Comics Enough crying, lets take our fight to Joey Q!

[Styleshift]

lol...
Joey Q is so poor at defending himself lol....
One of Joey Q's reasons was look at every incarnation of spider-man. from movie to cartoon. he's always single. thats how he works best.

he doesn't acknowledge the fact that every carnation outside of amazing has him starting his career as Spider-man. you can't expect a 16 year old to be married now can you?

 

[Styleshift]

II believe that Styleshift mentions that this version wouldn't have messed up continuity that much, but I fail to see how this version couldn't have done anything BUT mess up continuity.

hey hey hey hey heeeeey there.
I never once said it wouldn't mess up continuity that much. while it still messes up continuity. it still makes more sense.


I was explaining that they might have well done it. we have another clone saga on our hands. there going to ignore everything before one more day. and you have to know that. its all just magic. "they don't have to explain it"

You really think there going to acknowledge an arc where Peter and Mj lived with the avengers? where tabloids thought that Mj was cheating on peter with Tony?

you mean to tell me....Iron man's beef with Spidey is almost TOTALLY irrelevant now? wouldn't he wonder why he doesn't remember who spidey is if he built him a costume? so how did he fight peter without his mask in omd if he suddenly doesn't remember? Iron man is too smart to just simply forget.

where there is records in shield of Peter's identity? let alone in the news papers? no thats too difficult. instead there going to go forward and hope no one looks back. outside comics spidey is probably the most famous marriage. people will not forget. and people who say hey maybe i should look into this will be confused and most will think they divorced.

 

[Themanofbat]

I don't see how you can say that definatively since no one has ever seen his version. I can't think of too much that would have made OMD worse, save Joe's original idea to bring back gwen instead of harry. JMS' version would also have gotten rid of sin's past, which I think almost everyone agrees would be a positive thing.

True. and it wouldn't have torn continuity up as much. and Harry's death not happening would of made sense.

With Gwen being alive it would of made sense as to why Peter isn't with Mj anymore.

Would have been so much better. STILL with that said there still would be fan outcry since anyway you slice it. continuity would be stirred up.

after already having JMS make chances to fit in black in black between one more day to cash in on the black suit in the movie.

They changed his story at the last minute. to match there Brand new day vision. and he didn't like that. I wouldn't either if they kept screwing with my work.

hey hey hey hey heeeeey there.
I never once said it wouldn't mess up continuity that much. while it still messes up continuity. it still makes more sense.

See above.

I was explaining that they might have well done it. we have another clone saga on our hands. there going to ignore everything before one more day. and you have to know that. its all just magic. "they don't have to explain it"

You really think there going to acknowledge an arc where Peter and Mj lived with the avengers? where tabloids thought that Mj was cheating on peter with Tony?

you mean to tell me....Iron man's beef with Spidey is almost TOTALLY irrelevant now? wouldn't he wonder why he doesn't remember who spidey is if he built him a costume? so how did he fight peter without his mask in omd if he suddenly doesn't remember? Iron man is too smart to just simply forget.

where there is records in shield of Peter's identity? let alone in the news papers? no thats too difficult. instead there going to go forward and hope no one looks back. outside comics spidey is probably the most famous marriage. people will not forget. and people who say hey maybe i should look into this will be confused and most will think they divorced.

Truth be told, I have no idea what Marvel is going to do.

However, it would be extremely presumptuous of myself (and anyone else for that matter) to assume that Marvel is simply going to ignore what happened pre-OMD... I know people want answers NOW, but it's not going to happen... they're obviously trying to re-establish the character with new plots, villains & supporting cast members... and along the way, we're going to see things explained, and that's good storytelling in my opinion... give the readers a reason to keep coming back.

And as far as all of those S.H.I.E.L.D. & Iron Man questions, again, I'm preferring the wait & see approach. Marvel prides itself on its continuity, and they'd be very naive to think that the average "Marvel Zombie" (for lack of a better word) would simply not look back. Spider-Man is a character built on his rich past, and his past will always be the source of wonderful stories to come, so I don't believe that they're simply going to "hope" everybody forgets.

I have a hard time believing that...

So in themeantime, as I've been saying since January, I'm going to enjoy the books for what they are NOW, with the hopes that explanations are forthcoming within the year.

 

[USMC]

I can say that because I know what his version of the story would entail, and what the continuity ramifications would have been (i.e. colossal ****-up).

No, you don't. Or else you would have included the part about JMS saying he had spent a great deal of time mapping out the entire history of Spidey and showing how he could have made a change while leaving the majority of Spidey's history completely intact.

Like it or not, it still would have been better than "It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

 

[Themanofbat]

No, you don't. Or else you would have included the part about JMS saying he had spent a great deal of time mapping out the entire history of Spidey and showing how he could have made a change while leaving the majority of Spidey's history completely intact.

Like it or not, it still would have been better than "It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

Heh heh... those were Mary Jane's only words at the end of the current ASM... t:

I never heard of any mapping out Spidey's history had things been changed with ASM #98... if you can post it (or a link), I'd be very interested in reading it.

 

[Blader5489]

No, you don't. Or else you would have included the part about JMS saying he had spent a great deal of time mapping out the entire history of Spidey and showing how he could have made a change while leaving the majority of Spidey's history completely intact.

Which is compelte ********. The guy couldn't even get the continuity of the black suit straight, you expected him to successfully map out over 400 issues? Even if he was successful at that, I wouldn't want him to completely redo over 30 years of history.

With the OMD we got, I just have to make a few small changes to the last 20 years of issues. That's easy, I can reconcile those in my head (especially since the vast majority of the last 20 years are totally irrelevant to the character's history). But to completely rewrite everything since ASM #98? That's just unacceptable.

 

[USMC]

Heh heh... those were Mary Jane's only words at the end of the current ASM... t:

I never heard of any mapping out Spidey's history had things been changed with ASM #98... if you can post it (or a link), I'd be very interested in reading it.

I'll see if I can dig it up.

Hopefully, i didn't just put my foot in my mouth.

 

[USMC]

Ah, here it is... I guess "mapping out Spidey's entire history" was a bit strong... but the overall concept remains:

"What I wanted to do was to make one small change to history, a tiny thing, whose ripples we could control to only touch what editorial wanted to touch, making changes we could explain logically. I worked for weeks to come up with a timeline that would leave every other bit of continuity in place. It was rigorous, and as logical as I could make it. In the end of OMD as published, Harry is alive and he's always been alive as far as the characters know...so how is that different than he was alive the whole time?

It made no sense to me.

Still doesn't. It's sloppy. It violates every rule of writing fiction of the fantastic that I and every other SF/Fantasy writer knows you can't violate. It's fantasy 101."

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756

It's about halfway down the article...

Anyhow, my point was that everyone knows what a talent JMS is, and I believe that if he already came up with a better explanation for erasing the marriage whilst keeping continuity more or less intact, than I would probably have had an easier time swallowing BND...

I agree with him in that the continuity of BND makes little to NO sense, IMO... it does nothing but bring up numerous questions.

But as TMOB pointed out, and I realized weeks later, I am willing to see what Marvel comes up with from here on out. But I won't give them my money until they do.

 

[Styleshift]

give the readers a reason to keep coming back.

lol...have you seen how many fans have burned up and ripped up asm 545? that is NOT a good sign.

True though I did contradict myself..... i was aware of the 10 plus years added to the 20 years of already screwed up continuity.which would be even MORE screwed up on the older readers. I give you that.

What I really meant was if they were going to retcon things don't go halfway.

If they want to play with 70's spidey bring back everyone. I'd be glad to see that. than they wouldn't have any excuse. but they got what they wanted....and as long as we keep seeing lack luster villians like MR. NEGATIVE and FREAK THE DRUGSSSSS MONSTER. than we'll see they just simply have reached the end of the road with spidey.

 

[Arach Knight]

Magic is a force that goes beyond the limitations of science and known human knowledge. It constitutes a body of phenomena that occur without any rational, logical or definitively explainable process. From that interview, it seems that JMS' perspective is that a spell to undo the marriage and save may, should only do those two things. But why should magic be so limited when it has no means of being explained (since it has no real life juxtaposion)? Does Doctor Strange explain an enchantment that causes his hide out to look like an abandoned Starbucks in World War Hulk? Of course not.

I do not expect a devil to deal fairly, which is why a wise man would avoid such transactions. But the fact of the matter is, Peter made a request of the devil and the devil carried out that request as they saw fit. It's sort of like that movie Wishmaster. A man wished to escape (he meant from his daily routine) and the Wishmaster magically summoned a water tank and a straight jacket, trapping the man inside both (thus killing him). Anyone expecting a purely logical resolve out of magic is seriously over analyzing an element of fiction that has no bearing on reality or logic in the first place. I'm not saying that magic was the best solution for the story but for its use in the story, I don't think too much more can be asked for, in terms of how it works.

 

[Styleshift]

I agree with him in that the continuity of BND makes little to NO sense, IMO... it does nothing but bring up numerous questions.

But as TMOB pointed out, and I realized weeks later, I am willing to see what Marvel comes up with from here on out. But I won't give them my money until they do.

lol...I think I just now LITERALLY Couldn't have said those things better myself USMC. I'll come back if the stories really pick up. but right now i don't see the point in buying just another Ultimate Spider-man comic.

By the way it's good to see you back into the mix Arach Knight. Good explanation on the magic theory. I can see it better now when you explained it. but it just felt like an on the spot excuse when Joey Q. said it.

as for Spidey dealing with mephisto...not in his league. and Ghost rider is a walking example of just how that guy will mess with people.

 

[Themanofbat]

as for Spidey dealing with mephisto...not in his league. and Ghost rider is a walking example of just how that guy will mess with people.

There IS a precedent of Spider-Man stopping Mephisto (along with Cloak, Dagger & Ghost Rider) in Cloak & Dagger vol.3 #16 to 18, but I will agree that he is definitely out of his league.

And there have been hints that when dealing with the devil, there is a price... and that price has been Harry Osborn. How this plays out, we've yet to see. Personally, I'm thinking that maybe Harry & MJ will date again, and possibly get married... wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts to Peter.

 

[Themanofbat]

lol...have you seen how many fans have burned up and ripped up asm 545? that is NOT a good sign.

No... but I DO know that 124,406 people bought and paid for a copy of ASM #545.

 

[Arach Knight]

I think there has been too much of a focus on how the magic will work (which is obvious...its magic). There needs to be a focus on the consequence of the use of magic. The after effect is more important in my mind, because we need to see how the mass mind wipe, the restoration of Harry to the 616 time line and the undoing of the marriage, will effect the storylines since 1971. I can understand that magic can undo and redo whatever it wants. That is what makes it so fun to write/read about. What I don't know however, is how they will reconcile things. Perhaps that is more of the point that JMS was getting at. I'm not quite sure if that is the case, but that seems to be a more reasonable argument.

 

[Styleshift]

Yeah Spidey took him Mephisto down in a team. not one on one.
But one thing that really gets at me that no one seems to address is the fact of in explanation of about Peter's view of the unmasking. that people saw spidey unmask. however no one seems to remember who's face was underneath.

Does this involve Peter to? thats pretty big not to try to figure out what happened...
and we've seen smaller stuff bother Peter for arcs...not just a couple of issues. Instead they want to tell us everything still happened...while there are some people that HAD to know he was spidey for some of those stories to have happened.

 

[Arach Knight]

At this point, the only way this retcon will work, is if the mind wipe on his identity was not selective. knowledge of his secret identity will have to be wiped even from trusted allies. Otherwise, some of the questions brought up in this discussion, would be more than valid. How else would Tony Stark or Reed Richards no longer have as strong a grudge to detain Spidey, unless they too forgot his identity. Which would mean that Tony will have to have forgotten that Peter was employed with him as well. I see this all as being like House of M. Magic occurs and undoes what ever it feels like.

Magic seems to be Marvels approach to mass continuity retcons. It beats convoluted year long maxi-series books though. In a way it seems like Marvel is using an explanation in order to create an acceptable flow. But at the same time, it seems like they would rather just say "disregard all of this so we can start from here." Sometimes I feel it is worse to explain too much. That is what kind of wrecks something like 52, where suddenly Power Girl comes from Earth 2 and other DC heroes come from various alternate realities (which is established but still aggrivating to read).

 

[Themanofbat]

Magic seems to be Marvels approach to mass continuity retcons. It beats convoluted year long maxi-series books though. In a way it seems like Marvel is using an explanation in order to create an acceptable flow. But at the same time, it seems like they would rather just say "disregard all of this so we can start from here." Sometimes I feel it is worse to explain too much. That is what kind of wrecks something like 52, where suddenly Power Girl comes from Earth 2 and other DC heroes come from various alternate realities (which is established but still aggrivating to read).

It is better than a Superboy Prime Retcon Punch... t: t: t:

 

[Themanofbat]

I think there has been too much of a focus on how the magic will work (which is obvious...its magic). There needs to be a focus on the consequence of the use of magic. The after effect is more important in my mind, because we need to see how the mass mind wipe, the restoration of Harry to the 616 time line and the undoing of the marriage, will effect the storylines since 1971. I can understand that magic can undo and redo whatever it wants. That is what makes it so fun to write/read about. What I don't know however, is how they will reconcile things. Perhaps that is more of the point that JMS was getting at. I'm not quite sure if that is the case, but that seems to be a more reasonable argument.

With the JQ version of OMD, we only need to woory about the effects of the stories from 1987.

 

[Miken Ayers]

No... but I DO know that 124,406 people bought and paid for a copy of ASM #545.

He's right there. Burning something you gave someone money for is hardly sticking it to them. It doesn't make the money go away.

 

[Styleshift]

It is better than a Superboy Prime Retcon Punch... t: t: t:

Can't disagree with you there pal.
which is why when I heard that...I don't pick up anything superboy prime punch related....

cept for the red hood story...only time they got me. lol.

 

[Styleshift]

He's right there. Burning something you gave someone money for is hardly sticking it to them. It doesn't make the money go away.

I never said it did. (and this time i'm sure of that. )
I just think it's pretty bad when you screw something up so bad that someone can go THAT far to destroy it to feel at least some satisfaction. the fans have already wasted there money. theres really no other way to stick it to them unless sales SERIOUSLY drop and they haven't yet.

No loss for Marvel. people are still buying it because its spider-man. NOT the marriage of peter parker. as for me I'll read. but i don't support it with my money. If the quality gets better and we see GOOD stories within reason that can't happen with married parker. Than I'll support BND like a good boy.

 

[Miken Ayers]

I never said it did. (and this time i'm sure of that. )
I just think it's pretty bad when you screw something up so bad that someone can go THAT far to destroy it to feel at least some satisfaction. the fans have already wasted there money. theres really no other way to stick it to them unless sales SERIOUSLY drop and they haven't yet.

No loss for Marvel. people are still buying it because its spider-man. NOT the marriage of peter parker. as for me I'll read. but i don't support it with my money. If the quality gets better and we see GOOD stories within reason that can't happen with married parker. Than I'll support BND like a good boy.

Well like any business decision the only reason anyone does anything is with the hopes of sales going up, so they haven't done that either. Now I'll admit I loved the newest issue, but if anymore attention was given to this new status quo I probably wouldn't be too happy with it.

Also I think Marvel's gonna have things go back the way they were in such a gradual matter that once people notice they can say, "That's what we planned on doing the whole time, but everyone jumped the gun."

 

[Styleshift]

Well like any business decision the only reason anyone does anything is with the hopes of sales going up, so they haven't done that either. Now I'll admit I loved the newest issue, but if anymore attention was given to this new status quo I probably wouldn't be too happy with it.

Also I think Marvel's gonna have things go back the way they were in such a gradual matter that once people notice they can say, "That's what we planned on doing the whole time, but everyone jumped the gun."

True,
OMD is still down right insulting though. 20 years of comics and we're being told none of them happened the way we read them. I haven't jumped the gun in terms of saying things sucked and forever will suck. Dan slott is the man. he'll write a good story eventually...zeb wells and marc gu...G. (lol) have done awesome as well.

But looking at the whole picture. They've convoluted more stuff. and in the past years it seems like they've been dishing out stuff like the other because they wanted to test the water and because knew they'd be doing a reboot eventually and would be taking it all back. the whole other situation will forever be a lingering subplot. i feel cheated out of my money since i was supporting my fav. comic...and thats not right.

 

[Miken Ayers]

True,
OMD is still down right insulting though. 20 years of comics and we're being told none of them happened the way we read them. I haven't jumped the gun in terms of saying things sucked and forever will suck. Dan slott is the man. he'll write a good story eventually...zeb wells and marc gu...G. (lol) have done awesome as well.

But looking at the whole picture. They've convoluted more stuff. and in the past years it seems like they've been dishing out stuff like the other because they wanted to test the water and because knew they'd be doing a reboot eventually and would be taking it all back. the whole other situation will forever be a lingering subplot. i feel cheated out of my money since i was supporting my fav. comic...and thats not right.

Yeah I love these retcons that are done to simplify things, but if you started after the retcon sooner or later you have to read it for things to make sense. And it's not like a casual reader is provided with footnotes to know to track these down.

Kind of like how new readers to DC are lost without first reading Infinite Crisis, and Zero Hour. Probably Infinite Crisis and 52, and Countdown along with the several spin off minis. Marvel seems like they're heading down this path with OMD/BND.

And you must have a stronger stomach than me to be able to stand Zeb Wells.

 

[USMC]

I think there has been too much of a focus on how the magic will work (which is obvious...its magic). There needs to be a focus on the consequence of the use of magic. The after effect is more important in my mind, because we need to see how the mass mind wipe, the restoration of Harry to the 616 time line and the undoing of the marriage, will effect the storylines since 1971. I can understand that magic can undo and redo whatever it wants. That is what makes it so fun to write/read about. What I don't know however, is how they will reconcile things. Perhaps that is more of the point that JMS was getting at. I'm not quite sure if that is the case, but that seems to be a more reasonable argument.

Which is the problem... according to JMS, Joe Q said " It's magic, we don't have to explain it." I think that is what frustrated him.

I know that is probably what frustrates me most. That OMD was so flippantly done just to make Peter single again. There was no respect given at all to the characters of Peter and Mary Jane.

And now that Peter is single again... the stories are OK, but seriously, they are nothing to write home about. I would have preferred that Pete/MJ were married and see how competent writers could make it good, just like the beginning of JMS's run was. Or at the worst, divorce them. That would have made sense.

I think this whole "ages the character" excuse that has been shoved down fans throats is asinine and ridiculous. It's just a lame excuse to push an agenda. It assumes that fans are idiots or incapable of dealing with such a heavy storyline. Instead we got a magical BONG of a clock and suddenly the entire planet has holes in their memories, Aunt May is some kind of undead creature, Harry is back from the dead "because it's cool to have him in the books", and MJ will possibly be the lamest superhero since Typeface.

Meh, whatever floats ya'lls boat.