The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[BatLobster]

TFA ending on a cliffhanger did more harm than good. Great as a marketing tool. Bad in terms of the storytelling.

Finn being in a coma was a pointless way to end his character journey in TFA. It was like freezing Han in carbonite, minus ANY element of real suspense. It was literally just JJ's way to send Rey off to train with Luke without burdening her with the sidekick. Tell me I'm wrong.

This is without getting into the fundamental issue of restarting the central conflict of the OT off-screen, implicating Luke's failure and absence as a central part of that, and then giving us nothing of Luke's point of view in that film.

I would've loved a scenario where we could've had everything important established in the first film, and been in a position to time jump into the second film, as per tradition. Rian was written into a corner. There was nothing on Luke's face that said "Okay, guess I'm going to train you now". He looks distraught. There was no way to do a time jump where she's already been training for months without glossing over the core of what's interesting about that scene. Which is, "what does Luke feel about this?" Mind you, I think Rian embraced the challenge and probably liked the idea of bucking tradition continuing directly after the previous film, and obviously embraced the type of redemption arc this setup suggested for Luke.

And even if you did force a time jump-- either Finn is still in a coma months later, meaning his character benefits 0 from any off-screen character development...or you simply just have it that he woke up off-screen, which is awkward and clunky.

It's easy for Finn to feel more important when he's being used as a point of entry character and the movie is slowly catching you up on the Skywalker family drama. Once that's come to the forefront, it becomes a lot harder for a guy who is not portrayed as especially skilled or competent (especially for an ex-Stormtrooper), or Force sensitive to stay afloat in a story so tied into legacy and The Force. Finn and Rose actually make a lot of sense as a duo. They are both the anonymous background characters that should have no business having anything to do with the larger narrative of a Star Wars movie, yet they do.

 

[Bobber]

You can't have Finn wake up off screen, and you can't have Luke decide to train Rey happening off screen either. It's a great ending for TFA, but a thankless job to pick up on.

 

[Drizzle]

Honestly, I will never understand on why the decision was made to kill Luke Skywalker off at the end of TLJ. Fans had waited for several years to see their favorite hero return on the big screen. We were only given a small tease of him in TFA, which made everyone more eager to see him finally participate in the sequel trilogy.

Putting aside his characterization in the film, I feel like fans would have been more forgiving of those creative choices if Luke had been allowed to move forward and right some of his wrongs/mistakes before becoming one with the force.

With the untimely passing of Carrie Fisher, the decision should have been made to rewrite Luke's ending so that he could live and become a true mentor to Rey in the next film.

This, a thousand times this. That was the thing I disliked most about The Last Jedi. While we all pretty much guessed that Luke would return in IX as a Force ghost, they really should have kept him alive at the end of The Last Jedi after Carrie's passing. That being said, his actual death scene where he's looking at the sunset was perfect. I just wish it was saved for IX.

 

[Mani-Man]

With all this New Infos, i would really like to know if that "diving in without a Plan" also involved Snoke or if he always was meant to be a failed clone.

What was his original Story, who was He when the Character was created?

 

[BatLobster]

This, a thousand times this. That was the thing I disliked most about The Last Jedi. While we all pretty much guessed that Luke would return in IX as a Force ghost, they really should have kept him alive at the end of The Last Jedi after Carrie's passing. That being said, his actual death scene where he's looking at the sunset was perfect. I just wish it was saved for IX.

I don't even think you had to keep him alive, honestly. I would've been totally down for a more expanded ghost-Luke role in IX, instead of the cameo we got in TROS (one thing I do appreciate about Trevorrow's attempt). With them introducing elements like Force Ghosts interacting more with the physical world, to the point where Yoda can summon lightning and Luke can lift an X-Wing, along with the idea that Palpatine is some sort of immortal Sith spirit...I was hoping to see a bit more of an exploration of the Force spirit world in the final film.

One thing I have to give TROS a bit of credit for though is I do think it strikes a good balance of letting the young leads carry the movie without as much reliance on the legacy characters (while also elevating Threepio's role a bit in a fun way). Its heart was in the right place there. It's why the thing I always come back to with IX is it really just needed to be a longer film, to give everything more room to breathe and explore some of these big ideas while still giving the young leads time to shine. I'll die on that hill!

 

[Frodo]

With all this New Infos, i would really like to know if that "diving in without a Plan" also involved Snoke or if he always was meant to be a failed clone.

What was his original Story, who was He when the Character was created?

I doubt he was always meant to be a failed clone. What he was meant to be as far as JJ was concerned, we won't know for a while.

I think Snoke basically became a failed clone once JJ and crew brought Palpatine back, and they wanted to make Palpatine the puppet master and tie all films together.

They had to account for how a powerful character like Snoke would allow himself to be under Palpatine's control, so they decided to go the clone route in an attempt to explain those questions away.

 

[henzINNIT]

I believe that Snoke was not even Sith circa 2015. They stressed that he was a different kind of dark sider.

Luke catching Ren's lightsaber blade would have been awesome. We got a bad wig and a hand awkwardly hid behind a cloak instead. For shame.

 

[Marvolo]

The latest Star Wars comic has Luke fighting the ghost of the Grand Inquisitor further reinforcing that Dark Side acolytes can exist beyond death. Apparently Vader trapped the spirit of the GI and want allow him to move on to the afterlife.

 

[antsman41]

I believe that Snoke was not even Sith circa 2015. They stressed that he was a different kind of dark sider.

Luke catching Ren's lightsaber blade would have been awesome. We got a bad wig and a hand awkwardly hid behind a cloak instead. For shame.

Luckily the comics and Mandalorian are keeping my fandom sort of alive... this (being post TROS) is the first time I’ve truly question enjoying Star Wars.

I put any of my ST Black Series figures into storage. They just keep reminding me of the terrible their film when sitting on my shelf.

 

[henzINNIT]

Luckily the comics and Mandalorian are keeping my fandom sort of alive... this (being post TROS) is the first time I’ve truly question enjoying Star Wars.

I put any of my ST Black Series figures into storage. They just keep reminding me of the terrible their film when sitting on my shelf.

I didn't really enjoy Mando so I'm really out of it now. Play Battlefront a bit, I wish they were still putting out content.

 

[Marvolo]

 

[antsman41]

Concept art outshining the final product... the case for this whole trilogy.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Honestly, I will never understand on why the decision was made to kill Luke Skywalker off at the end of TLJ. Fans had waited for several years to see their favorite hero return on the big screen. We were only given a small tease of him in TFA, which made everyone more eager to see him finally participate in the sequel trilogy.

Putting aside his characterization in the film, I feel like fans would have been more forgiving of those creative choices if Luke had been allowed to move forward and right some of his wrongs/mistakes before becoming one with the force.

With the untimely passing of Carrie Fisher, the decision should have been made to rewrite Luke's ending so that he could live and become a true mentor to Rey in the next film.

This, so damn much this. Leave Luke alive at the end of TLJ, and half of my problems with that movie go away. One of many silly decisions Johnson made, and for me left the 3rd movie stunted in where it could go.

On side note I watched TROS again tonight, and while I have many issues with it still, I enjoy it the more I watch it. I honestly can’t bare the thought of trying to watch TLJ again.

 

[fan4stic]

I never said 'forced', was merely pointing out a few of the factors that influenced Johnson's script.

I'd argue the reason Johnson picked up immediately was because JJ ended the film on a cliffhanger, but if you want to believe it was cog in a writer's nefarious plot then go ahead.

I'd also argue that Luke's circumstances grew out of reasoning why a great and noble hero would have already abandoned his friends and family at a time of war.

A time skip with Rey training in the mean-time is problematic. The notion that Rey arrived on that island, handed Luke the sabre, he took it and said 'okay lets train' is probably the most dramatically boring thing you could possibly do. Again it calls into question why Luke has been absent.

TFA ending on a cliffhanger did more harm than good. Great as a marketing tool. Bad in terms of the storytelling.

Finn being in a coma was a pointless way to end his character journey in TFA. It was like freezing Han in carbonite, minus ANY element of real suspense. It was literally just JJ's way to send Rey off to train with Luke without burdening her with the sidekick. Tell me I'm wrong.

This is without getting into the fundamental issue of restarting the central conflict of the OT off-screen, implicating Luke's failure and absence as a central part of that, and then giving us nothing of Luke's point of view in that film.

I would've loved a scenario where we could've had everything important established in the first film, and been in a position to time jump into the second film, as per tradition. Rian was written into a corner. There was nothing on Luke's face that said "Okay, guess I'm going to train you now". He looks distraught. There was no way to do a time jump where she's already been training for months without glossing over the core of what's interesting about that scene. Which is, "what does Luke feel about this?" Mind you, I think Rian embraced the challenge and probably liked the idea of bucking tradition continuing directly after the previous film, and obviously embraced the type of redemption arc this setup suggested for Luke.

Rian could've asked JJ not to end it on a cliffhanger, not have Finn be in a coma, but still injured and unable to travel. I've read he was up for asking JJ to have R2D2 instead of BB8, no floating rocks around Luke and such. It could've been resolved or changed.

Rian wasnt backed into making all the choices he made. He had options. Luke can still be a tortured figure. It doesn't have to be the way it was written. Finn can not go with Rey. It doesn't mean his character had to be used the way it was.

The distraught look can be about something else. Personally I think I remember the distraught looked being more of pain and sadness than I think TLJ developed at the beginning, which I remember being more angry or something.

And even if you did force a time jump-- either Finn is still in a coma months later, meaning his character benefits 0 from any off-screen character development...or you simply just have it that he woke up off-screen, which is awkward and clunky.

It's easy for Finn to feel more important when he's being used as a point of entry character and the movie is slowly catching you up on the Skywalker family drama. Once that's come to the forefront, it becomes a lot harder for a guy who is not portrayed as especially skilled or competent (especially for an ex-Stormtrooper), or Force sensitive to stay afloat in a story so tied into legacy and The Force. Finn and Rose actually make a lot of sense as a duo. They are both the anonymous background characters that should have no business having anything to do with the larger narrative of a Star Wars movie, yet they do.

How is that different from his character being in a coma either way? Rian could've asked JJ not to end Finn in a coma.

Han, in the first movie, has no business being connected to the situation. He's just a guy who gets involved. Finn can be used with a more prominent dramatic character arc.

I think Finn and Poe, 2 characters who've already connected, has more reason to be paired as a buddy duo, than introducing a random new character.

You can't have Finn wake up off screen, and you can't have Luke decide to train Rey happening off screen either. It's a great ending for TFA, but a thankless job to pick up on.

While I kinda disagree with the Finn thing, you don't have to. Open the movie on the Luke scene, resolve it, time jump. Or say that there was a longer time jump than we thought, between starkiller base destruction and they'd been getting their ducks in order. Or Rian could've asked JJ not to end it on a cliffhanger. I've read he was up for asking JJ to have R2D2 instead of BB8, no floating rocks around Luke and such. They could've resolved the scene right there. I think, to me, the issue is that Rian decided that his movie was gonna be in a short time span, when he didn't have to have a movie be that.

That isn't Finn's arc in TFA at all. He didn't become a 'determined opponent' after witnessing the New Republic destroyed. Did you not finish that very scene? Because it builds to determined Finn sprinting across the battlefield after.... Rey.

You can slate the Phasma fight all you like but it is that moment of growth. When she calls him scum and he retorts 'Rebel scum' with pride, he's actually signalling some transformation.

Why does he need to signal it? We don't need him to signal it by vocalizing his change. I think it's there when he sees Han killed, and Rey grabs him to snap him out of, what I think is, glaring at Kylo. In that situation, he's not running to Rey.

It is worth noting that Mark Hamill was *****ing about Episode 7 long before 8, it's just not clung to by people who need the validation. It's doubly worth noting that a big chunk of Hamill's criticism stems from the fact that the OT cast were not reunited, something that JJ rendered impossible, not Rian Johnson.

I think TLJ continued that trend. I think neither did great work in their movies.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yeah, Luke's look at the end of TFA didn't have to be interpreted the way it was by Johnson. He didn't look particularly happy, but he didn't look particularly sad or angry either, just a kind of stern faced look that certainly didn't indicate he would be tossing his family lightsaber away.

His exile also could have been for a few reasons. Johnson didn't have to make him someone who just left his friends to suffer, and he certainly didn't have to kill him at the end either. So while I won't be attacking the guy on twitter, he gets no pass from for how much I hate TLJ and what it to its characters.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, Luke's look at the end of TFA didn't have to be interpreted the way it was by Johnson. He didn't look particularly happy, but he didn't look particularly sad or angry either, just a kind of stern faced look that certainly didn't indicate he would be tossing his family lightsaber away.

His exile also could have been for a few reasons. Johnson didn't have to make him someone who just left his friends to suffer

No, it wasn't the only way it could've been written, but I have yet to be convinced that it wasn't the most sensible option based on the cards that were dealt in TFA.

Johnson didn't have to make him someone who just left his friends to suffer

That was Abrams.

"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

And I'm sorry, but the whole Luke being on the island to "level up" in the Force would've been poor writing. Just to be clear in that scenario Luke would've still left his friends to die because he was selfishly thinking "only I can fix it with increased space powers", meanwhile he still lets Han die and the Republic get blown to hell. That's actually even worse to Luke's character in my eyes, because it makes Luke BOTH emo and extremely arrogant and self-centered, and worst of all it makes him more of a video game character than a human being. At least what Johnson tried to do was honest to the emotional core of the situation that he was presented with, and him being cut off from the Force tracks perfectly with his complete absence in TFA. Luke blamed himself, Han says it right in TFA. For failing his best friends, his nephew, the galaxy and the legacy of the Jedi. That's a lot for one man to be grappling with. And it's a lot for a guy who once saved the galaxy as a young man, to now be an older man and see everything going back to sh** again. For him to (erroneously) conclude that the Jedi aren't helping anything when this cycle keeps repeating over and over actually...makes sense.

No, I fully realize that Johnson could've done anything he wanted. He could've had Luke take the saber from Rey, and then combine it his green lightsaber to form a sick double-bladed saber and said, "You have done well, my child." Just cause it would've been cool, doesn't mean it would've been good writing.

Now, I still would've welcomed a version of the ST with a more optimistic Luke. But that would've likely required a starting chapter that didn't base its premise on the idea that all the victories of the OT were undone, the Skywalker family was in ruins again, etc. It's like Luke experienced his own "Episode III"- type tragedy completely off-screen. It completely disrupts the rhythm of the entire saga.

We could've actually seen the New Republic and Luke's new Jedi Order to start this trilogy off. It didn't have to be in Empire-lite vs Rebellion-lite mode right from the start. Luke's whereabouts didn't have to be a mystery driving the plot. Imagine all the interesting possibilities that were left on the table due to the decision to do a New Hope remix, and you start to realize that this trilogy's biggest problems all stem back to TFA.

The reason I am harsher on TFA vs TLJ is, with TLJ I can see a filmmaker asking "how can I tell a truthful and emotional arc with this setup?" and trying his best to do that.

With TFA, it feels like a filmmaker working in concert with a corporate board of directors asking, "how can we make people forget about the prequels, use nostalgia and sell as many tickets as possible without actually having a clear idea about why we are adding 3 more chapters to a story that was definitively wrapped as of 1983?" And the more you read about the behind the scenes for TFA and Bob Iger's role in it, the more it's clear that it's essentially what happened. To be clear, it worked. One of the biggest box office hits of all time. I still think JJ did a great job making a fun, Star Wars-y feeling movie with a great new young cast and a pretty darn good Harrison Ford performance. The movie does has value for me. But it leaves so much to be desired when it comes to the mythology of Star Wars IMO.

Sorry for the rant, I have no problem if someone doesn't like TLJ but it just boggles my mind sometimes that TFA gets a complete free pass when it had the single most important job of the trilogy-- establishing why this new story that's *replacing Return of the Jedi as the ending of Star Wars* matters, and it balked on that (and Luke), leaving the rest of the trilogy struggling to catch up and fill in the holes.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

No, it wasn't the only way it could've been written, but I have yet to be convinced that it wasn't the most sensible option based on the cards that were dealt in TFA.



That was Abrams.

"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

And I'm sorry, but the whole Luke being on the island to "level up" in the Force would've been poor writing. Just to be clear in that scenario Luke would've still left his friends to die because he was selfishly thinking "only I can fix it with increased space powers", meanwhile he still lets Han die and the Republic get blown to hell. That's actually even worse to Luke's character in my eyes, because it makes Luke BOTH emo and extremely arrogant and self-centered, and worst of all it makes him more of a video game character than a human being. At least what Johnson tried to do was honest to the emotional core of the situation that he was presented with, and him being cut off from the Force tracks perfectly with his complete absence in TFA. Luke blamed himself, Han says it right in TFA. For failing his best friends, his nephew, the galaxy and the legacy of the Jedi. That's a lot for one man to be grappling with. And it's a lot for a guy who once saved the galaxy as a young man, to now be an older man and see everything going back to sh** again. For him to (erroneously) conclude that the Jedi aren't helping anything when this cycle keeps repeating over and over actually...makes sense.

No, I fully realize that Johnson could've done anything he wanted. He could've had Luke take the sabre from Rey, and then combine it his green lightsaber to form a sick double-bladed sabre and said, "You have done well, my child." Just cause it would've been cool, doesn't mean it would've been good writing.

Now, I still would've welcomed a version of the ST with a more optimistic Luke. But that would've likely required a starting chapter that didn't base its premise on the idea that all the victories of the OT were undone, the Skywalker family was in ruins again, etc. It's like Luke experienced his own "Episode III"- type tragedy completely off-screen. It completely disrupts the rhythm of the entire saga.

We could've actually seen the New Republic and Luke's new Jedi Order to start this trilogy off. It didn't have to be in Empire-lite vs Rebellion-lite mode right from the start. Luke's whereabouts didn't have to be a mystery driving the plot. Imagine all the interesting possibilities that were left on the table due to the decision to do a New Hope remix, and you start to realize that this trilogy's biggest problems all stem back to TFA.

The reason I am harsher on TFA vs TLJ is, with TLJ I can see a filmmaker asking "how can I tell a truthful and emotional arc with this setup?" and trying his best to do that.

With TFA, it feels like a filmmaker working in concert with a corporate board of directors asking, "how can we make people forget about the prequels, use nostalgia and sell as many tickets as possible without actually having a clear idea about why we are adding 3 more chapters to a story that was definitively wrapped as of 1983?" And the more you read about the behind the scenes for TFA and Bob Iger's role in it, the more it's clear that it's essentially what happened. To be clear, it worked. One of the biggest box office hits of all time. I still think JJ did a great job making a fun, Star Wars-y feeling movie with a great new young cast and a pretty darn good Harrison Ford performance. The movie does has value for me. But it leaves so much to be desired when it comes to the mythology of Star Wars IMO.

Sorry for the rant, I have no problem if someone doesn't like TLJ but it just boggles my mind sometimes that TFA gets a complete free pass when it had the single most important job of the trilogy-- establishing why this new story that's *replacing Return of the Jedi as the ending of Star Wars* matters, and it balked on that (and Luke), leaving the rest of the trilogy struggling to catch up and fill in the holes.

We have been through this before BL, and you won't be surprised to know I disagree with everything you said. Luke feeling responsible and walking away from it all could have been his initial reaction after Kylo sure. But the Luke from the ST would have soon wiped himself down and got back in the fight.

Now yes, no matter what he still left his friends to suffer, but if did that in the search for knowledge, more power, enlightenment, etc. It would have been a lot easier to grasp than him giving up and not caring what happened to the galaxy and his loved ones. Even him hiding because he had knowledge of something which could help Snoke and Kylo, like the location of Exogol, would have been better than what we got.

I just won't ever accept Luke doing what he did in TLJ for the reasons he did, it just never made sense to the character for me. Hence Hamill questioning it at every turn.

I also think, and said this 2 years before TROS hit, that the threads left at the end of TLJ left the 3rd movie little places to go. I said in 2017 we needed another movie just to bridge the gap between TLJ and the next one. I have tried my damnest to like TLJ. But every time I watch it, it just makes me angry, to the point where I have no desire to watch it ever again at this point. It just ruined the whole trilogy for me.

 

[BatLobster]

We have been through this before BL, and you won't be surprised to know I disagree with everything you said. Luke feeling responsible and walking away from it all could have been his initial reaction after Kylo sure. But the Luke from the ST would have soon wiped himself down and got back in the fight.

Now yes, no matter what he still left his friends to suffer, but if did that in the search for knowledge, more power, enlightenment, etc. It would have been a lot easier to grasp than him giving up and not caring what happened to the galaxy and his loved ones. Even him hiding because he had knowledge of something which could help Snoke and Kylo, like the location of Exogol, would have been better than what we got.

I just won't ever accept Luke doing what he did in TLJ for the reasons he did, it just never made sense to the character for me. Hence Hamill questioning it at every turn.

I also think, and said this 2 years before TROS hit, that the threads left at the end of TLJ left the 3rd movie little places to go. I said in 2017 we needed another movie just to bridge the gap between TLJ and the next one. I have tried my damnest to like TLJ. But every time I watch it, it just makes me angry, to the point where I have no desire to watch it ever again at this point. It just ruined the whole trilogy for me.

It's fine, sorry if I'm repeated treaded ground, it all kind blurs after a while. But then you also know that I completely disagree with the whole "Luke hiding to figure out how to defeat Snoke" thing. I don't buy it at all and I find it to be an even worse choice that still means Luke left Han and the Republic to die, for the reasons I just went into. Abandoning is abandoning, no matter how you try to spin it. Making Luke himself a McGuffin in film 1, only to put him on a search for another McGuffin in film 2 is...just very lazy writing to me. Tell a story about the characters, not the characters being on a neverending series of quests to find a thing that will help them find a thing.

That said, I still think TFA's choices severely limited the scope of what the sequel trilogy could've been and that's the real original sin for me. I'm happy to agree to disagree on TLJ, but I'm just saying...imagine if, Luke was actually a character in TFA? If we didn't just hit the reset button and rehash the same conflict as the OT? It could've set the trilogy on entirely different and more interesting trajectory. There was no need for Episode VII to feel so much like a reboot.

 

[fan4stic]

No, it wasn't the only way it could've been written, but I have yet to be convinced that it wasn't the most sensible option based on the cards that were dealt in TFA.

That was Abrams.

"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."

And I'm sorry, but the whole Luke being on the island to "level up" in the Force would've been poor writing. Just to be clear in that scenario Luke would've still left his friends to die because he was selfishly thinking "only I can fix it with increased space powers", meanwhile he still lets Han die and the Republic get blown to hell. That's actually even worse to Luke's character in my eyes, because it makes Luke BOTH emo and extremely arrogant and self-centered, and worst of all it makes him more of a video game character than a human being. At least what Johnson tried to do was honest to the emotional core of the situation that he was presented with, and him being cut off from the Force tracks perfectly with his complete absence in TFA. Luke blamed himself, Han says it right in TFA. For failing his best friends, his nephew, the galaxy and the legacy of the Jedi. That's a lot for one man to be grappling with. And it's a lot for a guy who once saved the galaxy as a young man, to now be an older man and see everything going back to sh** again. For him to (erroneously) conclude that the Jedi aren't helping anything when this cycle keeps repeating over and over actually...makes sense.

No, I fully realize that Johnson could've done anything he wanted. He could've had Luke take the sabre from Rey, and then combine it his green lightsaber to form a sick double-bladed sabre and said, "You have done well, my child." Just cause it would've been cool, doesn't mean it would've been good writing.

Now, I still would've welcomed a version of the ST with a more optimistic Luke. But that would've likely required a starting chapter that didn't base its premise on the idea that all the victories of the OT were undone, the Skywalker family was in ruins again, etc. It's like Luke experienced his own "Episode III"- type tragedy completely off-screen. It completely disrupts the rhythm of the entire saga.

We could've actually seen the New Republic and Luke's new Jedi Order to start this trilogy off. It didn't have to be in Empire-lite vs Rebellion-lite mode right from the start. Luke's whereabouts didn't have to be a mystery driving the plot. Imagine all the interesting possibilities that were left on the table due to the decision to do a New Hope remix, and you start to realize that this trilogy's biggest problems all stem back to TFA.

The reason I am harsher on TFA vs TLJ is, with TLJ I can see a filmmaker asking "how can I tell a truthful and emotional arc with this setup?" and trying his best to do that.

With TFA, it feels like a filmmaker working in concert with a corporate board of directors asking, "how can we make people forget about the prequels, use nostalgia and sell as many tickets as possible without actually having a clear idea about why we are adding 3 more chapters to a story that was definitively wrapped as of 1983?" And the more you read about the behind the scenes for TFA and Bob Iger's role in it, the more it's clear that it's essentially what happened. To be clear, it worked. One of the biggest box office hits of all time. I still think JJ did a great job making a fun, Star Wars-y feeling movie with a great new young cast and a pretty darn good Harrison Ford performance. The movie does has value for me. But it leaves so much to be desired when it comes to the mythology of Star Wars IMO.

Sorry for the rant, I have no problem if someone doesn't like TLJ but it just boggles my mind sometimes that TFA gets a complete free pass when it had the single most important job of the trilogy-- establishing why this new story that's *replacing Return of the Jedi as the ending of Star Wars* matters, and it balked on that (and Luke), leaving the rest of the trilogy struggling to catch up and fill in the holes.

I don't give TFA a pass. I wasn't into what happened with Luke there as well. But I think TLJ exacerbated those issues, in making Luke a selfish coward who refuses to help his sister, whose seeking his help, even after his friend died. There's Abrams "Yeah, Luke sucks I guess." and then there's Johnson's "Luke REALLY sucks." One, to me, I think is more out of not considering the situation fully, while I think, to me, the other is more purposeful.

At least with Abrams I think he didn't do it on purpose and think it was vague enough for other things.

In theory I don't dislike the ideas of what was done with Luke, but think, to me, it has too much time spent on it, wasn't developed strongly, built up strongly, explored strongly, resolved strongly.

There's other options. Luke could've taken a non violence stance, as a whole. Luke could've still given up, but with a more expanded character based build up, to me.

Luke, in that idea you pointed out, also wouldn't have to had known about Han due to the shroud of the dark side, and if he did, he could've rejected going as a showcase of his learned lesson from TESB and knowing he couldn't have stopped it and have the mentality, instead of himself being the only one who can stop, but wanting to pass on the knowledge after the loss of his jedi school. Johnson may have tried to connect with a concept in TFA, but that doesn't mean I think he connected with the other movies. I think TFA left it vague enough to work on something, with not just Luke, but other things. I think TLJ was the cementer on this.

Luke's situation.

The whole jedi school being gone or with Kylo is basically said by Luke, while TFA uses second hand info from Han.Really, Luke could've protected some of the jedi and been training them there. To be fair, I don't have much of an issue with this one.

The state of the galaxy. TFA leaves it in a place of the new republic is gone, but the first order's starkiller base has been destroyed and the resistance. I think TLJ goes, "First Order's basically the Empire now and resistance is basically the rebels."

Finn's structure as a character. TFA has him get told by Han after him saying he's only for Rey, and then when Han's killed shows Finn's reaction and what I think is a look of anger at this, with Rey, I think grabbing him to snap him out it, then having him fight Kylo. I think TLJ decides that that's not really important for his character and Han's death didn't alter his situation. He's still all about saving Rey.

Yeah, Hux is an over the top character, which I think similarly on. I think TLJ goes, "Hux is a joke."

 

[BatLobster]

I don't give TFA a pass. I wasn't into what happened with Luke there as well. But I think TLJ exacerbated those issues, in making Luke a selfish coward who refuses to help his sister, whose seeking his help, even after his friend died. There's Abrams "Yeah, Luke sucks I guess." and then there's Johnson's "Luke REALLY sucks." One, to me, I think is more out of not considering the situation fully, while I think, to me, the other is more purposeful.

See, for me....this is exactly the problem I have with TFA. I respect a writer that at least grasps what he's doing and is trying to tell a meaningful story much more than one who is throwing crap at the wall in the hopes that something sticks. This is the thing that infuriates me about TFA. Just commit to an idea! Stop being so vague and wishy washy. As a viewer, I can sense that from a mile away and it becomes a big turnoff. Not to mention, it's extremely careless to the Star Wars legacy to "accidentally" write Luke this way just because you can't figure out what to do with him in your movie IMO.

 

[fan4stic]

See, for me....this is exactly the problem I have with TFA. I respect a writer that at least grasps what he's doing and is trying to tell a meaningful story much more than one who is throwing crap at the wall in the hopes that something sticks. This is the thing that infuriates me about TFA. Just commit to an idea! Stop being so vague and wishy washy. As a viewer, I can sense that from a mile away and it becomes a big turnoff. Not to mention, it's extremely careless to the Star Wars legacy to "accidentally" write Luke this way just because you can't figure out what to do with him in your movie IMO.

I'm not talking about respect. By I think I sympathize more with someone who does something incidentally, instead of purposefully. Vague or not, I think TLJ didn't have it well constructed, as is.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It's fine, sorry if I'm repeated treaded ground, it all kind blurs after a while. But then you also know that I completely disagree with the whole "Luke hiding to figure out how to defeat Snoke" thing. I don't buy it at all and I find it to be an even worse choice that still means Luke left Han and the Republic to die, for the reasons I just went into. Abandoning is abandoning, no matter how you try to spin it. Making Luke himself a McGuffin in film 1, only to put him on a search for another McGuffin in film 2 is...just very lazy writing to me. Tell a story about the characters, not the characters being on a neverending series of quests to find a thing that will help them find a thing.

That said, I still think TFA's choices severely limited the scope of what the sequel trilogy could've been and that's the real original sin for me. I'm happy to agree to disagree on TLJ, but I'm just saying...imagine if, Luke was actually a character in TFA? If we didn't just hit the reset button and rehash the same conflict as the OT? It could've set the trilogy on entirely different and more interesting trajectory. There was no need for Episode VII to feel so much like a reboot.

I have to agree with @fan4stic on this one. And yeah I know you disagree right back. But Luke didn’t have to be there hiding to figure out how to defeat Snoke either, there are plenty of other reasons he could have been there which would have made his abandoning easier to swallow and understand. He couldn’t have been protecting something, seeking guidance from the first Jedi, training a/some of the remaining ids while keeping them from Snoke, he could have been trapped there. Plenty of other ways Johnson could have gone without upsetting the fans and Hamill himself, but in his arrogance he shut out the questions and criticisms and sentence his own way instead.

That’s without even getting into what he did with Rey, Finn and Poe. Not to mention introducing DJ, a pointless character all in all. And Rose, who was more concerned with saving animals than the resistance (I say this as an animal lover BTW), and whose story mirrored Finn’s, making her equally pointless. Don’t even get me started on Holdo. He did okay with Kylo.

While TFA was far from flawless or blameless (though Kennedy had a heavy hand in the direction it took), it left enough open for interpretation, and its main characters in a place they could grow from. TLJ regressed all of that for me.

 

[BatLobster]

I'm not talking about respect. By I think I sympathize more with someone who does something incidentally, instead of purposefully. Vague or not, I think TLJ didn't have it well constructed, as is.

Whether you want to call it respect, or sympathize with, I'm basically talking about the same thing. I don't sympathize with a filmmaker and studio being given the power to set the course for the sequel trilogy of Star Wars, and having so few original ideas that they 'incidentally' ended up creating a quasi-reboot (as per Abrams, who claims TFA wasn't a reboot), and 'incidentally' constructed a narrative in which the central hero of the original trilogy was an absentee failure. Luckily, I give Abrams more credit than that and I don't think it was completely incidental. I should also clarify that I actually like the arc Luke has in TLJ. I wouldn't praise it if I merely thought it made logical sense as a continuation-- it was emotional for me and the most genuine emotion I felt from the ST as a whole easily. It was also the thing that helped justify Luke's absence from TFA for me.

The Luke thing boils down to this for me. Every single suggestion I've seen for alternative directions for Episode 8 say "Luke could've been on the island for *insert plot device here*.

Johnson's decision was to make it a character-driven reason instead of a more surface level, plot-driven reason that would merely be there to preserve Luke in amber the way we remember him. But mythologically, we're meeting Luke at a later point in his life after things have gone horribly wrong. It doesn't fit for him to be the same heroic character. That ship had sailed once TFA hit the reset button and casually dismissed all the victories of the OT. There's an extremely dark undertone to what TFA actually implies, despite the fun and breezy tone. TFA's entire existence is there to tell us that Return of the Jedi didn't amount to much in the end. That's some heavy sh**! You've got to own that. It's getting more into the late-age King Arthur territory that Johnson references.

I will always feel that it was a stronger choice than the alternatives, and I appreciate it enough that it helps me forgive some of the other flaws in TLJ. Filmmaking is about making choices and having a point of view on the story you're telling. We can't say that Rian wasn't true to his point of view, and that is really all you have as a filmmaker. Once you start playing the guessing game of "what will the fans want?", you're dead in the water. Because that can all too often backfire.

And I even applaud TROS for some of the same reasons, even though it's trying too hard to please everyone. At least it did make some choices and took some swings. They decided that Rey is a Palpatine, and at least committed to that idea. You don't have to like it, but I can appreciate that JJ finally said..."this is the story we're telling." For better or for worse.

 

[henzINNIT]

And I even applaud TROS for some of the same reasons, even though it's trying too hard to please everyone. At least it did make some choices and took some swings. They decided that Rey is a Palpatine, and at least committed to that idea. You don't have to like it, but I can appreciate that JJ finally said..."this is the story we're telling." For better or for worse.

I can't applaud it for that to be honest. 'Rey is a Palpatine' is pretty much the only thing he committed to in the film, even though it was already answered in 8, and the new answer is a whole new box of mysteries.

Rian could've asked JJ not to end it on a cliffhanger, not have Finn be in a coma, but still injured and unable to travel. I've read he was up for asking JJ to have R2D2 instead of BB8, no floating rocks around Luke and such. It could've been resolved or changed.

Rian wasnt backed into making all the choices he made. He had options. Luke can still be a tortured figure. It doesn't have to be the way it was written. Finn can not go with Rey. It doesn't mean his character had to be used the way it was.

The distraught look can be about something else. Personally I think I remember the distraught looked being more of pain and sadness than I think TLJ developed at the beginning, which I remember being more angry or something.How is that different from his character being in a coma either way? Rian could've asked JJ not to end Finn in a coma.

So now Johnson is to blame for not changing enough of JJ's film?

He did have options. I think he did pretty well, personally.

 

[BatLobster]

I can't applaud it for that to be honest. 'Rey is a Palpatine' is pretty much the only thing he committed to in the film, even though it was already answered in 8, and the new answer is a whole new box of mysteries.

I get that, but personally I think a final statement on Rey's lineage was necessary when he framed the trilogy as a mystery surrounding her identity. And for all of TLJ's bold choices with Luke, when it comes to Rey I don't think the "they were nobody" reveal was something that felt all that set in stone. We don't even really get to see Rey grapple with it much, as she's able to pretty quickly shrug it off and save the day in the 3rd act. There was still something big that felt unresolved with her, IMO. I like Rian's explanation that the reveal is more about her having to come to terms with the fact that she won't be able to rely on a bloodline to define her. Which in fairness, does not contradict the idea of her coming from a bloodline of the worst evil in the galaxy, which is why I can appreciate the Palpatine reveal as a follow-up to TLJ.