BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - Part 21

[rogbngp]

Another thing about MoS's Jonathan that I have come to appreciate is that what appears to be Jonathan's over-anxiousness about Clark's powers (especially to those fans accustomed to the traditional Superman portrayal) is pretty much borne out by the film's end--and will continue in an even bigger way in BvS.

This may be a bit of a stretch in terms of reading symbolism... But since we do have some clear Christ-like symbols in the film for Kal, it is at least intriguing to note that Jonathan is "taken up by a whirlwind'. It is probably just coincidental but this is the fate of the prophet Elijah. Not making a 1:1 by any means with the bible, but using a looser sort of interpretation of archetypal symbols that is the biblical fate of an important "prophet." I'm sure Jonathan is intended as an ordinary man. But nevertheless, Fate has selected him with a grave and momentous responsibility and it isn't hard to imagine him having many a sleepless night pondering the concerns he shares with Clark. Perhaps praying about it and seeking guidance. Who sent Clark here? For what purpose? What was the alien race's intentions in doing this? What does all this mean for humankind's religious beliefs?

I mean, there is a sense in which Jonathan's vision about how the world will receive Clark actually is prophetic. I hope I'm not getting too carried away with symbolism and reading meanings in that aren't there. But my sense is that Snyder is meticulous and painterly in the construction of his films, particularly with the use of symbolic archetypal imagery. When you watch something like this very thought-provoking analysis of visual symbols throughout MoS, if the video is on target, then one has to wonder:

[YT]IdckKLhIN-E[/YT]

Or I could be totally off base with an over-reaching speculation here.

 

[craigaat]

Sounds about right to me, mate. Is it too much of a stretch to say Clark was a carpenter after the work he did on that guy's truck?

 

[rogbngp]

Sounds about right to me, mate. Is it too much of a stretch to say Clark was a carpenter after the work he did on that guy's truck?

Lol! Well, like anything else it takes time to build up a skill. He's still learning.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Good lord, why try to make some bad writing, Jonathan's death, be more than what it was....bad writing. That's all it was, move on and learn from it. Trying to find some deeper meaning is like George Lucas defending the prequels.

 

[rogbngp]

Bah, that is intellectually lazy to me.

More seriously, though, I enjoy creative imagination about what things potentially mean.

 

[DarkKnight]

Good lord, why try to make some bad writing, Jonathan's death, be more than what it was....bad writing. That's all it was, move on and learn from it. Trying to find some deeper meaning is like George Lucas defending the prequels.

It's a matter of opinion. Some read deeper into it than others. Bad writing? Maybe to you but not to others.

 

[Black Narcissus]

 

[Herolee10]

Gotta admit, after nearly two years of seeing that one final shot of Reporter Clark from "MOS" overused so many times in these forums, I'm glad that we have more choices available now when it comes to displaying imagery of Clark Kent: Mild Mannered Reporter for the Daily Planet.

 

[Jekecy]

Seeing them side-by-side, MOS had a better disguise. The lack of clean-cut hair style adds to the honest youthfulness that you wouldn't attribute to a god-like superhero.

Cavill's stern expression, posture, and overall polished look really does strike a very close resemblance to the picture perfect image people have of Supes. However considering the context of the scene I could concede this is perhaps Clark not being on guard and is letting his true self peek through.

 

[titansupes]

The one on the bottom left... Perfect.

 

[PopeAdrian37th]

Seeing them side-by-side, MOS had a better disguise. The lack of clean-cut hair style adds to the honest youthfulness that you wouldn't attribute to a god-like superhero.

Cavill's stern expression, posture, and overall polished look really does strike a very close resemblance to the picture perfect image people have of Supes. However considering the context of the scene I could concede this is perhaps Clark not being on guard and is letting his true self peek through.

Agreed. It almost makes you wonder if Bruce's comment about freaks dressed like clowns (while also having it's Joker reference) is poking at Clark for the Superman suit, or if he's calling Superman a freak for trying to dress like a normal person.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Bruce literally LOOKS down on Clark as he says it.

I'm betting he knows, and by using that freak line, he's deliberately saying that Superman is no better than the Joker and that glance is intentionally telling Clark that Bruce knows his identity.

Prompting Clark's look of concern.

And Bruce's look of intense hatred, almost smiling at the thought of beating Superman. It's obvious that he is looking forward to this fight.

Those two shots say a lot about the characters, IMHO.

Clark never wants to kill again, and is probably afraid at what Batman could do to his friends (and maybe afraid of newly discovered Kryptonite)

Bruce wants to end Superman once and for all. 'This may be the only thing I do that matters."

I'm hoping that the smackdown can help Superman learn there is consequenes to his rashness in MOS (though I think blaming Superman for most of the damage doesn't take into account Zod's experience and the World Engine) and that Batman can learn that even powerful people can be motivated by good (something he doesn't understand as he himself is motivated by retribution)

 

[rogbngp]

Bruce literally LOOKS down on Clark as he says it.

I'm betting he knows, and by using that freak line, he's deliberately saying that Superman is no better than the Joker and that glance is intentionally telling Clark that Bruce knows his identity.

Prompting Clark's look of concern.

And Bruce's look of intense hatred, almost smiling at the thought of beating Superman. It's obvious that he is looking forward to this fight.

Those two shots say a lot about the characters, IMHO.

Clark never wants to kill again, and is probably afraid at what Batman could do to his friends (and maybe afraid of newly discovered Kryptonite)

Bruce wants to end Superman once and for all. 'This may be the only thing I do that matters."

I'm hoping that the smackdown can help Superman learn there is consequenes to his rashness in MOS (though I think blaming Superman for most of the damage doesn't take into account Zod's experience and the World Engine) and that Batman can learn that even powerful people can be motivated by good (something he doesn't understand as he himself is motivated by retribution)

I think that when Clark and Bruce meet at Lex's charity event there is built-in tension for that moment because Superman has already had the run-in with Batman in which he smashes the Batmobile and rips its doors off. In that scene he will be 'having a friendly chat' with Batman telling him to knock off the vigilantism. I do think their meeting at the party is the first time they have met out of superhero uniforms, though.

I have my own theory as to why Superman has this 'little talk' with Batman, which I'd guess has roughly a coin flip's chance, we'll see.

 

[tomk]

I liked how Jonathan was handled as a character, but ultimately felt the decision to kill him off was kind of bland.

bland?

Please explain.

 

[jokesonm3]

That tornado needed a little Mustard.

 

[blumatic]

They should have never have killed off Jonathan Kent. Clark should have saved him. And the conversation that ensued after would have been a great tool for character development for both characters.

(Clark could use his powers with the cover of the tornado)

 

[BH/HHH]

That's you wanting Jonathan left alive because it was your preference, him dying made more sense to the story.

We also have no idea if Clark has super speed at that age in the movie AND his father is telling him not to use his powers infront of people. When he decides to move forward his Father says no, therefore he hesitates to stop what he's doing. I'm sure had he had time to think begire his Dad said no he would have still moved to save him but in that moment when his Father says no it's seconds. Also remember he's a teenager not a fully fledged Superman yet stop holding him to other versions.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

People really don't want to reckon with the load Jonathon Kent had and how it was put on Clark's shoulders the day he died. This is grand, mythological drama that when taken seriously makes you realize how far reaching the impact of the mere existence of Superman would have, not even taking into account his actions but just his presence on Earth. Now add in his power, people's reactions to it, the question of what Clark can or should do with his power and influence, how humanity as a whole and individuals can or should or would act... Jon Kent had a near infinite amount of needles to thread that had a range from "How do I raise a child to adulthood who can never be physically harmed to be a good person when he can't understand human physical pain?" to "When Clark finally reveals himself, are the ramifications of that on his head, or on the heads of human beings reacting to him?"

Plus... It's just meaty drama, that obviously wasn't some tied up in a nice bow but boring platitude. Even in the Donner film, Pa doesn't have all the answers. He seemed as played by Ford, as a simple man that like Costner's Kent, had a lot on his plate. Pa in 1979 seemed to be muddling through quite a bit himself. He couldn't tell Clark WHAT his reason for being on Earth was, just what he felt the reason WASN'T.

But... This is such well worn territory around here... Maybe best to just let people vent. In the end all the online discussion about how people dislike X,Y,Z in MOS actually probably prompts more to see it to judge for themselves than not and all that does is spread the film wider and wider. So... Keep up with the kvetching of a film close to 3 years old that supposedly you can't stand but can't shut up about either is what I would say to those who didn't like it. In it's way it still helps the film and it's story and it's in a way also going to help BvS.

 

[superboy13]

We also have no idea if Clark has super speed at that age in the movie AND his father is telling him not to use his powers infront of people. When he decides to move forward his Father says no, therefore he hesitates to stop what he's doing. I'm sure had he had time to think begire his Dad said no he would have still moved to save him but in that moment when his Father says no it's seconds. Also remember he's a teenager not a fully fledged Superman yet stop holding him to other versions.

As great as Henry was in that scene, I always kind of wished they'd used Dylan Sprayberry for it. Clark didn't look 17, he looked, at least 25, which didn't help, in my opinion, sell the idea that he was a conflicted teenager. He looked like a man.

 

[BH/HHH]

As great as Henry was in that scene, I always kind of wished they'd used Dylan Sprayberry for it. Clark didn't look 17, he looked, at least 25, which didn't help, in my opinion, sell the idea that he was a conflicted teenager. He looked like a man.

Hmm maybe, I think they had to have one scene with Cavill and Costner though.

 

[rogbngp]

People really don't want to reckon with the load Jonathon Kent had and how it was put on Clark's shoulders the day he died. This is grand, mythological drama that when taken seriously makes you realize how far reaching the impact of the mere existence of Superman would have, not even taking into account his actions but just his presence on Earth. Now add in his power, people's reactions to it, the question of what Clark can or should do with his power and influence, how humanity as a whole and individuals can or should or would act... Jon Kent had a near infinite amount of needles to thread that had a range from "How do I raise a child to adulthood who can never be physically harmed to be a good person when he can't understand human physical pain?" to "When Clark finally reveals himself, are the ramifications of that on his head, or on the heads of human beings reacting to him?"

Plus... It's just meaty drama, that obviously wasn't some tied up in a nice bow but boring platitude. Even in the Donner film, Pa doesn't have all the answers. He seemed as played by Ford, as a simple man that like Costner's Kent, had a lot on his plate. Pa in 1979 seemed to be muddling through quite a bit himself. He couldn't tell Clark WHAT his reason for being on Earth was, just what he felt the reason WASN'T.

But... This is such well worn territory around here... Maybe best to just let people vent. In the end all the online discussion about how people dislike X,Y,Z in MOS actually probably prompts more to see it to judge for themselves than not and all that does is spread the film wider and wider. So... Keep up with the kvetching of a film close to 3 years old that supposedly you can't stand but can't shut up about either is what I would say to those who didn't like it. In it's way it still helps the film and it's story and it's in a way also going to help BvS.

Yeah, this is all part of Snyder's reinvention of the Superman mythology, which is explained pretty well in this featurette. And I think it is vital to understanding the film. It's valid for some fans to feel that they didn't want to see such a reinvention of the myth. It's okay--that's their taste. But they should at least accept in all fairness that many other fans do like the fact that the myth was reinvented (on general principles, as compelling drama), and appreciate the way it was reinvented specifically by Snyder in MoS.

As Snyder has said,

I never felt like a [superhero] movie should exist in the real world before, but I feel like Superman should... All the Superman movies that have been made exist in some weird stylized world where everyone's, like, apple pie and Chevrolet and it's... like the American Dream in a weird way... [T]he thing I find interesting is... being able to release the character from that world, where he's been stuck and shackled, and bring him to our world and see what he does.

And MoS's depiction of Jonathan Kent is all about that, I think. Fate has selected Jonathan Kent with a grave and momentous responsibility. As mentioned above, it isn't hard to imagine Jonathan having many a sleepless night pondering the concerns he shares with Clark in the scene in which he tells him he came from another world. Who sent Clark here? What was the alien race's intentions in doing this? Above and beyond that is there a grander purpose (is it party of God's design)? What does all this mean for humankind's religious beliefs? I can imagine Jonathan even praying about it and seeking guidance.

At first I saw MoS's Jonathan as a bit of a handwringer, and maybe even a bit neurotic in his worries. But his concerns will be borne out, I think. As I've re-watched MoS several times I've come to see Jonathan as character with almost biblical overtones (archetypally speaking) who is struggling to make sense of what all this means, and takes the responsibility as seriously as can be. It's part of Snyder's project to re-imagine the Superman story in terms of what it would more likely look like in the real world that we actually inhabit.

 

[superboy13]

Hmm maybe, I think they had to have one scene with Cavill and Costner though.

Yeah, I can see that. But Christopher Reeve didn't share any scenes with Glenn Ford and that turned out alright.

 

[Rowsdower!]

As great as Henry was in that scene, I always kind of wished they'd used Dylan Sprayberry for it. Clark didn't look 17, he looked, at least 25, which didn't help, in my opinion, sell the idea that he was a conflicted teenager. He looked like a man.

Yeah, I kinda agree with that. Cavill brought the pain in that scene, but I think it would have played better with a younger actor because he would have felt more like a scared, conflicted kid.

 

[elgaz]

Bruce literally LOOKS down on Clark as he says it.

I'm betting he knows, and by using that freak line, he's deliberately saying that Superman is no better than the Joker and that glance is intentionally telling Clark that Bruce knows his identity.

Prompting Clark's look of concern.

And Bruce's look of intense hatred, almost smiling at the thought of beating Superman. It's obvious that he is looking forward to this fight.

Those two shots say a lot about the characters, IMHO.

Clark never wants to kill again, and is probably afraid at what Batman could do to his friends (and maybe afraid of newly discovered Kryptonite)

Bruce wants to end Superman once and for all. 'This may be the only thing I do that matters."

I'm hoping that the smackdown can help Superman learn there is consequenes to his rashness in MOS (though I think blaming Superman for most of the damage doesn't take into account Zod's experience and the World Engine) and that Batman can learn that even powerful people can be motivated by good (something he doesn't understand as he himself is motivated by retribution)

I don't think Bruce knows at this stage.

We hear Clark introducing himself and nabbing Bruce for a few words, which implies that Bruce may have simply passed him on by had he not done so. I also think his reaction to the questions, and his criticism of the Daily Planet's coverage of Superman, are too blunt for someone who actually knows who Clark really is. I think the reference to freaks is actually a dig at the Daily Planet's favourable coverage of Superman (and thus indirectly referencing Clark also, as he is a representative of the DP) whilst also a bit of a subtle Joker reference.

I have an idea that Clark will reveal his own identity to Bruce later on in the film - whether it's as himself, or in Superman guise - as a gesture of trust and solidarity. And to show him that they're on the same side. Along with allowing Batman to hold onto some Kryptonite should he ever need it.

 

[Marz69]

I don't think Bruce knows at this stage.

We hear Clark introducing himself and nabbing Bruce for a few words, which implies that Bruce may have simply passed him on by had he not done so. I also think his reaction to the questions, and his criticism of the Daily Planet's coverage of Superman, are too blunt for someone who actually knows who Clark really is. I think the reference to freaks is actually a dig at the Daily Planet's favourable coverage of Superman (and thus indirectly referencing Clark also, as he is a representative of the DP) whilst also a bit of a subtle Joker reference.

I have an idea that Clark will reveal his own identity to Bruce later on in the film - whether it's as himself, or in Superman guise - as a gesture of trust and solidarity. And to show him that they're on the same side. Along with allowing Batman to hold onto some Kryptonite should he ever need it.

Yeah, I don't think either knows who either is at this point. Bruce likes Batman & Clark likes Superman. They establish that here. And since Clark has the power of the pen. "nobody cares about clark kent taking on the bat man" Bruce resents how he uses it when depicting Batman & Superman in the newspaper. I agree, Bruce's clown comments was a dig against Clark's team (of being a superman fan).

I also don't think superman and batman met before this because I don't think clark knows bruce is batman here. And I suspect that when they do meet, Superman peeks under batman's hood.

I do think one person knows who both is at this point and that's Lex.