Comics Get ready people, JMS and Joe Q are planning ANOTHER Spider-Man event

[JesusOfNazarath]

GAH

Then that would mean getting rid of all the AWESOME Daredevil continuity, which would suck hard core.

 

[Gregatron]

GAH

Then that would mean getting rid of all the AWESOME Daredevil continuity, which would suck hard core.

As fun as all the Miller stuff, in particular, was, it was still a "stealth reboot" of the character. And the current stuff is a complete retooling.

 

[JesusOfNazarath]

Yeah, but its still apart of his character and would suck to "get rid of it", just for Spider-Man's sake.

 

[stillanerd]

GAH

Then that would mean getting rid of all the AWESOME Daredevil continuity, which would suck hard core.

Although it definately retcons Kevin's Smith's run on Daredevil making Karen Page and Mysterio alive again, that's a good example of the nightmare a "time travel/reset" would cause. Just what cut-off point would you use without ruining some of the runs that were spectacular like Frank Miller's run on Daredevil which pretty much defined the character? And if you limit the time-travel idea to Spider-Man alone, it just messes up continuity too. At least having the cut-off point prior to the Secret Wars, while not perfect, could lessen it to some extent.

 

[Gregatron]

Yeah, but its still apart of his character and would suck to "get rid of it", just for Spider-Man's sake.

We may focus on Spider-Man around here, but many other characters are in this kind of mess just as deep. In particular, guys like the Hulk, Iron Man, and the FF.

 

[Dyeathrose]

This is the impass we are at. The changes have been so destructive and so permanent that there may well be no way back.

Today's breed of "fan" wants their "hero" to be deeply flawed, and live out the kind of power-fantasy they would enjoy, so they live vicariously through the character. They want to see the characters get into brutal fights, swear, have lots of graphic sex, and do all sorts of reprehensible things so they are more "realistic" and "easier to relate to".

They demand this with no consideration to the fact that these are fictional superheroes, emphasis on heroes. They are supposed to be better than us. Spider-Man may live in a realistic world, but he is FAR from being an "everyman".

And, being fictional superheroes printed on paper (and thus free of actors who will age and die portraying them), the characters can remain young and iconic forever, so as to appeal to future generations.

But today's breed of fan doesn't want that. They want to keep the characters all to themselves. They demand that the characters age and change along with them, so they're more "realistic" and "easier to relate to". As they move into college, and adulthood, and old age, they find it harder to relate to a youthful hero in over his head, so they insist that he be dragged into their age bracket so they won't have to give him up.

Spider-Man as an experienced, adult superhero living the high life totally defeats the purpose of the character. It destroys what made him special and unique. He has become just another generic superhero.

UGH.

I agree with you considerably, though I have a bit of a different view on seeing Peter grow up and age, but to follow along with his audience is greedy; it's not nessicary.

From a writer's standpoint, I can understand wanted to make a character flawed, as have the perfect being would become obnoxious without some form of depth to go into. With that said, riddling a character with angst and constant problems that are "life-threatening" is just pathetic writing. I'm thinking about the last few arcs, and all I can come up with is to give Spider-man a vacation.

For Peter, I think the reason he's viewed as an "everyman" is perhaps how he got his power; by an accident. A kid who lived with his aunt and uncle got bit (albeit by a radioactive spider), and now has powers. To me, it has a certain appeal to it that says anyone can make something of themselves. It feels more down to earth than (in example) a meteor or just being born with the powers. Peter made his webbing, utliized his own power after learning a life lesson and started doing it for the greater good. No matter how it's written, I think that could still be extracted from it.

While I can understand finding similar traits to compare oneself to the character, totally relating to him could never happen, no matter what they put in there. For the medium that these particular comics are presented as, they are meant to be esacpe-fantasy, where you don't need to worry about all the swearing and graphic sex and violence, right? Brightly colored spandex wearing men going out and wielding supernatural abilities and tools at one another where in the end, the hero will be victorious; doesn't seem too realistic to me.

I think I'm thinking more outloud right now than anything, but at least I'm getting to see my thoughts actually outlined coherrently, and even better worded by other people.

I think a strong part of this is the "copy of a copy of a copy" phenomenon.

Most fans (young fans, especially) have only the recent stories/trades to reference, many of which either:

1. Rewrite history.

2. "Tilt the mirror".

3. Don't reference history.

Also, there are 20 different versions of character running around, from Ultimate to the movies to the cartoons to Marvel Age, each with their respective creators' "new spin on the material".

Back in the day, for the most part, writers built on what was established, and there were plenty of recaps to characters' origins, etc.

These days, so many characters have been "off-model" for so long, errors and "new takes" have supplanted the originals. These "new spins" and retcons have been branded onto so many characters, and there are so many versions of so many characters, that there's no consistencyand no solid ground anymore.


Eddie Brock was a photographer for the Bugle before he became Venom, and had cancer?

Doc Ock was a frendly guy taken over by Evil Tenticles?

Norman Osborn was a ruthless master planner in command of all events in Peter's life since the start?

Gwen Stacy was...? (Well, you know).


The list goes on and on, not just for Spidey.

Bruce Banner was crazy and an MPD case before he became the Hulk?

Iron Man is an alcoholic?

Magneto is an old friend of Charles Xavier's?

Even if it's not even directed towards me (more of my age range, not me personally), it still breaks my heart to think that might be the truth. Everytime I hear something about backissues, I get the vibe that Marvel wants to make new readers feel dirty for reading them. "Here, have Ultimate! And this new twist on the origin! It's the fresh one, so you don't need to see that silly Essentials rag." I'm a stickler for art, and I do love looking through comics for artists that I enjoy, but I'd give that up for the old Lee-Ditko, Lee-Romita days in an instant. For all the gimicks, etc, I'd love to read just a solid one issue where it gets resolved and everything is back to psuedo-normal.

 

[Gregatron]

Another good quote today, but if I reveal who said it, they'll only get bashed. So I'll let the words speak for themselves (please note that the bold section is the author's doing, not mine, and that the bolding not mean that the author supports the current state of Spider-Man):

Not only is every issue the first issue for somebody, but that "first" issue is, many times, the best issue. For me, as many of you know, FF 5 will always be my favorite. It was the first one I bought.
So, for many who came in late to the Spider-Man mythos, there's nothing inherently wrong with Peter Parker the successful photojournalist married to a supermodel. That's who Spider-Man is ---- to them.

But that's a long way from the character created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. A long way from the core elements that made the characters so astonishingly successful. So, when we weigh the shape of the book(s) today, versus the shape they were in 30 years ago (taking the changed marketplace into account) which is truly "wrong"?

 

[Gregatron]

I agree with you considerably, though I have a bit of a different view on seeing Peter grow up and age, but to follow along with his audience is greedy; it's not nessicary.

From a writer's standpoint, I can understand wanted to make a character flawed, as have the perfect being would become obnoxious without some form of depth to go into. With that said, riddling a character with angst and constant problems that are "life-threatening" is just pathetic writing. I'm thinking about the last few arcs, and all I can come up with is to give Spider-man a vacation.

For Peter, I think the reason he's viewed as an "everyman" is perhaps how he got his power; by an accident. A kid who lived with his aunt and uncle got bit (albeit by a radioactive spider), and now has powers. To me, it has a certain appeal to it that says anyone can make something of themselves. It feels more down to earth than (in example) a meteor or just being born with the powers. Peter made his webbing, utliized his own power after learning a life lesson and started doing it for the greater good. No matter how it's written, I think that could still be extracted from it.

While I can understand finding similar traits to compare oneself to the character, totally relating to him could never happen, no matter what they put in there. For the medium that these particular comics are presented as, they are meant to be esacpe-fantasy, where you don't need to worry about all the swearing and graphic sex and violence, right? Brightly colored spandex wearing men going out and wielding supernatural abilities and tools at one another where in the end, the hero will be victorious; doesn't seem too realistic to me.

I think I'm thinking more outloud right now than anything, but at least I'm getting to see my thoughts actually outlined coherrently, and even better worded by other people.



Even if it's not even directed towards me (more of my age range, not me personally), it still breaks my heart to think that might be the truth. Everytime I hear something about backissues, I get the vibe that Marvel wants to make new readers feel dirty for reading them. "Here, have Ultimate! And this new twist on the origin! It's the fresh one, so you don't need to see that silly Essentials rag." I'm a stickler for art, and I do love looking through comics for artists that I enjoy, but I'd give that up for the old Lee-Ditko, Lee-Romita days in an instant. For all the gimicks, etc, I'd love to read just a solid one issue where it gets resolved and everything is back to psuedo-normal.

Spot on, friend.


Today, the "everyman" aspect has taken over. Writers sit down and say, "Well, this Spider-guy is supposed to be an everyman, right? So, I'll write him like ME--but with superpowers.".

 

[gildea]

I'm kind of reminded of the simpsons.


Been going on for years but very little has changed.

And it still works.

 

[stillanerd]

All this talk reminds me of a post I came up months ago (so it's a little dated and I can't find it on these boards) with that could end the Spidey marriage WITHOUT killing MJ, divorce, time-travel, reality warping, whatever. Call it the "What if Peter never actually married MJ but a lookalike imposter working for S.H.E.I.L.D. scenario.

Aunt May gets a call from Anna Watson (remember her?) who tells her MJ is in the hosptial...in Florida. But that's impossible because MJ is still in New York doing her Broadway play. Faster than you can say "Clones" Peter and Aunt May fly down to the Miami hospital to meet Anna where, indeed they find MJ. Only this MJ has no memory of ever being married to Peter and certainly has no idea who Spider-Man is. Then the kicker is that the doctor tells her not only is she the real MJ but that she's been in a coma for years and has just woke up. Suddenly, some armed baddies attack, promting Spidey to go into action, but MJ is kidnapped just as agents of SHIELD arrive led by...Mary Jane? Turns out THIS MJ is actually an agent of SHIELD, who has been physically altered and trained to look and act like the real MJ. Nick Fury, wanting to keep tabs on Spidey because he wasn't an Avenger at the time and had a dubious police record, orginally wanted the real MJ to work for them, only she had an accident. That's when a volunteer (we'll call her Agent MJ) agreed to the assignment, and was supposed to get close to Peter, confirm his identity as Spider-Man, and monitor his activities. There was one thing Agent MJ didn't count on...she feel in love with Peter. Naturally, Spidey is pissed because he loves this imposter and is enraged at having been lied to all this time. But, in order to rescue the real MJ, he'll have to work with Agent MJ and SHIELD. This of course leads to the rescue, a showdown with a major bad guy who has his reasons for kidnapping the real MJ in the first place, and Agent MJ sacrificing herself to save her husband. As she dies in Peter's arms, both get a chance to say "I love you" and "I'm sorry." So now, you're left with a Mary Jane who trying to reclaim her life after being gone for so many years and a Peter Parker who is no longer married, but still has feelings for MJ, but can't express how he feels about her, or tell her he's really Spider-Man, afraid that if he does, he'll "loose her again."

 

[SpideyInATree]

Maybe DC will loan them Superboy Prime. Seriously, one really big problem I can see how does it affect the rest of the Marvel Universe in terms of continuity if they are going with the time-travel idea. I suppose they could always claim that history for all the other characters in Marvel remained unchanged, with the exception that Spidey wasn't married. Also, if it's more boarder scope that just the "spider-marriage" then what else to they believe needs to be altered? Where's the cut-off point? On top of that, you've got the issue of whether or not certain issues no longer count. That was one of the big uproars involved with the clone saga. I suppose the official explanation could be "Well, Peter still remembers all those events from that particular timeline, so for him they still happened, so now he has lived a life that no longer exists a la being married to Gwen and having a son House of M" etc. Even so, unless they plan on restructuring the entire Marvel U this way--and risk being accused of ripping off DC--it would be a real mess.

I think the first is really possible, but with regards to the second, obviously you didn't read my earlier post quoting Joe Q on that very point :

Yeah, you could be right on that, about the time traveling. You would figure that the rest of the Marvel Universe would have to sort of restructure around him. And I'm under the impression that this little JMS/Quesada miniseries is supposed to take out the crappy parts of JMS' run, like Sins Past.

So, I agree with you there. Like I said...it's just a rumor this guy told me at the comic con and something I picked up on in last months Wizard. It could mean nothing and they'll just do some back door work and retcon the stuff some other way.

But the time traveling also can lend a tool to bring back characters who have been dead. Like Gwen Stacy...Harry Osborn...*ahem*....Ben Reilly. And after seeing J. Scott Campbell's pencils for the upcoming ongoing Spidey title...and seeing a Gwen Stacy sketch...either means Loeb will be dipping into past stories...or the rumor is true.

As for my obsession with MJ. As I've said, it's just wishful thinking on my part. I'm not crazy about the MJ character....so, yeah. But everytime I hear Quesada start talking about the marriage and disliking it...I always take it as a hint that something is going to happen. Its possible that they won't be doing anything to her and it's all just wasted hope. But I always hope she dies...heh. I really thought she was gonna get killed during Millar's Marvel Knights run, but he really disappointed on that.

 

[hulkamania85]

It would probably be a lot easier if they just tried to write good stories with Spider-Man the way he is now, and not trying to go back in time to make him younger. The character has aged, that is what USM is for.

I can understand being pissed at the whole MJ thing, because it isn't the marriage's fault Spider-Man sucks. It's that nothing really good is coming out plot wise, and the marriage could work if they bothered to write it well.

I can understand all the moaning in this case. Iron Spidey doesn't bug me. It's a fresh look for him for a little while, and he'll go back to his old costume soon enough. I don't see why everyone got bent out of shape about it, except to find one more thing to complain about.

That MJ comment was dumb though. If they wanted to kill her off, they better do a damn good job with it to justify doing so. Like have her sacrifice herself to save a kid on the street, so she dies trying to be a hero like her husband. Short of that it will probably be a crappy death.

I wish they'd just accept that someone wrote that he got married, and roll with it instead of trying to go back in time.

 

[deathshead2]

Joe Q and JMS can try as much as they want but Peter can't go back to being a teen. If they kill MJ will just come back more than likly.

 

[dan1]

BTW, here's further comments from Joe Q on the Spider-Man marriage in http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays48.html]Newsarama[/url]
Including this "history lesson."



Wrong-O Joe Q. While I agree that Peter and MJ's marriage was rushed in the comics, Roger Stern had already brought her back in the comics around 1983-1984 so she was already "living in New York" for at least four years. Plus, she and Peter DID have a prior history together in the comics. That's what I call overstating your case.

Right! Quesada is wrong about the continuity timeline once-again. And you expect Quesada and JMS to weave a web of continuity that fixes everything that went "wrong," which dates back to the eighties? For one I can see them try, because then they are letting themselves off the hook that they didn't royally screw everything up, but again they would be mucking around with continuity, they have no freakin' clue, and they would just make matters worse.

The only thing that can salvage Spider-Man comics right now is if Ezekial, Mysterio, Jackal or some other villian was pulling the strings during what should be a bull*it Totem and Sins Past and Other 'magic trick' to mess with Peter. And once that's all squashed, then Spider-Man stories can get back to basics.

 

[LarryLegend]

Marvel know their own history? Don't you know that they fired all the people who used to do that! (They needed the cash to pay JMS)

 

[dan1]

Marvel know their own history? Don't you know that they fired all the people who used to do that! (They needed the cash to pay JMS)

And the fact that they have to use the fan created Spiderfan.org site to keep continuity right makes me cringe.

How cheap is this company. The should have their own database/search engine that has more indepth summaries, that can be sorted by keywords in the text. They should know who's dead, alive, when and how that came to pass, etc. etc.

Pathetic that they don't. Absolutely.

 

[Gregatron]

Right! Quesada is wrong about the continuity timeline once-again. And you expect Quesada and JMS to weave a web of continuity that fixes everything that went "wrong," which dates back to the eighties? For one I can see them try, because then they are letting themselves off the hook that they didn't royally screw everything up, but again they would be mucking around with continuity, they have no freakin' clue, and they would just make matters worse.

The only thing that can salvage Spider-Man comics right now is if Ezekial, Mysterio, Jackal or some other villian was pulling the strings during what should be a bull*it Totem and Sins Past and Other 'magic trick' to mess with Peter. And once that's all squashed, then Spider-Man stories can get back to basics.

Doesn't that sound familiar? As in, "ten years ago, Norman Osborn was resurrected as an all-knowing master planner to bail Marvel out of the Clone Saga" familiar?

"Those who fail to remember history..."

 

[Zenien]

I get it! So the marriage is the problem, not the ****ty writting and ideas the character has been forced into over the years.

Oh god, now that stupid little fring group who hates MJ is going to come out of the woodwork. The MARRIAGE has been one oft he saving graces of the books over the years.

 

[ragingdemon155]

I get it! So the marriage is the problem, not the ****ty writting and ideas the character has been forced into over the years.

Oh god, now that stupid little fring group who hates MJ is going to come out of the woodwork. The MARRIAGE has been one oft he saving graces of the books over the years.

Couldn't have said it better.

The marriage is the ONLY bright spot for 616 Spider-man comics right now.

 

[Captivated]

I get it! So the marriage is the problem, not the ****ty writting and ideas the character has been forced into over the years.

Oh god, now that stupid little fring group who hates MJ is going to come out of the woodwork. The MARRIAGE has been one oft he saving graces of the books over the years.

AMEN.

 

[LarryLegend]

Yeah, its the marriage, not stories like Sins Past and The Other. The inmates truely are running the asylum.

 

[Gregatron]

There's something I need to make clear. I like Peter and Mary Jane as a couple very much (and I'm not talking about the strangers being called "Peter" and "Mary Jane" in today's comics), and there have been good stories done with them as a married couple.

But I still feel that marrying Spider-Man off was a mistake, and a major departure from the character's core concepts.

 

[ragingdemon155]

There's something I need to make clear. I like Peter and Mary Jane as a couple very much (and I'm not talking about the strangers being called "Peter" and "Mary Jane" in today's comics), and there have been good stories done with them as a married couple.

But I still feel that marrying Spider-Man off was a mistake, and a major departure from the character's core concepts.

Peter always wanted to "settle down" though. Peter and MJ as a married couple have become icons in the Marvel universe and comics in general. It's one of those elements you don't "screw" with.

 

[Gregatron]

Peter always wanted to "settle down" though. Peter and MJ as a married couple have become icons in the Marvel universe and comics in general. It's one of those elements you don't "screw" with.

Peter may have been the marrying type, but that doesn't mean he should have been married off by his creators.


The inherent problem is that the marriage has now become a seemingly permanent--and almost intractable--part of Spider-Man's identity. Things have become warped so gradually over so long, that's who he is now.


But that doesn't mean it's who he should be.

 

[rscal]

which only means more crap maybe they'll just have pictures of themselves JMS and joe Q on the cover in the men's bathroom so at least the book would be judged by its cover correctly.