"Growing Pains" Season 2: Episode 19 Discussion Thread

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Hasn't anyone else seen that throughout this arc, between scenes of the episode, supporting cast members speak about somthing on the episode. The play was mainly (except Harry's) about soon to be. There wasalso the video clips in first steps and interviews in the last episode in the arc.

Also the newspaper story on spiderman as a criminal is "oh what a tangled web we weave!"
 
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Hasn't anyone else seen that throughout this arc, between scenes of the episode, supporting cast members speak about somthing on the episode. The play was mainly (except Harry's) about soon to be. There wasalso the video clips in first steps and interviews in the last episode in the arc.

Also the newspaper story on spiderman as a criminal is "oh what a tangled web we weave!"

As I said in my previous post, that quote is NOT from any of William Shakespeare's plays or sonnets, but it often mistakenly attributed to him. The lines "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practise to deceive" was actually penned by Sir Walter Scott from his poem "Marmion." So J. Jonah Jameson quoting something that was not authored by Shakespeare when all the other supporting characters are makes the scene even more hilarious and fitting for Jameson's character.
 
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my worst fear has coming to pass...spectacular spider-man is ending on a cliffhanger.

it's hard enough waiting for each episode when they are self enclosed now it will be agony. I actually shouted 'NO!' when the end credits started playing.
 
What's wrong with everybody? This episode ROCKED!!! By far the best of the season IMO. Very well written episodes, some great lines, some great jokes (the parrot lol), it had Venom torturing Peter Parker the way Venom's supposed to, the supporting cast is developing well...and a great cliffhanger ending. This gets a 10/10 in my book.
 
I wonder if hobbi brown is ever going to speak in the series.
 
What's wrong with everybody? This episode ROCKED!!! By far the best of the season IMO. Very well written episodes, some great lines, some great jokes (the parrot lol), it had Venom torturing Peter Parker the way Venom's supposed to, the supporting cast is developing well...and a great cliffhanger ending. This gets a 10/10 in my book.

well not the best so far, but still very, very good episode. it seems to me that they follow the system "great-good-great episode" with the arcs. I mean
Blueprints - Great
Destructive Testing - Great
Reinforcement - Good
Shear Strength - Great
------------------------
First Steps - Great
Growing Pains - Good
Identity Crisis - Great
---------------------
Accomplies - Great
Probable Cause - Good

its like they start and end the arcs with awesome episodes. i doubt its on purpouse, but who knows...
 
I think they like teasing us with Hobby about to speak, but he always gets interrupted. When and if he does get to speak, I wonder if Phil Lamar will do his voice.

Someone mentioned Peter's spider-sense always going off in school. This could be a nod to Marvel Adventures Spider-Man. In those comics, Peter's spider-sense goes of many times because of the same or similar things that occur in this series.
 
wow
I have to say I really loved this episode
best of the seaon for sure
I really liked seeing Vemon pretending to be Spiderman
it almost seemed like a nod to the new Spiderman in Dark Avengers to me
and what a great ending
definitely a 10
 
Ok so i finally saw this episode on youtube and i think it was great i really loved it. Flash was pretty pathetic and Eddie well it was cool to see him again and he framed spidey and not only did he framed him he spilled out the good. Peter parker is spider-man!! Boy that a great cliffhanger for the show. But the fight scenes between Spidey and venom were real awkward. Anyway great episode but i give it about a 10/10 :woot:
 
I'm surprised at all the 10/10s...... :o
 
This season's Venom has more than made up for season 1's Venom, and we still have one more Venom ep left.
 
I gave it 8, but watching it second time I somehow like it even more... with more viewings it somehow flows better.
I would give it a 9 or even a 10.
And yes... I liked Venom here even more than in the first season, and I loved that battle during a night, after all Venom is a dark character.
 
The "Ask Greg" section of Greg Weisman's website is no longer accepting questions, which is a shame since this was one I thought of recently and its been bothering me to no end. Maybe its worth discussing?

When ESU Labs had to let Eddie go because their fundings were being cut, Eddie said that his employment at the labs were the only way he could pay to stay in college.

The writers of the show and his voice actor (Ben Diskin) have said that Eddie's character was (in high school) an athletic nerd. He was a star quarterback, and an intelligent student. Having a promising career in high school football AND great grades? I find it hard to believe Eddie didn't have some sort of scholarship to help get by in college.
 
There was an Ask Greg thread?

Dammit! I never knew that.
 
The more I think about it, this episode felt repetitive.

The ShakesPearean intros felt like Flash's birthday wishes.

JJJ demanding something in number point number seconds and "not the point whats the point here's the point" line probably ain't his catch-phrase so it felt repetitive. Which is a shame cuz this was his first episode this season and his material feels stale.

Peter's "With great power..." line getting cut off again. Also Hobie's but it's kind of funnier when it happens to him, like a running joke.

Venom's obsession's relatively the same but there's a fun twist this go around. And maybe I'm alone here, but the "Bro" thing is growing on me. At first it felt a little forced, but now it's funny in an ironic way.

sPidey's got an imposter!

Fight at the museum.

Son goes crazy.
 
yea i bet phil would be hobby's voice if we ever get to hear him. I wonder whos idea it was to not have him speak/get interupted every time he is about to speak.
 
It seems every week, the start of my review and many others for an episode of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN starts the same. Praise for the series thus far. Astonishment that in an era where nearly everyone dismisses a first season or even two of medocrity from a TV series, the excuse is always, "It may get better as it goes along, look at ______", that SS-M has been excellent since the pilot and really hasn't slipped in quality much at all even 19 episodes in. And then the question of whether this episode adds to that, and the answer is usually "yes".

Honestly, this is a series that averages an A- at worst and usually can nail A and A+ episodes and make it look easy. It did so by the pilot, the end of the first season, and this second season, I dare say, is looking even better than the first, because there is less to set up. Fewer origins, more reactions and developments. More of a tense and flowing storyline starting from the season debut with Peter looking for the missing Brock. There also, at least within the last two episodes, of trying to merge two plots into one episode. Last week was developing the Brock subplot while doing a story of redemption for Sandman.

This week merely showcases how the production crew doesn't dismiss the little things, how they put more nuance into the simple things, even for a "children's" superhero cartoon show. From playing on themes of betrayal and loss to intersplicing every act in the episode with characters quoting from famous plays, this episode like many has much to catch for the viewer, and much to appreciate. Unlike WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, which often is busy providing great trees and not a forest, SS-M often always gives you a full jungle.

This episode isn't as good as some of the other's this season, and like last week's episode, the B-Plot all but overshadows the A-plot, but it still is a very impressive episode that I found myself enjoying a lot and emotionally reacting to, which is the mark of a good show.

At Midtown High, new drama teacher John Devereaux is assembling the annual school play, and virtually all of the characters aside for Peter try out for it, and their "auditions" provide a context for this episode's acts as well as future things I imagine. Harry Osborn's bit was especially chilling. They all worked for various reasons, aside for Sally Avril's played by Grey DeLisle. Sometimes Avril has a funny line, but more often than not she is annoying, and in this episode her every line was almost like scratches on a chalkboard. It is intentional, as she is a stock vapid cheerleader, but she could tuck it back a tad. Devereaux of course in the comics was a crazed man who became obsessed with MJ, and in this show, MJ's audition is of course the one he likes the most. Darn it, Wiesman & Co., you know how it is done.

Further proof of that is the mergence of a classic 60's ASM story with the modern arc with Eddie Brock/Venom returning to form. We quickly pop into Dr. Curt Conners' lab, where Peter and Gwen are once again aiding the ex-Lizard as well as others in treating John Jameson, who is being doted on by his aggressive father, J. Jonah Jameson (both played by Daran Norris). Ol' JJ has been missed for most of this season, but this episode at least gives a decent reason for why he was missing; apparently his son John, the only person Jonah comes close to doting on, is ill. Having contracted weird alien "spores" while in space (which Jonah keeps calling "sporks"), which Gwen and Conners guess could be from a high gravity planet like Jupiter, are infecting John's body and making him stronger and denser, as well as effecting his moods. This was of course a classic story from the Lee & Ditko era that I never imagined would ever be animated, much less in the 21st century in the era of Venom and so on. My only quibble is that it does seem odd that all of a sudden we see John and he is mutating into a larger form; for a series that usually builds up any development, this is out of the blue, and it was a bit jarring. Naturally, you could also claim that John Jameson has been seen several times last season, and we learned enough to know his normal personality. That much is true. John is a "real American hero", a successful astronaut. He had just returned from a space mission which, inadvertently, brought the alien symbiote to Earth that created Venom. Despite being close with his father, John did not share his hatred of Spider-Man, even aiding him in a fight against the Green Goblin once (and urging his father to credit Spider-Man with their rescue). He also has a sense of humor, which he uses many times throughout his ordeal in the beginning.

Galloway's design of "The Jupiter Suit" is terrific; a classic update of Steve Ditko's original design, and quite frankly, made for an action figure, but in a good way. The added touch of the "heartbeat" moniter over his chest was a nice touch and worked well in animation. And that is part of what I love about this show; despite taking characters and ideas from over 40 years of history, they find ways to establish the core of the Lee & Ditko years, which were the backbone of the franchise. Normally a mundane little adventure story, this episode really makes the idea of the Jupiter Spore empowered John Jameson, or "Col. Jupiter" as his father dubs him, really work. It especially does because Peter Parker gets to witness the birth of another superhuman, but unlike some of the others, he knows John Jameson to be a noble man and starts trying to influence his birth as a superhero. His father Jonah, on the other hand, quickly takes advantage of the situation to try to pit Col. Jupiter against Spidey.

Spider-Man has his own problems. Having been reunited with his symbiote, Venom is out to ruin Spider-Man's good name by posing as his "black costume" form and robbing criminals of their loot, as well as webbing up police officers who try to intervene. JJ is of course thrilled at the story, but Peter is naturally appalled that he is being framed for crimes, again. His "Please be Chameloan" mental quip was great, a good way to bridge the episodes. Spider-Man quickly runs afoul of Venom, who proceeds to pummel him and lay in his vow to make the city and everyone Peter cares about "hate him as much as we do". And that is always what it has been about with Venom; the Green Goblin was a typical super-criminal ganglord who made it personal only after many schemes were thwarted by Spider-Man. Venom, on the other hand, was always about personal revenge against Spider-Man for his own personal tragedy and sins committed against him, whether real, imagined, or exaggerated. The fight between Venom and Spider-Man was short and sweet, ending quickly after the duel sparks a fire of a nearby apartment complex, which Spider-Man flees to rescue.

Fire, of course, in the comics is one of the weaknesses of the symbiote, the second being sound. Most cartoons have shied away from the fire aspect since network censors are often not eager to have characters shooting fire at each other; I am amazed the oppressive FoxKids in the early 90's allowed the X-MEN to have Pyro within the first season. Neither the 90's SPIDER-MAN cartoon nor the terrible SPIDER-MAN: UNLIMITED mentioned the symbiote having any weakness beyond sound/sonic waves. Venom makes sure to keep a safe distance from the fire, so I am curious if this show has found a way around that.

I read some reviews at Toonzone that criticized some of the writing between Spider-Man and Venom by claiming it is usually too "impersonal" in fight sequences, that Venom acts like "any other villain". I humbly disagree. Firstly, Venom (Ben Diskin) must call Peter "bro" like he used to in Season One at least three or four times in mid-battle here. There is one point where Spider-Man dismisses Venom by going, "I have some actual human beings to rescue" which sounded quite personal. But the point I seem to be getting is that when old friends have become enemies, sometimes there isn't some melodrama about one wanting to "win" the other over or "explain" things. Peter did look for Brock, but it wasn't until now that he revealed himself beyond glimpses. The moment, practically, that Brock was originally empowered, he went after Aunt May, and endangered Gwen in front of half the city. He does nothing but endanger people and proclaim how much he hates Spider-Man. Frankly, Spidey holding back and pleading with him would be dumb and naive, and I for one am glad that this Peter Parker isn't the whiner of USM, but someone who knows when it is time to be serious, or to be impersonal and professional, even against a former surrogate brother. Peter seperated Brock from the costume once, but he obviously has reclaimed it and has hooked into it more than Peter did.

I actually thought about this next point after watching the commentary for SPIDER-MAN 3 for some reason; in this cartoon, the symbiote literally feeds and produced negativity. It would amp up Peter's doubts and feelings of insults and whatnot and heighten that into aggression. For Peter, though, that is out of character, and he was able to beat it by, basically, flooding the alien's mind with the positive influences in his life, all his friends and family. It was so potent that Spider-Man literally TKO'd the alien by tricking it into trying to remerge with him in last season's finale. He flooded the alien with his own morals, responsibility, and positive connections to other people, which showed he didn't need the embrace of the alien. Eddie Brock, on the other hand, really connected to no one but Peter. He was pals with Gwen and Harry, and did care about May, but they were all Peter's friends and family. He had none of his own and, maybe, clung to Peter to sort of rub off on his life, gain some of those positives. Perhaps Brock had been a symbiote in his own way to Parker, protecting him and offering his aid in exchange for getting to be one of the family with him. When it seemed that Parker was betraying him, that hit deep, and Brock isn't especially forgiving or considerate when he is emotional. He had NO positive reinforcement to hammer the alien with. I doubt he even wanted to. All Brock has is the alien; he was acting like Gollum without it. The alien has poisoned Brock's mind, and Brock was more than willing in exchange for all the power he needs to destroy the only person he connected with, who in his mind betrayed him. Brock's crazy, but I don't think it is as random or obligatory as some claim. Hell, I think this show has handled Venom better than a lot of writers in past cartoons, the movies, and the comics have treated him in years.

Venom is also smart and cunning here, in a way. The idea of posing as Black Costume Spider-Man, without the teeth and with that redesign, is pretty good, as well as what comes later.

Spider-Man gets help in saving the apartment building's residents by Col. Jupiter, who still has John's feelings of Spider-Man's heroism and the pair make a good team for the rescue. They gave Jupiter some interesting musical cues and sound effects, as well as some veiled references to Superman. Spider-Man, in one humorous bit, even saves a parrot from the inferno. Things get tense when the armored truck driver blames Spider-Man for starting the fire in the first place. Spidey naturally notes that he had "no time to change costumes" to prove his innocence, and that is when things go downhill for the budding Col. Jupiter's superhero career. He asks Spider-Man to remain behind and explain things to the police, and outright tries to force him to stay. John at that point wasn't convinced of Spider-Man's guilt, but when Spidey fled and even kind of dropped John into the pavement (while cracking jokes), that quickly got John to side with his father's Spider-hatred, especially with the spores effecting his personality.

The sad irony of course was that John's suggestion might have worked out in the end; when Jameson storms into Capt. George Stacy's office to offer his son's services (as well as berate him for not having a full APB on Spider-Man), Stacy was smart enough to piece together that Spider-Man was being impersonated. While it did help that Spidey saved his daughter, he used evidence and common sense to convince even Jonah that he may be wrong on this one. It was something I especially enjoyed considering I remembered the utter foolishness of the second season of the 90's Spider-Man cartoon where Morbius was confused for Spider-Man by the police and the media simply because he could climb buildings. MORBIUS! A pale vampire man in a black leather trench and greasy mullet! Without even a mask! It was atrocious! At least here I appreciate that Clancy Brown's Stacy is a rational and calm captain, not one who gives way to fits of hysteria. Unfortunately, by then Venom has egged John on, and gotten him into a full rage against Spider-Man. While Venom took advantage of the situation, frankly Spider-Man was a bit wrong in not at least trying to talk to the police with John as a spokesman for him. I understood why, of course; they might of course inquire about his identity, seek to capture him regardless, and of course what 16 year old New York high school student fully trusts the police, but in a way it was Spidey's reaction that got that ball started. Of course, with the spores making John more mentally unstable, Col. Jupiter turning against Spider-Man may have been inevitable.

This leads to a fight in, naturally, the Planetarium, where Col. Jupiter is able to hold his own against Spider-Man with brute strength, until Spider-Man recalls that Conners had "limited success" in destroying the spores with electricity, and tries a high dose against John, which manages to zap him into unconsciousness and seemingly depower him. Unfortunately, John is left a raving lunatic without his super-powers and is stuck on the same wing at Ravencroft as Electro (who apparently has completely buried his "Max Dillon" persona). It was rough seeing the former suave astronaut an unshaven lunatic begging for power. The animation was good here, capturing JJ's turmoil without too many somber lines being needed, and of course giving him all the motive he would need to take his war against the web-slinger to a higher level, perhaps via funding Spider-Slayers or, of course, the Scorpian.

There is of course high school drama. Gwen starts to take her dating of Harry more serious, at least because Liz still seems into Peter; Harry, however, almost sees Gwen's status as his girlfriend as a measure of success to earn his father's pride more than a young woman to cherish (much as Peter is more or less only into Liz because she is a hot cheerleader who adores him for once). Flash Thompson finds himself enamored by Sha Shan, played by Kelly Hu (believe it or not), who "has a brain" and is "immune to the Flash", as Eugene puts it. Despite being able to "get" any cheerleader he wants, Sha Shan appears to be a genuine target of Flash's attention, and I must say Season 2 has added a bit to his character, smoothing him over from being a typical jock leader, a process that began by the end of Season 1 when it was he, of all people, who got Peter to realize what the black costume was turning him into. In the comics Flash and Peter would become friends (sort of), and I like seeing this process build. Gwen had few lines here, but the animation managed to capture her subtle body language and face reactions about her situation enough that it wasn't especially needed to make the point.

The episode ends with the mother of all cliffhangers; Venom bursting through a full staff meeting with Jonah, Peter, Betty and Robbie and announcing that Peter Parker IS Spider-Man! Talk about building anticipation for next episode! Again, I like how Venom is deliberately using Peter's life against him, from helping to push John Jameson against him to utilizing his job's anti-Spidey hysteria against him. Even if Jonah is slow to believe it, simply someone making such an accusation in front of him will make Peter's life more complicated. It also explains why the next episode synopsis claims Peter may spend some time in a police cruiser.

This of course brings up the idea of Venom "really" making Peter Parker's identity public. Normally, that would be suicide for the character; Marvel had Spider-Man unmask for CIVIL WAR, and wrote themselves into a complete corner with that idea within a year or less. ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN has almost done the same, having so many people unmask or be told Peter's identity that it is secret only to the general public and not any of Peter's cast, which worked for a while but quickly got boring and unrealistic. Spider-Man works with a secret identity, and his dilemma, at least in high school, is always made more suspense that he has no one to confide in. I could buy, say, an homage to USM #13, only swapping "Brainy Jane" for Gwen, but a full public reveal would tear down a lot of the show's mystique. I doubt the show would go that far for very long without a way out, though, so for now the suspence of the storyline is thrilling.

While perhaps not as action packed as a fight against Sandman or Dr. Octopus, I genuinely felt sorry for John Jameson, who was similar to Peter in a way, an otherwise decent and upstanding person given super-powers, but for a variety of seasons had to fall from that height. There is a part of me that despite it all feels that Spidey mishandled the situation a bit, albeit for a reasonable reason; it reminds me of how I thought Batman completely mishandled the situation with Clayface in the B:TAS episode "Mudslide". All Hagin wanted was to become a normal man again; sure, he stole money and chemicals for it, but at the very least Batman could have waited until Clayface was "cured" before seeking to apprehend him for his crimes; instead Batman interupts the process, dumps Clayface into a river and earns the villain's increased vengeance that follows Batman all the way to the Justice League. If Peter had more faith in John sticking up for him or for some meeting with the police to filter back to Capt. Stacy, who has usually cut him the benefit of the doubt before, maybe it wouldn't have been so easy for Venom to push Jupiter over the edge. I can understand Spider-Man of course not entrusting his fate to the NYPD and the son of his media nemesis, but it is a shame it had to play out that way. Col. Jupiter had a good design, and it would be cool if he returned at some point in another season as a psuedo ally, like Sandman might be.

As usual, an excellent episode that leaves us with one heck of an episode 20 coming up!
 
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One minor correction to that review, when you referenced "Mudslide" you made the common mistake that the process Hagen was undergoing at the end was to cure him. It wasn't, it was to stabilize and augment his powers this making him into basically Super-Clayface. Batman was very right to stop the experiment.
 
Fire, of course, in the comics is one of the weaknesses of the symbiote, the second being sound. Most cartoons have shied away from the fire aspect since network censors are often not eager to have characters shooting fire at each other; I am amazed the oppressive FoxKids in the early 90's allowed the X-MEN to have Pyro within the first season. Neither the 90's SPIDER-MAN cartoon nor the terrible SPIDER-MAN: UNLIMITED mentioned the symbiote having any weakness beyond sound/sonic waves.

The dudes who first used the sonic blaster on the symbiote also tried a flame thrower and the Symbiote had the same cruise control as with sonic waves. They didn't outright say it was a weakness, but 7 year old me interpreted it that way...
 
that episode was a 10 out of 10. if buying the dvd helps wiseman sign season 3 then I will definately fork out the money...when they can be bothered to bring out the season boxset :o
 
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