Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - - - - - Part 23

[Marvolo]

I didn't say she should be "coddled". And I wouldn't compare her experiences like begging in the street and washing corpses to modern military training either.[

But you asked for a motive for betrayal and turning the tables and I provided it. She's a vindictive adolescent with a scorecard and I don't think she appreciates the welts she's gotten from the other girl.

Begging in the street, getting whacked in the face with a staff, and washing corpses is a lot easier than special forces training in modern militaries. Forced marches carrying a hundred pounds or more, running miles every day, extreme sleep deprivation, food deprivation, days without basic hygiene maintenance, training for torture resistance, rigorous cardio training, rigorous combat training, live fire training, strenuous mental reconditioning etc.

You say you hope she kills them because of what they did to her and that you conaider it abuse, but what they did to her pales in comparison to what special forces soldiers go through in training. Would you say that special forces trainers should be killed too? I doubt it so why do you think the assassins should be killed for the milder training they put Arya through?

If you want to be a special forces soldier or in this case join the best order of assassins in the world, or be a part of any elite combat unit you have to be put through hell first.

And keep in mind that no one forced Arya to do this. She chose to go to the assassins and be trained. She chose to stay.

If her reasoning for wanting to kill the assassins is, "They hit me and made me beg and wash a corpse." well thats a pretty weak reason.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I wonder if the Faceless Men ever bang the dead bodies. Imagine stuff like that goes on all the time. Dead body's like a piece of trash, they probably bang 'em, eat 'em, grind 'em up into little pieces and throw it in the river.

But the way they've been handeling Arya is pretty good, very CLEAN, no rapes at all. She might make it out of the strange foreigner death cult without being too warped.

 

[Marvolo]

I wonder if the Faceless Men ever bang the dead bodies. Imagine stuff like that goes on all the time. Dead body's like a piece of trash, they probably bang 'em, eat 'em, grind 'em up into little pieces and throw it in the river.

But the way they've been handeling Arya is pretty good, very CLEAN, no rapes at all. She might make it out of the strange foreigner death cult without being too warped.

I hear that Bravosi Peasant Stew is pretty good. Can you guess what the main ingredient is?

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Begging in the street, getting whacked in the face with a staff, and washing corpses is a lot easier than special forces training in modern militaries. Forced marches carrying a hundred pounds or more, running miles every day, extreme sleep deprivation, food deprivation, days without basic hygiene maintenance, training for torture resistance, rigorous cardio training, rigorous combat training, live fire training, strenuous mental reconditioning etc.

You say you hope she kills them because of what they did to her and that what they did to her wasnt training, but what they did to her pales in comparison to what specail forces soldiers go through in training. Would you say that special forces trainers should be killed too? I doubt it so why do you think the Assassins should be killed for the milder training they put Arya through?

If you want to be a special forces soldier or in this case join the best order of assassins in the world, or be a part of any elite combat unit you have to be put through hell first.

And keep in mind that no one forced Arya to do this. She chose to go to the Assassins and be trained. She chose to stay.

If her reasoning for wanting to kill the assassins is, "They hit me and made me beg and wash a corpse." well thats a pretty weak reason.

This is a pretty funny conversation. I'm familiar with some of that training because my cousin went through it, and I'm not debating whether her training is harder or worse than special forces training -that's irrelevant. We're talking about a fantasy, mystical assassin's guild, not special forces here on Earth, and I find the comparison utterly absurd. She's not training to be an elite soldier there. And she's a young girl, not a man who's been through all kinds of prior physical training with weights, nor did she know what the program entailed like those guys do. And some of those experiences are screwed up and stand as a good enough motive for a little bit of revenge on the way out. Jaqen faking his death, the blindness, forced to beg on the streets is psychological abuse -not combat training for resisting "enemy interrogation" either. lol

We'll have to wait and see what happens. If she kills one or more of them on the way out then I will have been right.

 

[Reek]

This is a pretty funny conversation. I'm familiar with some of that training because my cousin went through it, and I'm not debating whether her training is harder or worse than special forces training -that's irrelevant. We're talking about a fantasy, mystical assassin's guild, not special forces here on Earth, and I find the comparison utterly absurd. She's not training to be an elite soldier there. And she's a young girl, not a man who's been through all kinds of prior physical training with weights, nor did she know what the program entailed like those guys do. And some of those experiences are screwed up and stand as a good enough motive for a little bit of revenge on the way out. Jaqen faking his death, the blindness, forced to beg on the streets is psychological abuse -not combat training for resisting "enemy interrogation" either. lol

We'll have to wait and see what happens. If she kills one or more of them on the way out then I will have been right.

thank you. lol

 

[Marvolo]

This is a pretty funny conversation. I'm familiar with some of that training because my cousin went through it, and I'm not debating whether her training is harder or worse than special forces training -that's irrelevant. We're talking about a fantasy, mystical assassin's guild, not special forces here on Earth, and I find the comparison utterly absurd. She's not training to be an elite soldier there. And she's a young girl, not a man who's been through all kinds of prior physical training with weights, nor did she know what the program entailed like those guys do. And some of those experiences are screwed up and stand as a good enough motive for a little bit of revenge on the way out. Jaqen faking his death, the blindness, forced to beg on the streets is psychological abuse -not combat training for resisting "enemy interrogation" either. lol

We'll have to wait and see what happens. If she kills one or more of them on the way out then I will have been right.

She is training to be an assassin with a group of assassins that are probably the best in GRRM's world. So no the comparison isnt "utterly absurd". I used special forces because it is another group of human beings that do some thing that requires intensive training, discipline, and reconditioning. If we had an actual guild of assissins in the real world I would have used them. Do you think you can become an assassin like that or a special forces like we have or any elite soldier, combatant, survivalist, killer or whathaveyou without intensive reconditioning and training?

Everything they have done to her was a learning experience. They took her eyesight as punishment but it was also to teach her to rely less on her eyes and to learn to use her other senses better. It also teaches her how to work in the dark. They had her smelling and mixing poisons or other decoctions by smell in the last episode. They put her on the street to toughen her up and to make her rely on her self. They were having her train in combat without her sight so that she could learn to fight without her eyes and to toughen her up. She washes corpses because one it gives her an appreciation for the dead and as an assassin she will be dealing with a lot of dead bodies. Also a good way to learn about the human bpdy is by studying corpses. Thats where modern anatomy got its start in the real world. And since arya arrived one of Jaquens continual lessons is that she has to give up herself and attachments to people and anyone thing. Her attachment to Jaquen is something he wants her to give up. Why do you think he made her think he was dead? He is trying to deive this point home that she can not be emotionally attached to him or anything else. When she saw him dead and freaked out that was just one more time that she had failed one of the most basic concepts of the Faceless Men.

This stuff isnt being done for sadistic reasons. Its being done to strengthen her senses and to heighten her skills and knowledge and discipline.

As for her being "a little girl", she isnt living in 21st century america and she isnt joining a weekend gymnastics team. She is in Essos joing a group of assassins. Her training is going to involve some unpleasant things regardless of her age. She is a teen by the way, and in societies like the ones she occupies teens aren'taren't treated like they are in 21st century america. They have to grow up and deal with **** a lot quicker than we had to in 21st century america. Christ, we used to send 16 year olds into battle. And in medieval times squires (some teens and younger) were exposed to and experienced things worse than washing a corpse. Thats the sort of world Arya lives in. And Arya in the show is at least 16. Thats practically adult age in westeros and essos. If Arya is supposed to be Maisie's age then she is 19.

And lets not forget that this is the same "little girl" that brutally murdered a man last season and the same "little girl" that killed people in earlier seasons, and you're taking issue with her washing a corpse or being whacked with a staff?

 

[Reek]

i just see it more as a ninja/fantasy/batman type training... not like special forces... I mean i get the comparison but its just so different in terms of the world etc... You wouldn't compare the white walkers to canadians... well... nevermind

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

For the record, I'm not particularly attached to the idea that Arya needs to exact revenge against the Faceless Men for her experiences there (some of which may not have been training -nobody really knows what is and isn't their training), I'm just defending the possibility of that motive in a vengeful character.

She may have to kill her way out of there simply because the philosophical and religious motivations of that cult are at complete odds with her personal agenda that brought her there in the first place. She is not going to forget her father, the day he died, her identity and heritage, nor her death list - a list mind you that's had names added to it for relatively minor offenses all things considered.

 

[Marvolo]

i just see it more as a ninja/fantasy/batman type training... not like special forces... I mean i get the comparison but its just so different in terms of the world etc... You wouldn't compare the white walkers to canadians... well... nevermind

Even if you think of it like ninjas its no different. The training would be different in ways but no less intense. No instructor, trainer, sensei etc is going to half ass train a ninja, assassin, soldier, killer etc. They are going to test the trainee in every way and teach them what they need to know. The trainee is going to get bruises, they are going to learn lessons in some unpleasant ways, and will be pushed to what they thought was their breaking point.

You dont become what Arya is becoming, or what Batman is, or what a ninja is supposed to be without some bruises, busted lips, aches, pains, and physical and mental exhaustion.

It seems clear to me that Jaquen is doing exactly that.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

She is training to be an assassin with a group of assassins that are probably the best in GRRM's world. So no the comparison isnt "utterly absurd". I used special forces because it is another group of human beings that do some thing that requires intensive training, discipline, and reconditioning. If we had an actual guild of assissins in the real world I would have used them. Do you think you can become an assassin like that or a special forces like we have or any elite soldier, combatant, survivalist, killer or whathaveyou without intensive reconditioning and training?

Everything they have done to her was a learning experience. They took her eyesight as punishment but it was also to teach her to rely less on her eyes and to learn to use her other senses better. It also teaches her how to work in the dark. They had her smelling and mixing poisons or other decoctions by smell in the last episode. They put her on the street to toughen her up and to make her rely on her self. They were having her train in combat without her sight so that she could learn to fight without her eyes and to toughen her up. She washes corpses because one it gives her an appreciation for the dead and as an assassin she will be dealing with a lot of dead bodies. Also a good way to learn about the human bpdy is by studying corpses. Thats where modern anatomy got its start in the real world. And since arya arrived one of Jaquens continual lessons is that she has to give up herself and attachments to people and anyone thing. Her attachment to Jaquen is something he wants her to give up. Why do you think he made her think he was dead? He is trying to deive this point home that she can not be emotionally attached to him or anything else. When she saw him dead and freaked out that was just one more time that she had failed one of the most basic concepts of the Faceless Men.

This stuff isnt being done for sadistic reasons. Its being done to strengthen her senses and to heighten her skills and knowledge and discipline.

As for her being "a little girl", she isnt living in 21st century america and she isnt joining a weekend gymnastics team. She is in Essos joing a group of assassins. Her training is going to involve some unpleasant things regardless of her age. She is a teen by the way, and in societies like the ones she occupies teens aren'taren't treated like they are in 21st century america. They have to grow up and deal with **** a lot quicker than we had to in 21st century america. Christ, we used to send 16 year olds into battle. And in medieval times squires (some teens and younger) were exposed to and experienced things worse than washing a corpse. Thats the sort of world Arya lives in. And Arya in the show is at least 16. Thats practically adult age in westeros and essos. If Arya is supposed to be Maisie's age then she is 19.

And lets not forget that this is the same "little girl" that brutally murdered a man last season and the same "little girl" that killed people in earlier seasons, and you're taking issue with her washing a corpse or being whacked with a staff?

You write as though YOU would endure all her surprise experiences there just fine and be cool about it. I doubt it!

She may have experience killing now but she is still a young girl physically and psychologically, not just like a male soldier going through special forces training here -that was the point of that distinction. You took it on a tangent just to argue, and in such a condescending manner too. Yes, in the middle ages and perhaps in GRRM's analog here women start early as soon as they can breed -that says absolutely nothing about maturity or the ability to deal with adversity of every different kind and without bitterness, qualities that require years and different experiences than hanging out with the damned Hound. She's tough but she's the kind to hold bitter grudges along the way.

Training doesn't simply equal training from one organization in this world (with a very different and much more comprehensive job description -is Arya going to need to dive 50 ft to attach explosives to a destroyer? lol) to something else completely different in another world entirely and a rather mysterious organization at that. You don't know what the Faceless Men's training program fully entails nor whether we've seen it all, nor whether some of her experiences are even training. You're just assuming that all of it is without really knowing. IMO washing corpses has more to do with their religion than anything else. I listed that amongst other items from her point of view --she's complained about these things one after another and they have a cumulative effect that amounts to her being fed up with these guys. She was punished for waxing Trant -there's another one. She almost has enough to go postal soon.

But as I've said already, we'll just have to wait and see how they decide to spin her out of that mess.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Even if you think of it like ninjas its no different. The training would be different in ways but no less intense. No instructor, trainer, sensei etc is going to half ass train a ninja, assassin, soldier, killer etc. They are going to test the trainee in every way and teach them what they need to know. The trainee is going to get bruises, they are going to learn lessons in some unpleasant ways, and will be pushed to what they thought was their breaking point.

You dont become what Arya is becoming, or what Batman is, or what a ninja is supposed to be without some bruises, busted lips, aches, pains, and physical and mental exhaustion.

It seems clear to me that Jaquen is doing exactly that.

So you're an expert on Special Forces, Ninja and Faceless Men training?

Lucky us!

 

[Drz]

Did you not watch the last episode? She is progressing.

The Faceless Men know that Arya is still Arya, she isn't a noone at all.

While we have some users here thinking that Arya is fooling them for personal gain, I think the Faceless Men are using her and just letting her get away with it.

Like, tell me how has she progressed? Yeah she got one lucky shot after countless beat downs, but did she truly develope?

 

[Reek]

She has learned how to change faces. She has learned how to operate without her eyes. She has learned to fight without her eyes, it wasn't one lucky shot, she defended herself better and better each scene of the montage... As Marvolo asked, did you not watch the last episode?

That's progress IMO... She's only been there for season 5 and what we've seen from 6.

 

[Drz]

Sure in that sense, she has been taught to harness her telepathy but when I talk about progress as a Faceless Man, that's where she hasn't achieved anything and the Faceless Men know this.

Waif has now even asked her, does she have a kill list and coincidently her kill list is very political and affects Westeros.

So the Faceless Men are most definitely using her, even though she hasn't become a Faceless Man herself at all. She is Arya Stark.

 

[Reek]

As long as Needle is hidden, she is Arya Stark.

Sure in that sense, she has been taught to harness her telepathy but when I talk about progress as a Faceless Man, that's where she hasn't achieved anything and the Faceless Men know this.

Waif has now even asked her, does she have a kill list and coincidently her kill list is very political and affects Westeros.

So the Faceless Men are most definitely using her, even though she hasn't become a Faceless Man herself at all. She is Arya Stark.

I said she was Arya from the beginning. She's using them, they're using her. Whooptie doo... you asked how she has made progress... I explained it... then you said 'sure in that sense'... what other sense is there? 'Telepathy'? since that's been a big part of her story for 0 seconds so far.

So her being able to change her face... um... the signature move of the faceless men... is not progress as a faceless man? Her blind training (and succeeding) was simply her 'telepathy'? Though it's a common form of their training?

 

[Drz]

then you said 'sure in that sense'

Well I mean, it's like giving her pity progress. That montage was terrible, but I guess you can say she progressed hahah.

... what other sense is there? 'Telepathy'? since that's been a big part of her story for 0 seconds so far.

Arya being a telepath is the only reason she is even with the Faceless Men. -____- You think she matters to the Faceless Men otherwise? No, the only and only reason she even got accepted to the organisation was because of her telepathy.

In the books, Arya received her sight back was due to her ability to use her varging skills better. It made sense, but in the tv show... Yeah, why did she get her sight back? Oh yeah, Karate Kid montage.

So her being able to change her face... um... the signature move of the faceless men.

Though it's a common form of their training?

Is it? Is it truly a common signature move through telepathy? Not at all.

Only Jaqen and Arya have this telepathic skill. The tv show hasn't show how Waif can do it nor has it introduced the Stern, Fat or Handsome, Kindly man yet.

In the books, which the tv show should be adapting from properly. Has shownt hat the Faceless Men aren't all telepaths, some use glamors and crappy nose disguises.

This is why Arya is important, she is an actual warg.

 

[dude stannis]

There is elements of magic within the Faceless Men society, but they're mostly a well connected spy network rather than telepathic.

 

[Reek]

Well I mean, it's like giving her pity progress. That montage was terrible, but I guess you can say she progressed hahah.

Just because the montage was terrible doesn't mean there wasn't progression. How is learning to change your face and learning to fight and live blind not progress? Or are you just being typical Drz and trying to argue everything?

Arya being a telepath is the only reason she is even with the Faceless Men. -____- You think she matters to the Faceless Men otherwise? No, the only and only reason she even got accepted to the organisation was because of her telepathy.

No. wherever this telepathy crap is coming from, has **** all to do with Arya coincidentally finding Jaqen imprisoned, then seeing him again in Harrenhaal, then HER decision later to go to Braavos. That wasn't because of 'telepathy'. I don't even know where you are trying to go with this, it's like you make **** up as you go.

In the books, Arya received her sight back was due to her ability to use her varging skills better. It made sense, but in the tv show... Yeah, why did she get her sight back? Oh yeah, Karate Kid montage.

Once again... the montage may have sucked, but doesn't mean she hasn't shown progress... and once again, with most of your posts, What point are you trying to make other than the montage sucked? Smells kind of trollish.

Is it? Is it truly a common signature move through telepathy? Not at all.

No, because i said it was a signature move of the faceless men.. I'm not referring to this telepathy nonsense, where you once again 'read what you want to read and go from there'.

Only Jaqen and Arya have this telepathic skill. The tv show hasn't show how Waif can do it nor has it introduced the Stern, Fat or Handsome, Kindly man yet.

In the books, which the tv show should be adapting from properly. Has shownt hat the Faceless Men aren't all telepaths, some use glamors and crappy nose disguises.

This is why Arya is important, she is an actual warg.

Um it hasn't shown how ANYONE does it.. they simply have new faces. It doesn't really need to show anything, but keep going with the telepath nonsense.

I don't even know why you say half the things you say when it's in regards to Arya progressing or not lol... again it's like you read what you want and make things up from there.

 

[Victarion]

Where did yall get telepathy from? She's not a Breaker.

 

[Reek]

Don't say "y'all"...

 

[Victarion]

But why not y'all?

 

[Reek]

I have no part in this telepathy insanity.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

There is elements of magic within the Faceless Men society, but they're mostly a well connected spy network rather than telepathic.

^ This. She was obviously observed.

As for her own "telepathy", warging is more like possession. There's been nothing to indicate that she's reading and transmitting thoughts to other people.

 

[Drz]

No. wherever this telepathy crap is coming from, has **** all to do with Arya coincidentally finding Jaqen imprisoned, then seeing him again in Harrenhaal, then HER decision later to go to Braavos. That wasn't because of 'telepathy'. I don't even know where you are trying to go with this, it's like you make **** up as you go.

Okay, if Arya being a warg is NOT a reason the Faceless Men wanted her... Can you tell me why? Why would they want an emotional unstable woman who can't even become a noone?

It's because of her telepathic abilities as a Warg! Sheesh, way to miss the obvious.

 

[Hop David]

Okay, if Arya being a warg is NOT a reason the Faceless Men wanted her... Can you tell me why? Why would they want an emotional unstable woman who can't even become a noone?

It's because of her telepathic abilities as a Warg! Sheesh, way to miss the obvious.

In the book all the Stark siblings were wargs. They all had a connection with their dire wolves. Some were more aware of it than others.

In the book, Arya became aware that she was a warg after she was blind. She could see through the eyes of a cat. Her trainers seemed surprised that she knew some stuff that she learned through the cat's eyes. So I don't think her trainers knew she was a warg.

Arya is very smart, courageous and capable of being ruthless. Those are good reasons the faceless men would recruit her.

In the show I don't see any indication Arya is a warg.

How much is the TV show based on the book? I don't know. I'm coming to regard the show as fan faction more and more removed from G.R.R. Martin.