Comics Get ready people, JMS and Joe Q are planning ANOTHER Spider-Man event

[Herr Logan]

Greg discover the grey spots... not everything is black or white...

I'll agree with this. I'll even go so far as to say that Greg is a zealot. However, Gregatron is the most intelligent and dilligent zealot I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with.
He does his homework when it comes to Spider-Man, and he's shown an exceptional amount of insight regarding same.

Let's all remember that, even if you prefer a more flexible paradigm (which most people do).

 

[MaxCarnage]

I'll agree with this. I'll even go so far as to say that Greg is a zealot. However, Gregatron is the most intelligent and dilligent zealot I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with.
He does his homework when it comes to Spider-Man, and he's shown an exceptional amount of insight regarding same.

Let's all remember that, even if you prefer a more flexible paradigm (which most people do).

He's also rude, condescending, and abrasive if you don't agree with him.

 

[LarryLegend]

And THAT ladies and gentleman is why you don't mess with Texas...especially a woman from Texas. Right Captivated?



All Spider-Man continuity from the Secret Wars to the present is erased (or maybe just after the Death of Gwen Stacy) and those events are moved forward and tied into the present, meaning the rest of the Marvel Universe is the same except for Spidey, who is now an umarried college student once more. To quote a song from the Rocky Horror Picture Show: "Let's Do the Time-Warp Again!"

Why not. Its only 30+ years of history. On the plus, Norman would still be dead and there would be no clone saga, Gwen Babies or the Other.

 

[LarryLegend]

He's also rude, condescending, and abrasive if you don't agree with him.

Fellas, fellas, can't we all get along? This thread isn't for attacking each other, its for attacking, criticising and *****ing about the demented duo.

 

[giggs11uk]

Its quite obvious what JMS and Joe Q are going to do.

Make Spidey Gay.

Being Gay is young and hip it can offer new romances in spideys life and they can get ride of MJ. It seems perfect and fits in with Spidey being Tony Starks B!tch storyline.

THATS what there goin to do. It is completly Obvious

 

[Herr Logan]

He's also rude, condescending, and abrasive if you don't agree with him.

Those are just the icing on the cake.


If I were egotistical, I might say he takes after yours truly.

 

[Herr Logan]

Fellas, fellas, can't we all get along? This thread isn't for attacking each other, its for attacking, criticising and *****ing about the demented duo.

Fighting amongst ourselves is just what they want!


Lucky for them some of us were pugnacious, ornery bastards to begin with. They can't take all the credit.

 

[Mara Jane]

Its quite obvious what JMS and Joe Q are going to do.

Make Spidey Gay.

Being Gay is young and hip it can offer new romances in spideys life and they can get ride of MJ. It seems perfect and fits in with Spidey being Tony Starks B!tch storyline.

THATS what there goin to do. It is completly Obvious

Strangely enough, it did occur to me that they might make MJ discover she's a lesbian. And she'd date Felicia. That would add some irony back to Pete's life... But I won't say things like that because Marvel may be listening. And fanboys may be drooling.

 

[Captivated]

And THAT ladies and gentleman is why you don't mess with Texas...especially a woman from Texas. Right Captivated?

That IS what they say! And mess with THIS little Texan at your own risk... just this past week I caught a 6' Rat Snake in my back yard, moved him to the front yard (away from my dogs) and did it in a dress and heels. I love working in the city and living in the country!

All Spider-Man continuity from the Secret Wars to the present is erased (or maybe just after the Death of Gwen Stacy) and those events are moved forward and tied into the present, meaning the rest of the Marvel Universe is the same except for Spidey, who is now an umarried college student once more. To quote a song from the Rocky Horror Picture Show: "Let's Do the Time-Warp Again!"

Trying to picture that... Hmm... The problem would be that WE, the fans would remember... I'd probably just end up being anixous for him to get together with MJ again.

If they really want to erase his history, they'll need to somehow induce mass hypnosis. I can see them now... planting subliminal messages in the artwork...

 

[stillanerd]

That IS what they say! And mess with THIS little Texan at your own risk... just this past week I caught a 6' Rat Snake in my back yard, moved him to the front yard (away from my dogs) and did it in a dress and heels. I love working in the city and living in the country!

You Go Girl! (whille THIS California-born young man recalls an instance where he came across a Rattler in the road while running and froze in terror )

Trying to picture that... Hmm... The problem would be that WE, the fans would remember... I'd probably just end up being anixous for him to get together with MJ again.

Exactly. Not that I wouldn't mind Spidey being a teenager/college student again, but the whole point is that he was supposed to grow and develop from the very beginning. And let's face it, MJ is the right girl for him, he's married to her, and the creators have to deal with that. If he's going to be married, then they need to do something with it rather than lay the blame for Spidey's problems on it.

If they really want to erase his history, they'll need to somehow induce mass hypnosis. I can see them now... planting subliminal messages in the artwork...

Joe Q: You are getting sleepy...sleepy...

 

[Cullen]

Those are just the icing on the cake.


If I were egotistical, I might say he takes after yours truly.

That poor, poor man. Why must you say such terrible things about him?

(insolence level at 95% and climbing...)

(and, just for the record, Cullen boy knows he ain't got any room to talk...)

 

[Cullen]

Fighting amongst ourselves is just what they want!


Lucky for them some of us were pugnacious, ornery bastards to begin with. They can't take all the credit.

Not me. I've never been a bastard my whole life. My birth certificate and parents' marriage license proves that...

 

[Gregatron]

Gregatron, the Ultimate Line of Spider-Man was created for the purpose of "starting young again, pre-marriage, etc." and should have been enough to satiate those that want a young Spider-Man and, at the same time, make sure the 616 continuity stays as perfect as possible, where he would keep growing.

That would seem to have been the initial reasoning for Ultimate Line.

Spider-Man comics, to me and many others would have been very boring if he always remained young or if he was retrofitted as such.

I think you make a lot of valid points, everyone knows that, but your wish is/was an extreme one. There has to be a compromise and everyone who knows the history knows that if the writers and editors just respected 'it ' and wrote within continuity, insteading of making up whatever their lazy behinds want to make up, then you could have Young Spider-Man and Growing Spider-Man both being successful publications for two completely different markets.

Instead, it seems the Ultimate line is mostly read by the same jaded 616 history buffs that are just happy a comic is staying within its continuity.

Well, it isn't that hard to do that in 616, as we have all posted to death.

-Clone Saga, we know it dragged to long.
-Found a scapegoat in Norman
-Turned Norman into Spider-Mans' 'Joker.'
-Mackie burnt out writing too many issues, with management telling him what the major plots will be.

Those things happened, but they could have been easily rectified.

Instead the Snowballing hype and guaranteed success of the movies, and an editor and writer that care very little for theme and continuity crapped all over Spider-Man 616 comics, instead of quickly and easily fixing the above missteps, within continuity.

JMS and Quesada lost Spider-Mans' timeline, personality, supporting cast, and individuality from the movie counterpart(made for the masses).

Spider-Man comics could have been returned to Silver Age glory, which was still present well within Peters' marraige (IMHO).

You don't have to go back to Young Spider-Man only, to acheive that.

Insects don't have politics. They're very brutal. No compassion. No compromise.


I am sure that if and when Bendis steps down from Ultimate, new writers will come aboard and start making the same kinds of mistakes as the Marvel Universe writers did (I refuse to accept Alan Moore's "616" nonsense).

 

[Gregatron]

I don't disagree with everything you post... but on THIS issue... the growth/marriage thing, you have a major blind spot. You have to ignore so much to cling to that position. And it's getting a little tedious... how do you have time to make all these long posts, harping on the same thing?

Let me repeat myself...

He's Peter Parker NOT Peter Pan.

Answer a simple yes or no...

Did Stan Lee create the character?

Do you think Stan Lee knew the character?

Did Stan Lee "grow" the character?

Did Stan have Peter graduate from high school in ASM #28?

Did Stan have Peter thinking about marriage before he even graduated from high school?

Did Peter want to marry Gwen?

Did Peter propose to MJ more than once?

Did Peter daydream about being married to Felicia, even picturing their KIDS and dog?

Did Peter ever break up with a girl because he knew a marriage wouldn't work out between them?

Did Stan mean for Peter to marry someday?

Dude... wake up and smell the character development.

1. No. Stan and STEVE did.

2. Yes.

3. Only because he didn't think it would last. Once Peter entered college, the brakes were put on. And Conway killed Gwen because he knew a married Spider-Man would gouge out the core of the character.

4. Yes, because of the reason stated above. Ditko (and possibly even Lee himself) later stated that it was a mistake.

5. Yes. But he didn't marry Peter off, because that would have deprived him of too many dramatic weapons.

As for the rest, citing "what Peter would want" has nothing to do with the creative and thematic intregity of the book or its writers.

 

[Gregatron]

that is one of the things I love about Peter...we have seen this character grow from boy to man....in the same way Luke Skywalker is my favorite character(he went from farmboy to jedi knight to jedi master). Name another comic character that has grown like that.

Luke Skywalker was played by a living, breathing actor who will age and die, in a series of films intended to have a beginning, middle, and end.

Spider-Man is a fictional character who lives only on paper, and who exists in a medium that was designed to be endless and self-renewing.

 

[Gregatron]

I'll agree with this. I'll even go so far as to say that Greg is a zealot. However, Gregatron is the most intelligent and dilligent zealot I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with.
He does his homework when it comes to Spider-Man, and he's shown an exceptional amount of insight regarding same.

Let's all remember that, even if you prefer a more flexible paradigm (which most people do).

I must be clear. I do not obsess about this every second of every day.

I must also say that I absolutely love many stories that defy this "paradigm" you all feel I'm locked into. I love the original Clone Saga and the alien costume and the Hobgoblin and the early Venom stories and many stories with Peter and Mary Jane married.

But the bottom line is that the gradual shift away from what defined Spider-Man and made him successful is a mistake. I am not saying that 30 years' worth of stories are a mistake.

 

[Gregatron]

He's also rude, condescending, and abrasive if you don't agree with him.

I merely state my opinions, as well as cold, hard facts, in a simple, logical fashion. I detest those who think with their fists, assume they know it all, and have nothing better to do than try to take me down a peg or ten.


If anyone here feels that I have insulted and/or belittled them, then I apologize. But my opinions will not change because you wish it.

I will not goose-step with the Zombies.

 

[Gregatron]

So I went to a comic shop today (despite my feelings of utter disgust and exasperation towards the current state of the industry and the "fans"---but not the characters. Never the characters.), and what do I see?

The clerk and two 20-30 year old fanboys were discussing the new X-Men hardcover that contains most of the Claremont/Byrne run (Giant-Size X-Men # 1 and X-Men # 94-131). The fanboys said that that run was the first time the stories started to be ongoing and written for adults (i.e. them).

One then said that the old Lee-Kirby stories are "fun to have, but...well, corny" and written for kids. The other said that he picked up a reprint of one of those old issues, and couldn't even get through it.


Sigh.


I did pick up all 3 issues of the Spider-Man: Death and Destiny limited series, however. A small victory.

 

[Norman Osborn]

One then said that the old Lee-Kirby stories are "fun to have, but...well, corny" and written for kids. The other said that he picked up a reprint of one of those old issues, and couldn't even get through it.


Sigh.
.

I'm not sure I know how to begin to understand the bolded print?.....ironically however, 5 minutes before I logged on here I read the "Death of Gwen Stacy" TPB my wife had bought for me on the weekend......Including the added "The Kiss" epilogue........I had a hell of a time getting through it as well....not because it was corny though

 

[Herr Logan]

I must be clear. I do not obsess about this every second of every day.

I must also say that I absolutely love many stories that defy this "paradigm" you all feel I'm locked into. I love the original Clone Saga and the alien costume and the Hobgoblin and the early Venom stories and many stories with Peter and Mary Jane married.

But the bottom line is that the gradual shift away from what defined Spider-Man and made him successful is a mistake. I am not saying that 30 years' worth of stories are a mistake.

Honestly, Greg, I meant no disrespect and didn't mean to come off as presumptuous (this time). I was being a little bit facetious when I said "zealot," I was referring to the intensity of how you feel and sometimes express your feelings regarding this matter. It's not necessarily a criticism (this time...), but you have to admit, your absolutist approach to this discussion has given other people grounds for criticising your arguments.

I myself don't hold such absolute views on the topics you're arguing currently, but I have my own set of "it freakin' is or it freakin' isn't" topics. 'Sins Past,' for example. It. Didn't. Fecking. Happen. 'Nuff. Said.
Also the web-shooters issue. If Spider-Man doesn't have mechanical webshooters in an origin story, then it isn't Spider-Man, period (regarding the movies). I might possibly reconsider that if the films had shown a faithful Spider-Man personality, but it didn't. Not even close. Therefore, it was a weak substitute in a great costume (at least in the sequel, where the web patterns was black instead of silver).

So yeah, I've got my absolutes, and I don't back down in the face of conformist sheep who'll accept what they're given at face value, defend it against all criticisms, and try to bully people who think for their God damn selves into being silent or being compliant. Understand that I'm not in the same boat as the people who accept change for change's sake. Not even close. As I said before, I'd have preferred Peter not get married, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it betrays the character's core concepts. I think that's far too subjective a statement to state with such certainty as if it were a fact. That's something I can't really defend you against, and it honestly does come off very zealous, the way you express it.

Still, like I tried to convey earlier, you deserve respect for the research and analysis you've done with regard to Spider-Man comics. Some of your main points are completely alien to a lot of people, but they shouldn't generalize and dismiss your arguments for that. That's how real insight gets ignored.

Anyway, I hope I made myself clear and haven't alienated you. I just thought you should know that you've basically crossed some conceptual lines in arguments that even I haven't (at least not without later retracting my statements after more cool-headed consideration), and that's going to make you public enemy #1 in a place like this, and very few people can stand with that sort of argument.

By the way I haven't gotten very far in your essay yet, but fully plan to finish it sometime soon. It stands as proof of your dedication to the dignity that used to exist in Spider-Man comics.
In fact, I'm gonna pimp it in my signature from now on. Shinlyle got a link for his bad-ass post that spoke against 'Sins Past.' I'll give the rest of your essay the benefit of the doubt and assume that it's definitely sig-worthy.

 

[Gregatron]

I'm not sure I know how to begin to understand the bolded print?.....ironically however, 5 minutes before I logged on here I read the "Death of Gwen Stacy" TPB my wife had bought for me on the weekend......Including the added "The Kiss" epilogue........I had a hell of a time getting through it as well....not because it was corny though

Perhaps because everyone is so addicted to empty junk food these days that they can't handle a meal with some substance to it anymore.

 

[Gregatron]

Honestly, Greg, I meant no disrespect and didn't mean to come off as presumptuous (this time). I was being a little bit facetious when I said "zealot," I was referring to the intensity of how you feel and sometimes express your feelings regarding this matter. It's not necessarily a criticism (this time...), but you have to admit, your absolutist approach to this discussion has given other people grounds for criticising your arguments.

I myself don't hold such absolute views on the topics you're arguing currently, but I have my own set of "it freakin' is or it freakin' isn't" topics. 'Sins Past,' for example. It. Didn't. Fecking. Happen. 'Nuff. Said.
Also the web-shooters issue. If Spider-Man doesn't have mechanical webshooters in an origin story, then it isn't Spider-Man, period (regarding the movies). I might possibly reconsider that if the films had shown a faithful Spider-Man personality, but it didn't. Not even close. Therefore, it was a weak substitute in a great costume (at least in the sequel, where the web patterns was black instead of silver).

So yeah, I've got my absolutes, and I don't back down in the face of conformist sheep who'll accept what they're given at face value, defend it against all criticisms, and try to bully people who think for their God damn selves into being silent or being compliant. Understand that I'm not in the same boat as the people who accept change for change's sake. Not even close. As I said before, I'd have preferred Peter not get married, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it betrays the character's core concepts. I think that's far too subjective a statement to state with such certainty as if it were a fact. That's something I can't really defend you against, and it honestly does come off very zealous, the way you express it.

Still, like I tried to convey earlier, you deserve respect for the research and analysis you've done with regard to Spider-Man comics. Some of your main points are completely alien to a lot of people, but they shouldn't generalize and dismiss your arguments for that. That's how real insight gets ignored.

Anyway, I hope I made myself clear and haven't alienated you. I just thought you should know that you've basically crossed some conceptual lines in arguments that even I haven't (at least not without later retracting my statements after more cool-headed consideration), and that's going to make you public enemy #1 in a place like this, and very few people can stand with that sort of argument.

By the way I haven't gotten very far in your essay yet, but fully plan to finish it sometime soon. It stands as proof of your dedication to the dignity that used to exist in Spider-Man comics.
In fact, I'm gonna pimp it in my signature from now on. Shinlyle got a link for his bad-ass post that spoke against 'Sins Past.' I'll give the rest of your essay the benefit of the doubt and assume that it's definitely sig-worthy.

You are a gem in the rough, sir.

I appreciate you constructive criticism.


I simply feel that the notion of a married Spider-Man defies one of the core elements of the character (the "teenager-against-the-world who escapes from his problems as Spider-Man" concept that was so all-ages appealing).

The notion of "growth and change" was not a core element of the character at his inception, and therefore holds far less weight in such an argument.


As for the rest of the masses and their unconstructive criticism...bring it on.

 

[Mara Jane]

3. Only because he didn't think it would last. Once Peter entered college, the brakes were put on. And Conway killed Gwen because he knew a married Spider-Man would gouge out the core of the character.

Just want to clarify some things here. In an interview I saw with Stan (I think it was a History Channel documentary), he said that the reason he made Pete a college student was mostly a financial one; most of the people buying comic books - specifically Spider-Man comic books - at that time were college students, not kids or high schoolers. He felt it necessary to take the character to the fan base. Plus, in the late 60's, there was a lot of drama going on at the nation's colleges that could easily be used as storyline fodder. So there were perceived storyline advantages to aging him.

I assumed that Conway killed Gwen not because marriage = bad for Spidey, but because Gwen needed a break from the comics (she had been written into a hole, even Stan admitted that he struggled writing her at the end of his run) and Conway wanted to do something dramatic to really shock the heck out of people and grab a lot of attention for the title he was writing. I don't see how your argument is any more valid than this one.

As for the rest, citing "what Peter would want" has nothing to do with the creative and thematic intregity of the book or its writers.

Isn't this book all about Peter, though? And what he wants in his life? Sure, he seldom ever gets it and that's part of the nature of Spider-Man's story. Honestly, though, I don't think I'd want to read about a hero that NEVER gets anything he wants in life. How could I ever want to be like someone like that? How pathetic. Even Charlie Brown got to hit a home run once.

Peter has always been a character that has wanted to be married. Period. Which means that every step he takes in relationships would lead him to that. It isn't fair to suggest that he should be like Archie, because Peter isn't Archie, and Archie has never taken himself as seriously as Pete has. Archie has never explicitly stated that he'd like to be married the way Peter has. He's too busy having fun. As fun as Spidey can be, underneath the mask is Peter Parker, a guy that, as stated in his own comics, is a total "square." Squares are people that like the concept of monogamy and want to settle down. It would seem that this is a natural progression in keeping with the nature of the character.

I see no reason why writers couldn't use this development to continue to write good stories. They really just haven't put any effort into it. I'd love to see tension added by having an old boyfriend of MJ's show up to interview for a job at Stark Industries. He could be her "Gwen Stacy" - the one that got away. There are lots of possibilities.

 

[Gregatron]

Just want to clarify some things here. In an interview I saw with Stan (I think it was a History Channel documentary), he said that the reason he made Pete a college student was mostly a financial one; most of the people buying comic books - specifically Spider-Man comic books - at that time were college students, not kids or high schoolers. He felt it necessary to take the character to the fan base. Plus, in the late 60's, there was a lot of drama going on at the nation's colleges that could easily be used as storyline fodder. So there were perceived storyline advantages to aging him.

I assumed that Conway killed Gwen not because marriage = bad for Spidey, but because Gwen needed a break from the comics (she had been written into a hole, even Stan admitted that he struggled writing her at the end of his run) and Conway wanted to do something dramatic to really shock the heck out of people and grab a lot of attention for the title he was writing. I don't see how your argument is any more valid than this one.



Isn't this book all about Peter, though? And what he wants in his life? Sure, he seldom ever gets it and that's part of the nature of Spider-Man's story. Honestly, though, I don't think I'd want to read about a hero that NEVER gets anything he wants in life. How could I ever want to be like someone like that? How pathetic. Even Charlie Brown got to hit a home run once.

Peter has always been a character that has wanted to be married. Period. Which means that every step he takes in relationships would lead him to that. It isn't fair to suggest that he should be like Archie, because Peter isn't Archie, and Archie has never taken himself as seriously as Pete has. Archie has never explicitly stated that he'd like to be married the way Peter has. He's too busy having fun. As fun as Spidey can be, underneath the mask is Peter Parker, a guy that, as stated in his own comics, is a total "square." Squares are people that like the concept of monogamy and want to settle down. It would seem that this is a natural progression in keeping with the nature of the character.

I see no reason why writers couldn't use this development to continue to write good stories. They really just haven't put any effort into it. I'd love to see tension added by having an old boyfriend of MJ's show up to interview for a job at Stark Industries. He could be her "Gwen Stacy" - the one that got away. There are lots of possibilities.

We all know how bad Stan's memory is. Certainly, though, one reason the change was likely made was to appeal to the college fanbase (the beginning of the problems we have now). But the brakes were still put on at that point.

Conway killed Gwen because:


A. He knew marriage was wrong for Spider-Man, and would severely limit the character. Killing Gwen, however, would reinforce the tragedy/responsibilty aspects at the character's core, as well as making Peter single again.

B. He didn't like Gwen (he felt she was bland compared to Mary Jane), and felt that Mary Jane was destined to be Peter's girlfriend.

C. Shock value.


And just because Peter was the marrying kind didn't mean he should actually get married.


Mulder and Scully had romantic tension, but shouldn't they have ever gotten together? Wouldn't that have been a "realistic" development?

Oh, wait.

 

[ragingdemon155]

We all know how bad Stan's memory is. Certainly, though, one reason the change was likely made was to appeal to the college fanbase (the beginning of the problems we have now). But the brakes were still put on at that point.

Conway killed Gwen because:


A. He knew marriage was wrong for Spider-Man, and would severely limit the character. Killing Gwen, however, would reinforce the tragedy/responsibilty aspects at the character's core, as well as making Peter single again.

B. He didn't like Gwen (he felt she was bland compared to Mary Jane), and felt that Mary Jane was destined to be Peter's girlfriend.

C. Shock value.


And just because Peter was the marrying kind didn't mean he should actually get married.


Mulder and Scully had romantic tension, but shouldn't they have ever gotten together? Wouldn't that have been a "realistic" development?

Oh, wait.

I see what your saying and I respect your opinion. It's just that I still don't see how the marriage is neccesarily a "bad" thing for Spider-man/Peter. There are so many possibilties and storylines that have yet to even be touched on with the marriage. From his very first issue..Spider-man has been in a constant stay of progression and development, almost growing with his readers. Now, granted...I don't want Spider-man to grow into an oldman with limping from roof top to roof top. But his growth from highschool to college to a job, having a few relationships along the way (Gwen, Betty Felicia), finally settling down with MJ. That's always been one of the charms of the character to me.

Joey Q is a complete idiot if he thinks giving MJ the boot will "fix" things. Fans for the most part love her, the marriage and she's easily one of the most popular characters in Marvel. The marriage had nothing to do with Totem nonsense, The Other, Sins Pasts, Spidey sucking up souls, stabing and eating people.