Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

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I disagree that the changes of The Walking Dead have been bad. Shane's arc and death were much better on the show. The Darryl character is a welcome edition. And the changes to Rick are all for the better. Kirkman's plot is showing Rick descend into madness to reflect the world that he lives in. The show's writers smartly decided to keep his humanity in tact and make him relatable. They've made all characters more likable (which gives the audience connections....something GOT is sorely lacking).

Also if Kirkman is being honest, he has a very clear path mapped out for TWD. It is Rick's story and he at least claims to know where it goes and how it ends.
 
mr. peasant said:
At any one point, there's only one official canon for a given comic franchise.
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Which still changes about every 5 years or more. Then there's absolute stupid **** they throw in the comics to get buzz like having Alfred possibly be Bruce's father.

Even going by your restrictions, all successful, multi-season TV adaptations (as opposed to a one-off miniseries that doesn't have to worry about future planning such as whether an actor will return/be available several years down the line) of books (i.e. True Blood, Vampire Diaries, Gossip Girl, Sherlock (if you're willing to consider it successful this early in its run)) depart significantly from the source material plot-wise; creating their own twists and developments).
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Too many parenthesis. Anyway, just because they do it doesn't mean Game of Thrones has to or should.

The series is one big story. Each book is not a self-contained plot. It's building to a major event. We still don't know what since 2 more books are supposed to come out.
 
Matt said:
You've just lost all credibility, my friend. :oldrazz:

Little similar character moments can be pointed to on The Walking Dead. Besides, someone who has read The Walking Dead (like myself) can feel out the general plot of where the show is going and argue that you are wrong because everything that happened in season 2 sets up for **** in season 3 and later seasons. But does that really change the fact that season 2 bored you or make it's terrible pace better in your eyes?

I think as a fan of the books you are willing to give it a pass on the exact things that you criticize The Walking Dead for.
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I find it hard to believe that GOT is "boring," but even so I don't think "character moments" are comparable. The only characters with arcs in S2 of TWD were Shane going crazy and Rick going slightly less crazy. Everyone else just kind of stood around *****ing at each other. I really don't think that's comparable to Theon not only betraying his surrogate brother, but invading Winterfell, betraying the people who raised him and killing children. And that's just one plot line. Look at how much Arya has been through, how far Tyrion has climbed, how S2 began with a "status quo" (War of the Five Kings) not there in Season 1 and by Episode 5 had blown that status quo to smithereens and redefined the conflict on the show again.

I just think more happens on GOT than any other show on television, save the expertly paced and highly-addictive Homeland. I mean you can say that you like both shows equally, but at the end of the day, the story of GOT is always in flux while other than a slight shift in the first two episodes of S1 and last two episodes of S2, TWD has been the same situation every week.
 
Matt said:
I am of the opinion that it is not. In fact, I'd argue it has every one of the same problems that The Walking Dead has (strong first coupe of episodes, strong final two episodes, complete snore-fest in between filled with a bunch of characters I don't particularly like or care about). I'd argue that you are biased as a fan of the books and based on your critique of The Walking Dead you'd say the same thing as me if you weren't a fan of the books as they are essentially the same show plagued by the same pacing problems and general lack of likability among the cast.



You're right, we can't say how they should be adapted. We can critique what they are being adapted into however and those critiques are just as valid as anything that anyone who has read the books says.
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You know how with television shows that are original creations and not adapted there will be episodes and scenes your not sure why they are included but the writers keep saying trust us we have an ending and that material is necessary to get there. The viewers are like ok and at the end you understand. Until then everypne just has to go along for the ride because the viewers dont know what the end is. Well its like that here but not just the writers know where this is going; the readers also know. We keep telling you and others to trust us and to trust the writers that this stuff is important and you will see the payoff. You may not want to read the books but you need to accept that the readers have a better handle on all this and understand what the writers are doing better than the non readers. I respect your complaints and critiques but as a reader I have a better idea of this material and what is necessary so when I and other readers critique your critiques try to understand us and the writers. All I'm saying is if you've got the patience and can trust we the readers when we tell you that things are the way they need to be and trust the writers then you are in for a killer show.

That's all I'm saying. Hope I don't come across pretentious or *****y.:)
 
Matt said:
I disagree that the changes of The Walking Dead have been bad. Shane's arc and death were much better on the show. The Darryl character is a welcome edition. And the changes to Rick are all for the better. Kirkman's plot is showing Rick descend into madness to reflect the world that he lives in. The show's writers smartly decided to keep his humanity in tact and make him relatable. They've made all characters more likable (which gives the audience connections....something GOT is sorely lacking).

Also if Kirkman is being honest, he has a very clear path mapped out for TWD. It is Rick's story and he at least claims to know where it goes and how it ends.
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I forgot about Darryl, you're right, he is a very welcome change. But I disagree on everything else.

And while Kirkman may have an end game in mind for Rick, there's no denying TWD is a pulp serial at heart. The novels in GoT have a beginning-middle-end structure to each, and each are clearly serving one great tapestry of a story with a very specific destination, ala the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter series.
 
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There is a reason GRRM said for years that A Song of Ice and Fire could not be adapted. Its way too big for a movie without absolutely gutting it. I'm not even sure its possible it would come out good at all. And its not really designed to be cut up into satisfactory hour long blocks. They are doing the best adaption they can without entirely changing the story or making it Game of Thrones in name only. If someone wants an adaption that is true to the books this really is about the best you could hope for.
 
See, this is why we can't have nice things. :waa:
 
Spidey-Bat said:
Too many parenthesis. Anyway, just because they do it doesn't mean Game of Thrones has to or should.
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You added the requirement that it had to be books. My only requirements were that the adaptation in question had to be popular with people and have lasted several years.

There is a rationale why others haven't done it, and it's not because it never occurred to them. This rationale has been explained and such issues have already occurred in the show. Thus far, I have not seen any counter-arguments against these very real logistical issues and how they can be managed when they inevitably arise again further down the road.
 
Marvolo said:
I dont care if i get *****ed at for this but unless someone has read the books they dont have the slightest clue how these books should be adapted.
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I totally agree with you man. Without knowing the material itself you cannot say how it should or should not be adapted. You may not like the show itself for whatever reason ... but if you've not read the original you just don't know.

I love seeing the posts about how to adapt shows and how they could use the world and do their own thing. Makes me want to say "You know nothing Jon Snow."

No worries man. It's easy to criticize from a standpoint of ignorance. What do you cut really? What do you streamline and eliminate? It's one of the most interconnected stories I've ever read.
 
DACrowe said:
I find it hard to believe that GOT is "boring," but even so I don't think "character moments" are comparable. The only characters with arcs in S2 of TWD were Shane going crazy and Rick going slightly less crazy. Everyone else just kind of stood around *****ing at each other. I really don't think that's comparable to Theon not only betraying his surrogate brother, but invading Winterfell, betraying the people who raised him and killing children. And that's just one plot line. Look at how much Arya has been through, how far Tyrion has climbed, how S2 began with a "status quo" (War of the Five Kings) not there in Season 1 and by Episode 5 had blown that status quo to smithereens and redefined the conflict on the show again.

I just think more happens on GOT than any other show on television, save the expertly paced and highly-addictive Homeland. I mean you can say that you like both shows equally, but at the end of the day, the story of GOT is always in flux while other than a slight shift in the first two episodes of S1 and last two episodes of S2, TWD has been the same situation every week.
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One day we're going to agree on something Crowe, I promise. ;)

As to your point, your argument seems to be "More is better." I disagree. GOT is far too crowded for it's own good with uninteresting and/or unlikable characters that slow things down. I'd rather see two characters developed very well (Shane and Rick) than 10 characters, all of whom I hate developed to the point of nausea.

Marvolo said:
You know how with television shows that are original creations and not adapted there will be episodes and scenes your not sure why they are included but the writers keep saying trust us we have an ending and that material is necessary to get there. The viewers are like ok and at the end you understand. Until then everypne just has to go along for the ride because the viewers dont know what the end is. Well its like that here but not just the writers know where this is going; the readers also know. We keep telling you and others to trust us and to trust the writers that this stuff is important and you will see the payoff. You may not want to read the books but you need to accept that the readers have a better handle on all this and understand what the writers are doing better than the non readers. I respect your complaints and critiques but as a reader I have a better idea of this material and what is necessary so when I and other readers critique your critiques try to understand us and the writers. All I'm saying is if you've got the patience and can trust we the readers when we tell you that things are the way they need to be and trust the writers then you are in for a killer show.

That's all I'm saying. Hope I don't come across pretentious or *****y.:)
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But your logic is flawed. Just because we don't know the end doesn't mean that the journey there cannot be criticized. Season 6 of 24 for example had a tremendous ending. The rest of the episodes were terrible. The good ending doesn't excuse the bad journey there. The Mentalist recently backed down from a shocking plot twist that ended season 3. Just because I do not know where the writers are heading, doesn't mean that I cannot criticize the cowardice of backing down and restoring the status quo.

flickchick85 said:
I forgot about Darryl, you're right, he is a very welcome change. But I disagree on everything else.
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You'd rather see borderline crazy Rick? :funny:

And while Kirkman may have an end game in mind for Rick, there's no denying TWD is a pulp serial at heart. The novels in GoT have a beginning-middle-end structure to each, and each are clearly serving one great tapestry of a story with a very specific destination, ala the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter series.
Click to expand...

And Peter Jackson wisely cut Tom Bombadill and all of the unnecessary exposition on the back story of Middle Earth. It is the adapter's job to decide what is absolutely essential and what is not. Cue a fan of the book saying, "Everything is essential!" To that I say that some things are more essential than others. It is the adapters job to adapt. Not translate.
 
This might have already been mentioned, but it appears we should be getting casting info fairly soon:

The TV show. I finished and delivered my script for season three of GAME OF THRONES. It's episode 307, with the working title "Autumn Storms." David and Dan seem to like it. Casting is in full swing for the new season, so I'm watching auditions every night. Froggy may be turning up soon, but don't hold your breath. I'm too busy to devote much time to whipping up obscure clues.
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I'll be the first to say that I haven't read the books as of yet :csad: I started AGoT, but as I'm busy with my own writing I just don't have the time to sit down and read like I used to. But the show is fantastic thus far, and if they've deviated from the source material at all it's been enormously beneficial to viewers like me who were/are unfamiliar with the books.
 
Matt said:
And Peter Jackson wisely cut Tom Bombadill and all of the unnecessary exposition on the back story of Middle Earth. It is the adapter's job to decide what is absolutely essential and what is not. Cue a fan of the book saying, "Everything is essential!" To that I say that some things are more essential than others. It is the adapters job to adapt. Not translate.
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Yes I know, you've said as much. To which I again respond, that is exactly what they are doing. They've cut out and condensed a TON from the books already. The only reason Peter Jackson cut out more was because he was adapting each book into a 3-hour movie, not a 13-hour season. But the GoT writers are doing the exact same kind of adapting he did, just in longer form. They've cut out major characters, combined events and cut out whole stretches all-together.
 
Matt said:
One day we're going to agree on something Crowe, I promise. ;)

As to your point, your argument seems to be "More is better." I disagree. GOT is far too crowded for it's own good with uninteresting and/or unlikable characters that slow things down. I'd rather see two characters developed very well (Shane and Rick) than 10 characters, all of whom I hate developed to the point of nausea.



But your logic is flawed. Just because we don't know the end doesn't mean that the journey there cannot be criticized. Season 6 of 24 for example had a tremendous ending. The rest of the episodes were terrible. The good ending doesn't excuse the bad journey there. The Mentalist recently backed down from a shocking plot twist that ended season 3. Just because I do not know where the writers are heading, doesn't mean that I cannot criticize the cowardice of backing down and restoring the status quo.



You'd rather see borderline crazy Rick? :funny:



And Peter Jackson wisely cut Tom Bombadill and all of the unnecessary exposition on the back story of Middle Earth. It is the adapter's job to decide what is absolutely essential and what is not. Cue a fan of the book saying, "Everything is essential!" To that I say that some things are more essential than others. It is the adapters job to adapt. Not translate.
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You can critique all you want but every one of the problems you've expressed would be completely moot if you understood why these scenes you don't like are important. Most viewers just go along with and enjoy the episodes as small pieces of a larger story. It seems you simply don't have the patience this show requires. That's not an insult but an observation. You keep judging these episodes as if they are self contained stories that should have a beginning middle and end with a steady rise to action and climax. Like most episodes of television shows. This shows episodes are not structured like that. They are hour long snapshots of a much larger tapestry. This isn't like 99% of what is on TV. Its a 90 hour movie you have to watch one hour at a time once a week. Is that the best way to structure a television show? Probably not. But it is the best way to serve this story. Its just the nature of the beast and you're going to have to come to terms with that. Some episodes will seem slower or not as thrilling or enthralling as others. But when you watch them back to back you can see how well they work. Some shows are meant to be watched in big chuncks and this show works best when you can watch all 10 episodes of each season in as few settings as possible.
 
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mr. peasant said:
You added the requirement that it had to be books. My only requirements were that the adaptation in question had to be popular with people and have lasted several years.

There is a rationale why others haven't done it, and it's not because it never occurred to them. This rationale has been explained and such issues have already occurred in the show. Thus far, I have not seen any counter-arguments against these very real logistical issues and how they can be managed when they inevitably arise again further down the road.
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So, you're worried they may have to change things down the road (cough-AFFC-cough), thus they should just ditch the books now? It really doesn't make sense. Obviously, the show as it is now--basing its story in large scope on the books--is doing something right considering it has been nominated for Best Series by the Emmys and Globes, will be again for this year, and has won Best Supporting Actor twice. Not to mention it is a ratings hit and HBO's second biggest show after True Blood and selling like hotcakes on DVD. So, as a more straightforward adaptation, it's had critical and commercial success thus far.
 
Matt said:
One day we're going to agree on something Crowe, I promise. ;)

As to your point, your argument seems to be "More is better." I disagree. GOT is far too crowded for it's own good with uninteresting and/or unlikable characters that slow things down. I'd rather see two characters developed very well (Shane and Rick) than 10 characters, all of whom I hate developed to the point of nausea.
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What you mean like Laurie? Rick's son? Andrea? Carol? Dale? T-Dawg? Anyone who lived on that farm not named Hershel or who was banging Glenn? :oldrazz: GOT develops its characters more and they're spread across two continents. What's TWD's "we're on a farm's" excuse?

I personally think GOT is full of great characters (Tyrion, Arya, Ygritte, Tywin, Catelyn, Sansa, Jaime, Littlefinger, Theon, Joffrey etc.). If you find them boring, I just can't help you because I do not understand.
 
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Tyrion would ***** slap Rick and take his crew as his own. He would ship off Carl and belittle Laurie for being an idiot. Send Shane to the wall as he needs some celibacy and hangout with Hershell in a tavern.
 
Yeah, this is really cool and all, comparing the walking dead to game of thrones, but Edmure Tully is a significant addition that more or less sets up the defining moment of the series. Oh yes.
 
Best show on planet Earth!!!

(Cersei: "Aren’t you always so clever with your schemes and your plots!" Tyrion: "Schemes and plots are the same thing.")
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haha i love it!
 
Spidey-Bat said:
Sorry to interrupt the bickering but we have confirmation that Edmure Tully will be in next season!

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/leaked-audition-tape-confirms-edmure-tully-will-be-cast/

Now Matt will have another character to complain about :hehe:
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Excellent news about Edmure!! He needed to be included from that point on. Now introduce the Blackfish as well please!! I have faith that he wil. And I do wonder whether Hoster Tully will make an appearance, even if it's only for an episode or two.
 
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