Fant4stic: Reborn! - - - - Part 23

[spideyboy_1111]

Actually UFF, yeah they have....and even in the Marvel Knights you had a dark and gritty story in Marvel Knights F4 1,2,3,4 even in the artwork by Jae Lee....it was one of the, if not the darkest story that I have read. And the Civil Arc certainly hasn't been this....

I understand if people don't want a darker, gritty F4 movie, but to say that the F4 have never been dark and gritty in 616 or UFF is just not correct.

Overall, no they are nothing like Wolverine, but they have had a harder edge to them even in 616 for awhile.

As i said before, a few darker stories dont suddenly dictate the brand. Spidey has had really dark stories, but that doesnt mean all his movies should be dark. It not his character. Id feel different about the tone if they already had a franchise up and running and wanted to do a serious story (like winter soldier) but not the first film out of the gate

 

[RAE072]

I meant in terms of Batman killing people in cold blood with explosives. That wasn't Batman to me.

And that's not a good thing. We shouldn't be giving THIS movie a pass for not being the Fantastic Four just because Tim Burton's Batman wasn't Batman.

Tim Burton's Batman had a lot of problems in both writing and Batman as a character.

But it was more or less given a pass because of the scope of the movie, the tone(first Batman movie since Adam West), and being one of a VERY few comic book movies of the time.

Comic book movies aren't rare anymore. We don't have to settle for anything. And the whole "we have to change the ridiculous aspects or general audiences won't like it!1!" BS argument went out the window with Guardians of the Galaxy.

"Ridiculous" aspects CAN work if you apply talent, creativity, and respect/love for the source material. Changing them because they're ridiculous or you're an "artiste who must make it his own" is ********.

 

[Dasher10]

Ok here's the thing you arn't getting... i have no problem with dark and gritty for characters who have a tone that fits... but the avengers, the justice league, the fantastic four... should not be "dark and gritty" the least of which should be the fantastic four who are not known for that tone.

so yes, of course i despise this film

Actually, with Avengers and Justice League, they both have their share of dark stories. Secret Invasion was an incredibly dark story and certain individual members of the Avengers and Justice League can go dark.

The FF have had dark stories like Unthinkable and Three, they just aren't dark characters. I'm fine with a dark origin as long as the series doesn't stay that way after the first film.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Currently. Long lived franchises go through phases. Going in a more sci-fi direction than the typical action/adventure tentpole seems to be a reasonable offshoot of the FF. Of course, we still have to wait for the execution.

Sci-fi doesnt have to be dark and gritty...star wars, doctor who and star trek all say hello

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't feel like dark equals dated. The Sam Raimi Spider-Man films were plenty light in tone.

Again, I feel like this will be like Burton's Batman which wasn't true to the character but was still plenty iconic. We may not be getting the FF that we want but at the very least Doom's voice sounds better which counts for something.

? What do the raimi films have to do with anything? They WERE the films that ushered in the fact you didnt need to be dark and gritty

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Please. Burton's Batman was aesthetically brilliant. This is not.

Yeah, this has no flare and style at all to support that opinion. Burton is full of brilliance, trank does not have an ounce of that

 

[Dasher10]

And that's not a good thing. We shouldn't be giving THIS movie a pass for not being the Fantastic Four just because Tim Burton's Batman wasn't Batman.

Tim Burton's Batman had a lot of problems in both writing and Batman as a character.

But it was more or less given a pass because of the scope of the movie, the tone(first Batman movie since Adam West), and being one of a VERY few comic book movies of the time.

Comic book movies aren't rare anymore. We don't have to settle for anything. And the whole "we have to change the ridiculous aspects or general audiences won't like it!1!" BS argument went out the window with Guardians of the Galaxy.

"Ridiculous" aspects CAN work if you apply talent, creativity, and respect/love for the source material. Changing them because they're ridiculous or you're an "artiste who must make it his own" is ********.

Problems with writing? The only problems that I had with the Burton Batman films was that they weren't faithful. I still find both films to be perfectly watchable even though Penguin was somehow no longer human, Catwoman had superpowers and Batman went on a killing spree.

And there were also plenty of problems with the source material of the FF. Anything written by Tom DeFalco lands there with Sue turning into a hrony rabbit who needs to show off her cleavage and Wolverine slashing Ben's face off, as did Mark Millar's work where Doom was somehow serving the Marquis of Death when Doom has never before been depicted as being submissive. Those are ridiculous elements with the source material which I wouldn't bother adapting because I find them out of character for what I consider to be the, "real" FF.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Actually, with Avengers and Justice League, they both have their share of dark stories. Secret Invasion was an incredibly dark story and certain individual members of the Avengers and Justice League can go dark.

The FF have had dark stories like Unthinkable and Three, they just aren't dark characters. I'm fine with a dark origin as long as the series doesn't stay that way after the first film.

Again... a few dark stories do not change the tone of the entire franchise, nor does it suddenly give them grounded realism and dark more realistic costuming....

As long as trank is doing this and people like his vision... the tone aint changing. You can go more serious, but you cant start off that way and go light. You will lose your audience

 

[Dasher10]

? What do the raimi films have to do with anything? They WERE the films that ushered in the fact you didnt need to be dark and gritty

They were made before Christopher Nolan's Batman. People are acting like Guardians was a massive game changer and making anything dark ever again is a terrible decision and also a dated one.

I'd rather see a variety of tones.

 

[Dasher10]

Again... a few dark stories do not change the tone of the entire franchise, nor does it suddenly give them grounded realism and dark more realistic costuming....

As long as trank is doing this and people like his vision... the tone aint changing. You can go more serious, but you cant start off that way and go light. You will lose your audience

Captain America: TFA, lighthearted homage to Indiana Jones. CA:TWS, dark and gritty sequel. Both films were successful. What audience was lost there?

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I feel like whatever people are complaining about now won't be what they are complaining about once the movie comes out. Same thing happened with Man of Steel.

The Destruction porn/neck snap took center stage.

Sci-fi doesnt have to be dark and gritty...star wars, doctor who and star trek all say hello

People complained about Doctor Who being too dark and not for kids when Moffat took over all the time.

Dark and gritty lost all meaning a while ago.

 

[moviedoors]

We shouldn't be giving THIS movie a pass for not being the Fantastic Four just because Tim Burton's Batman wasn't Batman.

Agreed. Batman Returns wasn't not a good movie because it strayed from the essential nature of the characters; it wasn't a good movie because it was a bloated, overlong, tonally inconsistent mess. We should should judge movies based on their own individual merits.

 

[Dasher10]

TASM was a dark, gritty reboot where only during the scene in the car, did I feel like Andrew Garfield was Spider-Man.

TASM2 didn't fail because it lightened the tone, it failed because Green Goblin felt more like the main character, there were too many subplots, some of the acting by minor characters was cringeworthy and Jamie Foxx was cast as Electro and then did nothing interesting in the role. Then the film ends on a low note with Gwen's death.

It wasn't because TASM2 tried to be a more fun film than its predecessor, it was because it wasn't a good film.

 

[Dasher10]

Agreed. Batman Returns wasn't not a good movie because it strayed from the essential nature of the characters; it wasn't a good movie because it was a bloated, overlong, tonally inconsistent mess. We should should judge movies based on their own individual merits.

You're in the minority on that one.

 

[moviedoors]

You're in the minority on that one.

About Batman Returns or judging movies based on their individual merits?

 

[Dasher10]

I feel like whatever people are complaining about now won't be what they are complaining about once the movie comes out. Same thing happened with Man of Steel.

The Destruction porn/neck snap took center stage.



People complained about Doctor Who being too dark and not for kids when Moffat took over all the time.

Dark and gritty lost all meaning a while ago.

I liked the destruction porn in MOS. If you're strong enough to be a threat to Superman, you're strong enough to wreck a whole city. And Superman gets punched through plenty of buildings in the comics as well as in animation.

And Superman killed Zod in the comics as well as Superman 2.

 

[Dasher10]

About Batman Returns or judging movies based on their individual merits?

About Batman Returns. Most agree that it was a good movie, just not a good Batman film.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

They were made before Christopher Nolan's Batman. People are acting like Guardians was a massive game changer and making anything dark ever again is a terrible decision and also a dated one.

I'd rather see a variety of tones.

I can count on 1 hand the people who are saying that and meaning just that.. no one is saying all comic films have been dark since and before batman begins... i dont know where youre getting that... and yes, gotg is a game changing film. But many are


The way i look at it...

- x-men and blade rejuvenated the superhero genre and get credit for that (how ever they changed the tone and many things from the comics in those films.

- spider-man was a love letter to new york in a time the country needed it most. It also showetd you dont have to be dark and gritty. However, there still were notes of restricted realism and questionable changes, like organic webbing, the goblin costume, genetically altered spider, peter basically killing the burglar, and mj over fwen as his first love.

- next game changer was nolan's batman begins which told us that batman can indeed work, and the dark knight showed us superheroes can be taken quite seriously and be critically praised films.

-iron man , it showed us you can take a lesser known hero, stay faithful and create a great film

-the avengers showed us you can establish a universe , a sandbox full of characters that intertwine. You can build it, and keep things in the same tone as the comics. The mcu has shown us you can trust good characters to tell good stories without altering much at all

- guardians of the galaxy showed us you can take a completely unheard of property, and take what sound ridiculous on paper (talking tree and raccoon) and not only make it fun, and adventurous, but also manage to make it believable and taken seriously as well... without being dark and gritty.

These are the game changers of the modern superhero film. And its funny... the better the film, the more faithful they seem to be getting as well

 

[moviedoors]

About Batman Returns. Most agree that it was a good movie, just not a good Batman film.

Really? I had no idea how that movie was regarded these days by fandom. I find it tedious myself. Burton's strong suit isn't strong narratives with forward momentum. He has a good sense of how a scene should play, but less so a sense of how those scenes aggregate together into something coherent. That wandering tone and style of plot has served him better in other pictures.

But, alas, I digress.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Captain America: TFA, lighthearted homage to Indiana Jones. CA:TWS, dark and gritty sequel. Both films were successful. What audience was lost there?

Did you not read my post? You can start light and go dark. You cant do the opposite... not without people comparing it to batman forever/robin

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I feel like whatever people are complaining about now won't be what they are complaining about once the movie comes out. Same thing happened with Man of Steel.

The Destruction porn/neck snap took center stage.



People complained about Doctor Who being too dark and not for kids when Moffat took over all the time.

Dark and gritty lost all meaning a while ago.

... im specifically talking about the last 3 soctors... specifically. That is the tone of how the f4 should be

 

[spideyboy_1111]

TASM was a dark, gritty reboot where only during the scene in the car, did I feel like Andrew Garfield was Spider-Man.

TASM2 didn't fail because it lightened the tone, it failed because Green Goblin felt more like the main character, there were too many subplots, some of the acting by minor characters was cringeworthy and Jamie Foxx was cast as Electro and then did nothing interesting in the role. Then the film ends on a low note with Gwen's death.

It wasn't because TASM2 tried to be a more fun film than its predecessor, it was because it wasn't a good film.

Ive said about a billion times now... spidey is a character that can go dark. He's a vigilante street level hero.. but that being said, both of those films juggled darkness and humor.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

About Batman Returns. Most agree that it was a good movie, just not a good Batman film.

Ironically, its my favorite batman film, and wish more were like it. *shrugs*

 

[Dasher10]

Did you not read my post? You can start light and go dark. You cant do the opposite... not without people comparing it to batman forever/robin

Evil Dead 2, Mad Max: The Road Warrior. Both lighter than the original. Both better films.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

... im specifically talking about the last 3 soctors... specifically. That is the tone of how the f4 should be

But I'm saying, the Doctor Reboot changed the character(i.e. you can present something dark without being dark). Killed the Time Lords. Making him a brooding loner. Older fans complained that the Doctor wasn't a young, romantic lead character with the companion. Something that appealed to the NuWho fans.

If I want the 616 adapted, Marvel is 100% cause they are invested in keeping that version verbatim in stasis. But if I want to see a good adaptation of the Fantaststic Four property, I wouldn't ask Marvel cause they aren't invested in doing something outside the box with their characters. Why else are they adapting Civil War, Age of Ultron, TWS, or Infinity Wars? They want the stuff they already did to be regurgitated back out on cinemas.

They aren't interested in making not pre-tested ala the Dark Knight or Burton's Batman(I don't mean tone).