Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 2

[Sawyer]

Just started in on season one. I'm on about episode 2 right now, and I've gotta ask....

Does Ned's wife ever stop being such a collossal ***** to Jon Snow?

 

[Rowsdower!]

No. Hence the reason I f***ing hate her.

 

[conan69]

Regarding Theon living with the Starks and the conversation about that...

Children were held hostage to ensure obedience and allegiance. Balon revolted when Robert was King. Stannis smashed the Iron Fleet and Ned ended up killing Theons 2 older brothers, ending the Rebellion and taking Theon at a young age to ensure Balons obedience.

Thing is, The Starks are honor bound to treat Theon according to his birthright - which is highborn. Theon is a prince. He would be educated, taught fighting skills, etc, and treated very well.

But he was still always a hostage no matter how close he eventually became with the Starks, like Robb or how you color coated it, which Tyrion taunts Theon about in season 1 when Tyrion visited Winterfell. Tyrion calling him a Stark lackey and what would Balon Greyjoy think of his sons cozyness with the family who helped end his fathers rebellion and Theon warns Tyrion hes going too far in his taunts.


As for Stannis, after the Burning the Seven ritual, if you watch Stannis begins to walk away, then takes a few steps back and puts out his hand. A young girl then runs towards him. I think that his daughter, not his wife. Mel made a comment about Stannis wife convalescing in a castle elsewhere when she seduced him.

 

[Havok83]

Just started in on season one. I'm on about episode 2 right now, and I've gotta ask....

Does Ned's wife ever stop being such a collossal ***** to Jon Snow?

As of episode 2 of season 2, she doesnt have any other interactions with him

Regarding Theon living with the Starks and the conversation about that...

Children were held hostage to ensure obedience and allegiance. Balon revolted when Robert was King. Stannis smashed the Iron Fleet and Ned ended up killing Theons 2 older brothers, ending the Rebellion and taking Theon at a young age to ensure Balons obedience.

Thing is, The Starks are honor bound to treat Theon according to his birthright - which is highborn. Theon is a prince. He would be educated, taught fighting skills, etc, and treated very well.

But he was still always a hostage no matter how close he eventually became with the Starks, like Robb.

This is talked about in the first season when Tyrion visits Winterfell and taunts Theon, calling him a Stark lackey and what would Balon Greyjoy think of his sons cozyness with the family who helped end his fathers rebellion.Theon warns Tyrion hes going too far in his taunts.

oh wow, thanks. Can they really trust him then? This sounds like it screams of rebellion and betrayal

 

[Marvolo]

Just started in on season one. I'm on about episode 2 right now, and I've gotta ask....

Does Ned's wife ever stop being such a collossal ***** to Jon Snow?

I despise Catelyn Stark in most cases, and no she doesn't. That being said look at it from her perspective. Ned went off to war, and came back with a bastard. He wont' say who the mother is, and she is just supposed to love this child that to her is nothing more than evidence her husband was with another woman. She resents him greatly.

 

[Crockett]

It's explained better in the book. She walked up to him and let him treat her however he wanted--which for Theon was lust--and then played along. She wanted to see "what kind of man" her brother grew up to be. She was not impressed much with what she saw.

I wish they include the whole "lord husband and sweet babe" line in this episode but is it too much to hope they'll include the whole scene in the food hall where she continues to humiliate him in the next, I really liked that part in the book.

 

[conan69]

If Stannis and Mel produce a son he won't be a bastard. Remember, he's trying to establish a new reign. Its not a continuation of Robert's, it will be his. He can make anyone his queen he wishes and thus legitimize the child.

Bold mine.
This is especially shown to be true in way we'll hopefully see next week when Stannis and Renly meet. Its a detail, but a kind of important one, that even Davos realizes is a mistake when it comes to Blackwater.

 

[Havok83]

It's been 17 years. I think it's long since time for her to get the hell over it. Treating Jon like utter crap for something he didn't do (being born) and resenting a child is just low. I get where she's coming from but he is her children's brother and they love him as family. She should have tried to accept him at least for their sake. I don't think her contempt for Jon is justified

 

[Marvolo]

It's been 17 years. I think it's long since time for her to get the hell over it. Treating Jon like utter crap for something he didn't do (being born) and resenting a child is just low. I get where she's coming from but he is her children's brother and they love him as family. She should have tried to accept him at least for their sake. I don't think her contempt for Jon is justified

Its in the culture. It seems weird and downright awful for us and our generation, but we have to put ourselves in this culture. Bastards are beneath the average person, and are definitely below highborns. Their value is strictly granted by their father, and not hereditary. Catelyn is highborn, and to her Jon is beneath her, plus a cause for great distress.

Its just as much Ned's fault, tho. He has kept the details of Jon's birth a secret, and chastises her when she inquires about it. There is a reason why he is doing it, but still it leads to strife. This leads to a lot of the resentment. It's more clear in the book as to why she feels the way she does.

 

[Crockett]

I guess I don't mind with it now with that scene between Melisandre and Stannis since subtlety doesn't work well on TV compared to the books, but it feels too rushed with Stannis going from one minute "I took a vow" to "A son eh?", I always thought he does it more for duty rather than for lust but this would work if they need to show where the [BLACKOUT]shadow thing[/BLACKOUT] came from.

Mel mentioned stillborn sons but she no mentioning about Shireen though, so I guess they took her out, no big loss there if that's the case.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

You also have to consider that it's unheard of for a bastard to be raised among his trueborn siblings, especially for a great house like the Starks. And Catelyn herself is a member of a great house (Tully). Her children have the greatest pedigree in Westeros and they're raised with their bastard brother. It's a huge insult to her and Ned won't even tell her who Jon's mother is.

 

[Thundercrack85]

That actually wasn't uncommon in olden times, to pass off an illegitimate child as a legitimate. Hell, a lot of princes were probably just commoner babies a king and queen claimed to be their own.

But then in real life, virtually all nobles and royals had mistresses, and bastards, since most marriages were loveless charades. A king not having a mistress was seen as rather strange.

 

[Marvolo]

That actually wasn't uncommon in olden times, to pass off an illegitimate child as a legitimate. Hell, a lot of princes were probably just commoner babies a king and queen claimed to be their own.

But then in real life, virtually all nobles and royals had mistresses, and bastards, since most marriages were loveless charades. Hell, a king not having a mistress was seen as rather strange.

It's strange in Westeros also. In Westeros though you don't keep your bastards in your home. You can send them money and check in, but you wouldn't want people knowing you are doing it. Its taboo in Westeros.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

What Marvolo said. You make sure they're taken care of. That's how Jon Arryn knew what bastards were Roberts. Nothing more is done though unless they're legitimized.

[blackout]It's funny you mention illegitimate children being passed off as legitimate when Jon may actually be the reverse.[/blackout]

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, I assumed from day one that Jon was meant to be someone special. Beyond the fact that they keep focusing on him, his birth remains a mystery, and the mystery has been discussed by Ned and Robert. If he was just an ordinary bastard son, I doubt that Ned and the King would be talking about it. And Ned doesn't seem like the type who would cheat on his wife.

I would assume he's someone important's son.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Well, I assumed from day one that Jon was meant to be someone special. Beyond the fact that they keep focusing on him, his birth remains a mystery, and the mystery has been discussed by Ned and Robert. If he was just an ordinary bastard son, I doubt that Ned and the King would be talking about it. And Ned doesn't seem like the type who would cheat on his wife.

I would assume he's someone important's son.

The common theory is that he's [blackout]the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark which would make him the rightful King of Westeros. Lyanna's last words were "Promise me, Ned" so it's assumed she asked him to protect Jon by claiming him as his bastard son.[/blackout]

 

[Thundercrack85]

Do theories need spoiler tags?

[BLACKOUT]It seems odd that she hates him. Unless she is completely obvious. If that is the case, Ned really should have told her that he is her nephew.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Spidey-Bat]

It's better to use the spoiler tag than not.

Spoiler

The hints are in the book but barely there in the show. Ned couldn't tell her, one of his thoughts in the book is, "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

If anyone else knows, Howland Reed is one of them since he was the only other survivor when Ned went to get Lyanna.

 

[conan69]

About that theory. I dont believe that makes a certain person legitimate....

Spoiler

I'm not so sure it legitimizes Jon. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell. Having a child with Lyanna - Jon would still be a bastard, unless his marriage to Elia wa disolved and he married Lyanna in secret. We know Elia was sill alive during Roberts Rebellion. Even if he did divorce Elia, you can use HenryVIII as a example, and some would see Elia as the rightul Queen and refuse to recognize any offspring from Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Aegon has been hidden in Dorne all these years.

You'd basically have Daenerys, Aegon, and Jon Snow, but wouldnt Aegon actually be the legitimate heir, even over Daeny? He is the son of Rhaegar and Elia, so Daeny would be behind Aegon in the order of heir.

Am I getting that right or no?

 

[chamber-music]

Alot kings real life just did what Henry the 8th did with his illegitimate son Henry Fitzroy and just make a title up for him and give him a bunch of land and money.

Fitzroy couldn't be king because he was illegitimate so Henry made him 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset as well as Earl of Nottingham.

And prosthetic breasts too

The actress was in the West End stage production of Childeren's Hour with Keira Knightley and Ellen Burstyn. I hate her character.

And I still don't know why Cunningham is doing a Geordie accent.

I don't know was he doing a Geordie accent?

It certainly sounds like he toned his irish accent down a bit but he sounds to me like he does in Clash Of The Titans and Outcast.

Its weird hearing the actor who plays Hodor speak in a scouse accent in real life.

It sort of makes me laugh how all the Starks have different English regional accents in the show it doesn't bother me or anything t:

 

[smashmode]

DACrowe pointed out that he's

Spoiler

more of a hostage than Ned's ward in season 1. There's also a couple other scenes from season 1. When Maester Luwin is going through house sigils and mottos, he gets to the Greyjoys. Theon says they're great at "sailing, archery, and love-making." Luwin just shoots back "and failed rebellions." This makes it clear that the Greyjoys are not thought of well among the Starks or other Westerosi. The other scene is when a wildling is holding a knife to Bran, Theon kills him from behind with his bow. Rather than thanking him for saving Bran's life, Robb chastises him that he could have killed Bran or missed all together.

He was too much of a Greyjoy to fit in with the Starks but the Ironmen think he's too much of a Stark to just be accepted from his return. He realizes soon.

I don't like Theon, but he's a really interesting character. In a world where people identify themselves by their families, he really has none that he truly belongs to.

Also remember from season one that

Spoiler

Tyrion made fun of Theon for being a lapdog of the Starks or something.

 

[ChickenScratch]

It's explained better in the book. She walked up to him and let him treat her however he wanted--which for Theon was lust--and then played along. She wanted to see "what kind of man" her brother grew up to be. She was not impressed much with what she saw.

Yup. Continuing where you left off. The Iron Islands see themselves as tougher, hardier people than those freom Westeros. I always thought of the Iron Islands as sort of Greenland and such. Places with not much in the way of agricultuure so they depend upon the sea and pillaging. They are the Vikings of the show.

As for how Theon acted. They see the Westerosi as weak, lustfull, etc, because they have an easy life. Plus they have the coolest religion in all over GOT, they worship the Drowned God!

 

[Marvolo]

Yup. Continuing where you left off. The Iron Islands see themselves as tougher, hardier people than those freom Westeros. I always thought of the Iron Islands as sort of Greenland and such. Places with not much in the way of agricultuure so they depend upon the sea and pillaging. They are the Vikings of the show.

As for how Theon acted. They see the Westerosi as weak, lustfull, etc, because they have an easy life. Plus they have the coolest religion in all over GOT, they worship the Drowned God!

To whose watery halls we all go to feast, and be serviced by mermaids.t:

 

[Thundercrack85]

But let's not forget that legitimacy is only important if you want to get power legitimately through an existing system. If you show up with a big enough army and dragons, no one is going to question your legitimacy, even if you're the town drunk's bastard son.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

About that theory. I dont believe that makes a certain person legitimate....

Spoiler

I'm not so sure it legitimizes Jon. Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell. Having a child with Lyanna - Jon would still be a bastard, unless his marriage to Elia wa disolved and he married Lyanna in secret. We know Elia was sill alive during Roberts Rebellion. Even if he did divorce Elia, you can use HenryVIII as a example, and some would see Elia as the rightul Queen and refuse to recognize any offspring from Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Aegon has been hidden in Dorne all these years.

You'd basically have Daenerys, Aegon, and Jon Snow, but wouldnt Aegon actually be the legitimate heir, even over Daeny? He is the son of Rhaegar and Elia, so Daeny would be behind Aegon in the order of heir.

Am I getting that right or no?

ADWD spoilers

Spoiler

I don't think there's a clear answer.

If Rhaegar married Lyanna and dissolved his marriage to Elia, Jon would be a legit heir and Aegon possibly removed as one.
If Rhaegar married Lyanna and stayed married to Elia (have 2 wives, possible since Aegon the Conqueror did and Elia couldn't have another child for the "dragon has 3 heads" thing), then Aegon and Jon are both heirs in that order.
But right now, it's a moot point since Jon is in the Night's Watch.