Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 2

[chamber-music]

LOL, Theon is such a dick.

But his sister... is she a little f**ed in the head or something? She KNEW he was her brother and she still let him feel her up.

She made him pay the iron price for the ride up

 

[DACrowe]

"Smile with your mouth closed."

What'd you think of episode 2? Did the pace improve for you?

Also, if we're adding quotes:

"I'm not questioning you're honor. I'm denying its existence."

and

"It's all fallen on me."

"....As Jaime has repeatedly, according to Stannia Baratheon."

and

"That was unlady like."

This episode had a lot of great lines.

 

[Kane52630]

"You've perfected the art of tearing up papers."

 

[Spidey-Bat]

When Gendry had that dialogue with Arya when she told him she's Arya Stark, I imagined he was more embarrassed about what he had said, but I liked that they made it that he was more teasing her.

And Yoren's scene was awesome.

Yeah, I always imagined Dorne as clearly a desert inhabited by Spaniard-types. The Red Viper certainly gave off that vibe for me.

I always imagined them as Arab looking.

My God,that ****e Theon was givin the business to on that boat was prob the most hideous person on the show so far.

For her sake, I hope she had prosthetic teeth in.

I thought Stannis had a wife. I thought that was who they were referring to when they were discussing the woman who only bore him daughters

In the book, he has one daughter but I got the impression that the show has written her out.

Yes, Stanni's daughter is ******ed and has a huge wine stain birthmark on her face ... or she does in the books. Still haven't seen these first 2, family6 still in town.

Shireen isn't ******ed. Her left cheek and neck are grey from the greyscale she had as an infant which nearly killed her.

 

[Matt]

What'd you think of episode 2? Did the pace improve for you?

Also, if we're adding quotes:

"I'm not questioning you're honor. I'm denying its existence."

and

"It's all fallen on me."

"....As Jaime has repeatedly, according to Stannia Baratheon."

and

"That was unlady like."

This episode had a lot of great lines.

To be honest, not really. I can think of many ways in which the first two episodes can be combined (cutting out certain redundant or unnecessary scenes). I'm not going to elaborate all that much as I don't want to debate this point again as I understand that fans of the book see where this is going and therefore may have more patience where as I argue that the two mediums are entirely different and it is unfair to expect viewers to wait while the story is being told in a form that does not fit the medium. But I digress....I feel like we are being told a lot of information that while perhaps necessary, can be shown in a different way, either through incorporation of later scenes (to use my example last week, Cate just being at Renly's and in one line of dialogue saying that Robb sent her rather than showing five minutes of him sending her) or through the more visual medium (which requires less dialogue).

I feel that the writers are trying too hard to stay faithful to the material and in doing so are failing to translate the story in a way fitting to its new medium (television).

I understand that I am in a minority here, but I stand by it.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

For her sake, I hope she had prosthetic teeth in.

And prosthetic breasts too

 

[El Bastardo]

To be honest, not really. I can think of many ways in which the first two episodes can be combined (cutting out certain redundant or unnecessary scenes). I'm not going to elaborate all that much as I don't want to debate this point again as I understand that fans of the book see where this is going and therefore may have more patience where as I argue that the two mediums are entirely different and it is unfair to expect viewers to wait while the story is being told in a form that does not fit the medium. But I digress....I feel like we are being told a lot of information that while perhaps necessary, can be shown in a different way, either through incorporation of later scenes (to use my example last week, Cate just being at Renly's and in one line of dialogue saying that Robb sent her rather than showing five minutes of him sending her) or through the more visual medium (which requires less dialogue).

I feel that the writers are trying too hard to stay faithful to the material and in doing so are failing to translate the story in a way fitting to its new medium (television).

I understand that I am in a minority here, but I stand by it.

That scene, though, also involves speaking about Balon Greyjoy, if I remember correctly? Cat makes some statements about his trustworthiness, and Ned fighting against him, and whatever else. There's no one else to convey that information, and it does provide a lead-in to Balon's reaction toward Theon's presence for the second episode. In that case, why not hit two birds with one stone in that scene, as opposed to another scene?


That's just some minor devil's advocate, for the record. I don't disagree with the point that the brief mentioning wasn't necessarily needed there, and that it could be a potential misstep.


The overall point you make is definitely spot-on and correct, too: a story needs to fit its medium. When considering an adaptation, the new medium needs to be the first consideration for storytelling. What works in any one medium does not necessarily work in another - the easiest to illustrate, for Game of Thrones, is our losing a lot of what goes on in the characters' heads.


Do you remember any of your examples from the first season? You can PM them to me, if you want, in the event you're wary it'll turn into a ****storm. Or tell me how many pages back they might be, and I'll dig and search. Just curious at looking at some, and it'd give me an excuse to open the packaging, which I haven't done yet.

 

[Havok83]

He does, and she's a real pain in the ass. But a man has urges and Mel's dress had come undone somehow!

Stannis does have a wife. She was even seen briefly at the ceremony in the last episode.

Thanks. If that’s the case, then wouldn’t her kids be the true heirs and the red head’s bastards?

 

[nite-owl]

So is Davos now an athiest in the show because in the books I' am sure he had a strong faith in the seven.

And I still don't know why Cunningham is doing a Geordie accent.

 

[DACrowe]

To be honest, not really. I can think of many ways in which the first two episodes can be combined (cutting out certain redundant or unnecessary scenes). I'm not going to elaborate all that much as I don't want to debate this point again as I understand that fans of the book see where this is going and therefore may have more patience where as I argue that the two mediums are entirely different and it is unfair to expect viewers to wait while the story is being told in a form that does not fit the medium. But I digress....I feel like we are being told a lot of information that while perhaps necessary, can be shown in a different way, either through incorporation of later scenes (to use my example last week, Cate just being at Renly's and in one line of dialogue saying that Robb sent her rather than showing five minutes of him sending her) or through the more visual medium (which requires less dialogue).

I feel that the writers are trying too hard to stay faithful to the material and in doing so are failing to translate the story in a way fitting to its new medium (television).

I understand that I am in a minority here, but I stand by it.

Yes and no. You probably can't tell (which is a good thing) but there is a lot of condensing already. Arya's two scenes is the combination of about five in the book (including one from much later in the story). Theon's scenes this week combined three separate events on his return home into one quickly told, streamlined sequence.

But I can see your point. I imagine the writers grapple with that, but they also don't want audience members confused, such as if they didn't remember who Theon was and saw him on a ship with some passing mention of Robb that may have gone over their heads or why Cat would go to Renly's instead of home to her small children. But it's a fair opinion.

 

[Matt]

That scene, though, also involves speaking about Balon Greyjoy, if I remember correctly? Cat makes some statements about his trustworthiness, and Ned fighting against him, and whatever else. There's no one else to convey that information, and it does provide a lead-in to Balon's reaction toward Theon's presence for the second episode. In that case, why not hit two birds with one stone in that scene, as opposed to another scene?


That's just some minor devil's advocate, for the record. I don't disagree with the point that the brief mentioning wasn't necessarily needed there, and that it could be a potential misstep.


The overall point you make is definitely spot-on and correct, too: a story needs to fit its medium. When considering an adaptation, the new medium needs to be the first consideration for storytelling. What works in any one medium does not necessarily work in another - the easiest to illustrate, for Game of Thrones, is our losing a lot of what goes on in the characters' heads.


Do you remember any of your examples from the first season? You can PM them to me, if you want, in the event you're wary it'll turn into a ****storm. Or tell me how many pages back they might be, and I'll dig and search. Just curious at looking at some, and it'd give me an excuse to open the packaging, which I haven't done yet.

I don't recall examples from the first season, but this could be for two very important reasons....

1) I watched the first season On-Demand in just a few sittings, making it easier to overlook such pacing issues as it was quick for me.

2) It is easier to forgive it in a preliminary season. The first season felt very much like an extended epilogue, it was laying down the ground work for the real conflict of this story (the war of the five kings/all that **** going on with Dany and the wall). But by this point, we should be past that. The set up should be over. We should be into the heart of the story, yet the first two episodes of season two have felt like more set up.

I suppose the biggest example from season one that springs to mind is EVERYTHING with Dany. I have read this criticism from reviewers who did not read the book on many occasions and I find myself agreeing. I just don't care about what is happening with her. I understand that may be different for people who have read the book and understand how she will ultimately tie in, but to a viewer who hasn't, there is this entirely separate character whose plot has no real connection to the main story taking up about 15-20 % of each episode's screen time, basically walking through a desert. It doesn't help much that the actress who plays Dany completely lacks the charisma to carry these scenes.

Again, I understand it is important....but that is the challenge of the adapter, like you said, to fit the story to the medium. There had to have been a more compelling way to convey the information than what we received.

And I am pretty sure I am not in the minority on this one as basically every review of the first season where the critic admitted to not being a fan of the books that I read when deciding whether or not to watch this, criticized Dany's story. Not that critics agreeing to me validates my opinion, just using it as an example how the writers have failed to adapt a story line in a sufficient way and have alienated some viewers with that particular storyline.

And you raise a very interesting point about the lack of POV characters. That is one HUGE gripe I think I am going to have moving forward. I've read some spoilers on what becomes of Theon and it seems that he [blackout]does a major heel turn and betrays the Stark family. Now this may make perfect sense in the context of the book, where you can read his thoughts and understand the process behind the betrayal. But on screen, while he has had a chip on his shoulder at times, it seems like the Starks have treated him like a son and Robb like a brother (perhaps even more so than Jon). His betrayal is going to feel completely out of left field, IMO.[/blackout]

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, Arya owning up to being a Stark "shouldn't" have happened for a while. But the show doesn't have the luxury of 900 pages to tell the story.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I enjoyed Theon's father schooling him.

lol, noob.

 

[DACrowe]

So is Davos now an athiest in the show because in the books I' am sure he had a strong faith in the seven.

And I still don't know why Cunningham is doing a Geordie accent.

In the second book he doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about it one way or the other. But after [blackout]all his sons die in fire during the Blackwater battle and he nearly dies of starvation and dehydration on a barren island, he comes to an epiphany that he is being punished by the Seven gods for going along with Melissandre who he is convinced is evil.[/blackout]

So, that can still play out with the initial emphasis on his skepticism in the show.

 

[rayc1971]

LOL, Theon is such a dick.

But his sister... is she a little f**ed in the head or something? She KNEW he was her brother and she still let him feel her up.

yeah that was icky because she knew and let him do it anyway! but then again cersei and jaime use to bump together all the time lol

 

[rayc1971]

mel was smoking hot when she undid that robe do you blame stannis lol

 

[Matt]

Yes and no. You probably can't tell (which is a good thing) but there is a lot of condensing already. Arya's two scenes is the combination of about five in the book (including one from much later in the story). Theon's scenes this week combined three separate events on his return home into one quickly told, streamlined sequence.

But I can see your point. I imagine the writers grapple with that, but they also don't want audience members confused, such as if they didn't remember who Theon was and saw him on a ship with some passing mention of Robb that may have gone over their heads or why Cat would go to Renly's instead of home to her small children. But it's a fair opinion.

I'm going to use an example that some here may not be familiar with....Mass Effect 3.

In ME3, a lot of fans have complained that Shepard's trial for destroying the Batarian colony in ME2 was now shown/played. When the action of ME3 picks up, it is six months later....Shepard has been imprisoned in house arrest and the attack of the Reapers has more or less begun, which leads to the council summoning Shepard and basically begging for help.

While showing his trial undoubtedly would have added onto the idea of the martyr who has spent the past 2 games being mocked and shunned for trying to warn the galaxy about the Reapers, it was left out. The writers still managed to get the themes of the hero's persecution across through the opening dialogue with the Alliance commanders and Admiral Anderson.

My point is, while I get and understand that these scenes better build characterization and may explain more, there are other ways to go about it....and while maybe as optimal as showing Cate and Robb talking, or displaying Shepard's trial....sometimes streamlining is necessary.

 

[Crockett]

But his sister... is she a little f**ed in the head or something? She KNEW he was her brother and she still let him feel her up.

She wanted to humiliate him, especially since Theon was expecting everybody be happy now that he has returned, he's being naive and arrogant and that amuses her. Modesty and a moral compass are not common traits so it's a weird kind of humor if you look from our point of view but honestly, in that world, it's worth nothing more than a shrug.

 

[DACrowe]

And I am pretty sure I am not in the minority on this one as basically every review of the first season where the critic admitted to not being a fan of the books that I read when deciding whether or not to watch this, criticized Dany's story. Not that critics agreeing to me validates my opinion, just using it as an example how the writers have failed to adapt a story line in a sufficient way and have alienated some viewers with that particular storyline.

Dany's story is actually more interesting in the show to me. In the first two books it is a snoozer, save for when Drogo gives Viserys his "crown."

That is one HUGE gripe I think I am going to have moving forward. I've read some spoilers on what becomes of Theon and it seems that he [blackout]does a major heel turn and betrays the Stark family. Now this may make perfect sense in the context of the book, where you can read his thoughts and understand the process behind the betrayal. But on screen, while he has had a chip on his shoulder at times, it seems like the Starks have treated him like a son and Robb like a brother (perhaps even more so than Jon). His betrayal is going to feel completely out of left field, IMO.[/blackout]

I actually think it's playing out pretty well. Mind you we're still at the beginning of that transformation, but they did a good job of showing [blackout]Theon as someone who is uncomfortable with his role in Winterfell as the ward/hostage in S1. We see him go home to Pyke to legitimately help Robb. But he expects to be welcomed home as the Lost Son and heir apparent. Instead, he is met with skepticism and disdain and finds that he has been replaced by his sister. Theon is going to want to prove himself to his father to earn his respect--otherwise he has no home because he'll be neither a Stark nor a Greyjoy--and he'll become increasingly desperate to do so as events unfold.[/blackout]

I think they're handling that just right.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Why are those people in the forest risking their lives to protect Stark's daughter and the Kings bastard son?

 

[Matt]

Dany's story is actually more interesting in the show to me. In the first two books it is a snoozer, save for when Drogo gives Viserys his "crown."



I actually think it's playing out pretty well. Mind you we're still at the beginning of that transformation, but they did a good job of showing [blackout]Theon as someone who is uncomfortable with his role in Winterfell as the ward/hostage in S1. We see him go home to Pyke to legitimately help Robb. But he expects to be welcomed home as the Lost Son and heir apparent. Instead, he is met with skepticism and disdain and finds that he has been replaced by his sister. Theon is going to want to prove himself to his father to earn his respect--otherwise he has no home because he'll be neither a Stark nor a Greyjoy--and he'll become increasingly desperate to do so as events unfold.[/blackout]

I think they're handling that just right.

Perhaps, because it hasn't really played out yet. I am just fearful without the POV, he is going to come off as a guy who [blackout]is dicking over his entire "family," in Winterfell for the approval of a slimey, evil bastard.[/blackout]

 

[DACrowe]

She wanted to humiliate him, especially since Theon was expecting everybody be happy now that he has returned, he's being naive and arrogant and that amuses her. Modesty and a moral compass are not common traits so it's a weird kind of humor if you look from our point of view but honestly, in that world, it's worth nothing more than a shrug.

It's explained better in the book. She walked up to him and let him treat her however he wanted--which for Theon was lust--and then played along. She wanted to see "what kind of man" her brother grew up to be. She was not impressed much with what she saw.

 

[DACrowe]

Why are those people in the forest risking their lives to protect Stark's daughter and the Kings bastard son?

They aren't. They're mostly from the dungeons of King's Landing. Yoren, with Ned Stark's help, cleaned them out to make them all men of the Night's Watch. As they have accepted taking the black, they are the responsibility and under the protection of the Night's Watch. Yoren is in charge and decides if they can be taken, given that we know he is a good man by saving Arya and trying to take her home to Winterfell, it's not surprising he didn't bend the knee to some goldcloaks who want to take and kill a boy under his watch.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

And you raise a very interesting point about the lack of POV characters. That is one HUGE gripe I think I am going to have moving forward. I've read some spoilers on what becomes of Theon and it seems that he [blackout]does a major heel turn and betrays the Stark family. Now this may make perfect sense in the context of the book, where you can read his thoughts and understand the process behind the betrayal. But on screen, while he has had a chip on his shoulder at times, it seems like the Starks have treated him like a son and Robb like a brother (perhaps even more so than Jon). His betrayal is going to feel completely out of left field, IMO.[/blackout]

DACrowe pointed out that he's

Spoiler

more of a hostage than Ned's ward in season 1. There's also a couple other scenes from season 1. When Maester Luwin is going through house sigils and mottos, he gets to the Greyjoys. Theon says they're great at "sailing, archery, and love-making." Luwin just shoots back "and failed rebellions." This makes it clear that the Greyjoys are not thought of well among the Starks or other Westerosi. The other scene is when a wildling is holding a knife to Bran, Theon kills him from behind with his bow. Rather than thanking him for saving Bran's life, Robb chastises him that he could have killed Bran or missed all together.

He was too much of a Greyjoy to fit in with the Starks but the Ironmen think he's too much of a Stark to just be accepted from his return. He realizes soon.

I don't like Theon, but he's a really interesting character. In a world where people identify themselves by their families, he really has none that he truly belongs to.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

They aren't. They're mostly from the dungeons of King's Landing. Yoren, with Ned Stark's help, cleaned them out to make them all men of the Night's Watch. As they have accepted taking the black, they are the responsibility and under the protection of the Night's Watch. Yoren is in charge and decides if they can be taken, given that we know he is a good man by saving Arya and trying to take her home to Winterfell, it's not surprising he didn't bend the knee to some goldcloaks who want to take and kill a boy under his watch.

Oh I see, thanks.