female heroes.

But Powergirl, Batgirl and other female heroes sell pretty well. I dont know if Ms Marvel and Spiderwoman have their own books there at Marvel but i know they re pretty good characters who dont have to deal with all the **** that WW deals with.

 

[Tron Bonne]

There is one factor you re not taking into account: The readers during Marston's age are not the readers of today. So just because that WW sold back then, it doesnt mean that she will sell so well today. Comics were freaky in general back then, so WW didnt stand out all that much. What you re proposing is a WW that one would find in Vertigo or Image or whatever and she would only cater to some fans who like that stuff. I'm sorry but if that's the case i dont want it. I want WW to be able to stand with SM and BM in the Trinity and therefore she needs the sales and general in-universe respect to do that. If she's perceived as "that lady gaga bondage chick" then i dont see it happening. She needs to be an ambassador for peace and a badass when the situation calls for it.

WW didn't stand out all that much back then? Haha, wow.

But Powergirl, Batgirl and other female heroes sell pretty well. I dont know if Ms Marvel and Spiderwoman have their own books there at Marvel but i know they re pretty good characters who dont have to deal with all the **** that WW deals with.

Uh, no they don't? Power Girl hasn't sold out of the top 90 since, like, issue 8. Batgirl was selling okay for awhile, but it's fallen down around the top 60s and 70s, I believe. Spider-Woman couldn't even last a full year. Ms. Marvel managed 50 issues, but was never much for sales. As I mentioned before, Wonder Woman is basically the only female solo character to sustain her own book for an extended period of time over all of these years. She's had plenty of rough spots and relaunches, but she's the only one that's been able to keep a book going all of these years.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Oh, I absolutely know much of the Golden and Silver Age comics are dated. Like what Grant Morrison does, I want up to date takes on those ideas. I want the original stuff used as a base. And there were poor comics then, just as there are poor comics now. I'm not saying I want Wonder Woman to be like a bunch of HG Peter swipes, of course not. But I would like it to be weird and different and a little wacky and fun and it does need to be openly sexual because that's what the original did. But no, I don't want modern comics to be just like the old comics. If they did that, I'd just as soon continue to read the old comics since they were the real thing.

I'm certainly all for meeting modern fans halfway. Heck, that's what Grant has been doing. Johns tries to do it, but he's no Grant Morrison or even close.

Here's the thing though. Morrison uses those crazy Golden and Silver Age comics as a base but heavily refines them to be suitable for a modern audience. He sometimes gives us a whacky golden age scene in there, but its often through the prism of nostalgia and a "well look how nuts comics were back then. Werent they fun?"

But at the same time his main story is not writen like a golden age story and its not too far fetched or kinky or whatever. Yeah he pushes the envelope more than someone like Dini, but he's not giving us those crazy old comics.

Wonder Woman isn't a gritty or dark character.

Also, gritty and dark seems to equate with crap and suck, so no.

I agree.

 

[Mr. Earle]

WW didn't stand out all that much back then? Haha, wow.

It stood out for sure, but the rest of the comics had that same crazy factor, so those WW comics werent THAT out there compared to the rest. They were just more kinky.

However, if you adapt them today, they will stand out even more because the rest of the comics have become more grounded and more logical. You cant just go back to those comics where it seemed like people were writing them while stoned. And you just cant do that kinky stuff and expect WW to stay in the Trinity.

Uh, no they don't? Power Girl hasn't sold out of the top 90 since, like, issue 8. Batgirl was selling okay for awhile, but it's fallen down around the top 60s and 70s, I believe. Spider-Woman couldn't even last a full year. Ms. Marvel managed 50 issues, but was never much for sales. As I mentioned before, Wonder Woman is basically the only female solo character to sustain her own book for an extended period of time over all of these years. She's had plenty of rough spots and relaunches, but she's the only one that's been able to keep a book going all of these years.

WW only kept getting published because DC had a contract and because she's considered iconic. Even if she's the least selling book, she wont get cancelled.

I dont know a lot about PG, but Steph's Batgirl has been selling very well and has even gotten awards.

 

[Tron Bonne]

It stood out for sure, but the rest of the comics had that same crazy factor, so those WW comics werent THAT out there compared to the rest. They were just more kinky.

Actually, for the most part, comics of the Golden Age weren't all that crazy. It wasn't until the Silver Age comics when comics became completely and totally out there. But Marston's WW was more out there than even some of them. So, yeah, WW really was out there in comparison to the stuff around her.

However, if you adapt them today, they will stand out even more because the rest of the comics have become more grounded and more logical.

That's actually probably a good thing. Seems to have done wonders for Grant Morrison

WW only kept getting published because DC had a contract and because she's considered iconic. Even if she's the least selling book, she wont get cancelled.

Perhaps, but the point still stands and I think there's more of a base for her than other heroine's. Like right now, I'm pretty sure she's the best selling female solo superhero book on the market, and that's generally the case. The Buffy book outsells her, I believe, but that's a different situation. That's not to say she sells great or anything, in general, but there's more of a base for her than most other female, and of course comic sales in generally are down a lot, so everything's taken a hit lately.

I dont know a lot about PG, but Steph's Batgirl has been selling very well and has even gotten awards.

Well, if you didn't know about PG, you shouldn't have used her as an example, because her book sold more or less like **** since the beginning. How that book made it two years is anyone's guess. And, like I said, Batgirl's book started out well for awhile, but recently, has dropped into lower brackets. I'm fairly certain that the last couple of issues have been in the 60s-70s range on the charts.

 

[Tron Bonne]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/09/dc-relaunch-jla-beyond-1/

Anyway, more on the relaunch news. JLA Beyond #1.

 

[Mr. Earle]

That's actually probably a good thing. Seems to have done wonders for Grant Morrison

Yes, but like i explained Morrison adapts them to suit the modern audience and if they do that it would be perfect. Like, take all of my money perfect!
WW needs to be like that, but i disagree with Kuro who wants to throw her back to the Golden Age and make her like Gaga.

Perhaps, but the point still stands and I think there's more of a base for her than other heroine's. Like right now, I'm pretty sure she's the best selling female solo superhero book on the market, and that's generally the case. The Buffy book outsells her, I believe, but that's a different situation. That's not to say she sells great or anything, in general, but there's more of a base for her than most other female, and of course comic sales in generally are down a lot, so everything's taken a hit lately.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=25707

I randomly picked March and we have:

Batgirl in 64th place
Supergirl in 68th
Spider Woman in 84th
Wonder Woman in 85th

Of course that might be down to JMS' stupid story. WW must have been selling better under Simone.

Well, if you didn't know about PG, you shouldn't have used her as an example, because her book sold more or less like **** since the beginning. How that book made it two years is anyone's guess. And, like I said, Batgirl's book started out well for awhile, but recently, has dropped into lower brackets. I'm fairly certain that the last couple of issues have been in the 60s-70s range on the charts.

PG is 101st.
I also thought that Batgirl was selling better. There was a point that she was close to Red Robin, like 2-3 places bellow.

 

[Mr. Earle]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/09/dc-relaunch-jla-beyond-1/

Anyway, more on the relaunch news. JLA Beyond #1.

Meh... That team doesnt interest me. What about you guys?

Thanks for the news though.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Yes, but like i explained Morrison adapts them to suit the modern audience and if they do that it would be perfect. Like, take all of my money perfect!
WW needs to be like that, but i disagree with Kuro who wants to throw her back to the Golden Age and make her like Gaga.

Well, yeah, I think that's obviously a given that you need to adapt them to modern sensibilities. I really don't think Kuro was saying we needed a direct and total translation of that time period.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=25707

I randomly picked March and we have:

Batgirl in 64th place
Supergirl in 68th
Spider Woman in 84th
Wonder Woman in 85th

Of course that might be down to JMS' stupid story. WW must have been selling better under Simone.

Uh, well, that's actually March of last year. Here's the most recent charts, from April of this year:

http://www.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=3&s=5&ai=108506

Batgirl is 72
Supergirl is 83
Spider-Woman was canceled a long ass time before this
Wonder Woman is 50 (The actually numbers aren't there, but it's a good idea of standing)

No, actually JMS' storyline has brought WW titles back to her more normal numbers. Under the latter part of Simones run the title sold worse than it had in several years.

PG is 101st.

The sales increased a little with the JL: GL tie-ins, but it never sold very well.

I also thought that Batgirl was selling better. There was a point that she was close to Red Robin, like 2-3 places bellow.

She was, at first, and during the whole Road Home stuff, but those bumps rarely last very long.

 

[The Morningstar]

Im glad Brian Azzarello will be on the new relaunch. Bring her down to earth, streamlined her mythology, and I wanna see the WAAAARRIOR side of more like in the Wonder Woman movie. Gritty and dark, and make Wonder Woman badass.

Azzarello is a great writer.

But seriously, he's gotta be the dumbest choice for a character like Wonder Woman.

This is the guy who specialises is gritty, grimey, violent noir stories. He wrote 100 Bullets for chissakes!

Putting him on Wonder Woman is like, putting David Lapham on Superman. It's just stupid.

Now, Azzarello on The Question? Now that makes sense, and it'd be awesome.

 

[Pyro Man]

Meh... That team doesnt interest me. What about you guys?

Thanks for the news though.

Not particularly excited either. I enjoyed the Batman Beyond cartoon but I'm not that interested in reading the ongoing based on it, especially given its writer, and don't have too much interest in reading a spin-off.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Azzarello is a great writer.

But seriously, he's gotta be the dumbest choice for a character like Wonder Woman.

This is the guy who specialises is gritty, grimey, violent noir stories. He wrote 100 Bullets for chissakes!

Putting him on Wonder Woman is like, putting David Lapham on Superman. It's just stupid.

Now, Azzarello on The Question? Now that makes sense, and it'd be awesome.

Well, to be fair, you could probably say the exact same thing about Greg Rucka, and his run on Wonder Woman was easily the best in a long time. And no one would expect Garth Ennis, of all people in this industry, to get Superman so well, but he really does. You just never know.

 

[roach]

Azzarello is a great writer.

But seriously, he's gotta be the dumbest choice for a character like Wonder Woman.

This is the guy who specialises is gritty, grimey, violent noir stories. He wrote 100 Bullets for chissakes!

Putting him on Wonder Woman is like, putting David Lapham on Superman. It's just stupid.

Now, Azzarello on The Question? Now that makes sense, and it'd be awesome.

right because writers only know how to write one type of story

 

[The Morningstar]

Wow, big fan here...

Unfortunately, what matters is sales and not your opinion... But thank you so much for making the rest of us fans of comics (and their inevitable changes) look lke a bunch of jerks...

No, he's right. Big sales do not mean big quality. To attribute how high or low a book sells to it's quality is... idiotic, to be frank.

Do you know why certain books sell big? It's because the companies want them to sell big. That's it. It's absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the book. The vast majority of comic book readers are idiots who just follow what books are "important" or have the big name characters like little sheep. Or they have the whole "collector" mentality when they just can't drop a book they think is crap because they gotta catch em all!

Bendis' Avengers for example.

 

[Drz]

right because writers only know how to write one type of story

This.

 

[The Morningstar]

right because writers only know how to write one type of story

No, but writers have certain styles and Azzarello's style just does not suit Wonder Woman. He has never, ever displayed the kind of writing that would suit Wonder Woman.

If he comes out and writes the **** of the WW book I'll hold my hands up.

But, I think this is just an excersize in trying to make her all grimdark and violent to appeal to teenage boys who think violence is cool.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Azzarello is a great writer.

But seriously, he's gotta be the dumbest choice for a character like Wonder Woman.

This is the guy who specialises is gritty, grimey, violent noir stories. He wrote 100 Bullets for chissakes!

Putting him on Wonder Woman is like, putting David Lapham on Superman. It's just stupid.

Now, Azzarello on The Question? Now that makes sense, and it'd be awesome.

The funny thing is that Morrison pitched a WW book to DC and they found it too crazy to do. Like he told us about his rejected Superman pitch (most of which found its way in All-Star) i hope that he tells us about his WW one at some point. I'd love to hear what he came up with.

Well, to be fair, you could probably say the exact same thing about Greg Rucka, and his run on Wonder Woman was easily the best in a long time. And no one would expect Garth Ennis, of all people in this industry, to get Superman so well, but he really does. You just never know.

True.

Well, yeah, I think that's obviously a given that you need to adapt them to modern sensibilities. I really don't think Kuro was saying we needed a direct and total translation of that time period.

Uh, well, that's actually March of last year. Here's the most recent charts, from April of this year:

http://www.diamondcomics.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=3&s=5&ai=108506

Batgirl is 72
Supergirl is 83
Spider-Woman was canceled a long ass time before this
Wonder Woman is 50 (The actually numbers aren't there, but it's a good idea of standing)

No, actually JMS' storyline has brought WW titles back to her more normal numbers. Under the latter part of Simones run the title sold worse than it had in several years.

Oh, i screwed up there. t:

 

[Mr. Earle]

No, but writers have certain styles and Azzarello's style just does not suit Wonder Woman. He has never, ever displayed the kind of writing that would suit Wonder Woman.

If he comes out and writes the **** of the WW book I'll hold my hands up.

But, I think this is just an excersize in trying to make her all grimdark and violent to appeal to teenage boys who think violence is cool.

While i remain hopeful, i think so too.

- JMS' suit which is supposedly fitting for an Urban WW.
- Rumors about her getting a corporation like in the TV show. This doesnt sound like the global symbol of peace WW, but more like Powergirl, or Batman. It suggests a more grounded approach.
- Writer famous for grimdark.
- JMS was going to do his story and retain some of its elements after Diana cleared things out. I bet they'd keep some stuff post FP.



Also for anyone who's interested i have some spoilers for Flashpoint WW.
[BLACKOUT]- She was going to get married to Aquaman but he murdered Hippolyta on their wedding day. We dont know why.
- He didnt really love her, he loved Mera and WW took her revenge by killing her.
- The helmet she now wears was Mera's. She wears it to taunt Aquaman. I gotta say, i really like it on her.
- The Amazons took over England and they were preparing to invade the rest of Europe till Aquaman sank the western half under the ocean.

I'm really digging her in this. I know she's different and evil, but that's the whole point of FP. Its why i also like murderous Bat-Thomas, and Pirate-Deathstroke. This event is awesome! [/BLACKOUT]

 

[Tron Bonne]

No, but writers have certain styles and Azzarello's style just does not suit Wonder Woman. He has never, ever displayed the kind of writing that would suit Wonder Woman.

If he comes out and writes the **** of the WW book I'll hold my hands up.

But, I think this is just an excersize in trying to make her all grimdark and violent to appeal to teenage boys who think violence is cool.

*ahem*

Well, to be fair, you could probably say the exact same thing about Greg Rucka, and his run on Wonder Woman was easily the best in a long time. And no one would expect Garth Ennis, of all people in this industry, to get Superman so well, but he really does. You just never know.

I get what you're saying and all, but really, you just can't say that as some set-in stone in fact or anything, when the best writer on the book in, like, a decade's time was in the same vain. And, I mean, if that's the direction they're going, Azzy is about a good a choice to do so, I guess.