Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 3

[Primal Slayer]

Can I say the way they wrote Vixen in her fight scenes, with her puns is exactly the way I want them to write Laurel during hers.

And love this
Evolution of LL

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

Not really, because I think of the court scenes in Daredevil, and they were strong because they were given time to breathe. But on these CW shows, scenes like that are over in a minute or two. They almost seem to lose their importance.

I think this time it will be important due to Darhk a major villain. How much court scene time would you consider good?

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I think this time it will be important due to Darhk a major villain. How much court scene time would you consider good?

42 minutes.

 

[Primal Slayer]

You would think that MG would enjoy giving Laurel lawyer scenes since his a former lawyer.

 

[SpideyVille]

I think this time it will be important due to Darhk a major villain. How much court scene time would you consider good?

Well BlueLanternKal brought up Moira's trial, and that was a good episode because it revolved around the trial, so there was suspense. In this case, I feel like we're going to get one scene and that;s it, since the episode will have a ton of stuff going on, as usual.

We usually get about 5-6 minutes of the show between commercial breaks, so I think the court scene would need to take up one of those spots. But I imagine the episode opening up with the trial and having it go on for 3-4 minutes before as the verdict is given.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

Amell might not be an extremely expressive actor but saying he doesn't have chemistry with her isn't any more fair than saying Cassidy doesn't. Amell has shown his acting skill time and again–lest we forget Moira's death scene, for one extremely memorable moment. That said, he does have this distant expression most of the time that can make him seem...I don't know, bland maybe, but I think that's the writers' fault more than Amell's. Look at any scene where Amell either smiles, or has any kind of genuine emotion (again, Moira's death–or his argument with Lance in E4 of this season, I believe it was). He's actually a good actor. He just isn't given a lot to play with, because Oliver's written as very straight-faced most of the time. But Amell plays it off well; remember the scene this season where he and Diggle do that little finger-pointing thing when talking about the old lair's bottle of vodka?

As for Cassidy, as others have said, she's shown in Flash and LOT that she can be a great actress with genuine chemistry. But she's not allowed to play with that in Arrow, not since S2. I'll say it as long as it continues to be true, but her best scenes were in the S2 finale. Those were defining moments for Laurel, but after that she's written almost as blandly as Oliver typically is. But to be fair, both of them have been more enjoyable the last three or four episodes.

In fact, I think that generally goes for everyone on the show: they act as well as the material they're given allows. S1 and S2 were great because they all acted according to great scripts. The scripts haven't been as great these last two seasons (S4 has been good, but not quite up to S1 or S2's standards), so the acting hasn't been as good, either. Look at EBR. Felicity used to be a fun, terrific character but ever since the romance angle started she's gone massively downhill for her. It's not EBR's fault, it's the writers'.

So if Oliver and Laurel did eventually get together, and the writers did it right, then yeah, they could have chemistry. The material's written right, the actors will play it out well on-screen. I'd agree that Laurel should act, in such a hypothetical situation, more like Sara does–flirty and friendly. Their relationship should not in any way, shape, or form resemble Oliver and Felicity's.

Personally I don't see a way at this point where they could have Felicity and Oliver break it off and Felicity still be on the show (at least, as Overwatch). Because the way Felicity's being written now, there's no logical reason for her to stay with the team if she and Oliver break up. And that's sad, because in the first episode of this season she was the one who got him back into the team. She was the one who wanted to do the vigilante thing. Now, she's a very selfish person. And if she breaks up with him, I don't see her staying on the team because she'll either ignore him or spend the entire time chewing him out, and nothing will ever get done. If that happens, she'll have to leave the team and become a permanent fixture at Palmer Tech, at least for a while.

If they do, then put Curtis on Team Arrow. Please. He'd be a good replacement and there'd be no relationship drama with him. And he's actually an existing, legitimate superhero.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I would say water being wet, fire hot, ice cold are better described as tangible sensory experiences whereas "chemistry" is an intangible subjective impression/perception about something. Much harder to agree on than something that can be confirmed via senses such as touch

Chemistry is like charisma, it's evident regardless of preference, like WWE wrestler The Rock, I never liked his style of acting in wrestling but there was never doubting he had charisma, it's just a fact.

Quick, stop making sense before you get accused of being a canon demanding comic nerd.

Stop trolling, you're boring me now.

 

[DeadFan]

Chemistry is like charisma, it's evident regardless of preference, like WWE wrestler The Rock, I never liked his style of acting in wrestling but there was never doubting he had charisma, it's just a fact..

Disagree. Facts are presented as having an objective reality. If one group of people say they see Olicity chemistry and another group says they do not, by what objective authority and measurement regarding all things Olicity and agreed upon by all parties is the "truth" of this fact to be determined?

 

[Hunter Rider]

Disagree. Facts are presented as having an objective reality. If one group of people say they see Olicity chemistry and another group says they do not, by what objective authority and measurement regarding all things Olicity and agreed upon by all parties is the "truth" of this fact to be determined?

Like I say it's just simply evident, a personal preference has zero to do with it, like charisma, you may not like or enjoy the person but you can only deny the fact of their charisma by being biased to the truth because you don't like the person's style, it doesn't alter that they have it.

 

[DeadFan]

Like I say it's just simply evident, a personal preference has zero to do with it, like charisma, you may not like or enjoy the person but you can only deny the fact of their charisma by being biased to the truth because you don't like the person's style, it doesn't alter that they have it.

Well, again I disagree b/c what is evident to one person will not necessarily be evident to another in such matters as "chemistry" and there is always the question of: "who gets to decide what is 'evident' and by what agreed-upon authority'?" This is an interpretation of a piece of art (a fictional TV show and performances by actors). But it is interesting to hear your viewpoint. I don't think that we will have a meeting of minds with regard to this so from my perspective I will agree to disagree and will make no further comments, as I don't think any further comments I have would add anything new to what I have already said. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well, again I disagree b/c what is evident to one person will not necessarily be evident to another in such matters as "chemistry" and there is always the question of: "who gets to decide what is 'evident' and by what agreed-upon authority'?" This is an interpretation of a piece of art (a fictional TV show and performances by actors). But it is interesting to hear your viewpoint. I don't think that we will have a meeting of minds with regard to this so from my perspective I will agree to disagree and will make no further comments, as I don't think any further comments I have would add anything new to what I have already said. Thanks for the discussion.

I don't think interpretation comes into it, I think too many times people let their personal like/dislike shade what is obvious because their emotion prevents them from being objective. I'm cool with agreeing to disagree though, like you say I doubt we'll come to a common ground on this.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I don't think interpretation comes into it, I think too many times people let their personal like/dislike shade what is obvious because their emotion prevents them from being objective. I'm cool with agreeing to disagree though, like you say I doubt we'll come to a common ground on this.

It's about as objective as me saying that Man of Steel is a masterpiece. People see what they want to see. I don't question your ability to see the chemistry or lack thereof between two characters. But on the same token what is "apparent" to you is non existent to other people. Until humanity develops a hive mind and begins sharing a consiousness that's not likely to change. Good writing is more often than not responsible for "good chemistry".

 

[Hunter Rider]

It's about as objective as me saying that Man of Steel is a masterpiece. People see what they want to see. I don't question your ability to see the chemistry or lack thereof between two characters. But on the same token what is "apparent" to you is non existent to other people. Until humanity develops a hive mind and begins sharing a consiousness that's not likely to change. Good writing is more often than not responsible for "good chemistry".

Saying a movie or a videogame or a TV show is a masterpiece is an opinion based on personal tastes. Chemistry is an intangible, like charisma or god given athletic ability, that is undeniable no matter your preferences.

 

[AspieXLDS]

Regarding chemistry: Hunter Rider, did you see chemistry between Supergirl and Adam during that brief stint he was on that show? I certainly didn't. And that was a married couple playing the two.

Chemistry does help make a character's interactions, romantic or otherwise, be more palatable. There is a chemistry to Oliver-Laurel, though not as strong as Felicity-Oliver. But if I had to pick a strong chemistry, regardless of relationship, on Arrow? The two that tie for first place are the Thea-Oliver chemistry as brother-sister, and Sara-Oliver as friends and/or lovers. Felicity is good as a friend as far as chemistry goes, but the only Oliver-based relationship that hasn't imploded story-wise was Sara-Oliver, which ended abruptly in Season 2 with a contrived reasoning of Sara deciding she belonged with the LoA after all, despite the fact they spent the first half of season 2 establishing the reasons she left. The contrived reasoning is a blatant pandering to the Olicity fanbase and is where the show started taking its downturn.

 

[Batsfan1]

Like I say it's just simply evident, a personal preference has zero to do with it, like charisma, you may not like or enjoy the person but you can only deny the fact of their charisma by being biased to the truth because you don't like the person's style, it doesn't alter that they have it.

That's not the case. It's all about opinion. There isn't an evident factor in charisma or chemistry. It's an opinion.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[TheRedWraith]

That's not the case. It's all about opinion. There isn't an evident factor in charisma or chemistry. It's an opinion.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

I agree, chemistry is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Regarding chemistry: Hunter Rider, did you see chemistry between Supergirl and Adam during that brief stint he was on that show? I certainly didn't. And that was a married couple playing the two.

Chemistry does help make a character's interactions, romantic or otherwise, be more palatable. There is a chemistry to Oliver-Laurel, though not as strong as Felicity-Oliver. But if I had to pick a strong chemistry, regardless of relationship, on Arrow? The two that tie for first place are the Thea-Oliver chemistry as brother-sister, and Sara-Oliver as friends and/or lovers. Felicity is good as a friend as far as chemistry goes, but the only Oliver-based relationship that hasn't imploded story-wise was Sara-Oliver, which ended abruptly in Season 2 with a contrived reasoning of Sara deciding she belonged with the LoA after all, despite the fact they spent the first half of season 2 establishing the reasons she left. The contrived reasoning is a blatant pandering to the Olicity fanbase and is where the show started taking its downturn.

Oliver and Sara wasn't chemistry it was sexually raw and easy because both were so dark at the time that they simply couldn't hurt each other, and the reason she left was not the played out "lets use pandering even though I want the show to pander to me" excuse, it was because Laurel needed to become the Black Canary as that's who she is and couldn't make that transition while Sara was still around.

That's not the case

Yeah. it is the case.

 

[SpideyVille]

Olicity to me is like the Roman Reigns of the Arrowverse. It's not bad on it's own when it's in the mix of things, but when it's bought out into the forefront, and the producers are basically trying to force us to root for them, it just doesn't work. And what's worse is that the producers are mostly just trying to appease part of the audience, while completely giving the finger to those who have supported the show for years and come to see some sign of the "glory days" of the past when the show was something different.

Realistically, other than Ollie trying to take a lighter take, which really started in season two after Tommy's death, what good has come from Oliver and Felicity's relationship being in the forefront? All I can think of is a lot of time spent on consoling Felicity, judging Oliver, and no development for background characters or villains alike.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Olicity to me is like the Roman Reigns of the Arrowverse. It's not bad on it's own when it's in the mix of things, but when it's bought out into the forefront, and the producers are basically trying to force us to root for them, it just doesn't work. And what's worse is that the producers are mostly just trying to appease part of the audience, while completely giving the finger to those who have supported the show for years and come to see some sign of the "glory days" of the past when the show was something different.

Realistically, other than Ollie trying to take a lighter take, which really started in season two after Tommy's death, what good has come from Oliver and Felicity's relationship being in the forefront? All I can think of is a lot of time spent on consoling Felicity, judging Oliver, and no development for background characters or villains alike.

Oliver is the main character and Felicity is his the one that has helped him become a better man, she's the one that connects with him and he's developed a lot, given he's the main character so that's pretty essential IMO. This medium always has a central pairing at the front, I doubt you'd complain if you're honest, if it was simply Laurel getting Felicity's screen time and with Oliver. The other characters get plenty of time for what they are, which is supporting characters. Digg, Laurel and Thea get more development than Caitlin, Iris and Cisco.

If you want to use a wrestling analogy it#s John Cena, not Reigns.

 

[SpideyVille]

Oliver is the main character and Felicity is his the one that has helped him become a better man, she's the one that connects with him and he's developed a lot, given he's the main character so that's pretty essential IMO. This medium always has a central pairing at the front, I doubt you'd complain if you're honest, if it was simply Laurel getting Felicity's screen time and with Oliver. The other characters get plenty of time for what they are, which is supporting characters. Digg, Laurel and Thea get more development than Caitlin, Iris and Cisco.

If you want to use a wrestling analogy it#s John Cena, not Reigns.

Not even true. I've been the first to say Season 1 was solid, but that romance at the end was completely unnecessary. Having Tommy on the show was great, because it gave the nice swerve that he wasn't the villain that Oliver would be facing, but having that triangle at season's end felt cheap and forced, even though it was evident that they wanted to build on the Laurel/Oliver reunion at some point in the show. They just did it way too soon and it hurt an otherwise good season. And that was definitely pandering.

But given the reality that KC is on the show, and expected to be a pivotal character in the series, it's not hard to see that they pretty much set her character to be hated and or useless for most of season 2. You bring in a Canary, who is already a badass, and you have her hookup with Oliver for part of the season, you basically make her what Dinah is supposed to be, even though that's who Laurel is supposed to be. They basically brought in one character that made an existing character useless. They eventually turned her into the Black Canary, but both her and Roy were able to get their own arc because Oliver was gone, so they couldn't focus on the romance aspect. Even now, Diggle, Thea, Laurel, they're only important when the plot calls for them to be. Otherwise, they're wallpaper. They do nothing for 3 straight episodes, then suddenly Oliver has to help them out with something or save someone they know, and suddenly they get some attention.

And for further reference, I was never a big Erica Durance fan and didn't care for Lois when she was introduced. Clana was their bread and butter, and it worked up until a certain point. By the end of season 5, Clana was supposed to be dead, but they still focused on it for the next three seasons, in what are considered the worst episodes of Smallville. But with Lex and Lana gone in season 8, they were able to focus more on "supporting characters" and they actually made Lois likable, so that when they do get together in season 9, it doesn't feel as forced, and in season 10, you understand why they need to be with each other.

But the way that the show is going now, it is extremely evident of who their target audience is, and who they consider to be more important to please. And it's definitely Reigns because at least Cena can garner some respect for what he's contributed in his time on top.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Not even true. I've been the first to say Season 1 was solid, but that romance at the end was completely unnecessary. Having Tommy on the show was great, because it gave the nice swerve that he wasn't the villain that Oliver would be facing, but having that triangle at season's end felt cheap and forced, even though it was evident that they wanted to build on the Laurel/Oliver reunion at some point in the show. They just did it way too soon and it hurt an otherwise good season. And that was definitely pandering.

But given the reality that KC is on the show, and expected to be a pivotal character in the series, it's not hard to see that they pretty much set her character to be hated and or useless for most of season 2. You bring in a Canary, who is already a badass, and you have her hookup with Oliver for part of the season, you basically make her what Dinah is supposed to be, even though that's who Laurel is supposed to be. They basically brought in one character that made an existing character useless. They eventually turned her into the Black Canary, but both her and Roy were able to get their own arc because Oliver was gone, so they couldn't focus on the romance aspect. Even now, Diggle, Thea, Laurel, they're only important when the plot calls for them to be. Otherwise, they're wallpaper. They do nothing for 3 straight episodes, then suddenly Oliver has to help them out with something or save someone they know, and suddenly they get some attention.

And for further reference, I was never a big Erica Durance fan and didn't care for Lois when she was introduced. Clana was their bread and butter, and it worked up until a certain point. By the end of season 5, Clana was supposed to be dead, but they still focused on it for the next three seasons, in what are considered the worst episodes of Smallville. But with Lex and Lana gone in season 8, they were able to focus more on "supporting characters" and they actually made Lois likable, so that when they do get together in season 9, it doesn't feel as forced, and in season 10, you understand why they need to be with each other.

But the way that the show is going now, it is extremely evident of who their target audience is, and who they consider to be more important to please. And it's definitely Reigns because at least Cena can garner some respect for what he's contributed in his time on top.

When they brought Sara in I believe she was unexpectedly popular which is why they followed up on her and now even reincarnated her into a separate show, from the very start Laurel has had difficulty in connecting with the audience due to the casting choice.

I don't know what Clana is, sorry, and I never saw any of the Smallville eps with Durance's Lois in so I can't offer any opinion there. It's Cena because Reigns has no popularity at all, where as Cena has a large chunk of popularity with a loud and malicious portion of the fan base hating on every single thing he does.

 

[Mikelus]

But given the reality that KC is on the show, and expected to be a pivotal character in the series, it's not hard to see that they pretty much set her character to be hated and or useless for most of season 2. You bring in a Canary, who is already a badass, and you have her hookup with Oliver for part of the season, you basically make her what Dinah is supposed to be, even though that's who Laurel is supposed to be. They basically brought in one character that made an existing character useless. They eventually turned her into the Black Canary, but both her and Roy were able to get their own arc because Oliver was gone, so they couldn't focus on the romance aspect. Even now, Diggle, Thea, Laurel, they're only important when the plot calls for them to be. Otherwise, they're wallpaper. They do nothing for 3 straight episodes, then suddenly Oliver has to help them out with something or save someone they know, and suddenly they get some attention.

And for further reference, I was never a big Erica Durance fan and didn't care for Lois when she was introduced. Clana was their bread and butter, and it worked up until a certain point. By the end of season 5, Clana was supposed to be dead, but they still focused on it for the next three seasons, in what are considered the worst episodes of Smallville. But with Lex and Lana gone in season 8, they were able to focus more on "supporting characters" and they actually made Lois likable, so that when they do get together in season 9, it doesn't feel as forced, and in season 10, you understand why they need to be with each other.

Agreed, and speaking of Smallville and this whole chemistry debate, some fans said back then that Tom Welling and Erica Durance had no chemistry or that he had better chemistry with Kristin Kreuk or Allison Mack, etc. I always saw the chemistry between Clark and Lois, but opinions are subjective, not facts.

Fact in philosophy

A "fact" can be defined as something that is the case—that is, a state of affairs.

Facts may be understood as information that makes a true sentence true.

Facts may also be understood as those things to which a true sentence refers. The statement "Jupiter is the largest planet in the solar system" is about the fact Jupiter is the largest planet in the solar system.

Fact in science

In science, a fact is a repeatable careful observation or measurement (by experimentation or other means), also called empirical evidence. Facts are central to building scientific theories. Various forms of observation and measurement lead to fundamental questions about the scientific method, and the scope and validity of scientific reasoning.

In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

I don't think Stephen Amell has a lot of charisma, I don't think he's a great actor either, but that's just my opinion, not a fact, other people feel differently and that's ok, it's just how life works.

 

[SpideyVille]

Agreed, and speaking of Smallville and this whole chemistry debate, some fans said back then that Tom Welling and Erica Durance had no chemistry or that he had better chemistry with Kristin Kreuk or Allison Mack, etc. I always saw the chemistry between Clark and Lois, but opinions are subjective, not facts.

Oh man, You just reminded me of all conspiracy theorists that felt Chloe was the real Lois and that she would end up with Clark in the end.

Ironic how she also developed a rabid fanbase that was, let's say, passionate enough to buy out commercial time to devote their appreciation of her.

[YT]-j_gnDWzm0o[/YT]
(Better Quality) https://vimeo.com/11766432

These are the same type of people I picture on Tumblr attacking Guggenheim the second Oliver shares a scene with a female that isn't Felicity.

 

[Paradox1]

Is that ****ing real? @spideyville

 

[SpideyVille]

Is that ****ing real? @spideyville

Yup.

http://chloe.legendarywomen.org/project.php

It was a fan project that I believe eventually aired during the Finale of season 9. I don't think it was aired nationally though, so only select stations aired it.