Comics Get ready people, JMS and Joe Q are planning ANOTHER Spider-Man event

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Yeah, Herr, I liked th' Clone Saga. I even started a thread. That was more sarcasm mixed with a serious answer.

And you need to get a life 'cause only a complete and utter pig-****er would go look up a dictionary definition then write a novel about why THEY'RE right, instead of maybe pointin' out how people may be MISTAKEN. I left it at that 'cause you said it; people know yer a moronic *******, so was no reason to go back into it. But if a novel-sized response is all yer receptive too, then fine...I'll elaborate. Yer views have no merit 'cause yer a self-serving egomaniac and frankly, people rather laugh at you than consider takin' you seriously. Drop th' holier than thou attitude and MAYBE people will give a **** what you think. And th' best part is, you probably don't even REALIZE it!

Lose th' arrogance, pal. Yer **** stinks like everyone else's.

 

[shinlyle]

You forgot:

5) Peter Parker is an unappreciated scientific genuis, as evident from the fact that he invented his web-shooters, spider-tracers, etc. The reason why he wasn't in some gifted program was because his aunt and uncle were too poor to send him to some specialized private school where his talents could flourish so HE HAD TO GO to a public school. Plus because of his being Spider-Man, he couldn't be the full-fledged scientist that he wanted to be, but sacrificed that dream for the greater good of being Spider-Man.

6) He has a sense of humor, often self-depricating, designed to throw his enemies off their game and to help boost his own confidence.

Other than that, the rest of your analysis is spot on.

I knew someone here would get my back.

 

[shinlyle]

Yeah, Herr, I liked th' Clone Saga. I even started a thread. That was more sarcasm mixed with a serious answer.

And you need to get a life 'cause only a complete and utter pig-****er would go look up a dictionary definition then write a novel about why THEY'RE right, instead of maybe pointin' out how people may be MISTAKEN. I left it at that 'cause you said it; people know yer a moronic *******, so was no reason to go back into it. But if a novel-sized response is all yer receptive too, then fine...I'll elaborate. Yer views have no merit 'cause yer a self-serving egomaniac and frankly, people rather laugh at you than consider takin' you seriously. Drop th' holier than thou attitude and MAYBE people will give a **** what you think. And th' best part is, you probably don't even REALIZE it!

Lose th' arrogance, pal. Yer **** stinks like everyone else's.

Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.

Herr Logan is a hot-headed prick, but he's a good friend, too. I've not always been on the same side of the argument as he is, but he's always been cordial and respective of my opinion and those with whom he is debating, so long as their attitudes and responses warrant him to be so. He's a good guy, and I've not seen him be anything but playfully offensive with you. He hasn't been as mean as he can be to you. He often reserves that for those who don't feel the same way as he does. You are actually on the same side of the argument (wanting Spidey back to the way he was), but you're letting a minuscule and irrelevant point turn this thread, which WAS civil, into a flame war.

When people make mistakes, he corrects them. I often do the same, and I am certain that I have had posters on these boards leave responses about me similar to the one you just made about HL. I just didn't see anything in the past few pages of this thread that required this harsh of a response from you, man.

That being said, I'll stand back and let Herr Logan have his way with you, as I'm sure he's probably posted a response while I was typing mine.

I just hate watching people that I consider to be friends tear each other apart.

 

[roach]

*looks at Wolverine25th while eating popcorn*

 

[stillanerd]

I knew someone here would get my back.

No problem.

Other things that just occurred to me:

7) Even though he can be pushed to the edge, in no way does Spider-Man cross the line and kill someone because he knows that by doing so he is no better than the kind of scum who took the life of his uncle Ben. Technically, he's strong enough to kill a normal person with just his fists, but he intentionally pulls his punches. Plus he doesn't need weapons, especially foot-long poison tipped bone spears.

8) Often times he doubts himself and his own abilities, even to the point that he's considering quitting. But he always manages to pull through and go on because it's the right thing to do not because he has a death wish.

9) His powers are derived from psuedo-science due to a irradiated spider biting him, which caused its DNA to intermix with Peter's body chemistry via its venom. They are not mystical or totemistic in nature and the spider that bit Peter was not some magical servant of the Great Weaver or Anasai or whatever mythical new age spider-god that was stupid enough to walk into radioactive rays.

If anyone can think of a #10, then these "Ten Commandments of Spider-Man" can then be set it stone and sent to the Marvel offices and put in a place where Joe Q, JMS, and the rest of the Hollywood cronies at Marvel are forced to walk by it everyday. Or better yet, can be used to club them over the head repeatedly until they get it, preferably by Stan "The Man" Lee and Steve Ditko themselves.

 

[shinlyle]

No problem.

Other things that just occurred to me:

7) Even though he can be pushed to the edge, in no way does Spider-Man cross the line and kill someone because he knows that by doing so he is no better than the kind of scum who took the life of his uncle Ben. Technically, he's strong enough to kill a normal person with just his fists, but he intentionally pulls his punches. Plus he doesn't need weapons, especially foot-long poison tipped bone spears.

8) Often times he doubts himself and his own abilities, even to the point that he's considering quitting. But he always manages to pull through and go on because it's the right thing to do not because he has a death wish.

9) His powers are derived from psuedo-science due to a irradiated spider biting him, which caused its DNA to intermix with Peter's body chemistry via its venom. They are not mystical or totemistic in nature and the spider that bit Peter was not some magical servant of the Great Weaver or Anasai or whatever mythical new age spider-god that was stupid enough to walk into radioactive rays.

If anyone can think of a #10, then these "Ten Commandments of Spider-Man" can then be set it stone and sent to the Marvel offices and put in a place where Joe Q, JMS, and the rest of the Hollywood cronies at Marvel are forced to walk by it everyday. Or better yet, can be used to club them over the head repeatedly until they get it, preferably by Stan "The Man" Lee and Steve Ditko themselves.

10) He wears a classic Red & Blue costume. He may switch to an alternate for an issue or two, but he will always wear the Red & Blues. This is how it was in the beginning, and this is how it shall be in the end. There will always be other costumes for him to wear, but two things should be remembered when it comes to new costumes:

a) It will only be temporary...
b) it will neverreplace the Reb & Blues....for that is the costume that pops into our heads when we hear "Spider-man".

 

[onceasaint]

Read the Peter Parker: Spider Man issue called "Maybe Next Year" (I forget the issue number) by Paul Jenkins. It's a fantastic Peter Parker and Uncle Ben story. It's my very favorite Spider-Man comic.

I wish Jenkins was writing ASM, or at least still on a Spidey title.

I'll see if I can find it. Sometimes stories where Peter isnt even doing anything that amazing or spectacular seem pretty entertaining to me. Not all the time, but every now and then its fun to see something other than the scariest villain eeeevverr.

 

[stillanerd]

10) He wears a classic Red & Blue costume. He may switch to an alternate for an issue or two, but he will always wear the Red & Blues. This is how it was in the beginning, and this is how it shall be in the end. There will always be other costumes for him to wear, but two things should be remembered when it comes to new costumes:

a) It will only be temporary...
b) it will neverreplace the Reb & Blues....for that is the costume that pops into our heads when we hear "Spider-man".

So, baring heavenly fire to carve these "10 Commandment of Spider-Man" who here knows anything about stone masonry?

 

[roach]

So, baring heavenly fire to carve these "10 Commandment of Spider-Man" who here knows anything about stone masonry?

I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night

 

[shinlyle]

I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night

Best.
Comedic.
Timing.
Ever.

 

[Gregatron]

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Stan the man himself the one who first married MJ and Peter (in his newspaper strip I believe)? You can hardly say it goes against the character when the creator himself had it happen.

I do see where your arguement is coming from, but I've always seen the marriage as a good thing. I know a lot of people would probably lose interest if they disposed of MJ, including myself.

In regards to Joe Q...... wtf? I'm sure a lot more 9 year olds can understand the concept of marriage much better than what we've seen in The Other and all this Iron Spidey stuff. My ten year old brother is a perfect example; he loves comics, when he can get a hold of them, and also loves Spider-Man (and Iron Man for that matter). Yet even he finds the idea of Iron Man making Spidey a suit kind of dumb, and to be honest he thinks almost everything in the Marvel world is cool.

Stan wanted them married in the newspaper strip because the basis conceits of a newspaper strip would be easier to work with if Spidey had a wife/confidante.

But Jim Shooter insisted that they get married in the actual comics, too (as opposed to DeFalco/Frenz's "MJ leaves Peter at the altar" story that they'd been planning).

 

[Gregatron]

Spyder, I think you should realize you're arguin' with a guy who thinks a comic can't have at th' same time...let's see if I get this right:

Simple, basic entertainment.
Slavish devotion to continuity/details.
Respect for the characters' history.
Consistency of character and theme.
Innovation/change.

In his little world, it's one or none, which shows how limited his scope is.

Marriage doesn't steal from a character's core, it's a DEVELOPMENT. These are serialized dramas and over time things have to progress. You can't read th' same **** that was goin' on in 1962. "It's time for the spring formal, but will Peter Parker make his date on time or will he be...shattered by the Shocker?!"

That may work just fine in th' world of Riverdale, but Spidey is supposed to take place in th' real world. His popularity comes from his EVERYMAN appeal. Underneath that mask, he could be ANYONE. He had problems where heroes were all perfect. You say Spidey isn't supposed to be relatable...on what ****ing planet? THAT is th' whole core concept behind th' character. Yes, he started out as th' first teenaged superhero, but what kept th' fans was th' fact people could see his life and go "Hey! That could be me!" And guess what? In life, people get MARRIED.

Also, 1962? Really? Half this stuff today...no, screw today. Half th' stuff from th' 90s wouldn't've even made it past th' comics code. 1962 is a different era with different sensibilities. You CAN'T exchange th' two. Stan Lee's stuff was great back in 1962, but in 1994 you have Tom Defalco an' company. Again, progression. Evolution.

And this **** today is just that; ****. It's change fer th' sake of change 'cause these guys don't have a clue.

'Nuff said!

Okay, okay, I had low blood sugar the day I posted that poll. Leave it alone.

And you illuminate a problem. PETER PARKER is behind Spider-Man's mask. But today's readers/writers want THEMSELVES (and all their realistic problems) behind the mask.

 

[Gregatron]

I said recently in another thread:


Bringing back Ben with the notion: "Peter still learned that With.." diminishes Peter's origin and 40+ year history, making it no more important or significant than the following: Aunt May's [actress'] "death," the House of M universe, and/or any other gimmick or event story where the hero "carries with him" the after affects of things that happened, or lives lived, but not really.

It would be no different than the writers having Peter awaken the morning after the spider bite, having been shown the future that awaited him if he failed to use his spider-god given powers wisely. Peter still remembers that whole history, after all. He still knows all those lessons of life. Does it matter that is was all a dream? Does it matter if the entire Spider-Man mythos was a really long "What If" as long as there's a lasting impact?

Marvel is essentially telling us: "The history of these characters, the 2,000 stories before yesterday and the themes of the aforementioned no longer matter. All that matters is that you and the character remember something like that occuring. Now, buy our repackaged, star-creator-customized characters and shut up."

Honestly, I've no emotions or money I'm willing invest in today's creator owned copies of Spider-Man and his cast. Spidey has been "fixed" so thoroughly and his world "rocked" and "torn apart" so completely that Marvel has, finally, accomplished a spectacular feat! After 20 years of following the life and adventures of Spider-Man, I no. longer. care.

Bringing Ben back permanently? Fine. Gwen's been living as a troll the last 10 years under GW bridge? Ok. MJ has cancer, A.I.D.S. and chronic arthritis? Sure. Spidey's outing himself as Peter Parker and the one TRUE Hobgoblin? There's somebody with a credit card and an "I heart Morlun" T-Shirt that'll pick up the trade. As for me, I've already seen, read, and plan to discuss the greatest Spider-Man stories ever written -- for years to come.

No amount of BS, baggage, pseudomysticism, necrophilia etc., can undo the spirit, worth or intent of those stories. Alex Ross' beautiful, and sadly necessary, rendition of Spider-Man protecting Gwen from ravenous hands represents a certain fact. The fact that thousands of us know and take to heart what Peter, Gwen and the mythos were and had actually been about for all those years. Its true themes. Readers like Captivated, who began collecting Spidey in more recent times, rather than as a 7 year old like myself, very clearly understand those things, as well. No amount of present day pomp and shoddy writing can undo the original intent and quality of those tales.

Marvel has a "screw you" attitude towards fans like us -- those who refuse to silently ignore the inherent contradictions in today's stories in light of the rich history that came before. Interestingly, I never see the writers articulating their "extremely valid" points and "solutions" for Spidey's "ills" on these forums. F.Y.I. JQ, JMS, PAD: screw your cheap, magical, soul-eating, molted side-kick, killer version of Spider-Man. I reject it. I reject your "creative" approaches and ability, and I reject your poorly plotted books. 'Nuff said.




If one man's trash is another man's treasure, Marvel will never go bankrupt again.

All that sounds just about right.

 

[stillanerd]

Stan wanted them married in the newspaper strip because the basis conceits of a newspaper strip would be easier to work with if Spidey had a wife/confidante.

But Jim Shooter insisted that they get married in the actual comics, too (as opposed to DeFalco/Frenz's "MJ leaves Peter at the altar" story that they'd been planning).

Well the idea is that if it MJ can be Peter's wife/confidante in the newspaper strip, why not in the comics and thus have a little cohesion? Even so, the whole "MJ leaves Peter at the altar" idea could've been done, but it just would've been a retread of what Marv Wolfman did, although I'm sure DeFlaco could've used that angle to have Peter and MJ take it slow for awhile to explore them trying to rebuild their relationship again, instead of the whole rushed feeling it had.

PETER: "MJ, I know I just had sex with the Black Cat. But once you showed up and caught me by surprise, I realize now your the one for me. What do you say we get married?
MJ: Ummm....

 

[Gregatron]

I'm just sticking around fer Civil War. Once that's over, Spidey go bye-bye.

Then Marvel wins again.

 

[Gregatron]

I read the article in my LCS and put back all my Marvel books....I cant believe this.
And for the person who believes Peter should still be 15 fighting crime...Welcome to the Hype J.Q.
Sorry but I like it when people grow up. When Robin became Nightwing, when Wally became the Flash...these were moments when the hero grew up.
Peter marrying MJ was a natural progression of the story. This is the one thing that truely makes Peter "real" for me. Real people grow up and get married.

SUPERHEROES are not real people.

The are mythic, timeless fiction.

 

[Gregatron]

How is he an everyman?

Peter Parker is a genius, an orphan, obsessed with doing the right thing, and consistently suffers from depression and anxiety. Considering how the majority of posters here act toward others who express depressed and anxious feelings and those who ask for help, they are unequivocally not in any way as moral as Peter Parker (we're not talking risking lives, we're talking about common decency and compassion) and they can't seem to relate with psychologically troubled people. People here don't seem to like people that complain. Parker complained constantly. It's no wonder there are so few real Spider-Man fans around here.

The "everyman" argument has always been completely invalid. There's absolutely nothing to back it up, and if anything, Quesada is trying to move things toward making Peter into an everyman. In other words, Peter should not be an everyman, but rather the way he was written toward the beginning of his career.

Exactly.

And remember, Sam Raimi gave Peter organic web-shooters in the movies because HE, RAIMI HIMSELF, was not smart enough to build devices like that at age 15.

 

[roach]

SUPERHEROES are not real people.

The are mythic, timeless fiction.

yet if you want the character to seem like he is one of us then he needs to grow. People grow in fiction all the time.
Luke Skywalker goes from farm boy to Jedi master
Buffy goes from cheerleader into master vampire hunter

 

[Gregatron]

You know, your not quite as in the right as you constantly seem to think, (but I'm only pointing out this simple fact.)

Stan Lee has always been the man to age Spider-Man, that's one of the main things he always intended to push forward.

Of course, Stan made the change for everything to slow down, but in the 80's, Stan was the one to marry Pete to MJ in the Spidey newspaper strip. This proved so popular, they married him off in the comics too.

Also, this mess you keep talking about doesn't really exist. There was no mess, until this totem thing, sins past, boring stories, new avengers thing, lack of supporting cast, blah, blah, happened. It wasn't that long ago that Spidey was experiencing another one of his heydays. Paul Jenkins was great, and proved very popular. JMS, at first was superb, and injected new life into Spidey, (at first,) and the debut of SSM got tons of people talking, and the Millar's run of MKSM was a hell of a lot of fun, and had great sales. They turned all the s**t of the clone saga around, and made Spider-Man a popular franchise again! This is fact.

Spidey WAS in the right path after the clone saga. The early Jenkins/JMS issues are still wildly popular. They WERE considers saviours after the clone saga.

and before the clone saga things were great, Spider-Man reached one of the all time highs of his popularity in the late 80's/early 90's. His books surpassed all sales of Batman and the X-Men, during the time where X-Men was gold, Burtons Batman was in cinemas, and DKR and Batman: Year One was all the rage.

So maybe YOUR fave era was the college years, but to MILLIONS of people around the world, Spidey stories were much more interesting afterwards. Spideys all time best sales were AFTER he married MJ. And when I say sales, I mean what percentage he takes of the comic market as a whole. We all know comics don't sell like they did in the early 90's! lol

So we had a great high during the 80's, which went on until the Clone Saga. And then there was a great high JUST after the turn of the century, and 5 years later, it's gone to s**t again. The problem is, what writers are doing now, they're NOT leaving 'back doors,' to the storylines. Leaving no easy retcon for some SERIOUSLY controversial storylines. This is stupid, if you know you''re onto gold, that's different. If you know, that there is a LARGE chance a story may backfire, you leave a back door. There were tons of back doors with the clone saga, that's how Spidei survived it fairly easily

Even Stan made mistakes, largely because he underestimated the longevity of the characters.

The first strss marks appeared when Peter went to college. Then Gwen died, and that created a major "aging tentpole" moment in Spider-history that writer after writer would refer to. The marriage ground out many aspects of Spidey's originality/popularity, and aged him even more, and the Clone Saga mucked about with continuity badly.

Now, that said, there were still fantastic stories told throughout the years.

But the Clone Saga was, perhaps, the point of no return.

And the "saviors" turned out to be the ones to completely bury and defile the mythos, perhaps permanently.

 

[dan1]

If Spider-Man comics were not the alternative-continuity, piss on the past hooey that they have become under JMS and JoeQ, and Marvel decided to kill MJ off, without telling you it was going to possibly happen, it would piss off 1/2 the freaking fans......

BUT....We'd all have to accept it and move on and see what would happen next.

Fact is JMS and JoeQ have mistreated Spider-Man comics and its fans so poorly, that killing MJ or even these two getting to be the ones to break them up, is uncalled for and is only being done as another shock value tactic for more sales and another notch on their belt for most major changes to Spider-Man. If they had put ANY effort into upholding continuity, and that means not only the timeline, but the characters personality growth, supporting cast, etc, etc. then maybe a major life altering event of theirs' would become a classic, but we know better now, don't we? And that's not really a question.

These two pudding heads have done enough. Is anyone at Marvel, worth their salt, going to do something about this?

 

[Gregatron]

Well, that may be your opinion, but read ANY interview, watch AND documentary, or ANY books studying the cases and philosophies on comic books as an art form, and that's what Spider-Man has always been noted as, the super-hero worlds' everyman

Stan Lee himself has always said, that he tried to make Spidey as REALISTIC as possible, as HUMANLY relatable a super hero comic could be, and to this day, he beieves that is the reason Spider-Man is still so popular. He wanted readers to think, hey! That's JUST like me! You have to accept the fact, that we are reading fiction on a fantastic level, so certain things need to be stretched for it to apply to the comic world. So a clever guy, a nerd, becomes a borderline genius, it makes sense otherwise how the hell is he supposed to save the city against Doc Ock! Lol It also gives something for people to aim towards

You may not think if him as an everyman, but millions of people around the world disagree with you, (2nd time I've said that in a row! Lol!) Sorry, that is just a fact, I have tons of books/articles/DVD's/and just general info I could throw you towards if you need to see

Spider-Man is "the superhero who could be you" in that he is a working-class joe who deals with real-life issues (like school, rent, and work).

But Peter Parker is just as mythic and heroic as any other superhero. He is us, and he is BETTER than us at the same time.

Yet these "fans" just keep coming along, wanting to drag him down to their level, morally, intellectually, etc.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Okay, I can forgive ya fer th' blood sugar thing.

And Marvel doesn't win, I'm interested in th' story. If I coulda bought all th' Infinite Crisis books I woulda, just so happens I already buy all th' Marvels so I can wait until CW is over before I begin to massacre my list.

 

[Gregatron]

Here's the definition of "everyman."

Thus, I am right. That was much too easy.


Peter Parker is not an ordinary person. It's not my fault that all those people giving interviews and writing books didn't use the right word. I don't give a damn about what they have to say if they can't use the English language properly.

Yes, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko did create a "realistic" character in terms of psychology and behavior, but that does not make him an everyman. Not even close. What, you think there aren't real people who obsess over doing the right thing and suffer from the anxiety and self-pity that Spider-Man does? By the way, Stan Lee is also known to have said that he wrote his characters so that he would like them. Especially Spider-Man, since that last issue of 'Amazing Fantasy' was supposed to be his last story for Marvel (he was going to quit and he wrote it for himself, not because he thought it would sell).

Judging from all the people who insist that the movies were faithful representations of the comics, it's pretty obvious that they do not truly relate to the character. They seem to think that all there is to Spider-Man is a longing romance for Mary Jane, and even that wasn't true in the comics in any similar way to the movie. They didn't grow up together, it wasn't love at first sight, and he didn't spend all his time obsessing over her. Spider-Man was witty, self-aware of his flaws and inner conflicts, and an excellent character that intelligent people could fully appreciate. Here's a big newsflash for you: Stan Lee is smarter than most people on Earth. I don't need an IQ test to see that he's got very high verbal intelligence and that he understands tge practical aspects of human psychology. It's all right there in the early comics for the world to see. It's because people are too damn ignorant to both see the big picture and analyze the material critically that they support things like the watered-down, vapid version of Spider-Man in the movies and all of the events JQ and JMS have engineered that have brought us to this lowpoint in Spider-Man history. Further proof of this ignorance is that you all buy into this "everyman" crap. I have no doubt in my mind that if Stan Lee ever used that word to describe Spider-Man, he was either talking down (not in a malicious way) to the people who don't know how to use that word, or he's under the delusion that most people are as smart as he and Peter Parker (not in a scientific way, but the other types of intelligence he showed) are. Stan had and still has a magnificent vocabulary, so don't tell me he was as ignorant as the rest of these plebeians when it came to that.

Yes, Stan Lee can relate to him, and clearly lots of other people did as well. Here's another thing you may want to consider: Spider-Man is a character who appeals to lots of different people for lots of different reasons. You know how 'The Simpsons' appeals to smart people and idiots alike? That's because it works on different levels. Spider-Man is the same. Even if you can't keep up with the intellectual, psychological and philosophical content from those early days, he still makes some quips that even morons can understand and find funny, and he's one of the most dynamic action heroes ever. His combination of powers and gadgets are superior to other heroes, so as action comics go, Spider-Man is way up there. Different levels, different dimensions. That's what makes Spider-Man so popular and "relatable." I see proof on these boards every day that a huge chunk of so-called "fans" don't understand anything about Spider-Man other than "He does good things" and "He jumps real nice" and other such obvious, banal, puerile observations. No, nobody says those things in those words, but that's what they recognize. I don't give much credit to the intelligence and analytic prowess of most posters here, and I've proven right every single day with the thousands of empty platitudes "change is good," "it has to be 'realistic,'" "I have faith in Raimi," "JMS saved Spider-Man," and other such nonsense worthy of troglodytes.

Still reading? Here's hoping you understood most of it.


And don't bother calling me "arrogant" or "condescending." That's like saying I have a keyboard. Everyone knows it, and nobody is interested in hearing something that obvious.

Amen, mein Herr.


In terms of the movies, it seems as long as the characters have the same names as their comic book inspirations, but everything else is changed, then that's somehow "okay".


As I've said in the past, Spider-Man used to be the most well-defined character in comics, in terms of his morality, intellect, personality, etc.

Now, he's become fractured into so many versions, and has become so generic, that he's a total stranger to me.

 

[Infinity9999x]

well there's still Ultimate....

 

[Gregatron]

It all comes down to this:

Either Spider-Man is infinite or finite.


If he is infinite, then the initial conception of the character should last forever. He should remain eternally frozen in time (only topical reference will change), with nothing but that glorious core concept carrying him along, and only the illusion of change spicing things up from time to time. Readers go along with him for a few years, then grow up and move on to more "adult" entertainment (unless they can still enjoy the material without forgetting the conceits of the character and the genre). New readers then come aboard and experience the character just as the older readers left him. Spider-Man thus remains an immortal, eternal symbol of youth and vitality, one which generation after generation can enjoy.


If he is finite, on the other hand, then he will age and change and grow. He will learn life lessons. He will have major changes in his life. He will develop, and get married, and have kids, and eventually die. For, if he is indeed finite, if he is indeed truly "one of us", if he is someone who "must grow and change", then we must acknowledge the fact that there will be an end to his adventures in the future, as he ages and changes and dies.


In my opinion, those who insist, nay, demand that he (and other characters) be finite, those who demand he age and change, those who think writing for kids means "dumbing down" (juvenile fiction need not be childish or dumbed down, y'know), those who demand that fictional SUPERHEROES age and change and swear and have sex and kill, are living vicariously through comic books. They are trying to turn a product written in layers for all ages to enjoy into a product that will appeal to them, and only them, perhaps so that they will seem "sophisticated" to their peers, who would ordinarily laugh at them for reading "kiddie books". So they worship "professionals" who exhibit such "sophistication ("sophistication", which is, in fact, very immature and grotesque).