Comics Do you like the unmasking....THE POLL

[Arach Knight]

After seeing good - no, great - books like Runaways, Marvel Team-Up, and The Thing get cancelled due simply to poor sales, I must say, IMO, what you're proposing is just as bad as being a "Marvel Zombie".

If they are cancelled, that is Marvel's problem. Does The Thing really need his own book, when he is already in Fantastic Four? Do we really need to see Wolverine in two different books (Wolverine and Wolverine Origins) as well as in most of the X-Team books? Marvel over saturates their own market, with way too many titles. And when they aren't busy doing that, they find some way to piss off fans (Emma hooking up with Scott, Norman having sex with Gwen etc etc). Don't get me wrong. DC isn't exactly innocent but at least they do a half decent job with the juggling act. If I were to stop shopping at Wal-Mart because I don't support the fact that they hire illegal immigrants (which I don't shop at Wal-Mart and that is one of the reasons) does that mean I am punishing the legitimate workers? No...i'm no. This is no different. If you don't like the way a business operates, don't support it. If they aren't stable don't work for them. It's that simple. Nobody here is going to convince me otherwise. When the writing gets good, i'll maybe...maybe return, if I notice some consistency. Until then....DC For the Win.

 

[SpideyInATree]

The thing is though, you're not just punishing Quesada. You're punishing scores of good writers, and good artists who turn out great comics every week. Great comics you won't read simply because you don't like the company logo on the cover.

After seeing good - no, great - books like Runaways, Marvel Team-Up, and The Thing get cancelled due simply to poor sales, I must say, IMO, what you're proposing is just as bad as being a "Marvel Zombie".

There is no use in continuing. Basically the same thing I tried saying to Arach Knight.

Apparently he'd like to watch the comic book industry just swirl right down the toilet because of what is happening to Spider-Man. You and myself just gave him a quick basic list of fantastic Marvel titles to read instead but he'd rather throw a hissy fit about it.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I'll admit that I find his response a tad extreme, but so are your remarks. If he chooses not to support a company whose big cheese is just making one bad move after another, so what? That's his right. And his dropping the titles isn't going to send the industry down the toilet. But you know what might? Bad ideas & gratuitous changes for the sake of shaking up the status quo, when there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.

 

[Cyclops]

How are you supposed to send a message that you don't approve without hurting the people involved?

That's what strikes/boycotts do. He wants to send the message that he does not approve of Joe Quesada's Marvel, why shouldn't he stop buying Marvel Comics?

Obviously, they don't care about complaints on the Internet, so why not show your disapproval through your lack of purchase? If we want to enact change at Marvel, the only way we can influence it is to stop buying. Will it hurt the creators' income? You bet. But that's the only way to light a fire under their pants. 'Cause if they're comfortable, they won't change a thing.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Good point.

 

[Cyclops]

So don't feel forced into buying books from a company you want to boycott out of guilt for the creators' incomes. It may seem harsh, but boycotts only work if EVERYTHING is boycotted, not just select products.

 

[CConn]

If they are cancelled, that is Marvel's problem. Does The Thing really need his own book, when he is already in Fantastic Four?
Do we really need to see Wolverine in two different books (Wolverine and Wolverine Origins) as well as in most of the X-Team books? Marvel over saturates their own market, with way too many titles.

What does that have to do with quality? What does that have to do with the buying good books, and forgetting the rest? I mean, is that really a bad principle to have? To look for quality, rather than the ideological differences and agendas you have against a publisher?

And when they aren't busy doing that, they find some way to piss off fans (Emma hooking up with Scott, Norman having sex with Gwen etc etc). Don't get me wrong. DC isn't exactly innocent but at least they do a half decent job with the juggling act.

No, they really don't. They killed Superman, they broke Batman's back, brought in utter abominations to replace them (basically). They took some of the more endearingly comical and light characters from the JLI, and raped and murdered nearly every single one. Literally. Yeah, they're much better than Marvel.

If you don't like the way a business operates, don't support it. If they aren't stable don't work for them. It's that simple. Nobody here is going to convince me otherwise.

It's funny you brought up "Marvel Zombies". You know why DC fans, why I personally, get so damn annoyed - and well, loathsome - at them? Not because they like Marvel. Not because of their...exuberance. But because of their extremism. They're utterly extreme in every belief they have. It's, y'know, every thing that's Marvel is awesome, and everything that DC sucks. It's not being open to different books and characters and concepts. And what are you doing now? Exactly that. You're still a Marvel Zombie. You're still an extremist.

When the writing gets good, i'll maybe...maybe return, if I notice some consistency.

The writing is good. You've said it yourself a few posts back. So what is it?

Until then....DC For the Win.

As I, someone who has preferred DC for their entire life - and probably always will - no, they really don't.

 

[CConn]

How are you supposed to send a message that you don't approve without hurting the people involved?

You send a message that Spider-Man's direction sucks by not buying Spider-Man comics.

That's what strikes/boycotts do. He wants to send the message that he does not approve of Joe Quesada's Marvel, why shouldn't he stop buying Marvel Comics?

So you disagree with this handling of Daredevil and Punisher? You disagree with him putting Brubaker on Uncanny, and Whedon on Astonishing? Were those those bad moves? No, they weren't. They're fine, they're even great. I hate Joe Quesada as much as the next guy - I really do. But I can stop from giving the guy his just due when he deserves it. And truthfully, Marvel has some great comics coming out.

So don't feel forced into buying books from a company you want to boycott out of guilt for the creators' incomes. It may seem harsh, but boycotts only work if EVERYTHING is boycotted, not just select products.

That's utterly untrue. At least for comic books.

Sales on particular books dictate everything. Whether they live or die, whether they're cancelled or revamped, etc., etc. If you want to show Marvel their handling of Spider-Man sucks, stop buying Spider-Man comics. Not ****ing Runaways. All that would do is show them indy comics don't work.

 

[CConn]

There is no use in continuing. Basically the same thing I tried saying to Arach Knight.

Apparently he'd like to watch the comic book industry just swirl right down the toilet because of what is happening to Spider-Man. You and myself just gave him a quick basic list of fantastic Marvel titles to read instead but he'd rather throw a hissy fit about it.

Y'know, as a sort of "outsider" to Spider-Man comics (as he isn't my favorite character, and I don't really live or die by whatever happens to him - not that I'm like that with any character), it really is a shame to see so much of this behavior around these boards.

Y'know, I'm all over the place - Batman, Superman, Misc. Comics board, and really no other group of fans so extremely and so venomously as Spider-Man fans do. And for Spider-Man fans who, oddly, seem to have a lot of people who pride themselves on being such intellectuals, it really is a shame.

And I'm not even like you where I'm actually happy about this stuff. I think most of it sucks like a lot of people do. I dropped ASM months ago. But that doesn't mean I have to act like a loon about it.

 

[Cyclops]

You send a message that Spider-Man's direction sucks by not buying Spider-Man comics.

But you send a message that you dislike Quesada's decisions for Marvel by not buying Marvel.

So you disagree with this handling of Daredevil and Punisher? You disagree with him putting Brubaker on Uncanny, and Whedon on Astonishing? Were those those bad moves? No, they weren't. They're fine, they're even great. I hate Joe Quesada as much as the next guy - I really do. But I can stop from giving the guy his just due when he deserves it. And truthfully, Marvel has some great comics coming out.

Truth be told, I haven't bought comicbooks in over half a year because they're unavailable where I live. But I understand what he says. If he doesn't like Quesada and the way he's handling Marvel on a whole, then he shouldn't buy Marvel books. Plain and simple.

That's utterly untrue. At least for comic books.

Sales on particular books dictate everything. Whether they live or die, whether they're cancelled or revamped, etc., etc. If you want to show Marvel their handling of Spider-Man sucks, stop buying Spider-Man comics. Not ****ing Runaways. All that would do is show them indy comics don't work.

But sales on particular books won't oust an EIC. Sales for the whole publishing imprint will oust the EIC. You wanna get rid of Quesada, you do it by not buying ANY Marvel books.

And just because you boycott Marvel doesn't mean you necessarily send the whole industry down the drain. There is more out there than just Marvel, you know.

 

[CConn]

But you send a message that you dislike Quesada's decisions for Marvel by not buying Marvel.

Truth be told, I haven't bought comicbooks in over half a year because they're unavailable where I live. But I understand what he says. If he doesn't like Quesada and the way he's handling Marvel on a whole, then he shouldn't buy Marvel books. Plain and simple.

But sales on particular books won't oust an EIC. Sales for the whole publishing imprint will oust the EIC. You wanna get rid of Quesada, you do it by not buying ANY Marvel books.

Oh, I realize that. And agree with it. But he hasn't said Quesada is handling Marvel as a whole badly. He has said, because the Spider-Man books in particular are bad, that's caused him to lost interest in everything else. That's what I disagree with.

And just because you boycott Marvel doesn't mean you necessarily send the whole industry down the drain. There is more out there than just Marvel, you know.

No, of course not. While, something really bad happening to Marvel would be...really bad, it wouldn't kill the industry on its own. Still, I'm more concerned with individual good/great (Marvel) books losing readership.

 

[Cyclops]

I can understand that. There are alot of fans who aren't interested in Marvel on a whole. For example, in the early 90s, I read ONLY X-Men books. That was it. I didn't give a rat's ass about Spider-Man or the Avengers or the Fantastic Four. If I deemed the X-Men to suck at that time (hypothetically speaking - I was only eleven and my standards were lower) I would have dropped Marvel on a whole.

Maybe it's not such a bad idea though, to boycott Marvel on a whole to get Spider-Man fixed. Remember that boycotts aren't permanent. Marvel will want to get that quality back up so they can get their sales back if they lose enough.

Maybe I'm too willing to sacrifice some good books for overall improvement of the art form, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. After all, what's better? Three or four good books or an entire imprint full of good books, including flagship characters like Spider-Man? I mean, think about it. So a few books might fall. Wouldn't it be worth it though if a whole lot more books became readable again?

 

[CConn]

But my argument is, there isn't a lot of books that need to become more readable. Yes, Spider-Man sucks at the moment, but he's the tip of the Marvel iceberg. You have X-Men, and Daredevil, and Punisher, Hulk, etc., etc. that are, if not readable books, good, even great books. Why should all of those books suffer just because Spider-Man is suffering? That's certainly not improving the art form. IMO, at least.

 

[Arach Knight]

because Quesada insists on his sissy fits over how he hates the way Spider-Man was (because he has obviously something different now). Readers are free to voice opinions. we can send complaint letters...we can be bitter on message boards. Quesada has recognized this. JMS recognizes this (especially after being flamed by nearly every major internet message board, for Sins Past). Nothing however, is more effective than the power of the dollar. After all, didn't they reboot Spider-Man (in a failed effort) after the clone saga caused a decline in sales? It can happen again. And I will contribute to that. The best way I can show my discontent with Marvel, is to just not spend my money with them.

But he hasn't said Quesada is handling Marvel as a whole badly. He has said, because the Spider-Man books in particular are bad, that's caused him to lost interest in everything else. That's what I disagree with.

Yeah you are right, I completely never mentioned that I disliked the way Quesada is running things. Oh wait...I did...and you can see that right here in this quote from...bum bum bum, the other page! Holy read the whole thread Batman! We're on to something! All sarcasm aside though, I have kept the conversation Spidey oriented, because this is obviously a Spidey thread in a Spidey forum. But as you yourself quoted, I have made menton to other missteps along the way, that Marvel has made with other premiere characters and general practices. For instance, we have Civil War, which actually spans some 52 books (including all of the Civil War character specific titles, Civil War off shoots like Civil War Front Line and the actual core Civil War book). That is completely unnecessary and is only being done as some cheap method of competing with DC's far more clever 52 event (brilliantly merging real time and comic time). I disapprove of things like that, but I didn't feel it completely relavent to this thread, until now.

I appreciate comic books as an artform. If anybody is being extreme, it might be you CConn or even SpideyInATree, who said I wanted to see the whole comic industry go down the drain. If that were my intent, I wouldn't have wasted $10 (that's right...wasted) to go see Superman Returns. I wouldn't be reading DC comics right now, and I probably would have never bought X-Men Legends II and Ultimate Spider-Man for my PC. Only, "bring down the system" crazies like myself, would support the medium they apparently want to send down the drain. I never said I want comics to fail. I said i'd rather Marvel go bankrupt via my lack of contribution (assuming others joined in it) than to see them continuing to run Stan Lee/Ditko's/Kirby's characters into the ground. I already admitted that there are some really strong books that Marvel publishes, but if I don't like part of how something is being done, then why should I support it? You sound like some scab type who would work at a place that is on strike. I owe no loyalties to a company or even the men who write books I have or still do enjoy.

As the consumer, my only loyalty is to the standards of value that I set. And right now, Marvel partially fails to meet that standard. I never said I will never read a Marvel book again. But I will gladly wait for when the writing gets better. This isn't the first time i've done this. When the clone saga wrapped up with Ben Reily taking over as Spider-Man....I still gave them a shot. But when they introduced some horribl mechanized Scarlet Spider and had the new "Spider-Man" teaming up with the New Warriors, I knew it was time to leave the book alone, because things had gone horribly wrong.

I am sure that Marvel appreciates the both of you (CConn and SpideyInATree) and your seemingly unwavering devotion to the Marvel cause, but my fandom is not so extreme. I'm obviously not trolling. I've been on these forums for years now (my original name being The Arach Knight)...and nobody racks up over a thousand posts on 17 month old account,crafted around Spider-Man, because their sole intention was to eventually hate Spidey. Because I still love Spider-Man. I just don't love the phoney that JMS and Quesada have runninga round in Iron Man tights. Just like things got better after the clone saga, i'm sure things will be better after all of this garbage. But just like then, I won't be around while these guys clean the mess.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Like I said, I'm not quite there at this point. Yes, I feel that they are f***ing up royally, but I haven't given up yet.

 

[CConn]

Yeah you are right, I completely never mentioned that I disliked the way Quesada is running things. Oh wait...I did...and you can see that right here in this quote from...bum bum bum, the other page! Holy read the whole thread Batman! We're on to something! All sarcasm aside though, I have kept the conversation Spidey oriented, because this is obviously a Spidey thread in a Spidey forum. But as you yourself quoted, I have made menton to other missteps along the way, that Marvel has made with other premiere characters and general practices. For instance, we have Civil War, which actually spans some 52 books (including all of the Civil War character specific titles, Civil War off shoots like Civil War Front Line and the actual core Civil War book). That is completely unnecessary and is only being done as some cheap method of competing with DC's far more clever 52 event (brilliantly merging real time and comic time). I disapprove of things like that, but I didn't feel it completely relavent to this thread, until now.

I appreciate comic books as an artform. If anybody is being extreme, it might be you CConn or even SpideyInATree, who said I wanted to see the whole comic industry go down the drain. If that were my intent, I wouldn't have wasted $10 (that's right...wasted) to go see Superman Returns. I wouldn't be reading DC comics right now, and I probably would have never bought X-Men Legends II and Ultimate Spider-Man for my PC. Because only bring down the system crazies like myself, would support the medium they apparently want to send down the drain. I never said I want comics to fail. I said i'd rather Marvel go bankrupt via my lack of contribution (assuming others joined in it) than to see them continuing to run Stan Lee/Ditko's/Kirby's characters into the ground. I already admitted that there are some really strong books that Marvel publishe, but if I don't like part of how something is being done, then why should I support it? You sound like some scab type who would work at a place that is on strike. I owe no loyalties to a company or even the men who write books I have or still do enjoy.

As the consumer, my only loyalty is to the standards of value that I set. And right now, Marvel partially fales to meet that standard. I never said I will never read a Marvel book again. But I will gladly wait for when the writing gets better. This isn't the first time i've done this. When the clone saga wrapped up with Ben Reily taking over as Spider-Man....I still gave them a shot. But when they introduced some horribl mechanized Scarlet Spider and had the new "Spider-Man" teaming up with the New Warriors, I knew it was time to leave the book alone, because things had gone horribly wrong.

I am sure that Marvel appreciates the both of you (CConn and SpideyInATree) and your seemingly unwavering devotion to the Marvel cause, but my fandom is not so extreme. I'm obviously not trolling. I've been on these forums for years now (my original name being The Arach Knight)...and nobody racks up over a thousand posts on 17 month old account,crafted around Spider-Man, because their sole intention was to eventually hate Spidey. Because I still love Spider-Man. I just don't love the phoney that JMS and Quesada have runninga round in Iron Man tights. Just like things got better after the clone saga, i'm sure things will be better after all of this garbage. But just like then, I won't be around while these guys clean the mess.

Despite my now 5 posts on the matter, you still seem to miss my point. I'm not suggesting any devotion to Marvel, or writers, or the Spider-Man books. My point is, and always has been, that is a book is good, if you enjoy it, then it should be purchased despite whatever company is publishing it. There's no devotion in that...except to good writing. Except to good books.

And so far, all you have done, is continuously advocate suffering of many good books, to (possibly) help a few books. That's not trolling, that's not not being a Spider-Man, that's being selfish.

 

[SpideyInATree]

How are you supposed to send a message that you don't approve without hurting the people involved?

That's what strikes/boycotts do. He wants to send the message that he does not approve of Joe Quesada's Marvel, why shouldn't he stop buying Marvel Comics?

Obviously, they don't care about complaints on the Internet, so why not show your disapproval through your lack of purchase? If we want to enact change at Marvel, the only way we can influence it is to stop buying. Will it hurt the creators' income? You bet. But that's the only way to light a fire under their pants. 'Cause if they're comfortable, they won't change a thing.

But Arach Knight only seems to be upset with the state of Spider-Man. So, punish the ENTIRE company because of JOE QUESADA?!

I don't know the guy or, honestly, WANT to know the guy but I think Arach Knight, and many others around here, are letting one man get to them far too much.

Hey, if Arach Knight wants to miss out on some really quality books that Marvel puts out that AREN'T Spider-Man, that's his decision. But it's not going to solve anything, in my opinion.

 

[Cyclops]

How else are you supposed to get rid of the boss? If you want the boss gone, how do you get rid of him?

Please tell me, because I want to know. If you want a certain creator off of a certain book, you can stop buying the book, but if you want to change the EIC of a whole company, how do you do that without causing the company on a whole to drop in sales?

 

[CConn]

If he was running the company poorly enough to deserve to be fired, there'd be a very small, limited number of quality books to buy. So thusly, Marvel's sales would still be in a deep decline if my...philosophy on it was implemented.

It's just common sense. If you buy the right books, it shows them exactly what's good, and exactly what's bad, and exact what and where Quesada is doing wrong.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

but Quesada is not raping JUST ANY BOOK. He's raping MARVEL'S FLAGSHIP CHARACTER'S BOOK.and there lies the problem... Not buying Amazing would only get rid of JMS... As bad as it sounds to get rid of the spidey-rapist supreme... some extreme measures have to be taken...

 

[Chris Wallace]

Again, partly due to the fact that Spidey IS the "flagship character", what happens to him affects the Marvel Universe as a whole. So you can't just say "Oh, it's only Spider-Man that they're screwing up."

 

[Cyclops]

but Quesada is not raping JUST ANY BOOK. He's raping MARVEL'S FLAGSHIP CHARACTER'S BOOK.and there lies the problem... Not buying Amazing would only get rid of JMS... As bad as it sounds to get rid of the spidey-rapist supreme... some extreme measures have to be taken...

Arguably the ENTIRE INDUSTRY'S FLAGSHIP CHARACTER.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Arguably the ENTIRE INDUSTRY'S FLAGSHIP CHARACTER.

That's debatable; there are those who'd give that title to Superman.

 

[Cyclops]

Hence why I said "arguably".

 

[Spydernorbs]

I got it all figured out....all we have to do is find someone who will listen to us...someone who will fight on our side. Fatty (Joey Q) only listens to PAID message boarders...in other words, you have a paided email, you can get on the bendis boards and such...you have to pay, sure it's to prevent spam, but come on...so we find a guy that listens to US and not Bendis Joey Q groupies, we should be fine. It's a simple solution....just never gonna happen.